Is research necessary during general surgery residency?

[mryoshi13]

Hello,
I am a MS3 considering general surgery. I was wondering if the 2-3 year mandatory research track many of the top general surgery residencies have are really necessary if you are interested in competitive fellowships afterwards? Where can you find a list of programs where that is NOT necessary? I have a graduate degree and have published numerous papers and patents and the last thing I want to do is do another 3 years of research in my mid 30s. Don't get me wrong, I love research but I also love the rest of my life... Thanks for your input!

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[Blade28]

Hello,
I am a MS3 considering general surgery. I was wondering if the 2-3 year mandatory research track many of the top general surgery residencies have are really necessary if you are interested in competitive fellowships afterwards? Where can you find a list of programs where that is NOT necessary? I have a graduate degree and have published numerous papers and patents and the last thing I want to do is do another 3 years of research in my mid 30s. Don't get me wrong, I love research but I also love the rest of my life... Thanks for your input!

We discuss research a little here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5496449#post5496449

Traditionally, the toughest fellowships to get into are Peds, Plastics and Surg Onc. Vascular and CT Surg are variable, depending on the program.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I feel for ya...

I spent a lifetime doing research before medical school yet was told that to be competitive for Plastics, I needed to go back into the lab. For some reason, my previous work didn't "count"...perhaps because it wasn't in the field. I thought the purpose of the lab was to learn how to run a lab, write grants, etc. but apparently it has become just another hoop to jump through...
I wasn't willing to do it, on the off chance that it might improve my ability to match.

There are specialties in which it is not necessary to do lab time to obtain a fellowship; and there are others, as Blade notes, in which it pretty much seems mandatory, even for people like you and I.

 

[Blade28]

I thought the purpose of the lab was to learn how to run a lab, write grants, etc. but apparently it has become just another hoop to jump through...

Those are some of my goals during these next two years in lab:

*Write and receive a grant
*Publish a ton (5 papers in the works so far)
*Present at scientic meetings/conferences
*Learn basic lab techniques (PCR, Western blot, etc. in my lab)
*Attempt to retain some modicum of technical skill by doing lung transplants in rats

 

[Winged Scapula]

Those are some of my goals during these next two years in lab:

*Write and receive a grant
*Publish a ton (5 papers in the works so far)
*Present at scientic meetings/conferences
*Learn basic lab techniques (PCR, Western blot, etc. in my lab)
*Attempt to retain some modicum of technical skill by doing lung transplants in rats

Exactly. So it didn't make much sense to me to "reinvent the wheel" (ie, learn what I'd already done in my previous career) in an attempt to "prove" I was good enough for a fellowship. Since I've known others in the same position, it appears, to me at least, that lab time simply becomes another way to evaluate candidates rather than for the purpose of learning itself.

prolly just sour grapes on my part!

 

[Pilot Doc]

last thing I want to do is do another 3 years of research in my mid 30s. Don't get me wrong, I love research but I also love the rest of my life... Thanks for your input!

3 years of research is unusual, even at research heavy programs. 2 is fairly common though. It's also rare to have a program that absoultely requires research. Most are flexible if your plan synchs with their need for clinical residents. The bigger the program, the easier it is.

Another plus for research, if you're lucky enough to do it in the field of your eventual fellowship, is meeting people and making a name for yourself. I think a lot of fellowships get landed when someone's research mentor calls their buddy at Univ of X and says, "remember Joe, he needs a spot. You've got one? Great, thanks. So how are Margie and the kids..."

 

[Blade28]

prolly just sour grapes on my part!

So speaks the attending about to finally start living her dream...

 

[Winged Scapula]

So speaks the attending about to finally start living her dream...

Yeah....living the dream! (finally got my AZ license today)

 

[Blade28]

Yeah....living the dream! (finally got my AZ license today)

Nice! Congrats! About time.

 

[Misterioso]

I feel for ya...

I spent a lifetime doing research before medical school yet was told that to be competitive for Plastics, I needed to go back into the lab. For some reason, my previous work didn't "count"...perhaps because it wasn't in the field. I thought the purpose of the lab was to learn how to run a lab, write grants, etc. but apparently it has become just another hoop to jump through...

Word. Med students and residents doing research is mainly nothing but another way for them to pad the old resume. You think they actually care about the function of Transcription Factor ZX5YD19 or whatever esoteric junk they write about in those papers? Heck no, all they care about is to have their name attached to some publications so they can say they've done research too. It's like when we volunteered at the community hospital when we were premeds so we could add it to our applications. Don't think so? Well wait until they get that residency or fellowship they did research for in order to get...they'll never step inside a lab again.

 

[boston]

Word. Med students and residents doing research is mainly nothing but another way for them to pad the old resume. You think they actually care about the function of Transcription Factor ZX5YD19 or whatever esoteric junk they write about in those papers? Heck no, all they care about is to have their name attached to some publications so they can say they've done research too. It's like when we volunteered at the community hospital when we were premeds so we could add it to our applications. Don't think so? Well wait until they get that residency or fellowship they did research for in order to get...they'll never step inside a lab again.

Perhaps you are just trying to be provocative or perhaps your cynicism is genuine. There is admittedly some truth to what you say. But you are over-generalizing. It may not be a majority, but there are those who are truly interested in the scientific question at hand. And they will pursue a surgeon-scientist career because their interest is directing research in that field in the future. The world is often far larger than the conceptions of an individual.

 

[Misterioso]

Perhaps you are just trying to be provocative or perhaps your cynicism is genuine. There is admittedly some truth to what you say. But you are over-generalizing. It may not be a majority, but there are those who are truly interested in the scientific question at hand. And they will pursue a surgeon-scientist career because their interest is directing research in that field in the future. The world is often far larger than the conceptions of an individual.

I hear what you're saying. Of course people who pursue MD/PhD or want to dedicate their careers to being physician-scientists are actually interested in research. But we're talking about the overwhelming majority of residents who never done a day of research and who don't actually like it suddenly becoming "interested" in research after PGY2. Yeah right. Anyone with a bit of common sense knows this "interest" is just a facade so they can get their names on some papers because almost everyone else applying for that fellowship has done the same. Just following the herd. If you told them they had to work at a sandwich shop for a year to be more competetive for the fellowship then you'd see an increase in the number of residents taking time off after the PGY2 to make your subs.

 

[mryoshi13]

Just following the herd. If you told them they had to work at a sandwich shop for a year to be more competetive for the fellowship then you'd see an increase in the number of residents taking time off after the PGY2 to make your subs.

I don't know why but that was #$#%ing hillarious! Man, I hope that doesn't happen because then I'd be screwed!