Is the military really so bad?

[sawoobley]

I have read many posts on SDN and talked to students who have thoroughly investigated the HPSP program (Navy) and I find it rather confusing.
Most people agree that unless you have a strong affinity for the military you should not enter HPSP. However, when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.
It makes me wonder if most of the complaining on SDN comes from either people who do not have any real experience in the HPSP or are part of the 15% of individuals you may term as complainers. On the other hand if someone goes through HPSP and has a good experience and his loans are paid off will he then return to SDN and talk about his experience? Or will he move on to bigger and better things?
I have been toying with the idea of entering HPSP because I will have 250-300k is debt by the time medical school is over and I am almost certainly going into Family Medicine. In addition, the military does a great service for our country and I would not mind being a part of it. It seems like HPSP can be a good program to enter if your self-motivated and are going to make the most out of every opportunity they give you.
I know there are some problems with bureaucracy and some people have issues with the lifestyle of living in the military. But, isn't it worth it? Don't they provide you with great training and incentives and you end up debt free?

I almost want to believe...

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[NavyFP]

I have read many posts on SDN and talked to students who have thoroughly investigated the HPSP program (Navy) and I find it rather confusing.
Most people agree that unless you have a strong affinity for the military you should not enter HPSP. However, when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.
It makes me wonder if most of the complaining on SDN comes from either people who do not have any real experience in the HPSP or are part of the 15% of individuals you may term as complainers. On the other hand if someone goes through HPSP and has a good experience and his loans are paid off will he then return to SDN and talk about his experience? Or will he move on to bigger and better things?
I have been toying with the idea of entering HPSP because I will have 250-300k is debt by the time medical school is over and I am almost certainly going into Family Medicine. In addition, the military does a great service for our country and I would not mind being a part of it. It seems like HPSP can be a good program to enter if your self-motivated and are going to make the most out of every opportunity they give you.
I know there are some problems with bureaucracy and some people have issues with the lifestyle of living in the military. But, isn't it worth it? Don't they provide you with great training and incentives and you end up debt free?

I almost want to believe...

There are plenty of people who have done HPSP and not left the system angry and bitter. They usually don't post here.

If you truly want to be a Family Med doc, the Navy(and so is the Army, AF hit and miss) is a great place to do it. I would stack our programs up against any in the country. If you are flexible and have a desire to serve, you could have a great experience with HPSP.

 

[FutureNavyFP]

I have read many posts on SDN and talked to students who have thoroughly investigated the HPSP program (Navy) and I find it rather confusing.
Most people agree that unless you have a strong affinity for the military you should not enter HPSP. However, when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.
It makes me wonder if most of the complaining on SDN comes from either people who do not have any real experience in the HPSP or are part of the 15% of individuals you may term as complainers. On the other hand if someone goes through HPSP and has a good experience and his loans are paid off will he then return to SDN and talk about his experience? Or will he move on to bigger and better things?
I have been toying with the idea of entering HPSP because I will have 250-300k is debt by the time medical school is over and I am almost certainly going into Family Medicine. In addition, the military does a great service for our country and I would not mind being a part of it. It seems like HPSP can be a good program to enter if your self-motivated and are going to make the most out of every opportunity they give you.
I know there are some problems with bureaucracy and some people have issues with the lifestyle of living in the military. But, isn't it worth it? Don't they provide you with great training and incentives and you end up debt free?

I almost want to believe...

You are trying to open a can of worms pretty early this morning. I will try and give you some nice conversation before the other, more cranky, guys wake up. It seems like some of the more vocal guys that are negative have alot of issues with the military. Here are a couple of common ones:

1. GMO tours. It seems like there are a few guys on here that are surgical or other competative specialties. It has been my experience with surgeons that they HATE the clinic almost universally. I could only imagine what getting the scalpel taken away and being sentenced to clinic duty for 2-4+ years would do to the moral of a surgeon. If you or I would have to do a GMO tour we would, in essence, be doing what we want anyways. There is some thread somewhere where an airforce guy was flaming AF primary care, but if I had to wake up in the AF every day I think I would be pissed too.

2.Money. Our salaries as FP guys will be quickly become competetive with the civilian sector (a general statement). Surgeons and other specialties will have a much wider margin.

There are many other reasons, but I have to go.

 

[Percival]

Another guy on another thread said some great advice: "Join the military program as a physician only if you're the type of guy that would join even if you were NOT a physician." I have 5 years active duty as an Armor officer and about 5 months of service in the National Guard. I'm an M1 now. I can tell you that the Army has been good to me and my wife. I've met good people. I still keep in touch with many of them. I think that our healthcare system is world class -- especially for combat care.

You sound like you have a good attitude. GO FOR IT. You may have a lot of unanswered questions, but that's OK. Like all other jobs, it's all about the attitude going into it. You'll do great.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

The clouds part for a moment on SDN, and an optimistic medical student who thinks he wants to join the military speaks. Good for you! In the next 2 days this thread will deteriorate but I say again--good for you.

 

[IgD]

I read one time that a military clinic was telling family members appointments weren't available because the providers were deployed and to call back next month. Instead of giving them a deferral to the network they were guilting them by appealing to their sense of patriotism.

I think its good to be a patriot but we need to be honest and proactive in dealing with the issues we face. Some of the stuff that goes on here is venting but issues that have been validated by professional associations, government investigations and the media are brought up as well.

To me the bottom line with succeeding in the military is being flexible. Can you embrace change? If the military gave you orders to move next week to the other side of the world could you handle it? Could you tolerate it if you didn't match for FP and were sent to a 2-3 year GMO tour? What if a new department head shows up and starts changing the clinic operating procedures?

 

[Mirror Form]

My experience is that people tend to love the Army during med school. Then afterward most docs tend to count down the days until their commitment is up.

 

[Perrotfish]

My experience is that people tend to love the Army during med school. Then afterward most docs tend to count down the days until their commitment is up.

I´m not sure I´d argue this, but I definitely know several ex milimed docs (the majority of ex milimed docs I know personally) who strongly feel that overall the good during medical school, residency, and the pride afterwards outweighed the bad during the attending years (amoung those who saw it as bad, I know a few who loved every minute). If the opinions that dominate this forum were universal amoung the docs I spoke to personally I probably wouldn´t be subjecting myself to MEPS next week.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I´m not sure I´d argue this, but I definitely know several ex milimed docs (the majority of ex milimed docs I know personally) who strongly feel that overall the good during medical school, residency, and the pride afterwards outweighed the bad during the attending years (amoung those who saw it as bad, I know a few who loved every minute). If the opinions that dominate this forum were universal amoung the docs I spoke to personally I probably wouldn´t be subjecting myself to MEPS next week.

Oh man--PLEASE give a "What MEPS was like" report when you are done. That should be good for some laughs.

 

[Jolie South]

Oh man--PLEASE give a "What MEPS was like" report when you are done. That should be good for some laughs.

Gross incompetence at best.

yea, so the first time i went for the full physical it wasn't that bad, but I've heard stories about officers and enlisteds getting different treatment. I DEFINITELY did NOT experience this. I was the only officer, rather the only person over the age of 18 there, and was treated as if I was the same as the next run of the mill "barely finished high school" enlisted. even so, it wasn't too bad that day. i was in and out by 11 am.

Later, I had to go back for a consult and that was complete and utter ridiculousness. I had LASIK, so they wanted me to get an optho consult which didn't bother me as I was actually wanting to know the state of my eyes since I had the surgery (over 3 years ago). I get there and wait about 2 hours for no good reason, but still not too perturbed.

I go on the consult and come back. This is when the madness starts. I wait 4 hours for someone to take a look at my chart for 1 minute and then DQ me!! This is of course after the optho gives me an all clear and says I look perfect. Then, the CMO proceeds to a.) violate my privacy by discussing my file in front of 5 other people and b.) give me an unsatisfactory explanation without even thoroughly reading my file. There was some vague mention of paperwork lacking, but I had all pre-op paperwork, wave diagrams of my corneas, vision tests, and post-op results all in one packet that totaled 25 pages in length. I forgot to mention that in the 8 hours I was there I wasn't even offered a lunch because I was a "consult", not a full physical.

If this is how they recruit me, I can't imagine how I will be treated once I actually work for them. i'd rather take my chances with the $250k in loans. i was looking forward to serving, but if it comes with that much unprofessionalism, forget about it. i'd rather keep my sanity.

I don't know what the policy is on LASIK, but there was never any mention of this being a deal breaker. I was told that as long as I was 'ok' and had all my paperwork things would go smoothly. Why put me through the hell of that whole day if they were just going to dq me anyways? It doesn't make sense. I've been recommended for a waiver, but seriously they can take the HPSP and shove it.

I can put up with a lot of BS. I did peace corps and dealt with gross incompetence, corruption, and a number of equally maddening things, but i find that the average illiterate backwoods village woman was more professional than the members of our country's "finest" that I met at MEPS.

EDIT: I don't want to generalize and imply that all members of the armed forces are as described above. I'm sure there are some excellent, professional people out there. I've met a few of these so I know. I just thought it was a poor showing for an entity that's trying to attract me for a job.

 

[Re3iRtH]

I have read many posts on SDN and talked to students who have thoroughly investigated the HPSP program (Navy) and I find it rather confusing.
Most people agree that unless you have a strong affinity for the military you should not enter HPSP. However, when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.
It makes me wonder if most of the complaining on SDN comes from either people who do not have any real experience in the HPSP or are part of the 15% of individuals you may term as complainers. On the other hand if someone goes through HPSP and has a good experience and his loans are paid off will he then return to SDN and talk about his experience? Or will he move on to bigger and better things?
I have been toying with the idea of entering HPSP because I will have 250-300k is debt by the time medical school is over and I am almost certainly going into Family Medicine. In addition, the military does a great service for our country and I would not mind being a part of it. It seems like HPSP can be a good program to enter if your self-motivated and are going to make the most out of every opportunity they give you.
I know there are some problems with bureaucracy and some people have issues with the lifestyle of living in the military. But, isn't it worth it? Don't they provide you with great training and incentives and you end up debt free?

I almost want to believe...

I just joined the Army this past summer. I'm an MS-1 now.
I'm only 22 but, best decision I ever made

 

[a1qwerty55]

I don't have many regrets, but am not staying one day past 20.

I have worked with excellent people, have had access to superlative training, have a million job offers, and job satisfaction plus a sense of accomplishement/service to soldier and Country.

That being said:

I would like better ancillary support and to be paid commensurate with my civilian peers and work their hours which are far fewer than mine.

 

[BomberDoc]

Old cranky guy checking in. To answer your question, yes, it is bad. I'll opt not to climb on the soapbox. Too tired and bitter tonight.

I also had the distinct pleasure of going through MEPS with a few hundred 18 year olds. I was a few years out of college as medicine is a second or third career for me. That experience isn't really representative of military medicine, however incompetent. Funny, though.

 

[Galo]

I have read many posts on SDN and talked to students who have thoroughly investigated the HPSP program (Navy) and I find it rather confusing.
Most people agree that unless you have a strong affinity for the military you should not enter HPSP. However, when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.
It makes me wonder if most of the complaining on SDN comes from either people who do not have any real experience in the HPSP or are part of the 15% of individuals you may term as complainers. On the other hand if someone goes through HPSP and has a good experience and his loans are paid off will he then return to SDN and talk about his experience? Or will he move on to bigger and better things?
I have been toying with the idea of entering HPSP because I will have 250-300k is debt by the time medical school is over and I am almost certainly going into Family Medicine. In addition, the military does a great service for our country and I would not mind being a part of it. It seems like HPSP can be a good program to enter if your self-motivated and are going to make the most out of every opportunity they give you.
I know there are some problems with bureaucracy and some people have issues with the lifestyle of living in the military. But, isn't it worth it? Don't they provide you with great training and incentives and you end up debt free?

I almost want to believe...

Well, your in an internet forum, so you have to see where your information is coming from. Is it coming from prior service physicians, or med students who have not had even had operational experience? Also, whatever info you get here you should double check with current active duty docs of the branch you want to join, or better all branches. Thirdly, you really need to search this forum, as the question you ask comes up about every other week in one way or another.

One of the first fallacies you will fall in, is if you join for the money, it is almost universally agreed here, that you will be miserable. You also never know if you're going to change your mind and go into a specialty that would pay you 3-4 more times on the outside, or if your even allowed to go into that specialty.

There is no doubt that the military takes care of some of the most deserving patients in our country, and treating them is a privilege. Its also ultimately the most frustrating experience when you cannot treat them the way they deserve.

You will have to be self motivating to succeed at any medical school and beyond. The problem you will encounter in the military, and one that has been more palpable than ever with now two years in a row of GME selection posted on this forum, is the probability of having to be a GMO. Also the quality of GME has been debated here.

My experience of all this comes from 6 years of active duty as an AF surgeon.

So to answer your last question, is it worth it?? Money wise, I think its been said here over and over, NOT WORTH IT. "Great Training", not in certain fields, and not the same DoD wide. Is it worth it to potentially loose 2 years of training, and then add to your commitment?? My personal experience is NO WAY would I do it again. If you really want to serve, become a trained physician in whatever field you want, and then join. Good luck

 

[bricktamland]

My experience has been full of vicissitudes.

My Navy FP internship overall was good, but could have been more balanced. Too much emphasis on OB, Newborn, and women's health. Weak on Internal Medicine and Peds (except for newborn years), and not enough procedures (except for circs, I cringe at the thought of all the deformed wee-wees I may be responsible for). Excellent staff, nice camraderie at the hospital.

Next came GMO years with a Marine infantry battalion. Before I even started, I was already irritated because going "greenside" was my last choice. Despite being a very physically active guy (always first class PFT), I hate going to the field, can't stand humping (the backpack-wearing version), and I'm more into the Sierra Club than Guns and Ammo. Overall, its not my scene.

But it got worse. My first CO was a total a-hole, and my Chief was a worthless sack of crap. I had no idea what the hell my job was, and felt extremely undertrained for what 90% of a GMO's job is--admin. I thought, "why did I spend four years in medical school to do this crap?" That first year was HORRIBLE. A lot of the other Marine officers were jerks, and I always felt like an outsider. The Regimental Surgeon supervising me was a complete and utter *****--I mean literally the guy was a liability and put people's lives in danger--usually in a perverted quest to pad his fit rep. The only good thing that happened was I got married, but then two weeks after my wedding I was on my way to Iraq. . . .

I spent a lot of that time in Iraq being super pissed off and bitter. A fellow GMO got shot by a sniper. I wondered, "was this worth it?" When I got back I swore up and down I would serve my time out as GMO and finish residency as a civilian.

Then I transferred to a different Marine unit, and the atmosphere there was totally different. The CO was laid back and cool. My Chief was a rock star. I finally started to have a handle on my role and responsibilities (still remarkably unchallenging yet strangely a bit fullfilling). I've had a great group of Corpsmen, and the Marines with this other unit have been professional and supportive of the medical staff. I'm surprised to say it, but this last year has been great. Good hours (usually 8-4 with a nice 1-2 hour lunch/work-out in between). Plenty of government holidays. Nice gym with good pick-up basketball games during lunch. Other medical officers in the area are great guys and we've got a good camraderie going. Plenty of autonomy (I usually can take any afternoon off to go to the bank or whatever).

In my time as a GMO, my confidence as a physician has soared. I have also improved my leadership abilities and have become a more responsible adult in all facets of life. I am proud to say I served in Iraq (though my opinion on the War remains unchanged), and I enjoy the respect that people give me when they find out I was there.

Futhermore, one of the best parts was that my GMO period allowed me the time to find myself, and really figure out what I wanted to do in medicine. I discovered that I really like Radiology. Yet, I had less than mediocre board scores (pretty crappy, actually) dating from when I was a total med school slacker. Having genuinely grown and matured as a GMO though, I was able to get great letters of recommendation and my maturity and confidence really shined through during my interviews. I ended up getting my first choice in Radiology with the Navy.

Though I am definitely not the hard-core military type, overall, the Navy has been good to me. There are certainly a lot of negatives, most of which are well-detailed on this forum, and which I would not dispute. However, I agree that most people who have a more positive experience aren't the ones spending a lot of time writing about it on this forum (and believe me, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the gripes and complaints).

I wrote all this mainly to give some hope to the med students and interns who have already signed the bottom line and may be worried about what lies on the road ahead. You'll probably go through some painful times--especially if you go GMO, but try to keep a positive attitude and you might even have some fun. Personally, I'm grateful for my time as a GMO but also looking forward to my last hump with the grunts . . . .

Good luck to you all and feel free to PM me if you have any questions about GMO life with the Marines.

 

[Mirror Form]

If this is how they recruit me, I can't imagine how I will be treated once I actually work for them. i'd rather take my chances with the $250k in loans. i was looking forward to serving, but if it comes with that much unprofessionalism, forget about it. i'd rather keep my sanity.

Well, if the money was your major motivation for joining, then that LASIK disqualification might have been the best thing that ever happened to you.

 

[FutureNavyFP]

My experience has been full of vicissitudes.

Good luck to you all and feel free to PM me if you have any questions about GMO life with the Marines.

This is probably the best post on this forum. Thank you.

 

[RugbyJC]

This is probably the best post on this forum. Thank you.

agreed. Although I think I've heard your story before, bricktamland

 

[Jolie South]

Well, if the money was your major motivation for joining, then that LASIK disqualification might have been the best thing that ever happened to you.

i wanted to finish internship and go the flight surgeon route. i was looking forward to the experience and the service. relief of the debt burden was just an added benefit.

now, however, i'll gleefully take out the loans and work where i want. if i change my mind later on, there's always FAP.

 

[RugbyJC]

My MEPS experience is one I will never forget. The day after I contacted the Army I received a phone call at 0500 and by noon, there was a recruiter in my living room feeding me crap.

We went to MEPS THE NEXT DAY. I was the only person over twenty, and the only person not wearing jeans and sneakers...until we had to duckwalk in our underwear, that is. I was kinda wondering why the recruiter asked me if I was wearing underwear as we were driving over the bridge to Staten Island.

Anywho, when all was said and done it was decided that I was hard of hearing, obese, and had a heart murmur--three things I had not known about before. The heart murmur (which no else has ever heard but that doc) and hearing (which I agreed with) were waved right then and there. No Questions asked. The obesity failed me...and then failed me three more times...so I joined the Navy.

Note that by "obesity" I really mean that I was an athlete in college and had a body fat percentage of less than 15% at the time. I was pretty jacked and even with the taping I was diproportionate (no, I am not one of those fat people thinks she can wear skinny jeans...I really was in shape back then). This was degrading and made me feel incredably self-conscious. When I asked what I could do to get within standards, the doc said, "eat less...you're fat". The third time I asked if I looked fat to her, thinking I was disillusional (kinda like a reverse anorexia) and she made some comment about how girls weren't suppose to have muscle and it looked equally as bad as being fat. This was after she lecture 4 other girls about their hair being too short and that they looked like lesbians.

When I started typing this I had a moral to the story, but I seem to have forgotten it now. It might have had something to do with my goals being similar to that of Jolie South four years ago, like a lot of people who sign up for this scholarship. Or maybe it had something to do with how MEPS was crap? Maybe ill edit if I remember....

 

[Jolie South]

When I started typing this I had a moral to the story, but I seem to have forgotten it now. It might have had something to do with my goals being similar to that of Jolie South four years ago, like a lot of people who sign up for this scholarship. Or maybe it had something to do with how MEPS was crap? Maybe ill edit if I remember....

I guess I'm not as willing as I thought I was to forego the liberties that civilians have in starting out their careers. Better that I figured that out now.

 

[RugbyJC]

I guess I'm not as willing as I thought I was to forego the liberties that civilians have in starting out their careers. Better that I figured that out now.

I guess this was sorta what I was getting at...in a convoluted way. When I was at MEPS I thought it was just an isolated experience. That this was not representative of what the military was really like. In some respects, this assumption was wrong. I see a lot of BS and there is a lot of paperwork and some things are just a pain in arse. However, when all is said and done the big picture is still the same...and the medical care is a lot better than that crazy Asian lady who told me I was fat...at least what I've seen, but im only an MSIV.

 

[bricktamland]

agreed. Although I think I've heard your story before, bricktamland

I believe I have left a few random rants before, but I think most them took place during the "dark years" when I needed to vent my bitterness. When I switched battalions, I was surprised as anyone to find out that it is actually possible to have a good working environment as a GMO. A lot depends on who you work with. The unfortunate thing about the military is that you can't fire the dirtbags, and the good people usually end up transfering.

 

[Jolie South]

I guess this was sorta what I was getting at...in a convoluted way. When I was at MEPS I thought it was just an isolated experience. That this was not representative of what the military was really like. In some respects, this assumption was wrong. I see a lot of BS and there is a lot of paperwork and some things are just a pain in arse. However, when all is said and done the big picture is still the same...and the medical care is a lot better than that crazy Asian lady who told me I was fat...at least what I've seen, but im only an MSIV.

i'm confused.

did you take the scholarship or not?

 

[RugbyJC]

i'm confused.

did you take the scholarship or not?

yes, I did accept.

sometimes i confuse myself as well.

I just meant that the hassels, disorganization, and BS that we both saw at MEPS is not completely representative of military medicine, but it does have some similarities to how things can be run.

Does that make more sense? or less?

 

[Jolie South]

yes, I did accept.

sometimes i confuse myself as well.

I just meant that the hassels, disorganization, and BS that we both saw at MEPS is not completely representative of military medicine, but it does have some similarities to how things can be run.

Does that make more sense? or less?

yes, i understand.

i'm still thinking things through. should i get the waiver, my husband and I still need to discuss all of our options and see if that's what we want.

thanks for your comments though.

 

[BomberDoc]

I believe I have left a few random rants before, but I think most them took place during the "dark years" when I needed to vent my bitterness. When I switched battalions, I was surprised as anyone to find out that it is actually possible to have a good working environment as a GMO. A lot depends on who you work with. The unfortunate thing about the military is that you can't fire the dirtbags, and the good people usually end up transfering.

I actually kinda liked the first 2 years of my GMO career. Things were new and interesting, being a line asset is the best situation possible, flying is great, deploying the first time was fun, etc. Strangely enough what made it fun was the fact that my first commander was a real prick. The entire squadron HATED this guy. It made the camaraderie extremely high. The unit was super tight because fun was not allowed under this guy, so we went out of our way to have fun and excel because he couldn't touch us if we were the best goddamn bomb dropping, beer drinking squadron in the AF. Work hard, play harder. We should all have multiple ADAPT referrals. Of course, we celebrated like mad when the a-hole left. That was a great "wheels up" party. Somebody even made a friday patch for it. The next two years, however, were the "dark years." Now I was a senior guy (purely relative--I wasn't the newest anymore) and got relegated back to the medgroup. I barely had time to fly anymore. The newbies sucked and couldn't do the job very well. I had to pick up the slack. I ended up being in charge of everything as a 2 year captain. The billet is for a LtCol. I'm totally rank impaired and have zero voice in the MDG. I've been counting down since around 700 days. I used to actually enjoy my job. Now, I hate it more than I can adequately express using words. I have totally lost faith in military medicine, the Air Force, and the military in general. We are broken and we have lost what used to be a heritage of greatness.

Yeah, this started out positive, but I don't have any of that left. They started beating all the positive out of me about 600 days ago. Mission accomplished. The last drop just bled out.

 

[sethco]

So I have a couple of questions...

1) Why do post like these seem to arise on a weekly basis?

2) Does the search function not work properly? How about the scroll butoon or page down key on the computer?

3) Why do the majority of the answers for post like these come from pre-meds or med students? Is this like the Blind leading the blind?

 

[BomberDoc]

#1 and #2, people are lazy.

#3 is that they already signed or have decided to do so and want someone to convince them that it is a good decision, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Look-

Everyone on this site is either a scientist or training to be one.

There is no way a person can REALLY know if military medicine is for them by listening to the same 15 people making the same arguments, for or against. In research methods, those are called case studies.

All of you guys that are currently serving and come on here to complain, in my opinion have earned that right, even though I don't like hearing it. Yet, I still consider you my "comrades in arms" and fellow military officers. My wife and I pray for you everyday, regardless of how you feel about the military.

Every time I drive through the gate and I am on post having just been saluted by the guy who looked at my ID, I feel like I am home.

The factors that created that in me are so vast, they cannot all be accounted for--personality, tolerance for stress, upbringing, need for regimentation, personal experience with command, which service I joined and when, etc. If one could design a study controlling for all the variables that came together to create "me" and "my experience" as first an enlisted man and now an officer who loves every minute of it, then maybe a person could read that study and make an informed decision.

Until then, keep telling your stories good or bad. In the end, people do what they want to to do.

 

[navdoc47]

My advice is this:

1) If you join the military, you might like it. Then again, you might hate it.

2) If you go civilian, you'll like it. I don't know of any civilians who hated being civilian, then joined the military to escape being a civilian - lol.

If you like OB call, then military family medicine will be fine for you. If you're like most family med docs who simply endure OB during residency and wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole outside of residency, then you won't appreciate the OB care you'll be forced to contend with as a military family med doc.

In my opinion, the loans are comparatively cheaper than the decreased quality of life that military service often brings. Once you're a board certified civilian, you'll be able to handle your loans - thousands are able to do so every year.

 

[RugbyJC]

3) Why do the majority of the answers for post like these come from pre-meds or med students? Is this like the Blind leading the blind?

yes, i know i am a medical student and i have posted a response to this, so that makes me a hypocrite, but im bored and have a block off.

i think its fine for med students and perhaps premeds who are prior to post about personal experiences only. However, I really like the use of the term "blind leading the blind". It pisses me off when I ask a question and a pre-med or med student with NO EXPERIENCE on the issue tries to answer based on what a recruiter has said...or based on other opinionated posts in this forum...or based on what ever happens to pop out of their a** and land on the keyboard at the present.

I don't know if its any less enlightening than the venting that goes on here, but it would be nice if only first hand information was spread.

 

[midn]

I think the reason you hear such a variety of experiences (good and bad; mostly bad) is because a lot of your enjoyment of your experience will be incredibly dependent on what kind of chain of command you have. Of course, some frustrations will come from inherent flaws in the system, but they're more tolerable with a good chain of command that works with you rather than against you.

I had excellent officers in ROTC (actual officers, not student officers). Unfortunately, student officers were left to command us which led to fun semesters and really, really crappy semesters. If your chain of command makes a mistake, you may not be directly reprimanded, but you sure as hell will have to pick up the slack for the CoC. For example, things would be planned at the last minute and things were generally chaotic. When things got chaotic, people got stressed out and pissy making the entire environment incredibly unfriendly. Student officers would dump work on their subordinates unmercifully and then stress out about you finishing it causing them to ask you about it at every instance forgetting that you're in college and that you have other academic responsibilities. It got pretty awful.

The semesters that were good, things ran smoothly. We'd finish things early and be reprimanded less making everyone a bit happier. Despite doing the same work, things just seemed better.

I luckily didn't have a MEPS experience. Instead, the military paid for me to go see a physician. The doctor they gave me was awful. The nurse that was doing my tests was incredibly racist asking if my mother wore a red dot on her head (I'm Indian), and then deridingly asked why Indian American women wore any traditional clothing at any time. God damnit, they're in America now and should assimilate to the culture immediately. She seemed pretty angry about it too. The doctor was really short with me and his examination took maybe 30 seconds total (this was a private clinic and nobody else was there). He passed me and I went away from the clinic vowing never to return.

My friend, who was incredibly athletic, was disqualified for potentially having bunions. This girl probably ran faster than I did and was many classes of physical fitness above me. Her family physician did a follow up examination and found nothing wrong. She had to go through a very long waiver process and was pretty upset that her dreams had been so quickly crushed. She ended up getting the waiver (big surprise), but it really showed me how stupid some military doctors were.

It's not just the doctors either, but now I'm straying way off topic.

 

[Perrotfish]

i think its fine for med students and perhaps premeds who are prior to post about personal experiences only. However, I really like the use of the term "blind leading the blind". It pisses me off when I ask a question and a pre-med or med student with NO EXPERIENCE on the issue tries to answer based on what a recruiter has said...or based on other opinionated posts in this forum...or based on what ever happens to pop out of their a** and land on the keyboard at the present.

Sooo, people like you really annoy you?

 

[DiveMD]

The military is like Gin; you either love it or hate it…

 

[Re3iRtH]

My advice is this:

1) If you join the military, you might like it. Then again, you might hate it.

2) If you go civilian, you'll like it. I don't know of any civilians who hated being civilian, then joined the military to escape being a civilian - lol.

If you like OB call, then military family medicine will be fine for you. If you're like most family med docs who simply endure OB during residency and wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole outside of residency, then you won't appreciate the OB care you'll be forced to contend with as a military family med doc.

In my opinion, the loans are comparatively cheaper than the decreased quality of life that military service often brings. Once you're a board certified civilian, you'll be able to handle your loans - thousands are able to do so every year.

Be careful with your choice of words. I know plenty of civilian docs
that are miserable with and about the profession in general. If what
you said was true, I think everyone would love thier job; we know
that this isnt the case. And if everyone loved being civilian, everyone would
be a happy person, this isnt the case either
But yea, joining the military for its quality of life
(ie. deployments) you are just kidding yourself

 

[DiveMD]

Be careful with your choice of words. I know plenty of civilian docs
that are miserable with and about the profession in general. If what
you said was true, I think everyone would love thier job; we know
that this isnt the case. And if everyone loved being civilian, everyone would
be a happy person, this isnt the case either
But yea, joining the military for its quality of life
(ie. deployments) you are just kidding yourself

You might be right, but a civilian doc (or any civilian in general) can always quit his/her job whenever he/she wants. This is not possible in the military.

 

[RugbyJC]

Sooo, people like you really annoy you?

"Sooo, people like you really annoy you?"

no. people like you who are NOT even in HPSP...or accepted into medical school...and have no prior service. Yet, you pretend to be an expert in the field by posting made up statistics.

My favorite one was where you told an MSIV how to handle a change in her medical status. Your suggestions included not seeking treatment and hiding her condition from the higher ups. Or maybe it was the one where you came up with statistics about the military match that were far from correct and not even consistant with the process. You have even tried to answer questions that residents have posted and appear to be an expert on GMO tours.

My qualm is that this is how rumors get spread. When you post something assertively and it is incorrect, how is the casual reader to know this not good information? Yes, this is an annonymous forum, and you have a right to free speech, but where are the ethics behind this intentional misguidence? I use this forum because its a great place to have serious questions answered, and in some instances the only place where you can get a straight answer.

I am not one for online flaming, but you can't say you did not start this, Perrot.

 

[MaximusD]

Be careful with your choice of words. I know plenty of civilian docs
that are miserable with and about the profession in general. If what
you said was true, I think everyone would love thier job; we know
that this isnt the case. And if everyone loved being civilian, everyone would
be a happy person, this isnt the case either
But yea, joining the military for its quality of life
(ie. deployments) you are just kidding yourself

Ugh, I'm gonna throw my hat into this ring and prob get burnt.

I agree... many many physicians don't like their work in the civilian world, particularly during residency and their first few years in practice. I have a hard time believing that military medicine is several degrees of magnitude worse as some on here would purport. But in a few years, I may be proven wrong --

 

[BomberDoc]

The military is like Gin; you either love it or hate it…

Love Gin. Hate military medicine.

When I did SV-80 (survival school to the uninitiated) we cut down juniper trees/bushes to build shelters. All I could think of was how much I could use a Bombay Sapphire martini.

 

[RugbyJC]

Why was this bad advice? I did it my MSIV year.



Yeah, as opposed to the "96.2% of military physicians leave when their committment is up" and "The vast majority of milmed docs hate their job" that gets posted here every week. Or my favorite, when NavyFP posts stats and everyone goes, "No way!"

When I made that statement it was directed at all these comments--not just the ones I included. Most come from med students and *gasp* pre-meds. I guess Im the only one who finds it annoying to ask a procedural question and then get an answer from someone who isn't even in the program and who clearly made up said response.

Yes, the "all milmed docs hate their jobs" gets a little redundant, and since im in a venting mood, maybe ill include that here too. I guess I just find the former more annoying. I posted a question about reimbursements when I first joined this list and a pre-med (who I did not realize was a pre-med) gave me "advice" that was completely out of left field and extended the time to receive my claim. I guess im stupid for not noticing the "pre-med" logo. I admit it is amusing to see some of their answers, but I guess I just never understand why people try to post things that are made up. Maybe the desire to help someone seems to take presidence over the desire to provide accurate info? Or maybe its an attention issue. I don't know. I don't understand it.

I see it in other med student communities on other websites. I wonder if its just a pre-med/med student thing?

 

[USAFdoc]

I almost want to believe...

[/QUOTE]

this statement is a "red flag" that you are at risk for a frustrating milmed career. I say that because you sound like someone who might be idealistic and have high standards for yourself and the care of your patients.

In the military you run a high risk of being disillusioned because what comes out of the lips of senior admin (integrity, excellence, service etc..) are just lip service 90% of the time. What matters are metrics, promotions, and money. Milmed (I speak mostly from a USAF Primary Care vantage point here) is stressed to the max and patients and staff are paying that price.

Your best bet if you enter the "primary care pit" is low expectations and a willingness to do whatever, whenever, no matter what and be able to to accept daily forced change on you, and have little to no power to change anything yourself.

After being back in civ med now for 3 years, there are issues here too, but I can effect change many times, and I can move to a different job if things are too ridiculously bad (however unlike milmed, you will find that admin wants to keep you whereas milmed appeared to care less).

Lastly, many of the milmed cherrleaders on this site are medstudents or people that are in admin type jobs (although not all). The real tragedy of the milmed career does not begin in medschool or milmed residency but when you enter the practicing part of your career.


read the back issues of USAFP. It is a pro-milmed journal but you will repeatedly see the themes of do more with less, things will get better, no retention, undermanning etc.......that still remain the themes year after year.

what they will not mention is the adverse pt outcomes, missed dx, near misses, porr quality of care that I witnessed during my time, and was the main reason I left after 10 years military.

you cant run a milmed clinic with novice nurses, novice docs, 20% manning, no charts (although we have Ahlta) and non continuitty and think bad stuff wont happen regularly.........and it was.........and have retention suffer......and it has

 

[MaximusD]

When I made that statement it was directed at all these comments--not just the ones I included. Most come from med students and *gasp* pre-meds. I guess Im the only one who finds it annoying to ask a procedural question and then get an answer from someone who isn't even in the program and who clearly made up said response.

Yes, the "all milmed docs hate their jobs" gets a little redundant, and since im in a venting mood, maybe ill include that here too. I guess I just find the former more annoying. I posted a question about reimbursements when I first joined this list and a pre-med (who I did not realize was a pre-med) gave me "advice" that was completely out of left field and extended the time to receive my claim. I guess im stupid for not noticing the "pre-med" logo. I admit it is amusing to see some of their answers, but I guess I just never understand why people try to post things that are made up. Maybe the desire to help someone seems to take presidence over the desire to provide accurate info? Or maybe its an attention issue. I don't know. I don't understand it.

I see it in other med student communities on other websites. I wonder if its just a pre-med/med student thing?

Probably bc we haven't gotten the snot beaten out of us yet for providing bull**** answers. That will subside in residency

 

[midn]

Love Gin. Hate military medicine.

When I did SV-80 (survival school to the uninitiated) we cut down juniper trees/bushes to build shelters. All I could think of was how much I could use a Bombay Sapphire martini.

You have to do survival school? That's rough. What kind of unit were you attached to that required you to do survival school?

Is this the same survival school where they have a POW phase?

 

[Perrotfish]

My favorite one was where you told an MSIV how to handle a change in her medical status. Your suggestions included not seeking treatment and hiding her condition from the higher ups. Or maybe it was the one where you came up with statistics about the military match that were far from correct and not even consistant with the process. You have even tried to answer questions that residents have posted and appear to be an expert on GMO tours.

My qualm is that this is how rumors get spread. When you post something assertively and it is incorrect, how is the casual reader to know this not good information? Yes, this is an annonymous forum, and you have a right to free speech, but where are the ethics behind this intentional misguidence? I use this forum because its a great place to have serious questions answered, and in some instances the only place where you can get a straight answer.

I am not one for online flaming, but you can't say you did not start this, Perrot.

I´ve always gone out of my way to make my status as a premed clear. I generally try to head my posts with ´from an HPSP hopeful´or something similar. When I´ve said anything incorrect I´ve generally tried to appologize.

The MSIV thing is a good example. She asked, I had the service contract in front of me, and I said the current Navy contract appeared to say that before you completed medical school that caused you to became medically inelligilble would cause you to owe Uncle Sam the complete cost of your education. I´m still not sure I was reading that correctly (the thing definitely reads like stereo instructions) but you shouldn´t need to be an Attending to be able to read your financial obligations in the service contract. The same goes for more or less any advice concerning the finances of military medicine, the percentage who match into GMO tours, reletive financial benefits of HPSP compared to FAP, how civilian deferments work, or anything else that can look up. You not only can be qualified to give advice on this without being an attending, you should be able to give competent answers about all of it or you shouldn´t be signing the contract.

I´m not sure what you´re talking about concerning military match statistics (once again, I still can´t find them anywhere, so I still have no idea how Military USMLEs and class rank for residency match compare to the civilian world). I think I underestimed some recruitment statistics for the Navy once. I was corrected, I appologized. Same goes for the GMO tour thing. I don´t recall ever claiming to be an expert on anything in particular. I´ve occasionally said I´ve gotten a very different set of opinions from other ex-military docs I´ve met personally compared to the opinions on this board... well I have. I don´t think that qualifies as spreading rumors or misinformation.

 

[RugbyJC]

I´ve always gone out of my way to make my status as a premed clear. I generally try to head my posts with ´from an HPSP hopeful´or something similar. When I´ve said anything incorrect I´ve generally tried to appologize.

The MSIV thing is a good example. She asked, I had the service contract in front of me, and I said the current Navy contract appeared to say that before you completed medical school that caused you to became medically inelligilble would cause you to owe Uncle Sam the complete cost of your education. I´m still not sure I was reading that correctly (the thing definitely reads like stereo instructions) but you shouldn´t need to be an Attending to be able to read your financial obligations in the service contract. The same goes for more or less any advice concerning the finances of military medicine, the percentage who match into GMO tours, reletive financial benefits of HPSP compared to FAP, how civilian deferments work, or anything else that can look up. You not only can be qualified to give advice on this without being an attending, you should be able to give competent answers about all of it or you shouldn´t be signing the contract.

I´m not sure what you´re talking about concerning military match statistics (once again, I still can´t find them anywhere, so I still have no idea how Military USMLEs and class rank for residency match compare to the civilian world). I think I underestimed some recruitment statistics for the Navy once. I was corrected, I appologized. Same goes for the GMO tour thing. I don´t recall ever claiming to be an expert on anything in particular. I´ve occasionally said I´ve gotten a very different set of opinions from other ex-military docs I´ve met personally compared to the opinions on this board... well I have. I don´t think that qualifies as spreading rumors or misinformation.

My origional post was not directed at you. It was directed at the misinformation, in general, that appears in pre-med, med student, etc. discussions in this forum, elsewhere on this site, and in other online communities (yes, i do have a life that's not online--its just a great way to handle bordum when you are off and your friends are not...but i digress...) and even things that residents and attendings pull out of their a**es. It was when you posted your comment to that response that I took offense and attacked you personally. Perhaps you were being sarcastic and I misinterpreted the connotation, but considering that a lot of your posts have fit that discription it set me off a bit.

Your help, and anyone's help, is greatly appreciated when you know what you are talking about, and in a lot of posts, you are right on. But quoting information elsewhere on this site or something a recruiter has said or even something that you heard from ex-military docs is just not a good way to spread information--unless the source is cited. Especially considering even the program directors and HPSP admins don't know the answers to our questions half the time (no offense to anyone who falls into that category).


I just feel that "the blind leading the blind" is a very appropriate term for how a lot of things are done through HPSP and it pisses me off that this is how we get through a lot of the prcoess. They have gotten better since I signed the contract (which I agree, is not the most clear) on how to use NROWS or schedule ATs, but the first two years of medical school were a pain in the neck figuring these things out--before I discovered SDN. I guess that's something you will have to see for yourself in the future.

You are going to make a very good advisor for med students, HPSP, etc., when the time is right. Its just difficult to assess things that you are not a part of it.

No hard feelings?

PS I neglected a fractured fibula first year, partially because I did not know the repercussions on the change in medical status...and I did not know it was broken, but that's a whole other story. I made this decision for myself and it was the wrong one. I just don't think a pre-med should be advising someone to do that. Just my opinion.

 

[deuist]

While were on the subject of MEPS stories, I would like my own. I got there at 5 a.m., and was told to stand at the front of the line because I was an officer candidate, then got yelled at by someone else for skipping line. I went through my physical exam and was immediately disqualified because I had a heart murmur as a child and because I'd had an upper G.I. series to rule out an ulcer when I was in high school. Never mind that no physician has heard a heart murmur since I was a wee lad, and the upper G.I. series showed that I did not have an ulcer.

I had to go through several consults. I had to get an echocardiogram to rule out valvular heart disease. I had to get an endoscopy to rule out GERD. I even had to get a psychiatric evaluation to make sure that I could handle the stresses of military life. I'm sure that all of these consults ended up costing the government well over $1000--- unnecessarily so, given that my heart nor my stomach give me any problems. Similar to the other posters' experiences, I was one of the oldest people at MEPS, I also did not receive a lunch.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

While were on the subject of MEPS stories, I would like my own. I got there at 5 a.m., and was told to stand at the front of the line because I was an officer candidate, then got yelled at by someone else for skipping line. I went through my physical exam and was immediately disqualified because I had a heart murmur as a child and because I'd had an upper G.I. series to rule out an ulcer when I was in high school. Never mind that no physician has heard a heart murmur since I was a wee lad, and the upper G.I. series showed that I did not have an ulcer.

I had to go through several consults. I had to get an echocardiogram to rule out valvular heart disease. I had to get an endoscopy to rule out GERD. I even had to get a psychiatric evaluation to make sure that I could handle the stresses of military life. I'm sure that all of these consults ended up costing the government well over $1000--- unnecessarily so, given that my heart nor my stomach give me any problems. Similar to the other posters' experiences, I was one of the oldest people at MEPS, I also did not receive a lunch.

I won't tell it, but my story is similar. It's great when you are CURRENTLY an NCO going for a commissioning physical and a SPC yells at you to get up against the wall like everybody else.

 

[Jolie South]

Just thought I'd say that while I still think MEPS is completely full of incompetence, I'm not pissed at the military anymore.

I visited a base today and hung out with a HPSP flight surgeon. I think it's a cool opportunity and am over my qualms after talking with this guy. He got screwed on the match, but was still positive about the work that he's doing so I found that pretty hopeful.

I am definitely still considering the HPSP and will wait and see what aid my husband and I get before I sign anything.

 

[BomberDoc]

Come hang out with this HPSP flight surgeon and you will get your qualms back. One day with one person does not a data set worthy of such a huge decision make.