Is my list realistic? Please advise.

[Pkboi24]

Rank: about top 1/3 in my class
School: Top 20 school down in the south
Step I - 255
Clinical grades:
- HP in medicine, peds, surgery, ob/gyn, rads.
- Honor in Family, Neuro, Med Sub-I, derm, geri, urology, ENT
EC:
- No research or teaching
- National leadership position in med student org and other volunteer stuff
Letters: Got 2 LoRs from the chiefs of medicine at 2 of the hospitals I rotate at and 1 from an assistant PD who was my sub-I attending.

The list below includes 30 programs. I know it's a lot, but I'm just paranoid and want to get into the best program possible. It seems to me however, that a great deal of these are "reach" schools for me considering my sub-stellar grades and lack of research. I want to get into the best academic program possible for Cards or Heme-Onc. Are there any more programs I should drop or include?

Yale-New Haven Medical Center Program
Washington University/B-JH/SLCH Consortium Program
Vanderbilt University Program
University of Washington Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Program
University of Pennsylvania Program
University of Michigan Program
University of Colorado Denver Program
University of Chicago Program
University of California (San Francisco) Program
University of California (San Diego) Program
UCLA Medical Center Program
Stanford University Program
New York University School of Medicine Program
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Cornell Campus) Program
New York Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus) Program
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
Massachusetts General Hospital Program
Johns Hopkins University/Bayview Medical Center Program
Johns Hopkins University Program
Emory University Program
Duke University Hospital Program
Brigham and Women's Hospital Program
Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center Program
Baylor College of Medicine Program
Mayo School of Graduate Medical Education (Rochester) Program
University of North Carolina Hospitals Program
Ohio State University Internal Medicine Program
UPMC - Medical Education Program

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[RonBurgandy]

You'll do great.

Apply to all of those programs, and you'll probably interview at most.

A very small number on your list may ding you for not having honored medicine, and you can probably guess which those are, but you never know.

One problem is that you might get tired of interviewing after a while, and it could get expensive. Also, a lot of the more competitive programs take their time in sending out interview invites, so you'll want to keep that in mind as you budget.

Overall, you have a very strong application -- maybe consider doing a research elective to have something to talk about at some of the more academic places -- but your record should be good enough as is.

Good luck!

 

[JoyfulMD]

Barring some red flag that you forgot to mention, I'd anticipate interviews at all of those programs. As said before - the usual suspects might not send out invitations until November, so don't worry. Good luck!

 

[Pkboi24]

You'll do great.

Apply to all of those programs, and you'll probably interview at most.

A very small number on your list may ding you for not having honored medicine, and you can probably guess which those are, but you never know.

One problem is that you might get tired of interviewing after a while, and it could get expensive. Also, a lot of the more competitive programs take their time in sending out interview invites, so you'll want to keep that in mind as you budget.

Overall, you have a very strong application -- maybe consider doing a research elective to have something to talk about at some of the more academic places -- but your record should be good enough as is.

Good luck!

Thanks Ron. I've definitely heard that some of the top tier schools use your medicine clerkship grade as a screening tool. Hopefully, my Sub-I grade will make up for it. What do you think about being from the South? Is that a disadvantage? The coastal schools seem to prefer people from either end of the US and assume that everything between NY and LA is a wasteland of road kill. How do I convince them that I want to move there despite having been in the South most of my life?

Also, who are these usual suspects that don't send out invites till late? I'm a total newb.

 

[gutonc]

Thanks Ron. I've definitely heard that some of the top tier schools use your medicine clerkship grade as a screening tool. Hopefully, my Sub-I grade will make up for it. What do you think about being from the South? Is that a disadvantage? The coastal schools seem to prefer people from either end of the US and assume that everything between NY and LA is a wasteland of road kill. How do I convince them that I want to move there despite having been in the South most of my life?

Also, who are these usual suspects that don't send out invites till late? I'm a total newb.

There are a handful of places that won't give you IVs b/c of your HP in IM although your H in your Sub-I probably saves you at most of them.

Bust out your Visa and go nuts.

 

[RonBurgandy]

I don't think being from the South will hurt you. I'd guess you don't see as many southerners in the east coast programs simply because they aren't interested in coming. Being a non-caribbean american is probably enough.

In terms of when invites are sent out, you can see how it unfolded last year by reading through the official interview thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=662257&page=5

Generally speaking, the new york and boston programs wait for the dean's letter, but don't freak out if some AOA and home applicants get some early interviews in NYC.

 

[KRichards62]

I would not be surprised if you didn't get an interview to MGH, B&W, UCSF, or Columbia. Top notch program + desirable location = very competitive. It seems >250 step I and good grades are a dime a dozen at these places, you gotta really do something special to get in (i.e. research).

Your list is very realistic. You will get interviews and have a good chance of matching at most of the places you mentioned. Hell, my dog could have matched at Emory last year if he would have interviewed...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=711973&highlight=emory

 

[gutonc]

I would not be surprised if you didn't get an interview to MGH, B&W, UCSF, or Columbia. Top notch program + desirable location = very competitive. It seems >250 step I and good grades are a dime a dozen at these places, you gotta really do something special to get in (i.e. research).

Agree with all but MGH, they'll interview anybody with a decent CV and a pulse.

 

[Pkboi24]

I would not be surprised if you didn't get an interview to MGH, B&W, UCSF, or Columbia. Top notch program + desirable location = very competitive. It seems >250 step I and good grades are a dime a dozen at these places, you gotta really do something special to get in (i.e. research).

Your list is very realistic. You will get interviews and have a good chance of matching at most of the places you mentioned. Hell, my dog could have matched at Emory last year if he would have interviewed...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=711973&highlight=emory

You're breaking my heart, man. I'm pretty sure I wasn't going to interview at the Harvards and JHU but Columbia was one of my top choices that I actually thought I had a shot at. Although I did hear that they weed out those who don't honor medicine. If I don't get an interview, I'm considering talking to the PD in person if I'm ever up in NYC during interview season. I had a friend who did that and secured an interview spot and eventually a residency spot.

 

[Pkboi24]

Agree with all but MGH, they'll interview anybody with a decent CV and a pulse.

If you look at the AAMC data, for the number of spots they have, MGH actually interviews very few applicants.

 

[indiamacbean]

If you go for your MGH interview you'll see what gutonc means. basically a cattle call. totally turned me off.

If Columbia is where you want to be, don't freak out. You have a good chance to make this work. Here's what I would do, find someone high up in your medicine program (chairman, medicine PD, dean of students, etc.) who has a connection to Columbia and have them make a call either to the PD or one of the associate PD. This should help get your file sorted from all the trillion other files and increase your chances of an interview. This is going to work better than getting rejected for an interview and then going asking for one.

FOLLOW UP. handwritten thank you notes. keep in contact with the program,be nice to EVERYONE on interview day (esp. program coordinators and your fellow interviewees) etc. this worked for me for residency match and cards fellowship match both with awesome results.

 

[Pkboi24]

If you go for your MGH interview you'll see what gutonc means. basically a cattle call. totally turned me off.

If Columbia is where you want to be, don't freak out. You have a good chance to make this work. Here's what I would do, find someone high up in your medicine program (chairman, medicine PD, dean of students, etc.) who has a connection to Columbia and have them make a call either to the PD or one of the associate PD. This should help get your file sorted from all the trillion other files and increase your chances of an interview. This is going to work better than getting rejected for an interview and then going asking for one.

FOLLOW UP. handwritten thank you notes. keep in contact with the program,be nice to EVERYONE on interview day (esp. program coordinators and your fellow interviewees) etc. this worked for me for residency match and cards fellowship match both with awesome results.

Yeah, I've definitely already looked for that. Sadly, I wasn't able to find anyone in my med dept with any ties to Columbia. I guess people from the South tend stay in the South.

I don't understand why MGH would want to do this. It's basically a waste of their resources to interview so many people. I doubt they need to go very far down their rank list to fill their spots. Even if they weeded out all the people with Step I <250 and No medicine honors they would still be able to get a sizable interview pool where they could pick and choose a group of 40 brilliant interns.

 

[jbz24]

Columbia is very unlikely because not only did you not honor medicine, but you also did not honor most of your third year clerkships (peds, surgery, obgyn). Unless derm, geri, ENT, and urology are required for all third year students at your institution, I doubt they would even be added to your MSPE. However, the one thing working in your favor is your home institution (which is either UTSW or Vanderbilt) because Columbia may want to diversify their residents with someone from the south. But Columbia is one of those places that is very particular about honors, class rank, and AOA.

I think that 30 programs is way too much to apply to. You should definitely trim it down by geography. And even if you're likely to match into one of these, I would definitely add at least a couple of safeties, which I would recommend even for the best applicants. Otherwise I think you'll do great.

 

[Pkboi24]

Columbia is very unlikely because not only did you not honor medicine, but you also did not honor most of your third year clerkships (peds, surgery, obgyn). Unless derm, geri, ENT, and urology are required for all third year students at your institution, I doubt they would even be added to your MSPE. However, the one thing working in your favor is your home institution (which is either UTSW or Vanderbilt) because Columbia may want to diversify their residents with someone from the south. But Columbia is one of those places that is very particular about honors, class rank, and AOA.

I think that 30 programs is way too much to apply to. You should definitely trim it down by geography. And even if you're likely to match into one of these, I would definitely add at least a couple of safeties, which I would recommend even for the best applicants. Otherwise I think you'll do great.

Why do programs base so much of their decision on clinical grades? They're the most subjective things in the world. Not to mention, an H is much harder to get at certain schools than others. I even had a surgery PD tell me to my face once that he doesn't consider grades very highly for that exact reason. Why does medicine seem to care so much about this subjective method of evaluation? My school for example, only allows 10 Honors and 10 HP for the entire rotation. The rest are pass. It's completely relative. Had I gone to a less rigorous school, I'm sure I could have gotten more Honors. Do PDs not take this into consideration?

 

[jbz24]

Why do programs base so much of their decision on clinical grades? They're the most subjective things in the world. Not to mention, an H is much harder to get at certain schools than others. I even had a surgery PD tell me to my face once that he doesn't consider grades very highly for that exact reason. Why does medicine seem to care so much about this subjective method of evaluation? My school for example, only allows 10 Honors and 10 HP for the entire rotation. The rest are pass. It's completely relative. Had I gone to a less rigorous school, I'm sure I could have gotten more Honors. Do PDs not take this into consideration?

I agree, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. However, as a PD, you really don't have much to compare applicants. PDs will (or should) take into account how rigorous your school is. Also, they will definitely compare applicants from the same school - it is probably the best way to weed out some applicants. So if you're the only applicant gunning for Columbia from your school, you'll definitely have a much better shot than if there are a handful of people from your school also applying with better grades.

 

[Pkboi24]

I agree, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. However, as a PD, you really don't have much to compare applicants. PDs will (or should) take into account how rigorous your school is. Also, they will definitely compare applicants from the same school - it is probably the best way to weed out some applicants. So if you're the only applicant gunning for Columbia from your school, you'll definitely have a much better shot than if there are a handful of people from your school also applying with better grades.

I think my problem was that I focused too much on the clinics and just didn't take into account how much the shelf counted for. How do I tell them this without making it sound like I'm just making an excuse?

 

[gutonc]

I think my problem was that I focused too much on the clinics and just didn't take into account how much the shelf counted for. How do I tell them this without making it sound like I'm just making an excuse?

You want to be careful with this approach as just about anything sounds like you're making an excuse.

Also, on a semi-related note, did your school not give you the grading breakdown of the rotation up front? We pretty much always got a grading breakdown as part of the rotation syllabus.

 

[Pkboi24]

You want to be careful with this approach as just about anything sounds like you're making an excuse.

Also, on a semi-related note, did your school not give you the grading breakdown of the rotation up front? We pretty much always got a grading breakdown as part of the rotation syllabus.

No, we do not get a grading breakdown. I'm not trying to sound like I'm making excuses but do you think some sort of explanation is in order? Should I just not mention it?

Also, as a side note, I feel like my medical school takes very poor care of their students. Is this all medical schools? I mean, I don't expect hand-holding on all matters but I think it would only benefit the school to make their students more competitive. I feel like our school relies on the fact that their ranking brings in top notch students who won't accept mediocrity and so they can just leave it up to the students to maintain the standard of success.

 

[superhero16]

I too would also like to know if anyone has any ideas on how to address this topic. How can you make yourself sound good if your clinical reviews were awesome but your shelf scores were only average and therefore a lack of Honors.

Also, do you think that a high Step 2 CK score can overcome the lack of Honors?