Is PGY3 the Future of Clinical Pharmacy Training?

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Didn't we discuss/beat this with a dead horse last year? Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I think that thread last year was on PGY2 year, this one is PGY3. Probably next year it will be about PGY4.

Honestly... Why not do what the nurses did and develop a practitioner degree and get that noticed?

Seriously, that is exactly what nurses did. Nurses wanted to be able to do everything a doctor does, without going to medical school, so the state nursing boards recognized their NP degree and granted them full prescribing rights, and medical boards had nothing to say about it. It seems completely crazy, but yeah, there is no reason why pharmacists or even anyone else with a state licensing board couldn't do the same thing. Not much different from states that give the same rights to "lay" midwives with pretty much no medical training as they do to CNM's. Is this good for public health? In most cases no....but this is the reality. Nobody is going to "give" pharmacists anything, if they want to be crazy and grab for stuff they will have to do it the way nurses did it.

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I think that thread last year was on PGY2 year, this one is PGY3. Probably next year it will be about PGY4.



Seriously, that is exactly what nurses did. Nurses wanted to be able to do everything a doctor does, without going to medical school, so the state nursing boards recognized their NP degree and granted them full prescribing rights, and medical boards had nothing to say about it. It seems completely crazy, but yeah, there is no reason why pharmacists or even anyone else with a state licensing board couldn't do the same thing. Not much different from states that give the same rights to "lay" midwives with pretty much no medical training as they do to CNM's. Is this good for public health? In most cases no....but this is the reality. Nobody is going to "give" pharmacists anything, if they want to be crazy and grab for stuff they will have to do it the way nurses did it.

I thought that was the entire point behind the mandatory PharmD. We kept getting told we were being trained for these jobs that are just around the corner. I guess we were (or are) so obsessed with expanding our training that we forgot to lobby for the right to use it.
 
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I thought that was the entire point behind the mandatory PharmD. We kept getting told we were being trained for these jobs that are just around the corner. I guess we were (or are) so obsessed with expanding our training that we forgot to lobby for the right to use it.

But that's not just pharmacy, it's every other profession out there.

Look at the fashion industry....unpaid internships are de facto now, and paid internships happen after completing programs.

Standard experience for the millennial crowd. It's the only way to deal with lack of actual jobs and demographic shifts. What once could be done on 3 years of college now requires 8.


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From what I have learned, more years of training (residency) means more financial reward in professional practice, at least for medical doctors, dentists, and nurses...

Is it the same with pharmacy?

That's not entirely true.

ID docs aren't rolling in the $$$


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From what I have learned, more years of training (residency) means more financial reward in professional practice, at least for medical doctors, dentists, and nurses...

Is it the same with pharmacy?

Do you live in California? If so, then yes, you will get typically get paid more working inpatient and clinical positions. You can thank Kaiser for creating a very competitive market in that state.

Do you live basically anywhere else? If so, then no, you will typically get paid significantly less than your retail counterpart.

It's counter-intuitive and feels silly that we take on additional training only to be paid less, but it makes sense when you realize pharmacists generate revenue by dispensing medications. The more clinically focused you are, the more you are seen as "cost savings" versus "profit producing." Pharmacists generally do residencies and work in clinical positions for the better quality of life or for enjoyment of the work. Read threads on here to see how rough life can be in a retail pharmacy. Personally, I was willing to take a 15k lower salary to work in pediatrics. I don't have the personality to handle retail work, no matter the pay.
 
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Do you live in California? If so, then yes, you will get typically get paid more working inpatient and clinical positions. You can thank Kaiser for creating a very competitive market in that state.

Do you live basically anywhere else? If so, then no, you will typically get paid significantly less than your retail counterpart.

It's counter-intuitive and feels silly that we take on additional training only to be paid less, but it makes sense when you realize pharmacists generate revenue by dispensing medications. The more clinically focused you are, the more you are seen as "cost savings" versus "profit producing." Pharmacists generally do residencies and work in clinical positions for the better quality of life or for enjoyment of the work. Read threads on here to see how rough life can be in a retail pharmacy. Personally, I was willing to take a 15k lower salary to work in pediatrics. I don't have the personality to handle retail work, no matter the pay.


Truth.
I love my job and would probably do it for a lot less money if I had to. The intellectual stimulation and fulfilling patient interactions certainly outweigh a retail setting/ for me. Personally.

Not everyone feels that way. My best friend from pharmacy school loves her job at Walgreens and found her hospital rotations "boring" - to each their own. And thankfully we all like different things :)


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But that's not just pharmacy, it's every other profession out there.

Look at the fashion industry....unpaid internships are de facto now, and paid internships happen after completing programs.

Standard experience for the millennial crowd. It's the only way to deal with lack of actual jobs and demographic shifts. What once could be done on 3 years of college now requires 8.


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The only exception to that seems to be with the tech industry. Now that they have been in a boom phase and software developers are hot commodities, companies pay $6k/month ($30-40/hr) to interns and hire those without a degree.

Pharmacy seems to follow a linear path of increasing education requirements over time, from B. Pharm to PharmD to now PGY1 for hospitals. The education requirements never seem to go down.
 
The only exception to that seems to be with the tech industry. Now that they have been in a boom phase and software developers are hot commodities, companies pay $6k/month ($30-40/hr) to interns and hire those without a degree.

I was around for .com bust 1.0, it was not pretty. Not pretty at all. That mass unemployment in tech was enough to turn me to healthcare as I entered undergraduate work.

I guess hindsight is 20/20, but if you were to go into that field 2000-2002, that required such a HUGE leap of faith, you really needed to like what you did and be prepared for low wage/unemployment.

It was that bad....people in the valley thought that was it, it was a fun ride...

Pharmacy seems to follow a linear path of increasing education requirements over time, from B. Pharm to PharmD to now PGY1 for hospitals. The education requirements never seem to go down.

See my other posts on this. Nope. It's the boomers who wrote their own checks back in the day and suddenly don't want to pay for things now.
 
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Looks like he took down the article. SDN and Reddit Pharmacy were too savage for him. Or maybe the physicians got wind of his article and started to trash talk him.

It looks like he also took down the article in which he mentioned that he was okay with students calling him "doctor" at the school but wanted them to refrain from doing so at the hospital. You can't eat your cake and have it too pal.
 
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Looks like he took down the article. SDN and Reddit Pharmacy were too savage for him. Or maybe the physicians got wind of his article and started to trash talk him.

It looks like he also took down the article in which he mentioned that he was okay with students calling him "doctor" at the school but wanted them to refrain from doing so at the hospital. You can't eat your cake and have it too pal.

Sweet user name, bro. Hmm account registered today just for this post? Hah, classic. Anyway, glad the guy felt the wrath of the internet and took down his article. Maybe if we continue to ridicule the idea of a PGY3 it will never take hold. I'm sure some big academic hospital system will eventually pioneer a PGY3 when they realize new pharmacists are desperate for any job and more credentials.

By the way, nothing wrong with being referred to as doctor by students in an academic setting. I think most of us agree that it's inappropriate in a clinical setting because the expectations are different and you would be misrepresenting yourself.
 
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Interestingly enough, when physicians introduce me to patients they introduce me as "dr njac" about 60% of the time


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I should have went with Pharce Doctor or PHARCE-D. Too Late.
Interestingly enough, when physicians introduce me to patients they introduce me as "dr njac" about 60% of the time


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I gotta give props to these docs for humoring us pharmacists (and pharmacy students.)

So do you get to bill the patients for your service or do you bill the doctors who ask for your help?
 
From what I have learned, more years of training (residency) means more financial reward in professional practice, at least for medical doctors, dentists, and nurses...
Is it the same with pharmacy?

In general, NO. Retail pharmacists tend to make considerably more than hospital phamarcists, and even plain hospital pharmacists tend to make slightly more than "clinical" pharmacists. Pharmacists who do a residency are doing so for job satisfaction, not for increased salary.
 
I should have went with Pharce Doctor or PHARCE-D. Too Late.

I gotta give props to these docs for humoring us pharmacists (and pharmacy students.)

So do you get to bill the patients for your service or do you bill the doctors who ask for your help?
PharceD is pretty good tbh
 
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In general, NO. Retail pharmacists tend to make considerably more than hospital phamarcists, and even plain hospital pharmacists tend to make slightly more than "clinical" pharmacists. Pharmacists who do a residency are doing so for job satisfaction, not for increased salary.
no exactly true - I made 130 k last year before OT - my buddies in retail in my area made 135-140 (at major chain)- but got 3-4 weeks less PDO

but I do agree with your last statement about job satisfaction
 
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I should have went with Pharce Doctor or PHARCE-D. Too Late.

I gotta give props to these docs for humoring us pharmacists (and pharmacy students.)

So do you get to bill the patients for your service or do you bill the doctors who ask for your help?
our amb care rph's get to bill - it is considerably less than a MD visit - but it does pay their salary (especially considering the fact the clinic was set up as a cost avoidance)
 
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no exactly true - I made 130 k last year before OT - my buddies in retail in my area made 135-140 (at major chain)- but got 3-4 weeks less PDO

but I do agree with your last statement about job satisfaction

It's the benefits that really make hospital jobs appealing. It's why so many retail pharmacists burn out and try to move to hospital after a few years. You will likely take a pay cut starting out, but honestly if you are still making >100k/year it is hard to feel too bad for you.

I bring in around 110k/year in a low cost of living area, have 6.5 weeks of vacation per year, my job is relatively low stress, I can leave early or take a personal day if I need to, manage to hit the gym on my lunch break every day, have my own office with my very own chair. I have friends that easily make 20k+ more than me per year, but they hate their job and are always stressed out. It took me a few years to get to this point, but in the end I would say it was worth it.
 
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It's the benefits that really make hospital jobs appealing. It's why so many retail pharmacists burn out and try to move to hospital after a few years. You will likely take a pay cut starting out, but honestly if you are still making >100k/year it is hard to feel too bad for you.

I bring in around 110k/year in a low cost of living area, have 6.5 weeks of vacation per year, my job is relatively low stress, I can leave early or take a personal day if I need to, manage to hit the gym on my lunch break every day, have my own office with my very own chair. I have friends that easily make 20k+ more than me per year, but they hate their job and are always stressed out. It took me a few years to get to this point, but in the end I would say it was worth it.

I haven't really seen any "how do i get out of hospital?" threads on here....but then again SDN isn't *that* representative of the general population, i guess.
 
I haven't really seen any "how do i get out of hospital?" threads on here....but then again SDN isn't *that* representative of the general population, i guess.
I'm sure I've seen those threads on here before, but maybe they aren't that common. I've seen the sentiment in my personal life several times. People who are often very intelligent and high performers in pharmacy school deciding they want a change in lifestyle. I think the allure of a higher salary starts to diminish after a few years.
 
I'm sure I've seen those threads on here before, but maybe they aren't that common. I've seen the sentiment in my personal life several times. People who are often very intelligent and high performers in pharmacy school deciding they want a change in lifestyle. I think the allure of a higher salary starts to diminish after a few years.

Because you can always spend a higher salary. And the difference in "things" between 110k and 130k isn't really that much. As long as you don't "need" a McManson or a leased BMW.
 

What's sad is that people like him really think they are pushing the profession forward and that creating PGY3 programs is going to be some revolution, meanwhile it would just continue devaluing the PharmD and make future pharmacists have to work even more for the same reward (or less). This is cart before the horse thinking, which pharmacy has been doing for a long time. We should wait until there is an actual need before we start pushing for these things.

Hmm.. maybe the new schools are so terrible and the students they admit too incompetent to practice after graduation. Maybe they really need all of this extra training. I did once work with a guy who was finishing his PGY1 and was considering a PGY2 simply because he felt like he wasn't ready to start working in a clinical hybrid position.
 
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Here's a real essay I would pay money to read:

"Consistently hiring solid-working, no-drama pharmacists from the hundreds of applications on your desk: A Practical Perspective."

In the end, I don't give a ($#* about the person's background besides:
1. They do the job
2. They don't create drama (this is beyond good manners and professionalism)
3. They stay in the job long enough to make the hire worth it (and yes, I will avoid hiring someone that I get the impression that they are not engaged or a short-timer unless that expectation is mutually on the table.)

If the candidate wants to subsidize their own training in years of residency, great. But, I'm also very concerned with their ability to deal with practical day-to-day trench work realities with the task and also the ability to form productive working relationships with others without causing political drama. Whenever I have to go as an auditor, it amazes me that considering what the market is now, we still can't find good pharmacist help paying $55 an hour. But of the three, I find that hiring for character and competence to be a much harder problem than credentials. The entire point of credentialing was supposed to serve as a surrogate for those two, but with everyone doing them now and there are not real quality enforcement standards beyond word of mouth, we're back to square one.

PGY-1,2, or #*$ing 10 in the case of MD/PhD Tropical Medicine, the resources in training are a complete waste if the person receiving the training is fundamentally useless or crazy. Essays like PGY-3 forget that the work is not the chasing of credentials, it's the work. Is the work of sufficient quality that it's professional (as in you get paid for it) rather than an occupational hobby? Is the work from additional training clearly distinguishable from a learned amateur?
 
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"Consistently hiring solid-working, no-drama pharmacists from the hundreds of applications on your desk: A Practical Perspective."
Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.
 
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Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.

How do you know so much about me???


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Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.

Sadly this is the case with pretty much all new floaters.
 
Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.

Speak for yourself. I feel like I'm pretty well rounded and I hate drama. Don't see myself getting put on seroquel any time soon....
 
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Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.

I like to believe that Pharmacy school fvcked with all of our heads to this point, personally.

I believe it to be true. Life goes on :D
 
I like to believe that Pharmacy school fvcked with all of our heads to this point, personally.

I believe it to be true. Life goes on :D

Yeah, gotta say that pharmacy schools probably play a big role in this - from who they accept into the schools to the way they indoctrinate pharmacy students.
 
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Speak for yourself. I feel like I'm pretty well rounded and I hate drama. Don't see myself getting put on seroquel any time soon....

I feel the same way about myself. Either we are the exceptions (must be some, right?) or we don't realize our own dysfunction. :p
 
Talk about an impossible task. How rare is it to find a down to earth pharmacist without some sort of issue? We all are emotionally disturbed, have some sort of inferiority complex, or are constantly finding something to create a problem out of. I don't know what it is about this profession, but the majority of pharmacists I've worked with have had something wrong with them.

My dad is a pharmacy manager. When you talk about sports, movies, food, people, history, etc. he seems like a normal dude that you could hang out with. But when you bring up his job or pharmacy in general, he's a completely different person, completely angry or bitter. Its kind of scary.
 
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Speak for yourself. I feel like I'm pretty well rounded and I hate drama. Don't see myself getting put on seroquel any time soon....

I feel like I'm pretty down to earth as well. except for my stupid sense of humor and low tolerance for bull****. I just feel like I work with so many people who have something to prove. They try so hard to make everything think they are smart, which usually results in people rolling their eyes. Oh, and the people who will constantly find something to complain about even when everything is fine. Oh god, my blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

I really could never be a manager. I couldn't imagine dealing with whiny employees complaining about non-issues all day.
 
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On the topic of PGY3s, we have a responsibility to boycott these types of programs. If everyone here as a last resort refused to hire anyone with a PGY3 (outside of being a regular staff pharmacist) I think those programs would shut down fairly quickly.
 
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Good point. However I won't hold out for that plan to be successful

I'm not hiring ANYONE with a PGY3. No exceptions, outside of completing a PGY3 officially bestowing a MD degree (in family medicine/internal medicine/general practice) to us.
 
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I'm sure I've seen those threads on here before, but maybe they aren't that common. I've seen the sentiment in my personal life several times. People who are often very intelligent and high performers in pharmacy school deciding they want a change in lifestyle. I think the allure of a higher salary starts to diminish after a few years.

Some of the clinical pharmacists that I work with are some of the hardest people to get along with that I've ever met...and I'm a pretty laid back dude.

It's almost as if they are too smart for their own good. Absolutely no soft skills what so ever...

The old timers always seem like the most level headed human beings in the building.
 
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As someone currently driving to a PGY-1 interview, I do think a PGY-3 would be a bit of overkill in most scenarios. With that being said, I wanted to discredit some of these umbrella ideas of why students pursue residencies, and give you the reason I think it is important for my development.

1. Specializing: I have wanted to specialize since P2 year. I did not know what a residency was coming into pharmacy school, but fell in love with it when specialists came to teach lectures. Do I think I would be able to specialize in the timeframe that I have set out for myself without a residency? No. Does that make me not motivated? No. Do I think I would be a competent, critically thinking pharmacist without a residency? Yes. Would I succeed without a residency? Yes. Would I rather make a regular salary of a pharmacist rather than a reduced rate? Yes. Is it a sacrifice I'm knowingly willing to make? Yes. Am I scared about saturation, and wanting to specialize because of that? No (this is not saying it does not exist, but as mentioned highly motivated people find ways) Do I want to be a physician? Hell no. Do I think NP's and PA's are more integral to the team? No. I just wanted to highlight those points that sometimes I think people take for granted. This idea that highly, motivated residency candidates/residents want to be "physician-like" is completely unfounded.

2. Research: I thoroughly enjoy research. Do I think it's going to shatter the world of pharmacy? No. However, I think residency training at large academic medical centers will definitely hone my skills in research. Not saying it does not exist, but I personally have not seen many pharmacists without residency/fellowship training heavily involved in research. This is not a slight by any means as I obviously have limited exposure being a fourth year student, but it is enough exposure where I feel this training will be instrumental in achieving my career aspirations.

3. Academia: I thoroughly enjoy teaching, however, I have good self-awareness and feel it is something I need to practice. Although there are other forums to do this, I feel that residency will help me develop these skills. I also want to be an adjunct faculty member at a college of pharmacist associated with an academic medical center. Once again, I think further training will expedite this process.

4. Professional development: The transition from student to pharmacist is going to be difficult as all of you know. Would I sink without residency? No. I feel extremely well-equipped with my education and work experience. However, I looked for programs with large residency classes so I can go through this process with others and learn not only from my mistakes, but from theirs as well.

Sorry for long post, but wanted to make it clear that there are myriad candidates who are pursuing residency for reasons outside of "staying out of retail". Which for the record, I thoroughly enjoyed my time working in retail and I enjoy seeing the look on the interviewers faces when I say that at these large programs! The long post can also probably be attributed to the fact that I've driven 34 hours since Sunday.

Cheers!
 
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As someone currently driving to a PGY-1 interview, I do think a PGY-3 would be a bit of overkill in most scenarios. With that being said, I wanted to discredit some of these umbrella ideas of why students pursue residencies, and give you the reason I think it is important for my development.

...words...

You make very good points and I'm not going to try to argue against them. However, we have to face the reality of this job market. You say you want to specialize, you like to do research, you enjoy teaching.. all great points and things that a residency are PERFECT for! The problem is that residency has become the baseline expectation for any sort of hospital work. I know we like to blow up our egos, overstate our importance.. but the PharmD is more than sufficient for an entry-level hospital position.

It's a shame that PGY1 has become a required credential to work in a hospital across the country. People like you who are willing to sacrifice to gain specialized skills often find yourself in a job that does not line up with your expectations. You are overly trained in a skill that you almost never use, and are barely trained in the skills you will need every day. Hell.. and that's if you get a good residency.

I'm not going to pretend that I've never known someone to get a PGY1 and move directly into a specialty position, because I have seen that happen. If you are ambitious and willing to fight for what you want then you absolutely can find the kind of job you want. I have just seen too many people go through the pain of a residency just to find themselves working alongside new grads. I've worked with people who were very unsatisfied with what they found after putting in that actual work.

I guess that goes back to the thing we keep harping on. You gotta hustle in pharmacy these days. Make connections, develop relationships, and make hard calls to get what you want. I would hope anyone who is willing to go through a PGY1 (much less a PGY2.. and yes, I know PGY2 pharmacists who are underpaid and doing staffing shifts alongside new grads who never had to sacrifice their health or income) would be willing to find that perfect job.

That's just the problem with pharmacy. We keep creating new credentials, more training, more prestige.. and then present the same old opportunities. It's pharmacists making other pharmacists jump through hoops. If we weren't so insecure perhaps we would stop making new credentials to make ourselves feel superior to the next generation. I keep seeing job requirements jump, and yet the new hires are at the same level as the old ones if not worse.

Good luck on your residency interviews.

This is SDN. Don't you DARE be positive!!

Hah.. anyway, yeah, good luck man. It's rough out there and we gotta watch out for each other.
 
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As someone currently driving to a PGY-1 interview, I do think a PGY-3 would be a bit of overkill in most scenarios. With that being said, I wanted to discredit some of these umbrella ideas of why students pursue residencies, and give you the reason I think it is important for my development.

1. Specializing: I have wanted to specialize since P2 year. I did not know what a residency was coming into pharmacy school, but fell in love with it when specialists came to teach lectures. Do I think I would be able to specialize in the timeframe that I have set out for myself without a residency? No. Does that make me not motivated? No. Do I think I would be a competent, critically thinking pharmacist without a residency? Yes. Would I succeed without a residency? Yes. Would I rather make a regular salary of a pharmacist rather than a reduced rate? Yes. Is it a sacrifice I'm knowingly willing to make? Yes. Am I scared about saturation, and wanting to specialize because of that? No (this is not saying it does not exist, but as mentioned highly motivated people find ways) Do I want to be a physician? Hell no. Do I think NP's and PA's are more integral to the team? No. I just wanted to highlight those points that sometimes I think people take for granted. This idea that highly, motivated residency candidates/residents want to be "physician-like" is completely unfounded.

2. Research: I thoroughly enjoy research. Do I think it's going to shatter the world of pharmacy? No. However, I think residency training at large academic medical centers will definitely hone my skills in research. Not saying it does not exist, but I personally have not seen many pharmacists without residency/fellowship training heavily involved in research. This is not a slight by any means as I obviously have limited exposure being a fourth year student, but it is enough exposure where I feel this training will be instrumental in achieving my career aspirations.

3. Academia: I thoroughly enjoy teaching, however, I have good self-awareness and feel it is something I need to practice. Although there are other forums to do this, I feel that residency will help me develop these skills. I also want to be an adjunct faculty member at a college of pharmacist associated with an academic medical center. Once again, I think further training will expedite this process.

4. Professional development: The transition from student to pharmacist is going to be difficult as all of you know. Would I sink without residency? No. I feel extremely well-equipped with my education and work experience. However, I looked for programs with large residency classes so I can go through this process with others and learn not only from my mistakes, but from theirs as well.

Sorry for long post, but wanted to make it clear that there are myriad candidates who are pursuing residency for reasons outside of "staying out of retail". Which for the record, I thoroughly enjoyed my time working in retail and I enjoy seeing the look on the interviewers faces when I say that at these large programs! The long post can also probably be attributed to the fact that I've driven 34 hours since Sunday.

Cheers!

1. I have my own private thoughts about it, but that's probably the best argument for a residency. I prefer the working apprenticeship like how BCNP's are made (meaning that you're learning at night while you're a full-fledged day pharmacist), but to each their own.

2. I disagree. If you like research, do the PhD. PharmD Pharmacist researchers are generally thought of as fairly unproductive in both impact in topical choice, and most importantly in funding success. The good ones are the exception, not the rule. The training difference is far too vast between a residency and a PhD track even for the soft majors. You just don't get around the contact requirements and the depth of exposure in a residency than a PhD.

3. Nope. Most colleges of pharmacy force PharmD's at all levels to be on clinical (i.e. expendable) track. Good luck trying to get funded as a straight PharmD and even better trying to secure lab space if 2 is an issue. @297point1 might beg to differ with me, but I consider the PharmD clinical track a very different deal (not necessarily worse, but not as grounded) than the tenure track. Clinical track has the advantage of allowing you to leave, but clinical track has the disadvantage of you being a denizen in the department, not a citizen like the governing tenured faculty (and we can quibble about how far those rights go, but I know from experience that we have to be much more careful about being patently unfair with tenure-track faculty than clinical).

4. And that might be a PGY-1 concern, but a PGY-3, it's hard to say unless it's not a straight pharmacy residency but something more substantial.

Residents are professionals when it comes to care (but there are limits), but are dilettantes when it comes to research and pedagogy. But also (I really should pull the numbers), the number of revolving PharmD faculty is far higher than with the PhDs. Then again, you're much more job locked as a PhD, so if you get into a university or a laboratory where everyone hates each other and you hate life, it's much harder to walk than a pharmacist does with their clinical practice.

Reason #1 is more than sufficient in this day and though. I wish you luck in your interviews, and hope you don't interview with me as I'll get a cold chill (yes, I have interviewed SDN people before...).
 
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Why would I disagree with you at all? You are correct.

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around the concept of a PGY3. If that is necessary, the whole stated rationale for justifying the move from a 5 year degree to a 6 year degree (extra skills! stronger clinical base! more ready to enter the workforce!) is starting to look like swiss cheese and smell like limburger cheese.
 
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Why would I disagree with you at all? You are correct.

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around the concept of a PGY3. If that is necessary, the whole stated rationale for justifying the move from a 5 year degree to a 6 year degree (extra skills! stronger clinical base! more ready to enter the workforce!) is starting to look like swiss cheese and smell like limburger cheese.


My biggest beef with my last year clinicals it is technically a mini residency (had several great sites but not all at the same place so initial learning process). Yet even tho you have experience doing anticoagulation, vancomycin and aminoglycoside dosing, rounds, etc. you still have to jump through the hoops of residency for most hospital jobs.


I get that it is a direct result of supply/demand but man it's getting crazy as salaries stagnate and cost of attendance/loans continue to climb. From the employer prospective it makes sense to continue with current system. Just so many other routes that are better financially. It's clear pharmacy isn't a golden goose and I hope people stop going 150-200K + in debt for a job that 40 hours isn't guaranteed off the bat now and most likely will just get worse in future. When the trend is to hire new grads or grads out for 1 year as managers you know there is a problem.
 
What on earth has happened to the pharmacy curriculum that P4s are now unprepared for pharmacy practice? Either these schools are feeding lies to students or the accrediting board is somehow lowering standards across the country.
 
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One thing that I still cannot figure out... why do residents have to work under a pharmacist if they have their own active license? Is this a legal thing or a matter of hospital policy? They obviously don't have to be under direct supervision 24/7 like an intern (though nobody pays attention to me when I'm talking to patients anyways) but I'm told that a resident cannot be the only pharmacist on duty/only pharmacist in the pharmacy.

Also, whats the point of spending 45 hours a week at rotation all of P4 if the rational for residency is that you need practical experience? Wouldn't anyone with common sense who wants to work in a hospital schedule hospital rotations? I feel like I'm surrounded by pharmacists who did 2 years of residency in order to calculate a vanco dose and look at a CrCl that the computer automatically calculates for them anyways. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'll be honest I never thought I'd consider hospital, and I hated my current rotation at first, but there are some aspects of the job that I actually found interesting/enjoyable. The problem is the load of bullcrap you have to do to get a residency, the residency itself, you get screwed in terms of pay, and quite honestly it didn't take me long to realize that nurses and doctors are miserable people to work with. I'm a chill person who doesn't stress out... I couldn't imagine doing some of the passive aggressive crap that these nurses pull. One of them goes out of her way to intentionally mess things up for me it's just stupid.
 
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One thing that I still cannot figure out... why do residents have to work under a pharmacist if they have their own active license? Is this a legal thing or a matter of hospital policy? They obviously don't have to be under direct supervision 24/7 like an intern (though nobody pays attention to me when I'm talking to patients anyways) but I'm told that a resident cannot be the only pharmacist on duty/only pharmacist in the pharmacy.

Also, whats the point of spending 45 hours a week at rotation all of P4 if the rational for residency is that you need practical experience? Wouldn't anyone with common sense who wants to work in a hospital schedule hospital rotations? I feel like I'm surrounded by pharmacists who did 2 years of residency in order to calculate a vanco dose and look at a CrCl that the computer automatically calculates for them anyways. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'll be honest I never thought I'd consider hospital, and I hated my current rotation at first, but there are some aspects of the job that I actually found interesting/enjoyable. The problem is the load of bullcrap you have to do to get a residency, the residency itself, you get screwed in terms of pay, and quite honestly it didn't take me long to realize that nurses and doctors are miserable people to work with. I'm a chill person who doesn't stress out... I couldn't imagine doing some of the passive aggressive crap that these nurses pull. One of them goes out of her way to intentionally mess things up for me it's just stupid.
I feel like you're joking about the CrCl line but considering I've gotten props on some of my clinical rotations for manually calculating it baffles me. I thought I was an idiot if I didn't know it.
 
1. I have my own private thoughts about it, but that's probably the best argument for a residency. I prefer the working apprenticeship like how BCNP's are made (meaning that you're learning at night while you're a full-fledged day pharmacist), but to each their own.

2. I disagree. If you like research, do the PhD. PharmD Pharmacist researchers are generally thought of as fairly unproductive in both impact in topical choice, and most importantly in funding success. The good ones are the exception, not the rule. The training difference is far too vast between a residency and a PhD track even for the soft majors. You just don't get around the contact requirements and the depth of exposure in a residency than a PhD.
You hit this one out of the ballpark. @pharmrx33 is kidding himself if he thinks the PharmD or PGY-1,2,3 residency is gonna make him close to being as useful as a PhD or an MD when it comes to cutting edge research.

I had the unfortunate experience of going to a research symposium at the school of pharmacy a few months ago. The PhD students had some really interesting research topics and it was a joy to talk with them during the poster presentation. However, when I went the section cordoned off for the pharmacy residents, I was unprepared for how infantile their projects were.
  • One dude had a project in which he found that putting a pamphlet at the Rx register made people more aware of vaccines. (You guessed it. This was a community pharmacy resident!)
  • Another dude found that medical staff at a hospital were ordering a certain medication at a lower-than-recommended dosage because the hospital carried two volumes of this med and they were too lazy to waste the leftover amount of the larger dosageform. This resident called his research "eye-opening".

They actually had dude #2 present his "research" at the auditorium. I don't know which part was more cringe-worthy: when the emcee introduced him as Dr. ABC or when no one had any questions to ask him at the end. This was in stark contrast to the excitement that attendees had when they barraged the previous presenter about his project.

Mind you, this is at a world class research institution at a public state university where professors and their graduate students were working on million dollar projects funded by chemical companies and various government agencies. Representatives from various drug companies and professors from the various departments were talking with the PhD students while crickets could be heard from the PharmD section.
 
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