Is this even legal? AANA Billboard Discriminates against AA's..

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by IrishTwins, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. IrishTwins

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    http://everhadgas.com/

    Read the "comparison chart."

    I particularly enjoyed Admission Requirements, Pre-req Coursework, Pre-program Health or Patient Care Education, Experience, or Credentials Required, Pre-Program Acute Healthcare Competencies, Didactic Education, Scope of Training, and Autonomy in Practice.

    A billboard I passed on I-70 lead me to the site that said, "Know your anesthesia provider like you know your surgeon."
     
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  3. stewiegriffinFG

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    http://www.egmwebservices.com/client_list.asp

    Guess who one of their clients is? Missouri Association of Nurse Anesthetists.

    I'm not sure on the illegality of this. The website presents itself as an objective source, but it has no author or group description. Instead of having the balls to actually put their name on the site, they cower in the corner spewing garbage at passerbys. Lame.
     
  4. coprolalia

    coprolalia Bored Certified

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    Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! :smuggrin::thumbup:

    -copro
     
  5. jwk

    jwk CAA, ASA-PAC Contributor

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    Lame doesn't even begin to cover it. Don't you love the part about physicians having four years of medical, except for those pesky 6yr programs where they combine college and medical school?

    And of course they leave out the part that many thousands upon thousands of CRNA's currently in practice have no degree whatsoever. But the AANA and it's affiliated organizations would never let facts get in the way of fiction.

    How did you track down the website host or developer and tie them to MoANA?
     
  6. coprolalia

    coprolalia Bored Certified

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    Are you sure about this?

    -copro
     
  7. jwk

    jwk CAA, ASA-PAC Contributor

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    Absolutely.

    Many moons ago, most RN's were trained in either 2 yr associate degree programs or 3 year hospital-based RN programs which awarded a nursing diploma, NOT a degree. CRNA programs around the country, MANY of them hospital-based back in the 70's and 80's, did not have degree-granting capability, nor was a degree required for certification. Those hospital programs awarded a certificate in nurse anesthesia.

    So, there are many thousands of CRNA's in practice today with either a 2 yr ASN or 3 yr nursing diploma (no BSN), and a certificate from a hospital based CRNA training program. Many of them are still in their mid 40's to early 50's.

    It's pretty easy to spot the non-degreed CRNA's. Look on some of the state CRNA association websites (or other publications). Nurses in general just love to put a string of initials after their names. John Doe, CRNA, MSN, BSN, ACLS, BLS, PALS clearly has a degree. The ones that might say Jane Doe, CRNA, frequently do not. I also find interesting the ones that would lead you to believe their master's degree is in anesthesia, but if that degree is MEd or something similar, they don't. They're quick to include that MEd in that string of initials, although interestingly, I've never seen a CRNA include their ASN in their credentials list, although there are many of them out there. I guess Jane Doe, CRNA, ASN just doesn't quite have that same ring to it.

    The requirements to have a BSN and a year of critical care nursing (which is open to interpretation by each individual program) as a pre-requisite to enter a CRNA program are relatively new concepts that came about in the late 80's and early 90's. And as the Master's Degree for nurse anesthetists became a requirement for the CRNA programs, many of those certificate-only programs had to close since they had no affiliation with a university that could grant a degree.
     
  8. stewiegriffinFG

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    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=whois+everhadgas.com&btnG=Search

    http://whois.domaintools.com/everhadgas.com





    http://egroupmanager.com/



    go to services:



    then go to their client list:



    http://www.egmwebservices.com/client_list.asp



    Only thing remotely to do with anesthesia is the Missouri Association of Nurse Anesthetists. Missouri is one of the states where I-70 passes through.




    30 seconds is all it takes.


    Certainty of connection: 96%.


    And you have to ask the question: what group would be so vehemently self-serving to buy billboard ad space to advertise what CRNAs are, and how "bad" anesthesiologist assistants are? A CRNA group.


    Oh, and the OFFICIAL MoANA website is managed by a completely different company:
    http://whois.domaintools.com/moana.org
     
  9. pd4emergence

    pd4emergence Man or Muppet?

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    I wish the ASA would start taking out billboards. I think if people really knew who was taking care of them during an anesthetic they would demand that an anesthesiologist participate in their care. Until they do our legislators will continue to be swayed by the AANA's spin on the issues. Let the public know that the AANA wants nurses alone to be able to provide anesthetics without a physician involved. They also need to know that the surgeon doesn't count in the above situation.
     
  10. jwk

    jwk CAA, ASA-PAC Contributor

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    Why stoop to the AANA's level? Stick with facts, not lies and propaganda.
     
  11. IrishTwins

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    pm'ed you JWK.

    I agree, btw. I was aghast at how dirty their antics were. I really couldn't believe what I was reading! It just seems so slimy. I don't understand why they would be so, as said earlier, self-serving, and just downright nasty. Surely their compensation won't suffer much, if at all, given the future of healthcare needs...? I guess that's all been discussed before, I was just taken aback by it, especially since I want to eventually be working in MO as an AA...
     
  12. coprolalia

    coprolalia Bored Certified

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    Well, I at least gotta hand it to the AANA for trying to "step it up" as far as degree requirements and overall training. But, ulitmately, this is still only six years of formal education, I recognize.

    AA's will also have six years of formal education - four-year bachelor's degree plus a two-year post-graduate degree specific to anesthesiology.

    I like the fact that AA's recognize the limit of their training. I agree that a BSN plus one-year of CC training, then a two-year CRNA school does not necessarily a proficient clinician make. I have worked with some of these newly minted 25-year-old CRNAs, and it is scary what they don't know or understand.

    Fact is, most of what we do is experiential. As anesthesiologists, in addition to a four-year post-graduate degree in medicine where we learn the intracacies of the human body and its disease states, we also have an additional four-years of formalized, supervised training by other physicians in our field. I believe we are taught to consider many more variables concerning the whole patient's care. We are exposed to a far wider range of pathology and clinical scenario while still in a formalized, supervised milieu. Most importantly, we are taught to make decisions and to stand by those decisions, good or bad. This is part of the "hidden curriculum" of medical school and residency. It does not exist in the nursing field. There is always someone to fall back upon when a nurse doesn't know what the best course of action is. There is always a "higher layer" of responsibility in their practice. Though they may contest that, it is a fact as part of their training. Patient management decisions are limited to their nursing role, not to the ultimate outcome and responsibility of that patient's global care.

    What worries me most is the small contingent of militant CRNAs who don't think that extra training matters. The fact is that once you complete that formalized portion of your training, the rest is suddenly up to you. You either keep current and continue to learn, or you don't. The individualized portion of being a clinician becomes paramount. And, it is critical that you have the strongest foundation possible, in all realms, when you become an independent practitioner.

    I'm certain that there are CRNAs out there, many of them, who would be capable of independent practice. I've met some of them. They adhere to best clinical practice and they strive to stay current, understand at a deeper level what they're doing, and genuinely are very intelligent people with their patient's best interest in mind.

    Problem is, there are an equal many who aren't.

    Now, some of the ones who aren't may recognize their limitations and choose to continue to practice in the Anesthesia Care Team model. However, now that you've cracked the lid on the box, the ones who "don't know what they don't know" and can't appreciate their own limitations will want to crawl out. I don't know how you account for those while being far to the others, if you blanketly allow CRNAs to engage in fully unsupervised care, especially in the truly complex cases that we are additionally trained to handle.

    Fact is, it's mostly only sick people that come to the hospital for care. And, we are living in a society that is going to soon be crushed by the wave of retiring baby boomers. Couple that with the fact that we also live in a society where obesity is an epidemic, and those patients have their own set of specific medical problems and concerns. I just don't know how you account for and monitor independent decision making in a cohort of practitioners that may not fully appreciate, despite their protestations to the contrary, all the things that could go wrong in that situation.

    Proof is that two heads are better than one, and the two limited and flawed outcome studies that have been done to date at the very least agree upon that. If the AA model truly wishes to only operate in this paradigm, and will not 20 years from now find itself in the same situation as the AANA, then I say we do away completely with CRNAs. It's not worth the political hassle they are dredging up. They are distracting the public and politicians from us giving what is agreeably the best possible patient care model. They are gaming the legal system to meet a selfish end.

    If this is the way it should continue, we, as a profession, need to focus our efforts on advancing the causes of the AAAA. We should not even entertain, advance, or empower - or perhaps even recognize - the efforts of the AANA, unless the legal system compels us. We should be working to get schools opened and legislation approved in all 50 states. We should be advertising, or helping them advertise, their profession. This could all be done in the most positive and creative of ways. The team concept is one that is golden among patients. They like to know that more people will be taking care of them, and that a doctor is always directly in charge of that aspect of their care.

    What we need to do now is help build that infrastructure so that we can do this realistically. It will take years. We should even invite nurses, freshly minted out of nursing school and who are interested in anesthesia as a career, directly into AA school without requiring the requisite 1-year of CC experience.

    This is the way you win the cause.

    -copro
     
  13. Taurus

    Taurus Paul Revere of Medicine

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    Right on, bro. :thumbup:
     
  14. Dejavu

    Dejavu ASA Member

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    I know this to be true. I was one of them before returning to premed, Med school, and anesth residency. I went to a diploma 3 yr nursing program, got accepted to a hospital-based CRNA program at a small 150 bed hospital with 6 ORs, got certified, worked for ten years and would still be working without any degrees if I hadn't decided to go back and get an MD and do a residency.

    I know many people trained in that fashion still working today.
     
  15. jwk

    jwk CAA, ASA-PAC Contributor

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    We've had quite a few RN's go through the various AA programs - we even have a nurse practitioner going through one of the programs now.
     
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  17. Josh L.Ac.

    Josh L.Ac. MSA/LAc & BSN/RN --> AA-S

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    ...and hopefully an ex-nurse practitioner student next January.





    One of the striking items on the comparison table is the comparison of undergraduate education between nurses and AA's. While those that wrote the chart obviously believe their BSN's were more than comparable [in terms of content and difficulty] to the average AA's bachelor's in biology, they are horribly wrong. I've done both bachelor's programs and nursing was a walk in the park compared to biology and chemistry.

    Once again, the "not knowing what you don't know" fallacy rears its ugly head.



    If SRNA's really want to show off their base knowledge versus AA students, they should take the MCAT instead of the GRE. Then we could all see how the BSN curriculum and 1+ year of acute care experience stack up to the AA student's prerequisites.
     

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