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Is paying OOS tuition worth it if it's a mid-tier school?

WCGee

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Hey everyone,

I figure those of you already in med school can give me a more founded response than those in pre-allo...

Is it worth paying OOS tuition when I could pay half as much and stay in-state? Specifically, I LOVED Penn State, but don't know if I can justify going there when I have two perfectly fine choices in Illinois (University of Illinois-Rockford and SIU). Don't get me wrong, I had no problem with those two schools, it's just that I got a better overall "feel" at PSU.

A lot of people say to go where I'll be happiest, others say to stay in state and save money...what would you guys do? Thank you in advance! :)
 

menaniac

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I actually had that question too, but regarding in-state vs. mid-tier private school. Is the increase (like, $15K per year) worth it, all else being equal? Are private schools considered "better" than most public schools, just because they're private (read: more expensive)? Just wondering....
 

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I'd take the cheaper school if it is a significant amount of money. I passed up my fairly well regarded in-state school and a very well regarded private school to move half way across the nation for a cheaper one that may be a little less well known. I just think of the $70,000-100,000 I'm saving and I have no real regrets. Besides, if you make your mind up to go into a super competitive specialty, you can do it from anywhere with the right amount of work. I just had a fourth year friend match at his first choice for N-Surg. Unless you're sorely dissapointed in Illinois, I'd stay there.
 
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It probably is not worth it if you go strictly by the value of your education vs. what you're paying in the absence of any scholarships. All accredited schools in the US give you access to the USMLE material. They have to.

Now if you believe that you can gain a lot by meeting new people and/or Penn State's curriculum is better suited to you, go for it. Is there any option for you to appeal for in-state tuition later?

If I were in your shoes, I'd be absorbing an extra cost of 80 large over four years to be taking the same licensing exams and having the same propensity to match. Given how unhappy I am with my state school right now, I just might recommend others in my state to go elsewhere; but it's still a pretty steep difference in cost.
 

Rockhouse

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I actually had that question too, but regarding in-state vs. mid-tier private school. Is the increase (like, $15K per year) worth it, all else being equal? Are private schools considered "better" than most public schools, just because they're private (read: more expensive)? Just wondering....

And no, schools aren't better just because they are private. Some private schools are just average (Creighton, for example and USC Medicine for that matter) and some public schools are top notch (University of Washington, UCSF).
 

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Hey everyone,

I figure those of you already in med school can give me a more founded response than those in pre-allo...

Is it worth paying OOS tuition when I could pay half as much and stay in-state? Specifically, I LOVED Penn State, but don't know if I can justify going there when I have two perfectly fine choices in Illinois (University of Illinois-Rockford and SIU). Don't get me wrong, I had no problem with those two schools, it's just that I got a better overall "feel" at PSU.

A lot of people say to go where I'll be happiest, others say to stay in state and save money...what would you guys do? Thank you in advance! :)

I went with going where I'd actually enjoy it and not want to shoot myself everyday for making the wrong decision. I turned down my state school and came to a private school. Despite the money, I'm SOOOO glad I didn't go to my state school.
 

OncoCaP

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Hey everyone,

I figure those of you already in med school can give me a more founded response than those in pre-allo...

Is it worth paying OOS tuition when I could pay half as much and stay in-state? Specifically, I LOVED Penn State, but don't know if I can justify going there when I have two perfectly fine choices in Illinois (University of Illinois-Rockford and SIU). Don't get me wrong, I had no problem with those two schools, it's just that I got a better overall "feel" at PSU.

A lot of people say to go where I'll be happiest, others say to stay in state and save money...what would you guys do? Thank you in advance! :)

I'm a pre-med also. I am assuming that you have acceptances from all of these schools and you aren't on any wait lists for these schools or other schools that you liked even more. My suggestion is to talk to PSU. Explain your dilemma very diplomatically and ask about scholarships, etc. Maybe they will work with you. Also, talk to the PSU, UIR, and SIU (Springfield?) students and their experience. Explain your situation and see what they say. Then make up your own mind on how you want to spend your money. It's your life.

That being said, I know of people who have taken full scholarships to schools (OOS) and been totally miserable (there can always be surprises). I would gather as much information as I could. You might want to take a look at survey results like: http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/ to gather a few data points.
 

Divine Furor

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Hey everyone,

I figure those of you already in med school can give me a more founded response than those in pre-allo...

Is it worth paying OOS tuition when I could pay half as much and stay in-state? Specifically, I LOVED Penn State, but don't know if I can justify going there when I have two perfectly fine choices in Illinois (University of Illinois-Rockford and SIU). Don't get me wrong, I had no problem with those two schools, it's just that I got a better overall "feel" at PSU.

A lot of people say to go where I'll be happiest, others say to stay in state and save money...what would you guys do? Thank you in advance! :)

We could talk about the enormous cost difference between OOS and IS, but we know no matter what MS=Debt unless you're a trustfundian or you were part of that group of warehouse workers who won the lottery a few months ago in where was that again..Wisconsin? I digress. Go where you're happy. I turned down NJMS for Wright State in Ohio, which according to whatever list you want might be considered mid-tier...and I'm happy as a clam about it. I'm looking forward to it. It's not in Newark. It's not a dungeon. And if I have to dig a little deeper for satisfaction....I'm more than willing.
 

WCGee

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Thanks to everyone for the advice! I did take your recommendations and called PSU to ask about scholarships, but they just referred me to a list of outside ones... :( I think I'm definitely going to PM some of the current PSU/UIR/SIU (yes, that's Southern Illinois) students and ask them about their experiences thus far...
 

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So I have to respectfully disagree with much of the advice you have so far received. Money alone is a poor reason to choose anything in life that matters. Usually the people who fret about this are those who have never made any significant purchases in life that matter. If however, you have ever owned a house or two you are a little less fearful.

The truth is that while the general body of what you are taught in school is the same from one to the other, the philosophy and art of medicine is VERY different. The entire approach to the patient, the patient-doctor relationship, the approach to disease, how you view the people you work with and the medical team, and more are all determined by the enviroment where you study.

From the moment you graduate you will forever be a doctor. This is how people will know you and this is how your life will be defined and alot of what type of physician you will be is determined by the place where you trained. So I think the real decision you must make is....WHICH SCHOOL DO I BELIEVE WILL MAKE ME INTO THE TYPE OF DOCTOR THAT I THINK IS THE MOST IDEAL. Everything else is secondary.

There is no physician that i have ever known, worked with, etc that has ever had a problem paying back loans of any amount. The truth is any experienced accountant will advise you to never pay them off because they are essentially free money. ( to explain this will require too much talking about interest rates and inflation, etc). But still it is a non-issue...it just seems like one from your current financial perspective.

So bottom line....if you made it to the end of your life and still had educational debt, would you really care about it if you could look back and say every dollar spent was worth it because I became the person I always wanted to be? Just ponder that for awhile.

There really are schools better than others and just getting the raw info you need to pass the USMLE says nothing about whether you will be the next Albert Schweitzer, but studying in a place that also develops your personal "style" within and brings out the spirit of medicine you believe in, certainly will.
 

WCGee

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So I have to respectfully disagree with much of the advice you have so far received. Money alone is a poor reason to choose anything in life that matters. Usually the people who fret about this are those who have never made any significant purchases in life that matter. If however, you have ever owned a house or two you are a little less fearful.

The truth is that while the general body of what you are taught in school is the same from one to the other, the philosophy and art of medicine is VERY different. The entire approach to the patient, the patient-doctor relationship, the approach to disease, how you view the people you work with and the medical team, and more are all determined by the enviroment where you study.

From the moment you graduate you will forever be a doctor. This is how people will know you and this is how your life will be defined and alot of what type of physician you will be is determined by the place where you trained. So I think the real decision you must make is....WHICH SCHOOL DO I BELIEVE WILL MAKE ME INTO THE TYPE OF DOCTOR THAT I THINK IS THE MOST IDEAL. Everything else is secondary.

There is no physician that i have ever known, worked with, etc that has ever had a problem paying back loans of any amount. The truth is any experienced accountant will advise you to never pay them off because they are essentially free money. ( to explain this will require too much talking about interest rates and inflation, etc). But still it is a non-issue...it just seems like one from your current financial perspective.

So bottom line....if you made it to the end of your life and still had educational debt, would you really care about it if you could look back and say every dollar spent was worth it because I became the person I always wanted to be? Just ponder that for awhile.

There really are schools better than others and just getting the raw info you need to pass the USMLE says nothing about whether you will be the next Albert Schweitzer, but studying in a place that also develops your personal "style" within and brings out the spirit of medicine you believe in, certainly will.



Hmm...this is very different from all the advice I've been getting about how it doesn't really matter where you go (MD = MD)...I guess I didn't think about the kinds of doctors that these schools produce...I will have to go ponder now--thank you RockShox!
 
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WHICH SCHOOL DO I BELIEVE WILL MAKE ME INTO THE TYPE OF DOCTOR THAT I THINK IS THE MOST IDEAL.

I think this is a good line of thinking on an idealistic level. But how is a premed supposed to determine this with any sort of accuracy?

First, all schools put out a diverse group of people.

Second, you get very little insight into how life at a school actually is from an interview and a second-look visit. You get even less insight into how that school has shaped the practice of medicine by its alumni.

The "feel" I got at my interview has had nothing to do with my experience at my current school. Not that I was misled, just that I had a very limited perspective.

Unless you have some very strong evidence about Penn State that goes way beyond the typical premed perspective, I would go with the cheaper option. With the information you have, I think it is about equally likely that the local option will make you the best doctor you could become as Penn State.
 

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Lord Jeebus does make a good point in saying that the information is difficult to get and yes it does have an air of idealism...but you cannot refute the truth of what I say. And because it is true it makes it all the more important that you try to answer the question.

Think about this...the average cost of your medical education is something like 100,000-130,000 or some number like that. I want you to think about the most expensive things that you have ever purchased. Perhaps a car, or maybe even a house. Now try to remember the effort that went into that purchase. Did you do research and how many sites did you use? Did you ask friends, or experts? Did you visit all kinds of different car lots or realty places? Did you get an inspection, do a test drive, say a prayer? And at the the time of purchase did your heart skip a beat when you signed your name to the dotted line. Of course it did, cause it was one hell of a purchase and dang it if you were going to be sure to make the right choice. So why not then expend the same amount or more energy researching the place where you will spend 4yrs, $130,000.00, and a considerable amount of your soul?

If you did not find out about the philosophy of the school and whether it "fit" you then I submit you failed to ask the right questions. No different than a missed diagnosis. Sure perhaps some people where deceived. But my point is that I think most premeds focus on entirely the WRONG things when choosing a school and I think that is why there are a good number of people who end up being disappointed. Focusing solely on cost is one of those WRONG things. I would really try to answer the questions that really matter, and sure, if in the end you don't know...or all the options seem fine... then by all means let economics be your guide. But don't let anyone try to tell you that all schools are of equal quality, anymore than all cancer centers are as good as a MD Anderson. (they all have the same books don't they so why is one seen as better than another...think about that).
 

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And I submit that you need to step out of your own ass and join the rest of us.

Once again proof the the dollars spent on higher education are going to good use. It is any wonder that good academic discourse is so hard to find anymore. Call me old fashioned I don't believe just because nobody knows who you are online it means we can just throw out the rules of civility? I think we can really be better then this. In fact I think it is time to start a new thread....:cool:
 

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Lord Jeebus does make a good point in saying that the information is difficult to get and yes it does have an air of idealism...but you cannot refute the truth of what I say. And because it is true it makes it all the more important that you try to answer the question.

Think about this...the average cost of your medical education is something like 100,000-130,000 or some number like that. I want you to think about the most expensive things that you have ever purchased. Perhaps a car, or maybe even a house. Now try to remember the effort that went into that purchase. Did you do research and how many sites did you use? Did you ask friends, or experts? Did you visit all kinds of different car lots or realty places? Did you get an inspection, do a test drive, say a prayer? And at the the time of purchase did your heart skip a beat when you signed your name to the dotted line. Of course it did, cause it was one hell of a purchase and dang it if you were going to be sure to make the right choice. So why not then expend the same amount or more energy researching the place where you will spend 4yrs, $130,000.00, and a considerable amount of your soul?

If you did not find out about the philosophy of the school and whether it "fit" you then I submit you failed to ask the right questions. No different than a missed diagnosis. Sure perhaps some people where deceived. But my point is that I think most premeds focus on entirely the WRONG things when choosing a school and I think that is why there are a good number of people who end up being disappointed. Focusing solely on cost is one of those WRONG things. I would really try to answer the questions that really matter, and sure, if in the end you don't know...or all the options seem fine... then by all means let economics be your guide. But don't let anyone try to tell you that all schools are of equal quality, anymore than all cancer centers are as good as a MD Anderson. (they all have the same books don't they so why is one seen as better than another...think about that).

philosophy wtf. You pay them, work your butt off and get a degree. spare us your premed idealism.
 

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I'm an MS0, but I've thought about this alot. Like RockShox said, no doctor really has a problem with paying back their loans, but the problem "IS" the loans. Would you like to be paying back your loans for 30 years, 15 years, 10 years, or 5 years? You aren't going to repay your loans during medical school, and not in residency either (and if you do, I hear its hell). So you are an attending and you finally start making some money, do you truly believe that after 8+ years of living like a student you are going to live a couple of more years like that in order to pay off the loans? I know its ideal, but it rarely happens, especially if you have a spouse who has been "waiting" for you to become an attending too.

I think that too often, folks look at what the monthly payment will be, and not at how much money you will be losing in interest. My mentor is currently doing a laproscopic surgery fellowship at OHSU. He graduated from Northwestern School of Medicine, and he did his surgery residency at UC. He was relaying to me that as he looks back (4 years of medical school, 7 years of GS residency, and 1 year fellowship) and sees his debt that has increased by $40K+ since he started medical school, he wonders whether it would have been better to go to his state (in Illinois) medical school. He values his strong education, but now that he is finally looking at becoming an attending, the debt seems quite annoying and stifling.

I believe that if you are equally happy between two schools, or even if the difference in happiness is small, that money should be the deciding factor. Medical school debt is very common for medical students, but that doesn't change the fact that it is BONDAGE. If you can avoid a large portion of that bondage, I would say, go for it.
 

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Call me tight fisted but I will never pay more to attend any allo school if there was a significantly cheaper option. It's not like I haven't heard the stories of declining physician income.
 

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Now that u got into med school(s), it's time to get real...

I mean we are all in it for the money to some extent (actually to a much greater extent than any other resons), so don't take a self-conflicting action now.

I know that some state school charge huge $$ for OOS, much more than some private med school. Saving money today counts in the end, trust me. Just a simple example, u could save a down payment for a decent house if u stick with ur state school. Besides, it's not like the state schools u got in sucks so that u can get into a good residency.
 
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philosophy wtf. You pay them, work your butt off and get a degree. spare us your premed idealism.

Agreed. Medicine is an art, but it takes many years beyond med school to master, and it's incumbent upon the practitioner to develop the necessary skills. Whether the OP goes to Penn State, SIU or UI-R, there will be good faculty around to serve as role models and mentors. There is zero reason to believe that the doctors at Penn State will be superior to those back in Illinois. Moreover, there is no overarching institutional philosophy that is in any way meaningful.

Because the OP feel some vague, intangible pull to one institution is a poor reason to shell out an extra 100,000 very tangible dollar bills. The truth of the matter is that without a crystal ball there is no way to predict how med school will go. You just have to do a fairly cold blooded cost/benefit analysis and make your choice. I don't think the argument for OOS comes within several thousand miles of validity, but of course the decision is not mine to make.
 

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philosophy wtf. You pay them, work your butt off and get a degree. spare us your premed idealism.

Thanks, I will of course because the advice was not for you. Additionally, I am not a premed. I am actually an MS3. (usually in public debate when one of your points is totally wrong the rest are also negated by association but we can throw you a free fish today) And truth be told if my class held a vote I would win as most moderate. But I get that from being older.

Throwing out names like, Idealist, Facist, Socialist. I am sure are nice for distraction but they do nothing to directy refute what I have said....in other words if you can't knock the message kill the messanger instead...this is what some may call the Capitol Hill/Beltway technique.

But knock all you want...if anyone posing criticism here would truly turn down Harvard to save on loans let me know.

The point of my post is not that the OP should only focus on philosophy....the point is that they also should NOT ONLY focus on money. There is a reason why some people don't buy all of their furniture at Walmart. Thomasville is more than a name. Quality does count for something. Now this could be that the private/OOS school is more quality or....wait for it...that the state school is better. It can be read both ways.


I suggest at least trying to know that before you drop the equivolent of a house on them. Even in Vegas the house has to at least tell me the odds.

More over so does being happy. Life is to short to be miserable. It is ok to splurg on your own happiness...and if for some happiness means a life without loans so be it...if for others it means something else that is fine too. Lets not forget the OP actually said "I LOVED Penn state" Some people have occasionally been know to spend extra money on the people, things, places, food that they love. It is not illogical it is what life is about.

And for the person above who talked about being a miser out of residency to pay back the loans....One close friend who just started as a new anesthesiologist out of residency just signed on for 500,000 a year. My Neuro chief was offered 240,000 starting, and even the my pediatric friend is doing 200,000. I don't think they need to wait a year to by furniture.
 

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. There is zero reason to believe that the doctors at Penn State will be superior to those back in Illinois. Moreover, there is no overarching institutional philosophy that is in any way meaningful.

.

Ok this statement is so categorically false I don't know were to begin. The last time I checked US education is not socialistic. Everyone knows there are undergraduate schools that are better then others. (MIT vs. some other place). Everyone also know that if your kids has cancer do you want them to go to MD Anderson or Timpaweekee General Medical center? And anyone who thinks that institutional philosophy does not mean anything seriously lacks real world experience. This is why some residency programs take students preferentially from certain schools. It is because experience has told them that those students tended to fit in better with their program's goals. It was not because they had memorized Robbins.

Some schools are competative and cut throat and people who thrive on this do well. Others are more laid back and some people thrive on this. Some schools think that actual research experience is a must for a good doctor and thus require their students to do it before they graduate. And others, make their students to a certain number of volunteer projects because humanism is their focus. Some schools take no input from students, others let their students have a significant role in scheduling and curriculum. In the end all of these little things combined shape the outward expression of medicine that you do. Whether you want to admit it or not the apple does not fall far from the tree.

Saying all schools are the same like saying a steak, is a steak, is a steak. And anyone that's eaten at Ruth's Chris knows that is not true.

I have had the privilege of visiting many schools in the country through a position I hold and had the chance to talk with hundreds of med students. My advice is also tailored by this. Please do not take the myopic view that in some way I am negating the quality of a state school (hello, U of Mich, etc) but as with any good advisor; don't make the decision for them just give them all the pertinents and let them choose...we call this informed consent in some circles.
 

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Hey everyone,

I figure those of you already in med school can give me a more founded response than those in pre-allo...

Is it worth paying OOS tuition when I could pay half as much and stay in-state? Specifically, I LOVED Penn State, but don't know if I can justify going there when I have two perfectly fine choices in Illinois (University of Illinois-Rockford and SIU). Don't get me wrong, I had no problem with those two schools, it's just that I got a better overall "feel" at PSU.

A lot of people say to go where I'll be happiest, others say to stay in state and save money...what would you guys do? Thank you in advance! :)


In the same predicament as you... Penn St. or SUNY Upstate/Downstate. Hell, the way I see it... over the course of 15-20 years of repayment, it will be the matter of several hundred dollars a month. I want to be happy and know that my medical school years were an amazing experience. Penn St. had amazing facilities, awesome people and some really great research, including the required Research Program for all M.D.'s.

The area is relatively quiet, but I personally prefer that. No distractions as in a city school! When it comes down to it, I would save about $80,000 going to SUNY schools over Penn St. Who cares? I'm financing my education like I am a house. It will get paid off... You're not going to be a poor physician either way!
 

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Saying all schools are the same like saying a steak, is a steak, is a steak. And anyone that's eaten at Ruth's Chris knows that is not true.

I'm not saying all schools are the same. I'm saying that there is no evidence that the educational experience at Penn State is demonstrably superior to that at UI-R or SIU. There's a difference.
 

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Thanks, I will of course because the advice was not for you. Additionally, I am not a premed. I am actually an MS3. (usually in public debate when one of your points is totally wrong the rest are also negated by association but we can throw you a free fish today) And truth be told if my class held a vote I would win as most moderate. But I get that from being older.

Throwing out names like, Idealist, Facist, Socialist. I am sure are nice for distraction but they do nothing to directy refute what I have said....in other words if you can't knock the message kill the messanger instead...this is what some may call the Capitol Hill/Beltway technique.

But knock all you want...if anyone posing criticism here would truly turn down Harvard to save on loans let me know.

The point of my post is not that the OP should only focus on philosophy....the point is that they also should NOT ONLY focus on money. There is a reason why some people don't buy all of their furniture at Walmart. Thomasville is more than a name. Quality does count for something. Now this could be that the private/OOS school is more quality or....wait for it...that the state school is better. It can be read both ways.
I suggest at least trying to know that before you drop the equivolent of a house on them. Even in Vegas the house has to at least tell me the odds.

More over so does being happy. Life is to short to be miserable. It is ok to splurg on your own happiness...and if for some happiness means a life without loans so be it...if for others it means something else that is fine too.

And for the person above who talked about being a miser out of residency to pay back the loans....One close friend who just started as a new anesthesiologist out of residency just signed on for 500,000 a year. My Neuro chief was offered 240,000 starting, and even the my pediatric friend is doing 200,000. I don't think they need to wait a year to by furniture.


harvard is an outlier. many of us would go to harvard in spite of the loans. I would rather make payments on my porsche instead of some huge loans.

You don't have to be a pre-med to be overly idealistic. I'm surprised M. School hasn't waken you up yet.

Factors worthy of consideration: Location, $$$, and to some degree, prestige (the likes of U Penn, Johns, Harvard, etc.; not Penn State versus U. Illinois)
 

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Factors worthy of consideration: Location, $$$, and to some degree, prestige (the likes of U Penn, Johns, Harvard, etc.; not Penn State versus U. Illinois)

Again, 100% agree. The schools in question all fall into that big puddle of 100+ middle tier schools. PSU <-> SIU <-> UI-R is nothing more than a lateral move in any direction.

I also have to question this "where I'll be happiest" sentiment. You know how many other residents I know who look back fondly on med school? Zero. Med school just isn't a happy time. Intense and amazing? Yes. Grueling and frustrating? Absolutely. Happy? No way. It's like high school. You go in, make some good friends, beat your way through it, and you get on with life. This notion that you're actually going to be happier at School A vs. School B is largely an illusion created by School A's admissions office.
 
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RockShox

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I have actually loved every minute of med school. All of my classmates will say the same. Ask any of them. Ask any resident and they will tell you the same. I am sorry that not everyone had the opportunity to have this experience. I did. I am glad I made the choice to go to the place I knew I would be happiest at and that has made all of the difference. I love the school, the hospitals, the patient population, and the city rocks. Every one here will concur and people who visit here comment on how the student body exudes this. You can believe that or not, doesn't matter to me, just saying the truth.


On a separate point...

I also have to say that to those who think somehow med school should beat you down so much that you become a complete pragmatist without any ideals really have missed the point. It kind of tragic actually. Without some people who have some level of healthy idealism is there anyone around to help make things better?

While we mistakenly assume that idealism is the venue of inexperience the truth, as anyone who has ever had in depth conversations with grandparents will tell you, is that the elderly and seasoned people of society often hold the highest ideals. It is because they have had the opportunity to look back upon a lifetime of decisions and have discovered through experience what really matters. Some may call it wisdom. Rosa Parks was not 18 she was 42, Lincoln was actually 51, Nelson Mandela is quite aged, as was Albert Schweitzer. I really could go on forever. But you get the point.

So to the OP...Good Luck! I am sure that you will make the decision that works out the best for you. And really medical school is a wonderful, exciting time in your life that many people never get to experience and you only get to do once...so do try to enjoy it while it's there and I think you will be the better for it.
 

psipsina

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I think there is one amazing benefit of lower debt that hasn't been discussed yet . . . lack of pressure to pick certain high income specialties. I have some ideas of things that interest me but honestly who knows whats going to catch my heart once I get more experiences on clinical rotations? What if I love pediatrics or realize I want to be a rural GP but I knew that payments on 250K debt + undergrad + interest thru residency would be quite a burden on those salaries. What if I love a specialty that has a long residency like neurosurg where I would accumulate twice the interest before I can even start making a dent? There is enough pressure in medschool without a quarter mil+ looming over your head.

I chose my state school over Tulane and am very very happy with my choice. For half the price (and then some with a scholarship) I am getting an amazing education. We have great technology like simulators, our proffessors are amazing and comitted to our learning, we have great clinical experience since our hospitals are overwhelmed so we get tons of hands on opportunities early on, every clinician I have encoutered has been an exceptional motivated teacher even with a clueless first year following them about, and my school has a great emphasis on generating clinicans who excel both in the science and the art of medicine. My school isn't ranked and isn't prestigious so I might have easily overlooked it, which would have been a d*mn shame.

So do your research, and if there isn't some glaring flaw at the state school or something overwhelmingly amazing about the OOS school that the others lack, I'd say follow the money.
 

Gut Shot

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I have actually loved every minute of med school.

Of that I have no doubt, but that's your attitude and you carry it virtually independent of where you get your MD. If you were the OP, I dare say you would feel the same way at Penn State, UI-R or SIU. Your problem in this discussion isn't that anything you have said is necessarily untrue, it's merely a series of non sequiturs. You may feel free to blather on about artistry and idealism all you want, and it will still fail to address whether it's worth OOS tuition to attend a mid-tier school.

RockShox said:
All of my classmates will say the same. Ask any of them. Ask any resident and they will tell you the same.

Well, that's life at Fantasy Island Regional Medical Center.
 

medstylee

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i turned down instate tuition for a MUCH more expensive private school. i'm sure a lot of people think i'm a bonehead because of that. my reason for doing this wasn't because i believed the education to be any better at the private school. for me, it was a matter of location and general atmosphere of the school. i knew both locations well (had lived in washington,dc previously and had family up in syracuse), so that helped my decision. i'm doing this all on loans. i've talked with physicians who had more debt in the end than i will have, and they all are confident they will be just fine. sure it'll take me a lot longer to pay off my debt, but whatever. so far, i'm very happy about my decision. good luck.
 
So the general consensus is that I should stay in-state unless I really, truly despise the schools (which I don't), right?
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say you should only go elsewhere if you despise your state school. I'm spending an extra $40,000 because I didn't think the environment at my state school would have helped me out. I just had a bad vibe about that place, so I went to a private school (which is in the same state anyways). I'm definitely not the only one in my class who made that decision either.
 

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Of that I have no doubt, but that's your attitude and you carry it virtually independent of where you get your MD. If you were the OP, I dare say you would feel the same way at Penn State, UI-R or SIU. Your problem in this discussion isn't that anything you have said is necessarily untrue, it's merely a series of non sequiturs. You may feel free to blather on about artistry and idealism all you want, and it will still fail to address whether it's worth OOS tuition to attend a mid-tier school.

Gun Shot,

LOL....cute, about the fantasy island bit, ...lol really

I was happy to see the you use the term non sequiturs, though I not sure you know what it means based on usage. For others it is latin for "it does not follow" -- a determination that does not logically follow the statement that proceeds it for example.

The japanese have dark hair, Jane's hair is dark....thus Jane is Japanese.

A more subtle example would be

"Tens of thousands of Americans have seen objects in the night sky which they could not identify. The existence of life on other planets is fast becoming certainty!"


To save us the trouble I will just say if anyone sees that in what I said let me know&#8230;.however, ironically this is a non sequitur...

There are 100+ mid tier schools. Thus Mid tier schools are all the same quality (i.e. not unique). U of Ill and Penn State are mid tier; they are equal in quality and experience.

This is a non sequitur because the author has made the leap from "100+ mid tier schools" to "thus they are all the same" without including the reasoning/data/anything else proving/supporting the conclusion. Though the author may try to say "res ipsa loquitur" or that it is "prima facie" they don't get off that easy cause "A posteriori" just won't cut it.

For those who do not follow&#8230;.this would be the same as saying in a horse race all of the horses that were not first or last all crossed the finish line at the same time, which could be true, but it is also probable that horse 5 beat horse 6 by a fathom. In other words, U of I and Penn State may be mid tier but it is quite possible one is in the top tenth of mid tier and the other is in the last tenth with 90 schools in between. Is this true.. I do not know and anyhow who determines what a top tier school is&#8230;US News, you, them, I did not know there was any agreement on this.

I really have appreciated your point of view and there is true merit to what you say..economics are a valid consideration, as is overall happiness...and also very much appreciate you having a civil discourse with me on this, honestly I do. So good luck to you too in whatever you are doing.
 
C

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Paying back loans? In the past, no problem. Higher doc salaries, lower medical tuition. Both trends are changing.

Diversity? My school has almost none unless you are talking about a good mix of both Southern Baptist white people and Free-Will Baptist white people.

Philosophy/art of medicine? I'll take a solid USMLE I over that any day, so I'd still take the place that gives me the best shot at that.

Would I pay extra for Harvard over my state school? Hmm... likely no. Baylor yes, maybe even a school not inside such an expensive city. Debt level is a huge concern of mine; and I am not that competative of a person. I will learn and practice my own philosophy during residency and what comes after.
 

Gut Shot

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This is a non sequitur because the author has made the leap from "100+ mid tier schools" to "thus they are all the same" without including the reasoning/data/anything else proving/supporting the conclusion.

AGAIN, it is not my position that the schools are all the same, but that there is no compelling data to assert that one particular school (in this case Penn State) is better than any other middle tier medical school. Don't confuse my logic with your lack of reading comprehension.

Would you like me to explain this rather simple stance a few more times? I've got the time.

Moreover, the onus is on you to prove that one can detect how the "philosophy and art" of medicine is better taught in particular institutions. Thus far you have failed (rather miserably, I might add).
 

Gut Shot

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Paying back loans? In the past, no problem. Higher doc salaries, lower medical tuition. Both trends are changing.

An excellent point. While medical school has long been synonymous with debt, the costs have been increasing at absurd rates every year. Hence, the magnitude of the debt that new grads take on has never before been seen. Looking to older physicians is likely misleading, as they're income/debt ratios will be, on average, significanly higher than anything we're dealing with.
 

Dakota

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I'm paying $25k more per year in tuition to go to a private school than my state school which offered me a scholarship.

After doing some math, this means it will take me about 4 years longer to retire. Would I make the same decision again? Yes. But run some numbers yourself looking at how interest compounds (esp at 6.8%). This is something to think about carefully.
 

YupGypsy

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Gun Shot,

LOL....cute, about the fantasy island bit, ...lol really

I was happy to see the you use the term non sequiturs, though I not sure you know what it means based on usage. For others it is latin for "it does not follow" -- a determination that does not logically follow the statement that proceeds it for example.

The japanese have dark hair, Jane's hair is dark....thus Jane is Japanese.

A more subtle example would be

"Tens of thousands of Americans have seen objects in the night sky which they could not identify. The existence of life on other planets is fast becoming certainty!"


To save us the trouble I will just say if anyone sees that in what I said let me know&#8230;.however, ironically this is a non sequitur...

There are 100+ mid tier schools. Thus Mid tier schools are all the same quality (i.e. not unique). U of Ill and Penn State are mid tier; they are equal in quality and experience.

This is a non sequitur because the author has made the leap from "100+ mid tier schools" to "thus they are all the same" without including the reasoning/data/anything else proving/supporting the conclusion. Though the author may try to say "res ipsa loquitur" or that it is "prima facie" they don't get off that easy cause "A posteriori" just won't cut it.

For those who do not follow&#8230;.this would be the same as saying in a horse race all of the horses that were not first or last all crossed the finish line at the same time, which could be true, but it is also probable that horse 5 beat horse 6 by a fathom. In other words, U of I and Penn State may be mid tier but it is quite possible one is in the top tenth of mid tier and the other is in the last tenth with 90 schools in between. Is this true.. I do not know and anyhow who determines what a top tier school is&#8230;US News, you, them, I did not know there was any agreement on this.

I really have appreciated your point of view and there is true merit to what you say..economics are a valid consideration, as is overall happiness...and also very much appreciate you having a civil discourse with me on this, honestly I do. So good luck to you too in whatever you are doing.


but please do expand on how a "philosophy" of a school will have such an impact on your medical education.

seriously, I would throw up if a fellow interviewee tells me this at an interview.
 

Law2Doc

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bump.

is it worth paying an extra $100k to go to a school that you're pretty sure would make you substantially happier?

Perhaps, but odds are you really won't be substantially happier. The insides of libraries, classrooms and wards look pretty much the same wherever you go. When you are talking about schools not on opposite extremes in terms of what they can offer, you are probably better off saving the dough.
 
Perhaps, but odds are you really won't be substantially happier. The insides of libraries, classrooms and wards look pretty much the same wherever you go. When you are talking about schools not on opposite extremes in terms of what they can offer, you are probably better off saving the dough.
The schools might not be different, but imagine somebody who would rather be close to their family in good weather rather than 2000 miles away from home, in what might as well be the Arctic winter. That makes a big difference, IMO.
 

Doctor~Detroit

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The schools might not be different, but imagine somebody who would rather be close to their family in good weather rather than 2000 miles away from home, in what might as well be the Arctic winter. That makes a big difference, IMO.

this is more the nature of the difference i had in mind--those consequential to school location. the schools themselves would be comparable.
 
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