Is there Affirmative Action?

[FutureAnesthesiologist87]

Data from past medical school acceptance rates show that there is affirmative action against Whites and especially Asians. I understand that this may be the case in private schools, but what about public schools in states that banned affirmative action like the University of Washington, the University of Florida, or the University of Michigan

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[aalamruad]

Good lord here we go

 

[greenturtle22]

Lolol I was wondering how long it would be until another of these threads...

 

[Kgizzle]

Damn it sounds like it sucks to be white or asian

 

[Azete]

Of the bottom 10 students in our class; 7 are black, 2 are hispanic, 1 is white. Of the top 10 students in our class; 4 are asian, 5 are white, 1 is hispanic.

These are facts, and you can choose to interpret that however you will.

 

[BurghStudent]

You'd need numbers from those schools specifically to determine the answer. And I doubt they'd ever release such information.

 

[LizzyM]

University of Michigan has 26 URM (underrepresented in medicine) in its M1 class. That's 15.3%

"University of Florida College of Medicine recognizes that medical education, healthcare excellence and health equity will best be achieved by a diverse and inclusive healthcare workforce caring for diverse patients in a multicultural environment." --Statement on Diversity

The UW School of Medicine supports diversity through the following initiatives:

• Utilizing departmental diversity metrics to make the School more inclusive
• Creating a solid, mission-based holistic admissions process for medical student selection
• Awarding UW School of Medicine Diversity Scholarships
• Supporting affinity-based community groups that provide resources and mentoring
• Providing ways for our entire WWAMI community to engage in diversity efforts that improve health outcomes for all
• And more…

If you want to go to medical school, do the best you can in school and in life. If you are good enough compared to your peer group, you will get a spot. Keep in mind that >50% of people in each racial group are not good enough to get a spot. If you want to know what your peer group is going academically, Google "aamc table 24" and look at your race specific table.

 

[oosethegoose]

What about us Jews?

 

[freak7]

What about us Jews?

Depends, are you an Asian Jew?

 

[oosethegoose]

Depends, are you an Asian Jew?

HA no. I love how we have this back and forth going on in 2 threads lol

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What about us Jews?

Super overrepresented. Although we control the World Bank, so that probably negates the ORM status.

 

[oosethegoose]

Early in the app cycle I received a letter from HMS urging me to apply because my stats are in the accepted range AND I am an URM. The letter was sent to my mom's house and she was so confused when she read it. Still not really sure why I got it...maybe because I am a Jew? Stereotypically highly represented in medicine, but maybe due to the small amount of Jews in the world? Never figured this out...all I know is I sure as hell could not have gotten into HMS

 

[aalamruad]

Early in the app cycle I received a letter from HMS urging me to apply because my stats are in the accepted range AND I am an URM. The letter was sent to my mom's house and she was so confused when she read it. Still not really sure why I got it...maybe because I am a Jew? Stereotypically highly represented in medicine, but maybe due to the small amount of Jews in the world? Never figured this out...all I know is I sure as hell could not have gotten into HMS

You receive that letter if you're considered SES disadvantaged by AMCAS (e.g. if neither of your parents graduated from college)

 

[Lucca]

Of the bottom 10 students in our class; 7 are black, 2 are hispanic, 1 is white. Of the top 10 students in our class; 4 are asian, 5 are white, 1 is hispanic.

These are facts, and you can choose to interpret that however you will.

Ah but who is the most fun at parties? Guessing it's not you.

 

[oosethegoose]

Ah well they both graduated from college and I can't think why else I would be considered disadvantaged. It will just be the great mystery of my life.

 

[redsox93]

Early in the app cycle I received a letter from HMS urging me to apply because my stats are in the accepted range AND I am an URM. The letter was sent to my mom's house and she was so confused when she read it. Still not really sure why I got it...maybe because I am a Jew? Stereotypically highly represented in medicine, but maybe due to the small amount of Jews in the world? Never figured this out...all I know is I sure as hell could not have gotten into HMS

Got this too. I'm about as white as you can be but I think it has to do with SES not URM

 

[freak7]

Ah but who is the most fun at parties? Guessing it's not you.

What are you taking about? Every party I ever attended I handed out surveys of class rank and racial self-identification. Then I'd hide in my room while I aggregated the data!

 

[oosethegoose]

got it...i figured it out. MYSTERY SOLVED

Wow I thought I was a lot more interesting than I knew...turns out my mom is just a nurse

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

got it...i figured it out. MYSTERY SOLVED

Wow I thought I was a lot more interesting than I knew...turns out my mom is just a nurse

My wife is a nurse. Does that count?

 

[oosethegoose]

My wife is a nurse. Does that count?

It means you can get into HMS without even trying!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It means you can get into HMS without even trying!

I'm a Jew who found Jesus though. Not sure if that makes me less of a URM or more of a URM.

 

[Azete]

Ah but who is the most fun at parties? Guessing it's not you.

ok

 

[Kgizzle]

It means you can get into HMS without even trying!

If you're URM...

 

[oosethegoose]

I'm a Jew who found Jesus though. Not sure if that makes me less of a URM or more of a URM.

I wrote a good paper about you in college

 

[redsox93]

I'm a Jew who found Jesus though. Not sure if that makes me less of a URM or more of a URM.

where'd you find him?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

where'd you find him?

In my heart.

Edit: that sounds super creepy and/or Bible thumper, of which I am neither btw.

 

[oosethegoose]

where'd you find him?

I heard he was found in a CD/record store in Quahog, RI

(thanks Family Guy)

 

[Goro]

5% of the US population is Asian, yet at most med schools, ~30% of the class is (it's ~40% at mine).

So how exactly are Asians discriminated against?

Even at the HBC's ~10% of the classes are Asian.

Asians and whites are over-represented in Medicine, hence the need for URM policies in med school admissions. There are clinical outcomes riding on this.

Data from past medical school acceptance rates show that there is affirmative action against Whites and especially Asians. I understand that this may be the case in private schools, but what about public schools in states that banned affirmative action like the University of Washington, the University of Florida, or the University of Michigan

 

[mimelim]

Of the bottom 10 students in our class; 7 are black, 2 are hispanic, 1 is white. Of the top 10 students in our class; 4 are asian, 5 are white, 1 is hispanic.

These are facts, and you can choose to interpret that however you will.

Of those 20 how many will become functional physicians?

 

[freak7]

Of those 20 how many will become functional physicians?

... 20?

 

[Azete]

Of those 20 how many will become functional physicians?

I don't disagree with the process. You certainly don't need to be a genius to become a good doctor.

OP asked about affirmative action, and in my anecdotal case it obviously exists.

You could fill every med school seat with the number of qualified whites and Asians in the applicant pool and probably end up with better academic performance, but that doesn't mean it would lead to the best clinical outcomes.

 

[eteshoe]

... 20?

Provided they jump through all the necessary hoops

 

[Goro]

I think that my learned colleague means "of those 10, how many..."

Which is like the old joke:

"What do you call the person who graduates last in his/her med school class?"

"Doctor".

Do not be the typical stats-obsessed person who thinks GPA is the be-all and end all. It's not. One of my all time worst students is now an anesthesiologist in the northwest. Another bottom dweller got into surgery.

Of those 20 how many will become functional physicians?

 

[ZedsDed]

I'm just going to leave this here:
https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

One of the constraints on a permissible admissions program set out by the Court is the prohibition of "racial balancing" as a purpose. The following passage in Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's opinion of the Court was cited repeatedly by the dissenters: 2 The Law School's interest is not simply "to assure within its student body some specified percentage of a particular group merely because of its race or ethnic origin."(quoting from Bakke) That would amount to racial balancing, which is patently unconstitutional. Consequently, because striving for "population parity" is tantamount to seeking a goal of "racial balancing," both the AAMC and its member medical schools must avoid this formulation as the animating force of our efforts. Instead, institutional language and thinking about the purpose of affirmative action must focus on the educational benefits of diversity. Using this concept, and consistent with the Court recognizing the military and business communities' need for a diverse workforce and leadership cadre, the AAMC views the educational benefits of diversity as including its contributions to improving both the cultural competence of the physicians our schools educate and improving access to care for underserved populations.

Have a good day everyone

 

[Endoxifen]

It means you can get into HMS without even trying!

I'm jewish and a dual citizen. When can I collect my HMS acceptance letter?

 

[FutureAnesthesiologist87]

I wasn't asking about all medical schools. Just the public ones in states without affrimative action like CA,FL,MI, WA. For example, UC Berkley doesn't have Aff. Action for undergrad. Will they have it for medical school?

 

[BurghStudent]

I'm not Jewish. Thanks Obama.

 

[Goro]

CA especially will, according to the wise @gyngyn.

Here's an example:
http://medschool.ucsf.edu/chairs-and-directors-council-diversity


Based upon PMs from SDNers, U WV and IU do as well.

I wasn't asking about all medical schools. Just the public ones in states without affrimative action like CA,FL,MI, WA. For example, UC Berkley doesn't have Aff. Action for undergrad. Will they have it for medical school?

 

[DocJuan]

Are Nigerians and Haitians underrepresented?

 

[SValley]

If you don't get into medical school OP, it will not...nor will it ever be...because of affirmative action. understand it, live it, breath it, repeat it to yourself in the mirror.

 

[Lucca]

I wasn't asking about all medical schools. Just the public ones in states without affrimative action like CA,FL,MI, WA. For example, UC Berkley doesn't have Aff. Action for undergrad. Will they have it for medical school?

They will still have some preferences for diverse candidates, even in those states. That's because what medical schools practice is not "affirmative action" by the legal definition, only by the colloquial shorthand on SDN is it called that.

 

[Whyamionhere]

I wasn't asking about all medical schools. Just the public ones in states without affrimative action like CA,FL,MI, WA. For example, UC Berkley doesn't have Aff. Action for undergrad. Will they have it for medical school?

UW (WA) is tricky bc although the Seattle site seems to strive for and achieve a racially diverse student body - 3 of the WWAMI states that fall under UW School of Medicine - Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho - are 90+% white and their admissions are also under UW but are only for residents of those states, so I would imagine that sadly they don't even have many non-white applicants to matriculate. However even at the Seattle site, white and Asian students are the majority

 

[freak7]

UW (WA) is tricky bc although the Seattle site seems to strive for and achieve a racially diverse student body - 3 of the WWAMI states that fall under UW School of Medicine - Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho - are 90+% white and their admissions are also under UW but are only for residents of those states, so I would imagine that sadly they don't even have many non-white applicants to matriculate. However even at the Seattle site, white and Asian students are the majority

Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho probably have a lot of Native American applicants though I'd bet.

Edit: Spelling

 

[LizzyM]

Keep in mind that the LCME, the accrediting body for medical schools, judges schools on their success in attracting and retaining a diverse student body and a diverse workforce (faculty and staff). Agree with @freak7 that URM and diversity can mean different things in different regions and Native Americans are often considered URM.

 

[Whyamionhere]

Wyomin, Montana, and Idaho probably have a lot of Native American applicants though I'd bet.

True - hopefully so!

 

[mimelim]

... 20?

I think that my learned colleague means "of those 10, how many..."

Which is like the old joke:

"What do you call the person who graduates last in his/her med school class?"

"Doctor".

Do not be the typical stats-obsessed person who thinks GPA is the be-all and end all. It's not. One of my all time worst students is now an anesthesiologist in the northwest. Another bottom dweller got into surgery.

You guys can't add. Azete mentions the top 10 students and the bottom 10 students. 10 + 10 = 20

I don't disagree with the process. You certainly don't need to be a genius to become a good doctor.

OP asked about affirmative action, and in my anecdotal case it obviously exists.

You could fill every med school seat with the number of qualified whites and Asians in the applicant pool and probably end up with better academic performance, but that doesn't mean it would lead to the best clinical outcomes.

I don't know how students doing well or poorly and their ethnic breakdown is evidence for or against affirmative action existing or not. The causality is a bit wonky.

 

[redsox93]

... 20?

You guys can't add. Azete mentions the top 10 students and the bottom 10 students. 10 + 10 = 20



I don't know how students doing well or poorly and their ethnic breakdown is evidence for or against affirmative action existing or not. The causality is a bit wonky.

 

[freak7]

You guys can't add. Azete mentions the top 10 students and the bottom 10 students. 10 + 10 = 20



I don't know how students doing well or poorly and their ethnic breakdown is evidence for or against affirmative action existing or not. The causality is a bit wonky.

I was guessing 20 as the answer to your question, not questioning where you got the number 20 from.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Just as we do not tolerate MD v DO threads, we do not tolerate anti-diversity threads in the pre-medical forum. These will be closed or moved to the Sociopolitical Forum.

Why? Anti-diversity threads are not helpful in the discussion of how to get into medical school. Medical students are not selected by LizzyM score alone. The academic community has an obligation to build a diverse physician workforce for the health of our nation. Therefore, medical schools choose applicants based on grades, MCATs, history and background.

Please read stickies before posting. This topic has been discussed more times than there are atoms of hydrogen in the ocean. If you are truly looking for information, please use the search function - I promise if you look hard enough, your questions will be answered.