is mental health suicide prevention considered clinical experience?

[argama]

Hi everyone I was wondering if working for a suicide prevention hotline volunteer center would be considered as "clincal experience"? Or is that just normal community service?

The place is a mental health services center so I was wondering.

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[TheBossDoctor]

Eh if you're working for a hotline then it isn't clinical experience since there is no direct patient contact (just phone convo). Nice community service stuff though.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Hi everyone I was wondering if working for a suicide prevention hotline volunteer center would be considered as "clincal experience"? Or is that just normal community service?

The place is a mental health services center so I was wondering.

Eh if you're working for a hotline then it isn't clinical experience since there is no direct patient contact (just phone convo). Nice community service stuff though.

100% clinical experience

 

[pyrrion89]

Hi everyone I was wondering if working for a suicide prevention hotline volunteer center would be considered as "clincal experience"? Or is that just normal community service?

The place is a mental health services center so I was wondering.

Seems like a gray area to me. LizzyM says if you can smell the patient, it's clinical. Nonetheless it does seem way more clinical than the people who hand out water to family members at a nursing unit.

 

[pietachok]

A suicide prevention hotline is probably staffed by volunteers who have a protocol as to what to say as opposed to medical/clinical training and the skills for differential diagnosis, so I'll say non-clinical. The primary goal of clinical experience is to validate that you know what a physician does and what patients go through -- this only shows one of those things, and partially at that.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

A suicide prevention hotline is probably staffed by volunteers who have a protocol as to what to say as opposed to medical/clinical training and the skills for differential diagnosis, so I'll say non-clinical. The primary goal of clinical experience is to validate that you know what a physician does and what patients go through -- this only shows one of those things, and partially at that.

Because stocking blankets and fetching ice chips is a lot of differential diagnosis?

 

[karayaa]

Because stocking blankets and fetching ice chips is a lot of differential diagnosis?

At least you're seeing how doctors work and interact with others, and you get to see/smell patients in addition to talking to people who are not patients (though they might be close).

 

[onelastpuff23]

Because stocking blankets and fetching ice chips is a lot of differential diagnosis?

I agree with you here. If Adcoms believe stocking blankets is more insightful into the life of a doctor than speaking to a suicidal person then their assessment needs to be revisited.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

At least you're seeing how doctors work and interact with others, and you get to see/smell patients in addition to talking to people who are not patients (though they might be close).

Except with a suicide hotline you are actually talking to acutely ill psychiatric patients instead of seeing someone else interact with them.

 

[manders31]

I would say most will not count it as clinical experience but it will stand out as different so you might get asked about it in an interview

 

[Aerus]

We need to set a definition here. A patient is a person who is seeking medical care. While talking on a suicide hotline is a great experience, I would be reluctant to rely on that as a "clinical exposure", since the people calling aren't exactly seeking medical attention.

Yes, stocking bedrooms isn't a great clinical experience, but it still is, since you're around patients.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

psychiatric attention IS medical attention

 

[argama]

wow thanks everyone! Didn't expect to see such a strong showing of responses & views.

I am lacking in clinical experience in my opinion....50 hours at a hospital (like yeah answering patient calls & changing blankets & wheeling) and 100 hours caretaker for my grandmother who had Alzheimer's and eventually passed away.

I'm in my gap year, have a 3.62 gpa, 32 mcat (3rd try) and now working at a research lab full time. Applying next cycle. Trying to see if I should just volunteer at the hospital near my house where I am probably going to end up restocking shelves, pushing patients around, and changing sheets or if I should volunteer to become a counselor for a suicide prevention hotline. Or I'm looking into CRNA or EMT but using my EMT license might not be easy since where I live it's hard to find work on an ambulance (too many EMTs around)....

The suicide prevention thing is easier to get (b/c they need volunteers) and it's very interactive and intensive training. It sounds very interesting honestly and could probably be a good thing to talk about.

However, if it's going to be considered "only nonmedical" I don't know if I should do it and just end up pushing patient around and changing blankets and restocking shelves.

 

[karayaa]

psychiatric attention IS medical attention

Agreed. But are they seeking psychiatric attention or psychological attention? Are you saying they have a disease? Would you consider domestic violence/child abuse counseling psychiatric attention?
I admit I'm not familiar with the services that hotline volunteers provide. I don't know if its even considered counseling. Could someone provide a sample?

 

[karayaa]

wow thanks everyone! Didn't expect to see such a strong showing of responses & views.

I am lacking in clinical experience in my opinion....50 hours at a hospital (like yeah answering patient calls & changing blankets & wheeling) and 100 hours caretaker for my grandmother who had Alzheimer's and eventually passed away.

I'm in my gap year, have a 3.62 gpa, 32 mcat (3rd try) and now working at a research lab full time. Applying next cycle. Trying to see if I should just volunteer at the hospital near my house where I am probably going to end up restocking shelves, pushing patients around, and changing sheets or if I should volunteer to become a counselor for a suicide prevention hotline. Or I'm looking into CRNA or EMT but using my EMT license might not be easy since where I live it's hard to find work on an ambulance (too many EMTs around)....

The suicide prevention thing is easier to get (b/c they need volunteers) and it's very interactive and intensive training. It sounds very interesting honestly and could probably be a good thing to talk about.

However, if it's going to be considered "only nonmedical" I don't know if I should do it and just end up pushing patient around and changing blankets and restocking shelves.

WashU told me this weekend that they're not looking for a set number of hours of clinical experience. It's about quality rather than quantity. If you have enough to know that you want to be a doctor, and to have some idea of what a doctor's work is like, it's enough. Their opinion might not be shared by every med school, but they're a respectable school.
Are there free clinics close by, for immigants/homeless/etc? They usually provide the most experience. Can you volunteer/work as an EMT at concerts/amusement parks/events?
If the suicide prevention interests you, then do it. Don't worry about being nonmedical.
Or can you go deeper with research? Do more?
Can you go for both the hospital thing and this thing, and see which turns out better?

 

[argama]

alright i guess to clear up confusion this is what I was thinking of:

http://www.didihirsch.org/volunteer

They have a detailed description what volunteers do. So I guess....what kind of volunteer does it fall under?

 

[argama]

WashU told me this weekend that they're not looking for a set number of hours of clinical experience. It's about quality rather than quantity. If you have enough to know that you want to be a doctor, and to have some idea of what a doctor's work is like, it's enough. Their opinion might not be shared by every med school, but they're a respectable school.
Are there free clinics close by, for immigants/homeless/etc? They usually provide the most experience. Can you volunteer/work as an EMT at concerts/amusement parks/events?
If the suicide prevention interests you, then do it. Don't worry about being nonmedical.
Or can you go deeper with research? Do more?
Can you go for both the hospital thing and this thing, and see which turns out better?

Yes I agree the time I have spent was good but I feel like a lot of med schools I apply to will want to see something more than what I have. (I do have 100 hours shadowing but that's not volunteering).

There is a free clinic to help elderly near me but it's in a very well-off area...but I was thinking of it. I could also volunteer at a hospital where I used to work at but it was honestly not useful at all. Administrative, taking phone calls, secretary work. No matter who I ask if they wanted me to help out I felt like I was in the way more than helping.

Research I'm very set on. Close to 3 years and counting of basic sciences & clinical research.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

wow thanks everyone! Didn't expect to see such a strong showing of responses & views.

I am lacking in clinical experience in my opinion....50 hours at a hospital (like yeah answering patient calls & changing blankets & wheeling) and 100 hours caretaker for my grandmother who had Alzheimer's and eventually passed away.

I'm in my gap year, have a 3.62 gpa, 32 mcat (3rd try) and now working at a research lab full time. Applying next cycle. Trying to see if I should just volunteer at the hospital near my house where I am probably going to end up restocking shelves, pushing patients around, and changing sheets or if I should volunteer to become a counselor for a suicide prevention hotline. Or I'm looking into CRNA or EMT but using my EMT license might not be easy since where I live it's hard to find work on an ambulance (too many EMTs around)....

The suicide prevention thing is easier to get (b/c they need volunteers) and it's very interactive and intensive training. It sounds very interesting honestly and could probably be a good thing to talk about.

However, if it's going to be considered "only nonmedical" I don't know if I should do it and just end up pushing patient around and changing blankets and restocking shelves.

Don't fall into the easy premed trap of cookie-cutter meaningless ECs that check off boxes. SDN particularly loves to promulgate these ideas because they're easy and fit into heuristics. What you're doing right now is meaningful, and going upwards in responsibility within that particular realm is infinitely more interesting and insight-generating IMO than what I perceive 95% of "clinical volunteering" to be.

Agreed. But are they seeking psychiatric attention or psychological attention? Are you saying they have a disease? Would you consider domestic violence/child abuse counseling psychiatric attention?
I admit I'm not familiar with the services that hotline volunteers provide. I don't know if its even considered counseling. Could someone provide a sample?

Yes, suicidal ideation is by definition a psychiatric disease in need of emergency response. And yes, domestic violence/child abuse counseling is psychiatric attention in the sense that they are provided by psychiatrists and psychologists to assess emotional state and treat specific problems as they arise. (psychologists practice a subset of psychiatry). Frankly it seems to me most of you need to educate yourselves more on mental health, which is to be fair a problem that affects most people in our society, including myself prior to med school...

 

[Ismet]

While talking on a suicide hotline is a great experience, I would be reluctant to rely on that as a "clinical exposure", since the people calling aren't exactly seeking medical attention.

...of course they're seeking medical attention. Suicidal ideation is acute, and often the people who call these hotlines are at a breaking point and can't wait to see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Frankly it seems to me most of you need to educate yourselves more on mental health, which is to be fair a problem that affects most people in our society

This

 

[AlexMack12]

There's some sentiment possibly of mental health being regarded as lesser than physical health, which is a prevailing attitude in our culture as well as around the world. In psychiatry/psychology/clinical social work (and the people with these jobs are all considered "clinicians" who are trained to perform mental status exams, diagnose patients as per the 5-Axis DSM template, and yes, treat patients, although only MDs and NPs can manage and prescribe medication), the clinical aspect involves talking- rarely, even for the doctors, any type of physical exam. Therapeutic interventions can be staged without being close enough to smell the patient (a great metric for considering something clinical but favors physical health experiences).

That being said, it depends on exactly what you did. Some crisis hotlines have multiple lines, with some workers trained to link people in need to resources (I.e., Meals on Wheels, services for the visually impaired, homeless shelters ) because a number of people call crisis hotlines looking for help in that regard. Others triage the calls and determine the caller's purpose and transfer them to the appropriate line. Still others are speaking to people in imminent crisis and assessing their suicidal ideation/intent/plan and possibly calling the police to dispatch an ambulance to the person's location for emergency care, such as when someone endorses suicidal ideation with intent and plan and requires immediate emergency inpatient psychiatric care or at least further assessment in an emergency room.

If it's the last scenario that represents your work, it's clinical, since you are using skills you obtained from training to assess a patient's mental status and are providing immediate crisis counseling or possibly recommending further care. That is clinical work as part of the duties of mental health clinicians regardless of their specific discipline. Anything else would be still be just as important but would be more non clinical community service/volunteer work.

And I'm going to agree with some of the posters who made a point that mental health isn't often highly regarded on these message board the way physical health is. But when you stop to consider how the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention estimates suicide rates of male physicians to be up to 150% higher and female physicians 400% higher than for their non physician counterparts, it might be a good idea for those in the medical community to acknowledge mental health as a very important part of our lives.

 

[argama]

these are all really great answers and insights! I posted the link above if you want to know what I was asking about. http://www.didihirsch.org/volunteer

I of course haven't started it yet but I know a friend who is doing that next year and saw them at a mental health panel event once. I am really leaning towards it but some in my family and a mentor are pushing me to do EMT/CRNA/Clinical Care Extender instead.

 

[pietachok]

...of course they're seeking medical attention. Suicidal ideation is acute, and often the people who call these hotlines are at a breaking point and can't wait to see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

To me, medical does not equal clinical (e.g. selling medical equipment would be medical but not clinical; working in a pharmacy could be medical but not clinical; working as a 911 operator would be medical but not clinical). I think this would be a very respectable experience and indicate significant exposure to mental health issues, which I consider very, very important. However, it is not in the spirit of the clinical exposure "requirement," because it does not expose you to the doctor/hospital/patient interaction at all.

When you're doing all that fluff like getting ice chips and stocking blankets, you're supposed to be talking to patients and observing the general goings on of the hospital.

Would you consider working as a 911 operator clinical exposure? (I wouldn't). In many ways this is the similar to a 911 operator but better tailored to mental health scenarios -- you talk to the patients and encourage them to maintain their safety and seek qualified medical assistance based on what is probably to a large extent a written algorithm (It can't be much more than that or a pre-med couldn't do it).

 

[Aerus]

psychiatric attention IS medical attention

...of course they're seeking medical attention. Suicidal ideation is acute, and often the people who call these hotlines are at a breaking point and can't wait to see a psychiatrist or psychologist.



This

No one is arguing that psychiatric ideation isn't a disease. But seeking counseling and seeking medical attention are two different things. The person isn't seeking a professional to diagnose and prescribe medicine for their depression or anxiety disorder etc. They're calling for support and emotional advice.

I mean, there are many adcoms I've talked to who count volunteering at a crisis hotline as a great service experience but not a clinical experience. While there might be adcoms who do count this as clinical experience, I wouldn't risk only having this. It's better to play it safe and find a hospital/hospice/whatever to volunteer at in addition to having this.

 

[Goro]

If you're actually talking to people and counseling them, then yes.

Hi everyone I was wondering if working for a suicide prevention hotline volunteer center would be considered as "clincal experience"? Or is that just normal community service?

The place is a mental health services center so I was wondering.

 

[Ismet]

To me, medical does not equal clinical (e.g. selling medical equipment would be medical but not clinical; working in a pharmacy could be medical but not clinical; working as a 911 operator would be medical but not clinical). I think this would be a very respectable experience and indicate significant exposure to mental health issues, which I consider very, very important. However, it is not in the spirit of the clinical exposure "requirement," because it does not expose you to the doctor/hospital/patient interaction at all.

When you're doing all that fluff like getting ice chips and stocking blankets, you're supposed to be talking to patients and observing the general goings on of the hospital.

Would you consider working as a 911 operator clinical exposure? (I wouldn't). In many ways this is the similar to a 911 operator but better tailored to mental health scenarios -- you talk to the patients and encourage them to maintain their safety and seek qualified medical assistance based on what is probably to a large extent a written algorithm (It can't be much more than that or a pre-med couldn't do it).

Selling medical equipment wouldn't be clinical, but I would consider working in a pharmacy as clinical, of course depending on what you do. I volunteered in a hospital pharmacy for a couple years in high school...the pharmacist was there to counsel patients on medications, but I was the main person interacting with patients or their family members, getting their information, answering questions, etc. It's obviously not the "ideal" clinical exposure and I later moved on to other volunteer positions, but yeah, I still consider that to be clinical. It's patient interaction. I don't see why it makes a huge difference for the patient to be in a hospital bed or to be discharged and getting their meds on their way out. It's playing a role in their healthcare. Same with working with the crisis hotline - I consider it to be patient interaction if they're trained to counsel the caller. But I can definitely see that it walks a fine line between clinical and nonclinical, and I don't think it is sufficient for clinical exposure.

 

[Ismet]

No one is arguing that psychiatric ideation isn't a disease. But seeking counseling and seeking medical attention are two different things. The person isn't seeking a professional to diagnose and prescribe medicine for their depression or anxiety disorder etc. They're calling for support and emotional advice.

I mean, there are many adcoms I've talked to who count volunteering at a crisis hotline as a great service experience but not a clinical experience. While there might be adcoms who do count this as clinical experience, I wouldn't risk only having this. It's better to play it safe and find a hospital/hospice/whatever to volunteer at in addition to having this.

Apparently I can't multiquote on mobile.

Suicidal ideation. And in terms of mental health, yes, seeking counseling is seeking medical attention. I do agree that it's not sufficient for the clinical experience "requirement," but it's still clinical experience.

 

[aesculapian]

Applying next cycle. Trying to see if I should just volunteer at the hospital near my house where I am probably going to end up restocking shelves, pushing patients around, and changing sheets or if I should volunteer to become a counselor for a suicide prevention hotline. Or I'm looking into CRNA or EMT but using my EMT license might not be easy since where I live it's hard to find work on an ambulance (too many EMTs around)....

The suicide prevention thing is easier to get (b/c they need volunteers) and it's very interactive and intensive training. It sounds very interesting honestly and could probably be a good thing to talk about.

However, if it's going to be considered "only nonmedical" I don't know if I should do it and just end up pushing patient around and changing blankets and restocking shelves.

It seems to me like you're way more interested in the suicide prevention hotline/you'd rather not spend your time volunteering at the hospital, which I think is fine. Don't do something you don't care about! That just doesn't make sense.

BUT to play devil's advocate for a second, I don't think it's fair to write off "pushing patients around" as any less worthwhile of an activity. Same with changing blankets and restocking shelves. This isn't directed toward you, OP, or anyone specific, but as pre-meds I think we all crave a sense of responsibility and to be challenged and stimulated-- and I don't think there's anything wrong with that-- but we forget that taking a patient in a wheelchair where he/she/phe needs to go (and can't get to alone) is not any less important of a job, no matter how tiresome people sometimes think it is.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

No one is arguing that psychiatric ideation isn't a disease. But seeking counseling and seeking medical attention are two different things. The person isn't seeking a professional to diagnose and prescribe medicine for their depression or anxiety disorder etc. They're calling for support and emotional advice.

I mean, there are many adcoms I've talked to who count volunteering at a crisis hotline as a great service experience but not a clinical experience. While there might be adcoms who do count this as clinical experience, I wouldn't risk only having this. It's better to play it safe and find a hospital/hospice/whatever to volunteer at in addition to having this.

Dude honestly it's kind of obvious you don't know what you're talking about, vis-a-vis "psychiatric ideation."

If you're actually talking to people and counseling them, then yes.

/thread.

 

[lall]

Doctors of tomorrow who are saying counseling on a suicide hotline is not clinical experience? Mental health is such a neglected aspect of health, and I can see its not getting much better.

Thank you to those who are speaking to this issue in this thread. You give me hope.


EDIT: "psychiatric ideation" REALLY?! "The person isn't seeking a professional to diagnose and prescribe medicine for their depression or anxiety disorder etc. They're calling for support and emotional advice." Sorry, but I agree with RogueUnicorn. I want to give RogueUnicorn a hug. But you "aerus"---sorry dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[gtbROX]

Hi everyone I was wondering if working for a suicide prevention hotline volunteer center would be considered as "clincal experience"? Or is that just normal community service?

The place is a mental health services center so I was wondering.

Unless you work at a hospital or clinic (will have one of those words in its name) I wouldn't consider it clinical experience.

There's a difference between a "mental health clinic" and a "mental health hotline."

 

[Aerus]

Dude honestly it's kind of obvious you don't know what you're talking about, vis-a-vis "psychiatric ideation."


/thread.

Doctors of tomorrow who are saying counseling on a suicide hotline is not clinical experience? Mental health is such a neglected aspect of health, and I can see its not getting much better.

Thank you to those who are speaking to this issue in this thread. You give me hope.


EDIT: "psychiatric ideation" REALLY?! "The person isn't seeking a professional to diagnose and prescribe medicine for their depression or anxiety disorder etc. They're calling for support and emotional advice." Sorry, but I agree with RogueUnicorn. I want to give RogueUnicorn a hug. But you "aerus"---sorry dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, because you've never accidentally mis-typed a word. Sue me; I get distracted.

I'll repeat what I said. The question isn't whether mental health issues are real or not. Obviously they are. The question is whether suicide hotlines can be used as a "clinical experience" (note this is an arbitrarily defined term that does not encompass all of "health issues") on a medical school application. My answer was...I wouldn't risk not having some other hospital experience, purely based on what I've heard. Looking at the mixed responses in this thread, I'd say it's better to play it safe.

Furiously defending suicide ideation as an actual health problem when no one denied that it wasn't isn't really productive to the thread discussion -- med school apps.

 

[occams_razor]

Agreed. But are they seeking psychiatric attention or psychological attention? Are you saying they have a disease? Would you consider domestic violence/child abuse counseling psychiatric attention?
I admit I'm not familiar with the services that hotline volunteers provide. I don't know if its even considered counseling. Could someone provide a sample?

Even if it's psychological attention that is still clinical. psychologists see patients. licensed clinical social workers see patients. just because it isn't MD/DO doesn't mean it's not clinical. the definition of clinical is relating to the observation and treatment of patients

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yes, because you've never accidentally mis-typed a word. Sue me; I get distracted.

I'll repeat what I said. The question isn't whether mental health issues are real or not. Obviously they are. The question is whether suicide hotlines can be used as a "clinical experience" (note this is an arbitrarily defined term that does not encompass all of "health issues") on a medical school application. My answer was...I wouldn't risk not having some other hospital experience, purely based on what I've heard. Looking at the mixed responses in this thread, I'd say it's better to play it safe.

Furiously defending suicide ideation as an actual health problem when no one denied that it wasn't isn't really productive to the thread discussion -- med school apps.

Indeed, clinical experience is not an arbitrarily defined term to fit whatever ill-advised opinion you believe based on what you've "heard." Once again, I reiterate that it's incredibly clear that you have no idea of what you're talking about on all fronts, even spotting you an "accidentally mis-typed word."

I'm not furiously defending anything, I'm trying to educate your ilk but clearly failing. At the very least I can hopefully dissipate the nonsense you are spewing out

 

[astronautmd]

since the people calling aren't exactly seeking medical attention.

 

[Aerus]

Indeed, clinical experience is not an arbitrarily defined term to fit whatever ill-advised opinion you believe based on what you've "heard." Once again, I reiterate that it's incredibly clear that you have no idea of what you're talking about on all fronts, even spotting you an "accidentally mis-typed word."

Don't take what was said in this thread too personally.

I'm not furiously defending anything, I'm trying to educate your ilk but clearly failing. At the very least I can hopefully dissipate the nonsense you are spewing out

When you digress from the original purpose of the thread to debate over something that nobody disagrees with, then it's sort of furiously defending at this point.

 

[maliro]

You are actually in a very similar situation to me. Since I wasn't originally planning on going into medicine in college I had a lot of volunteering that dealt more with mental health and well-being and significantly less pure "clinical" volunteering.

1.) It most likely isn't going to count as medical experience, I didn't count mine. But I learned a ton doing those types of activities and it really payed off during secondaries/ interviews. So it if is something that YOU want to do versus the typical clinical volunteering then, do it.

2.) Clinical volunteering is important, you need to have some. I had around 50-100 hours and as far as I know it hasn't hurt me.

Bottom line: The suicide hot line makes you more interesting of a candidate. Everyone has similar clinical experiences, so unless you do something extremely different it won't make you stand out as much, so you should go with what is more interesting to you.

Best of luck~