Is the military really so bad?

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Jolie South

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Come hang out with this HPSP flight surgeon and you will get your qualms back. One day with one person does not a data set worthy of such a huge decision make.

I realize that and have been talking with another guy via e-mail. I guess I was just trying to say that I had a very negative outlook after MEPS, but obviously MEPS isn't what happens day to day for you guys. It's not 100% negative was my point. At the same time, I wasn't trying to imply that it was all sunshine and rainbows either.

Could I pm you for more info?

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apoptosisisfun

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I visited Great Lakes today and got the same vibe as the OP; from both older and young perspectives I didn't see any of the hostility I read about in this forum.
 

USAFdoc

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I visited Great Lakes today and got the same vibe as the OP; from both older and young perspectives I didn't see any of the hostility I read about in this forum.

I hope none of the docs on this site are out to tell you lies, and I dont believe they are when they describe to you the "broken" milmed system we experienced.

You also have to realize that what you see in one day at GREAT LAKES doesnt mean that represents milmed in general. That would be like you visiting Detroit and thinking crime is crazy in the USA or SanFrancisco and thinking that is the typical USA culture.

In my experience AND with numerous other docs I know in milmed PRIMARY CARE, the system is broken. I feel strongly that prospective FPs should really be cautious about a milmed Primary care career.

That does not mean USUHS or milmed residencies are consistently bad. In fact, USUHS has been described as quite good from some docs I worked with.
 
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apoptosisisfun

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You also have to realize that what you see in one day at GREAT LAKES doesnt mean that represents milmed in general. That would be like you visiting Detroit and thinking crime is crazy in the USA or SanFrancisco and thinking that is the typical USA culture.

Ah, I should have mentioned that wasn't the only encounter I've had; I was just mentioning (as the op said):

...when I talk to people who have toured the military hospitals and talked to HPSPers who are currently in the hospitals they seem to be upbeat and positive about the program, even for those few unlucky souls who have had to do a GMO tour.


So I'd say... erm, the weather's nice in Detroit? (Which goes against all logic, as all us midwesterners know the weather is god-awful in Detroit)
 

RunwayModel

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I just joined the Army this past summer. I'm an MS-1 now.
I'm only 22 but, best decision I ever made :thumbup:

Tell me if you feel the same way in December of your MS-4 year.
 

MaximusD

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I think you'll find uncategorically that students who don't have luck with their residency of choice are the ones who come in here and complain. There are attendings in here near the end of their obligation, but I think with most jobs if you become stuck in one place and have no freedom, you will become sick of it. I do not mean to discredit your experience, but I only intend to contrast it a little. The lack of freedom is a major downfall of accepting the HPSP, there is no argument against that fact.

The inherent risk of milmed is that you may get screwed by the system and get stuck with a GMO/FS tour (if, of course, you dont actually want one). I accept that risk, and hopefully the odds don't screw me, but it's not fair to say that all of milmed is broken when others clearly have better luck with residency and subsequent medical careers within the military and subsequently in the civvy world. People who I've met in person.

The fact is that it has to be improved and someone needs to (and will eventually) do it. Or do you somehow think that they will just toss out the medical program for active servicemen and vets altogether? -- unlikely. So while it is valuable for you to talk about the negative aspects of milmed, I sincerely hope that you do not actually think that you are going to make any significant impact on recruitment. The military will need doctors and med students will fill those positions.

Something else to consider is that with socialized medicine on the horizon, will the civilian system really be that much different from military medicine in the long term?? It's going to happen, despite the huge insurance lobbies... There is a strong movement for socialized medicine on the wake of Moore's movie. To deny it is naive

Again, just offering a conflicting viewpoint. I hope that I didn't insult anyone as that was not my intention.
 

notdeadyet

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Something else to consider is that with socialized medicine on the horizon, will the civilian system really be that much different from military medicine in the long term?? It's going to happen, despite the huge insurance lobbies... There is a strong movement for socialized medicine on the wake of Moore's movie. To deny it is naive.
You give Moore's movie way too much credit. It's going to happen because folks are disgusted with the state of healthcare, their inability to get it and how much they have to pay. It's been decades in the making.

Moore's movie was just fluff.
 

kingcer0x

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Tell me if you feel the same way in December of your MS-4 year.


yeah... when your academically inferior classmates are really happy about matching and having their lives planned out and couldn't give two craps about you and your GMO/FS tour or Army/AF/Navy business. You might be excited about serving your country, but you will be a little bitter, trust me.

-MS4
 

Ziehl-Neelsen

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yeah... when your academically inferior classmates are really happy about matching and having their lives planned out and couldn't give two craps about you and your GMO/FS tour or Army/AF/Navy business. You might be excited about serving your country, but you will be a little bitter, trust me.

-MS4

Or as your classmates take out yet another loan to move themselves and their families across the country and your paid for movers load up your stuff, take it to your destination, and set up your new home, you can sigh with relief and spend the 3 weeks before residency vacationing with your wife.

One can even feel a twinge of sorrow for the 27 year old classmates who will spend yet another segment of their young lives locked in the ivory tower, plodding toward the big reward while you have the opportunity to go to jump school, deploy with a parachute infantry regiment, embark on a humanitarian mission, or live and practice in a foreign country.

When my classmates are at their 20th high school reunion telling their friends how its been one non-stop grind from medical school, to residency, to fellowship, and then paying off loans, I'll be telling my friends about living in Korea or Germany and how cool jump school was. I may be thousands of dollars poorer, but my family will still be comfortable. And I'll be able to say with great pride that I serve as doctor in the Army of the United States.

The military route is a fantastic one for many people, and the constant assurances that the med corps will screw you and leave you bitter does a tremendous disservice to those who have just embarked on their journey. You could end up like me... I excelled in medical school, received my first choice of residency in a great training program, and am super excited at the prospect of going to Korea for my first assignment out of residency. I also have no debt and enjoy a much higher standard of living than my civillian counterparts.

Conversely, you could end up like one of the neurosurgeons at my medical school... Thrice divorced and with a penchant for the finer things in life; barely making enough each month to afford his lifestyle. He was not a pleasant man to work with and spent much of the day telling medical students how miserable the field of medicine was and how it would screw us like it had screwed him.

There are no guarantees in life, and I have found that it really is what you make of it. So do the research, see the medical corps for what it is, and decide if it is right for you. If the military is right for you, you can be extremely happy.
 

navdoc47

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But on the other hand, some of your civilian classmates may reflect how they spent those thousands of extra dollars getting their own jump qualifications or perhaps even purchasing their own aircraft. And don't forget they'll get to watch their kids grow with no interruption while comfortably watching the war on HD CNN, sipping their favorite drink, all the while you are stuck in some hot, sandy base. And speaking of cocktail parties, while their stories might not be as exciting as yours, at least they'll be at the cocktail party !!! No significant alcohol for you if you're deployed in CENTCOM (middle east).
 

Galo

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Or as your classmates take out yet another loan to move themselves and their families across the country and your paid for movers load up your stuff, take it to your destination, and set up your new home, you can sigh with relief and spend the 3 weeks before residency vacationing with your wife.

One can even feel a twinge of sorrow for the 27 year old classmates who will spend yet another segment of their young lives locked in the ivory tower, plodding toward the big reward while you have the opportunity to go to jump school, deploy with a parachute infantry regiment, embark on a humanitarian mission, or live and practice in a foreign country.

When my classmates are at their 20th high school reunion telling their friends how its been one non-stop grind from medical school, to residency, to fellowship, and then paying off loans, I'll be telling my friends about living in Korea or Germany and how cool jump school was. I may be thousands of dollars poorer, but my family will still be comfortable. And I'll be able to say with great pride that I serve as doctor in the Army of the United States.

The military route is a fantastic one for many people, and the constant assurances that the med corps will screw you and leave you bitter does a tremendous disservice to those who have just embarked on their journey. You could end up like me... I excelled in medical school, received my first choice of residency in a great training program, and am super excited at the prospect of going to Korea for my first assignment out of residency. I also have no debt and enjoy a much higher standard of living than my civillian counterparts.

Conversely, you could end up like one of the neurosurgeons at my medical school... Thrice divorced and with a penchant for the finer things in life; barely making enough each month to afford his lifestyle. He was not a pleasant man to work with and spent much of the day telling medical students how miserable the field of medicine was and how it would screw us like it had screwed him.

There are no guarantees in life, and I have found that it really is what you make of it. So do the research, see the medical corps for what it is, and decide if it is right for you. If the military is right for you, you can be extremely happy.


I don't want you to take this personally, but you have a number of inconsistensies in your post. Its probably because you have had good experiences so far, including your GME since you are at a large center, and your move into your new home. Clearly those experiences are not the same that everyone has, and to say they are the norm, or better than civilian, is just plain wrong. Moves are hit and miss. On my first one, the guy (a civilian contractor) put our stuff into storage instead of meeting me at the house where we had agreed, so no furniture for 3 days while they found somebody else to deliver it. My second, and third were OK.

Most specialties, (other than fam practice and peds) will loose money if they go into the military compared to civilian. There should be no argument there. Conservatively, I lost close to 2 million dollars if I had not served for 6 years. Also, building a practice takes time, so when you get out, it may still take 3-5 yrs to get busy. As a pathologist, you will be hundreds of thousands of dollars poorer than you civilian counterpart who has been working for minimum 4 yrs after training. Also you posted that its getting difficult for pathologists to get jobs because of the diversity of pathology, the decreased compensation, and influx of large corporations using you as employees (actually this is not restricted to pathology). Yet you are looking at a possible Korea deployment where your likely to see skin lessions and appy's. Then where will you go if you are not at a major med center. Do you think you will have it easier in securing a job with a minimal pathologic experience due to lack of volume and diversity????

Going to jump school. BIG WHOOP. I am a 5 jump chery, and I did it while I was an ROTC cadet. Tell me how many docs you know do operational jumps?? Also, doing humanitarians, (I did 2), and one of them was a complete hassle in paperwork, and coordination. As a civilian, you can do as many as you want. Although I have not done any yet, I plan to.

You take the example of ONE neurosurgeon who is not a well adjusted person. Ask one neurosurgeon in the military what he would give to get out and be collecting a salary 4-5 times what he/she is making. The fact is that the vast majority of physicians (90% quoted somewhere here, and I agree with it based on my 6 yr experience), get out as soon as their commitment is up.

I do agree with your statement that alot of how you feel is what you make of it. I also vehemently agree that people need to do their research into military medicine. However, my experience, and that of many other physicians is that military medicine has undergone an extreme decline in nearly every aspect of it. It continues to worsen, and it seems there is not end to how screwed up it's going to get, while our soldiers get less than optimal care.

I hope you can use the training you get, and have a good career. I also hope you continue to post and let people know what your experience is good or bad.
 

Sartorius24

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Doesn't this all just go back to the "the experience is what you make of it" statement? I just signed on with the Army for the HPSP scholarship and commissioned in October. I want to be motivated and excited about it, but the majority of mil-med-docs have nothing good to say about it :scared:, needless to say I am stuck now, but I'll try and make the best of it.

I was hoping to go into emergency medicine. Is this also as bad as the primary care nightmares I have read about?
 
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kingcer0x

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sipping their favorite drink, all the while you are stuck in some hot, sandy base. And speaking of cocktail parties, while their stories might not be as exciting as yours, at least they'll be at the cocktail party !!! No significant alcohol for you if you're deployed in CENTCOM (middle east).

LOL

i wouldnt have been invited to the cocktail parties anyway, i happen to like sand, and television can raise my kids. god bless america.
 

Mirror Form

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I think you'll find uncategorically that students who don't have luck with their residency of choice are the ones who come in here and complain.

I can tell you uncategorically that you're wrong b/c I got my first choice for residency. And overall my residency program is a good one (internship was quite a different story though).

The inherent risk of milmed is that you may get screwed by the system and get stuck with a GMO/FS tour (if, of course, you dont actually want one).

That's just one risk, there are definitley others. Although that should be the biggest concern for medical students.

Something else to consider is that with socialized medicine on the horizon, will the civilian system really be that much different from military medicine in the long term?? It's going to happen, despite the huge insurance lobbies... There is a strong movement for socialized medicine on the wake of Moore's movie. To deny it is naive

Dem's get way too much lobby money from ATLA, and repubs get way too much lobby money from big pharm. Neither political party wants to push for socialized healthcare. It makes for a great talking point, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary tried it if she gets elected. But it will not be happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
 

mar8d

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call me an optomist...but things are going ok for me in good ol' HPSP semi-limbo and hopefully things will continue this way. But I guess the caveat is that things have worked out just the way I wanted them to so far - I got my 1st choice in the military match (and hopefully I'll get my #1 in the civilian match) And I've been treated with a good deal of respect. (MEPS only amounted to personal humiliation because I had to pee in front of some random lady with my best friend in the adjacent stall, and I stood around in my underwear for half the day in addition to squatting and doing a duck walk in them as well in front of 13 other chicks in their underwear (no dirty minds please:p:p). No one yelled at me, and for some reason we didn't have to show up at 5am, but came in at around 7 i think.)

Was the entire process leading up to my current state of trancendental zen scary? :eek: Yes. Did it work out ok.:luck: Yes. Have I wished I didn't have to worry about matching in a moderately competetive specialty. Absolutely. Is it hard to wonder if I'll like the location of the few military programs? Yes. Would I do it again...actually I don't know for sure...we'll have to see how the rest of it goes to be sure.

I guess my point is...is everyone on this forum disgruntled? I would say, for me...no...not yet anyway.:p
 

Ziehl-Neelsen

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I am not a blindly optimstic cheerleader for military medicine. I, also, know too many fellow docs who have gotten the shaft. One of my fellow classmates received his last choice in FP even though there were open spots at his first three choices because the Army has to fill a certain number of spots with residents to minimally cover call. I talked to him a week ago and he is having a great time. He never interviewd at the program cause it was not in his top 3, but he now likes it tons better than the others.

There was also the AF classmate who kicked butt all through medical school and planned on making a career in the AF. Of course he did not get his ER spot (and the complete deferrals all went to academy grads). Then, to add insult to injury he did not even get an AF internship. Which meant he had to spend thousands of dollars interviewing to find a categroical spot and will lose the 20,000 dollars extra he would have made as an AF intern. I spoke to him a few weeks ago also. He is justifiably pissed about how things went down and the AF will lose an outstanding doc in 4 years when he leaves.

To characterize the medical corps as categorically bad does a disservice to the medical students who frequent this board and do not have the experiences to judge for themselves yet. It's akin to telling one's young children that life is a miserable painful lot perpetrated by God as a joke and that all will end up bitter, despondent, and alone. No doubt that is the case for many people, but many people remain ebullient despite the vicissitudes life throws one's way. I advocate that we acknowledge all the aspects of the medical corps (good and bad) and let people decide for themselves. I would even grant the detractors on this board that the military route is not the best one for the majority of individuals that consider it. The uncertainties, curveballs, and injustices inherent to the system are legion. But the fact remains that many people enjoy their experiences in the medical corps.

The examples I gave previously contrasting myself with one of the neurosurgery attendings is not a characterization of military medicine vs. the civilian side. It merely underscores the fact that neither route is categorically better, one finds angry and happy individuals on both sides. It is an individual fit that, unfortunately, requires individuals to truly know themselves and their values at an exceedingly young age. The HPSP contract, like many other things in life, relies on a measure of ignorance on the part of medical students, so NOSCE IPSUM.

As I have said before and will continue to espouse, the military route is a great one for SOME PEOPLE. It all depends on the a priori values of the individual (money, stability, control, service, etc.). I want this site to be an (as much as humanly possible) unbiased account of the medical corps, and right now the scales are a bit tilted.
 

mitchconnie

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Something else to consider is that with socialized medicine on the horizon, will the civilian system really be that much different from military medicine in the long term?? It's going to happen, despite the huge insurance lobbies... There is a strong movement for socialized medicine on the wake of Moore's movie. To deny it is naive

I think you are making a big mistake if you are joining the USAF to avoid the bogeyman of "Socialized Medicine." What does that term even mean, other than being a scare tactic for far-right politicians? Are you referring to mandatory universal coverage (like Massachusetts), all-inclusive pre-paid HMO's (Kaiser), single-payer private system (Canada), or single government-run health system (UK)?

Perhaps you are correct in assuming that some change is coming to the civilian system. If one is afraid of change and competition, then I would agree that the military offers predictability. Some might say military healthcare is predicatably terrible, I would say it's predictably below average.
 

MaximusD

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I think you are making a big mistake if you are joining the USAF to avoid the bogeyman of "Socialized Medicine." What does that term even mean, other than being a scare tactic for far-right politicians? Are you referring to mandatory universal coverage (like Massachusetts), all-inclusive pre-paid HMO's (Kaiser), single-payer private system (Canada), or single government-run health system (UK)?

Perhaps you are correct in assuming that some change is coming to the civilian system. If one is afraid of change and competition, then I would agree that the military offers predictability. Some might say military healthcare is predicatably terrible, I would say it's predictably below average.

No where did I say this, and I do resent that you overgeneralized what I was trying to say, but I'll overlook it (pheww, i'm sure u were scared).

I was using it as a point as to why one entering a "broken system" is not necessarily giving up working in a non-dysfunctional one. Socialized or not, our civilian medical "system" is f*cked up. Doctors are undercompensated by medicare and paid only based on the amt of procedures they do -- it does not pay to actually CARE about how your patient is doing as a primary care physician. If you spend all night with a dying patient at their bedside as an internist you will surely make less than a 30-minute operation done by a dermatologist... Blah I'm not gonna rant.

Anyway, I think it is fitting that milmed pays primary care physicians almost as much as surgeons.. the vast divide is unjustified in the civilian medical system, imho. Perhaps the problem is that milmed should pay more across the board, not that specialists are undercompensated. In my opinion, it is the civilian system that should change to resemble a more functional version of the military system.
 

apoptosisisfun

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As I have said before and will continue to espouse, the military route is a great one for SOME PEOPLE. It all depends on the a priori values of the individual (money, stability, control, service, etc.). I want this site to be an (as much as humanly possible) unbiased account of the medical corps, and right now the scales are a bit tilted.

I was using it as a point as to why one entering a "broken system" is not necessarily giving up working in a non-dysfunctional one. Socialized or not, our civilian medical "system" is f*cked up.

These are reasons, at least to me, why threads such as this one exist. In contrast to the overwhelming majority of pessimism I've seen on the forums, while actually shadowing doctors I've seen the exact opposite. It's been the civilian docs who have told me how "f*cked up" the system is and the milmed guys have all been enthusiastic about their profession.

Call it a luck-of-the-draw, but perhaps other people may be seeing this as well.
 

USAFdoc

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These are reasons, at least to me, why threads such as this one exist. In contrast to the overwhelming majority of pessimism I've seen on the forums, while actually shadowing doctors I've seen the exact opposite. It's been the civilian docs who have told me how "f*cked up" the system is and the milmed guys have all been enthusiastic about their profession.

Call it a luck-of-the-draw, but perhaps other people may be seeing this as well.

speaking ONLY to Milmed Primary Care;

MilMed Primary Care is "Very Messed Up"

this is true (in general) in ALL Locales except:
1) Military Acadamy(s)
2)Residency Locales
3) Overseas
4) Rare other locales

granted,this is a generality, but during my career,I knew FIRSTHAND active duty FPS and IM docs and 100% said what I am stating here. I have heard decent things about residency locales, overseas locales, the Colo. Acadamy.

I believe what happens is that most med students and residents are much more likely to see one of the better locales during thier training and one the the broken locales once they are actually practicing on their own.
:idea:

here is a letter to the editor from US Medicine talking about physician retention. Its about 6-7 years old but goes with what I saw 2-3 years ago,and likely is still going on:

http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=152&issueID=23

Military Physicians Leave For A Plethora Of Reasons
I have been reading several of the articles in your publication concerning military physician retention. I have recent experience with military medicine and find much of what has been written very accurate.

I do wish to add some things:
During my four year stint in the military I did not witness one single physician with the rank of O-4 or below remain in the military beyond their initial obligation for HPSP or USUHS. Thus, from what I have seen, military physician retention at the rank of O-4 and below is zero. This goes for all specialties across the board.

The only physicians I have seen stay are those in ranks of O-5 and above who seem "stuck" in the system for whatever reason. But, they are certainly in the minority and are mostly in administrative non-clinical jobs.

This all combines to produce a practicing military medical corps that is consistently youthful and relatively inexperienced.

Why this severe military physician retention problem? Obviously, the military is not a good place to practice medicine. Here are some contributing factors:

Low Pay and Difficult Working Conditions. Why continue to work for the federal government, [which] is consistently demanding more and more from physicians, when one can go to the private sector and still work as hard but be much better compensated for it?
This is true for all specialties and is a "no-brainer."

Inadequate Retirement Plan. The retirement plan is not a good deal for physicians. This is because it is based upon "base pay" only, and is not based upon the total income.

Too much Managed Care. The military now seems to have a love affair with managed care, and has forced it upon its physicians. Unless one shares this passion for managed care, practicing medicine in the military, especially as a "PCM," is demanding, difficult and frustrating.
This is mainly because one does not have the autonomy to limit the amount of HMO patients in his or her practice. Military medicine (in the MTF) is now 100 per cent HMO.
One primary care physician who recently left the military described the experience as "hellish" because of this. This leads to the next reason.

Lack of Autonomy. All physicians place a high degree of value upon this, whether they are willing to admit it or not. Most, if not all, physicians are strong-willed, independent people or they would not have the "right stuff" to get into and through the rigors of medical school and residency. (If the military allowed them a residency—which is a whole other problem.)
Military physicians, simply because of the organization they are in, have less autonomy than any others. Granted, this is given up when one chooses to "sign on the dotted line" and accept money from the government for medical education. But as soon as freedom can be regained, most take advantage of the opportunity.
However just because one "belongs" to the military does not mean that there needs to be as much micromanagement of military medical practice that there now seems to be. This micromanagement is a direct result of total "managed care."

Loss of Traditional, "Old-Fashioned" Medical Values. Military medicine now seems to be concerned more with numbers such as "metrics" and "productivity." Whatever happened to the patient?
The patient seems to have become lost in all this. In fact, the patient no longer exists at all; this is evidenced by the fact that the patient has become a "customer."
Pardon me, but a "customer" is someone who buys a hamburger from McDonald's. A "patient" is someone who seeks the help of a physician. But wait, the physician has been lost also, the physician no longer exists either but is now a "provider." So, we have "customers" "accessing" "providers." This doesn't sound like medicine at all. Sounds more like business doesn't it?
So, there we have it folks, military medicine is now all about business. What is business all about? MONEY. So, what is military medicine all about now? MONEY.
Yes, private practice is about earning money also, but it is not the prime focus. Believe it or not, most physicians I know did go to medical school because they wanted to help people. People are what is most important in their lives, not making money. On the other hand, the prime focus of military healthcare as a whole now seems to be centered around money.
What does this have to do with physician retention? Practicing medicine in such an overly cost-conscious environment is often very difficult and frustrating because of the limitations that are imposed in an effort to preserve that which is valued the most: money.
What limitations? Limited pharmacy formularies, strict referral criteria, and the many other limitations imposed by managed care.

Career Progression Leads Out of Clinical Medicine. In the military, achieving higher rank (and thus higher pay), almost certainly means leaving the practice of medicine for a "desk job." This is a good thing for physicians who don't want to practice medicine anymore, for whatever reason. But for most who want to continue the full time practice of medicine AND experience career progression, there is only one direction to go: out.

Promotion Dependent upon Unnecessary Non-Applicable Professional Military Education. In the military, physicians cannot be promoted beyond the rank of O-4 without "Professional Military Education." This "PME" is not geared toward medical officers in any way shape or form, but rather is totally oriented toward line officers. For a physician who wants to become a line officer, this is probably a necessary thing, but how many of those are there?
Furthermore, I doubt we will ever see a medical officer in command of a line organization.

Little or No Professional Development. The military continues to deny medical school graduates the opportunity to obtain a seamless medical education from medical school through residency before entering practice.
The military has come under congressional heat for this and deserves every bit of it. Hopefully, Congress will keep the pressure on to put an end to this archaic practice. No need is so great as to justify this.
All too often, these unfortunate physicians must serve out their entire time with incomplete medical training, because the military then refuses to provide them with the additional education they need and ask for, or they are so disillusioned and disappointed with their military medical experience (after what has happened to them) that they just want to get it behind them. This goes for GMOs and GMO-flight surgeons.
Speaking of GMO-flight surgeons, isn't it baffling that its pilots—among the military's most valuable human assets—are being cared for by its least trained physicians? Go figure.

This list is by no means exhaustive. I could go on and on, but I think most would agree that I have hit the big ones.
Will anything be done to correct all this and thus the physician retention problems? It's anybody's guess.
 

Mirror Form

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These are reasons, at least to me, why threads such as this one exist. In contrast to the overwhelming majority of pessimism I've seen on the forums, while actually shadowing doctors I've seen the exact opposite. It's been the civilian docs who have told me how "f*cked up" the system is and the milmed guys have all been enthusiastic about their profession.

Call it a luck-of-the-draw, but perhaps other people may be seeing this as well.

Great, so along with all the positive posts from med students, we now have pre-med students telling us how great military medicine is.

I'm not trying to be rude, but are you sure you've been asking the right questions of the milmed docs? Why don't you ask them (off the record of course) if they would do HPSP again?
 

Perrotfish

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Great, so along with all the positive posts from med students, we now have pre-med students telling us how great military medicine is.

I'm not trying to be rude, but are you sure you've been asking the right questions of the milmed docs? Why don't you ask them (off the record of course) if they would do HPSP again?
I´ve done this with several post-milimed docs. 1 ortho, 1 plastics, 1 FP, 2 IM. All said they would do it over again (the plastics is still in the reserves and the FP finished 20, everyone else said they left for only financial reasons). Again, not trying to discount your experience, or to say that my in-person interviews aren´t skewed positive (all were straight through training, for one thing), but we´re not idiots. We know how to ask someone ´did you like military medicine´.
 

apoptosisisfun

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Great, so along with all the positive posts from med students, we now have pre-med students telling us how great military medicine is.

I'm not trying to be rude, but are you sure you've been asking the right questions of the milmed docs? Why don't you ask them (off the record of course) if they would do HPSP again?

I'm not attempting to tell you how great military medicine is; I'm trying to reconcile/understand the immense difference in opinion between the posters here and the people I've talked to irl.

Nearly all my questions I've discussed (in reference to the milmed docs) have been directly from the "AVOID MILITARY MEDICINE if possible" and "Cons of Military Medicine" threads.
 

BomberDoc

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I can tell you that each and every premed that I have ever talked to face-to-face came back to tell me that they opted against military medicine. Many are former patients of mine who decided to get out of the military and pursue medicine. I do encourage people to go into medicine (if they have asked enough of the hard questions and they know enough about themselves), but I strongly fervently discourage the military as a path to pursue medicine. My patients see what is happening on their side of the coin and realize that the slow march of milmed being outsourced "downtown" and our MTFs shrinking into clinics (referral centers) is a very bad thing for those practicing and those receiving medical care.
 

a1qwerty55

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Loss of Traditional, "Old-Fashioned" Medical Values. Military medicine now seems to be concerned more with numbers such as "metrics" and "productivity." Whatever happened to the patient?

The patient seems to have become lost in all this. In fact, the patient no longer exists at all; this is evidenced by the fact that the patient has become a "customer."
Pardon me, but a "customer" is someone who buys a hamburger from McDonald's. A "patient" is someone who seeks the help of a physician. But wait, the physician has been lost also, the physician no longer exists either but is now a "provider." So, we have "customers" "accessing" "providers." This doesn't sound like medicine at all. Sounds more like business doesn't it?

The Military didn't invent the euphamisms of "customer", "healthcare provider" etc. These came from the civilian world and were adopted by military administrators trying to embrace the HMO disaster in the civilian world.

Career Progression Leads Out of Clinical Medicine. In the military, achieving higher rank (and thus higher pay), almost certainly means leaving the practice of medicine for a "desk job." This is a good thing for physicians who don't want to practice medicine anymore, for whatever reason. But for most who want to continue the full time practice of medicine AND experience career progression, there is only one direction to go: out.

Flat out incorrect unless you define career progression as becoming a general. I can't speak for the USAF, but in the Army there is a well recognized clinical track, which means you can expect to retire as an O-6 (COL) even if you never took a Command position.


Promotion Dependent upon Unnecessary Non-Applicable Professional Military Education. In the military, physicians cannot be promoted beyond the rank of O-4 without "Professional Military Education." This "PME" is not geared toward medical officers in any way shape or form, but rather is totally oriented toward line officers
I agree that the professional military education isn't really very applicable to the Medical Corps but, it isn't correct to say you can't get promoted without it. Example - promotion rate for COL in the Army without ILE (military training for mid level officers) was about 50%, those with it had a 90% select rate. When you post and use the term "military" maybe you should use USAF.

Little or No Professional Development. The military continues to deny medical school graduates the opportunity to obtain a seamless medical education from medical school through residency before entering practice.
. Again substitute USAF or USN for military.
 

USAFdoc

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You're banging your head against the wall here. You will never get any of these guys to acknowledge anyone else's positive experiences, and any positives they admit to are always qualified by "but the negatives were far far worse".


Wrong. I will say there are decent places out there and I mentioned a few. What I am also saying is that most places FPs end up practicing are "broken" and probably wont be fixed (unless you want to call replacing milmed FPs with civilian docs as the fix because that is the plan).

Few things in life and medicine are 100% bad/good,and milmed is no different. But what I saw going on during my time was "reckless" and "wrong" for both patients and staff. I refused to look the other way, so like many docs, I walked the other way.
 

Perrotfish

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For those who were interested: went to MEPS. As expected I was the only officer candidate/person over 20/one not in jeans. Surprisingly though, everything/one else was pretty professional, including the 18 year olds. It was efficient enough that I was virtually never waiting without having a procedure done, no loud jackasses to make it unpleasant, phlebotimist was good, and I was done by 10:30

HOWEVER I got a psyche consult (once saw a psychiatrist for 3 months). This is not a big deal except that I am leaving the country in less than a week and won't be able to do anything for MEPS until I get back in June. Therefore 1) I won't get to go to ODS this summer and 2) my MEPS paperwork might expire before I get back. Therefore I might get to go through the entire process once again. Not their fault, of course, but still plenty annoying.

Just thought I'd share.
 

73BARMYPgsp

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For those who were interested: went to MEPS. As expected I was the only officer candidate/person over 20/one not in jeans. Surprisingly though, everything/one else was pretty professional, including the 18 year olds. It was efficient enough that I was virtually never waiting without having a procedure done, no loud jackasses to make it unpleasant, phlebotimist was good, and I was done by 10:30

HOWEVER I got a psyche consult (once saw a psychiatrist for 3 months). This is not a big deal except that I am leaving the country in less than a week and won't be able to do anything for MEPS until I get back in June. Therefore 1) I won't get to go to ODS this summer and 2) my MEPS paperwork might expire before I get back. Therefore I might get to go through the entire process once again. Not their fault, of course, but still plenty annoying.

Just thought I'd share.

In my program (PhD clinpsych) therapy is required. I told them that and the Doc understood. I was a little worried about answering "yes" to that question though.
 
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