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Is this True ? (Cal Applicants and UC applicants in general)

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by biobossx99, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. biobossx99

    biobossx99 Member
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    I think I brought this up earlier, asked about it but got a mixed answer from a bunch of people. I hope it isn't true.

    "Question: Where do most Cal graduates go to attend medical school?
    Answer: To an out-of-state private medical school. Why? Because there are a huge number of California residents vying for seats in the UC medical schools (this is the case for residents of NY and Texas applying to their state institutions also, by the way)."

    Is that really the case? Reading from many posts on this forum, I thought you should apply locally because they want to admit local students?

    One of our career counselors mailed this out.
     
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  3. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    Its quite true.

    While CA schools DO take a majority of local (californian) students, there just arent enough slots to go around, so the huge number of CA students applying means that most of us will have to go out of state, and only the lucky ones get to stay. Thats the price of having a lot of premeds from CA.

    edit: incidently I'm one of those that wil probably end up going to an out of state private school.

    The ratios in NY and TX arent nearly as bad, so those premeds tend to stay in their states.
     
  4. ek6

    ek6 Senior Member
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    I would have to agree with that statement. Check out the MSAR book or the Princeton Review Medical School admissions book - the # of applicants to UC's are way higher than any other state. In addition, their avg. MCAT's and GPA's are higher as a result. Think about it - Calif. is a huge state with only UCLA, UCI, UCSD, UCSF (and 1 more?) as its state schools - in addition, I think stanford and USC are the only other state schools. I feel sorry for California state residents for this reason!

    I applied as a New York resident - we have four SUNY state schools. Yeah, they're pretty hard, but not THAT hard to get into.
     
  5. Adapt

    Adapt 2K Member
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    Or you can go to TUCOM or COMP. It's the loophole in the system.:clap:
     
  6. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    obviously i'm no stats guru, but lets take a look at the '03 stats

    AAMC Stats

    AAMC Stats II



    There are 4000 total Cali applicants and about 2000 matriculate somewhere

    Out of all 4000 applicants:
    20% or 800 matriculate in-state (nat'l Ave=30% but on par with "West Region"=20)
    28% or 1100 Out of state (higher % than nat'l Ave=17%)
    52% or 2100 get dinged (=nat'l ave).


    Bottom line:
    YES, less calis matriculate in-state than vs. the national average. Perhaps the simplest answer is "few spots, many applicants". Should we K.I.S.S.? If you look at the numbers, 800 matriculate in state. If Cali were to follow the nat'l in -state matriculation of 30%, then ~1200 would stay in Cali. thus, an alternate explanation may be that ~400 (1200 minus 800) cali students choose to attend private schools over UC schools (gasp - someone would choose private over a UC school??). Of course, that "choice" might be due to no other alternative. A feasible explanation is that ~half (who knows? n=200) by selectively chose to attend an out of state private (top 10s, scholarships, spouses, wanting an east coast experience) and the other ~half (n=200) werent accepted into a cali school.


    Oh, BTW:

    MCAT GPA by State

    MCAT GPA Scores:
    All Cali applicants: V8.8 P9.7 B9.9 (28.4) 3.42
    Matriculating Cali (in+out): 9.6 10.6 10.8 (30.9) 3.59

    All Nat'l Applicants averages: V8.8 P9.0 B9.3 (27.1) 3.47
    Matriculating Nat'l averages: 9.5 9.9 10.2 (29.6) 3.62

    It may be slightly harder to stay in Cali, but it appears that on a national level, the average cali applicant is neither stronger/ weaker, nor advantaged/ disadvantaged. Its obvious that cali applicants need to distinguish themselves somehow, since pure numbers wont get you noticed in a pool of n=4000 (unless, perhaps your a standard deviation above the averages?). Hell, that applies to anyone.


    the average cali applicant may need to apply to more schools, but i dont think that ridiculous applications (n=90) are warranted, based on these numbers.

    an 'oops' disclaimer:
    those numbers are fudged since stanford, loma, usc are private. oh well. stanford/loma take 40- 50% cali, usc takes 80%.
     
  7. GTea

    GTea Member
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    It is true. While UCs take almost no out-of-staters, each school still receives about 5000 applications per year. So, there just isn't enough spots for everyone. Most people I've known ended up going to an out-of-state medical school.

    Maybe you're mixing up the medical school application and the residency application. As far as I know, most CA med school graduates are successful in securing CA residency positions.

    USC and Stanford are private schools, so they show no preference to CA residents. UC Davis is the one that was missing from the other post by the way.
     
  8. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    A 1.4 point higher total MCAT is a huge difference when comparing such large humbers of people. Its definitely harder.

    What we should get is the MCAT/GPA's for people matriculating in state. i bet those are even higher.
     
  9. gdk420

    gdk420 Senior Member
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    You forgot loma linda and UC davis. :D
     
  10. hakksar

    hakksar Senior Member
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    I am not really trying to start a war here and I think it is hard for ANYONE to get into medical school. However, I am kind of tired of all the UC applicants from California complaining about how hard it is to get into their state's medical school. If you look at some of the other states you will see that people from those states have an even more difficult time being accepted in state. California has 20.5% of applicants who matriculate in state. Oregon has 16.1%, Utah has 18.1%, Washington has 15.1%, and Colorado has 15.7%. Not to mention states like Alaska, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and Maine which all have 0% because there are NO allopathic medical schools in their states. Yeah, part of it is geographic because there are a lot less medical schools in the western region but within the 13 state region only Hawaii, Arizona, and Nevada have a higher percentage matriculate in state than California. Just something to think about when complaining about how hard UC's are to get into.

    Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003slrmat.htm

    edit: some MCAT scores and GPA's for various states for all matriculants:

    Wahington: 10.0, 10.3, 10.8 (31.1) GPA 3.65

    Colorado 9.8, 9.9, 10.5 (30.2) GPA 3.64

    Idaho 10.0, 10.0, 10.5 (30.5) GPA 3.72

    Maine 10.0, 10.1, 10.2 (30.3) GPA 3.61

    Second Edit:
    You make some good points. However, University of Washington is up there in the top 10 as well, Colorado is in the top 50. In addition, people in these states do not have a UCSF to drain up to 80-90% of the top instate applicants. Finally, I wasn't judging but you don't hear me complaining about being a Colorado resident here on SDN. It is even harder for me to stay close to home (especially when you consider we have A LOT of out of state applicants as well). I think the people who are Washington Residents and any of the WAMI states have a lot more to complain about than Colorado or California residents.
     
  11. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    Amen, bro. :thumbup:

    Despite the fact that 4 of 7 med schools are in the top 20, the stats speak for themselves: when compared to the nat'l average, 'only' 10% more cali applicants (n=400) leave the state for medschool.
     
  12. meanderson

    meanderson Senior Member
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    I think those are all good points. I wouldn't want to be a cali applicant, but it's not near the situation some have made it out to be. Just in this forum, there are a good number of people(cali residents) who have gotten into UC schools and don't have outstanding statistics. They appear to be very qualified applicants, but the fact that they got into UC's with average numbers indicates that california schools aren't just for elite students.

    As for the averages, sure, a 1.4 difference in mcat is significant over those numbers of applicants. California is a tough state for premeds, but all competive California applicants should still put most of their efforts into getting into their state schools.
     
  13. bokermmk

    bokermmk Senior Member
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    exmike,

    is drew/UCLA the same school as UCLA?
     
  14. Cube21

    Cube21 Junior Member
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    Another factor (maybe not quite as significant but still important) that I don't think was mentioned is the fact that many of the Cali residents that can get in the UCs are recruited heavily by the private schools with merit scholarships, full rides, constant tuition fees year after year, and with benefits and perks that (mostly) only private schools can offer...so unless that student really wants to stay in Cali (especially with the UC-budget worsening every year and the fact that it is difficult for public schools to offer private perks), many private schools can use their financial benefits as leverage to pull away Cali residents.
     
  15. celticmists18

    celticmists18 california dreaming
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    Perhaps you should look at the schools you are talking about . . .UCSF, one of the best public or private medical schools in the country. UCLA and UCSD, both highly ranked and highly respected. UC Davic and UC Irvine, I would dare to say they ranked/thought of as better than your average state medical school. Since all of th state schools in CA are pretty damn good that increases the competition even more. (FYI if memory serves me right average GPA at UCSD last year was around a 3.85, which is absolutely sickening). Personally, if you aren't a CA applicant you have no idea what we are going through and really you have no right to judge.
     
  16. meanderson

    meanderson Senior Member
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    ?? The previous poster wasn't judging....just simply comparing california to some other states(mainly out west) using objective numbers.

    And sure we have an idea what cali applicants are going through. The myth that you *need* huge numbers and a huge application to get into a UC is just that.....california is a tough state, but it's an insult to students everywhere when cali applicants constantly talk about how medical school admissions for them is a futile effort.
     
  17. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    I dont think anyone from california is saying that applying to med school is futile. we're just saying that trying to stay in state is futile. :(
     
  18. I don't think futile is the right word. Many of the CA applicants on here with mediocre stats got in including you!
     
  19. celticmists18

    celticmists18 california dreaming
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    exactly, I don't think CA applicants are any more or less qualified than everyone else. I just think that most of us can't even consider considering state schools a realistic option because we have no chance in hell of getting in. Example: I received no interviews from the CA schools and 6 from out of states schools (all of good reputation). Again, I would say that you should hesitate to judge if you haven't had first hand experience (but then again dealing out judgement seems to be the MO of everyone on SDN, myself included).
     
  20. LoneCoyote

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    I agree it is not futile. But having done my post-bac work out-of-state and watching people get into their state schools, it is definitely harder to get into a UC, in terms of average GPA and MCAT, than most other state schools. The mediocre students I saw from other states had much lower stats in terms of GPA and MCAT than the "mediocre" stat people here. I'm not saying this is good or bad but just stating what I witnessed firsthand.
     
  21. I don't know, I was told I had no chance in hell but got several interviews and two acceptances, one waitlist. I think alot is just timing, luck, and showing that you are well-rounded. Low to average numbers are by no means going to keep you locked out like people make you believe. I had a friend at my free clinic see my MCAT scores and sigh and tell me that I should take it again to raise the 9 to at least a 10 in verbal because "people without double digits won't get in to UCs" which is basically what EVERYONE at Berkeley says. That, however is complete bull****. People get in with a 27-29 too, its a certainty.
     
  22. celticmists18

    celticmists18 california dreaming
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    I'm not going to go into details about my grades/scores/ECS, but I will say that I have slightly better than averages scores and GPA and I have very well-rounded ECS. My roomate was the same way. Both of us got our application in very early and both of us had our first interviews in early september . . . neither of us got interviews in CA. I really don't think the people you find on SDN are indicative of the general applicant pool.
     
  23. Point well taken. I won't deny that I'm a complete freak of nature. Mwhahaha!
     
  24. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    Some more anecdotal evidence

    I didnt get a single california interview save drew/ucla, yet i got 18 out of state, including publics. yes, it is hard to stay in california.
     
  25. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    UCD 3.55 9.8 10.8 11.1 5.4%
    UCLA 3.73 9.7 11.2 11.2 4.5%
    UCSD 3.7 9.8 11.3 11.6 7.3%
    UCSF 3.77 10.6 11.6 11.4 5.4%
    UCI 3.63 9.3 10.9 10.8 6.3%

    i think these were from '02. There doesnt appear to be any discrep. btw each school's stats and its respective ranking.

    anyways, the fact that 800/4000 applicants stayed in-state isnt a terribly discouraging figure.

    btw, whats the average debt for cali med students?
     
  26. If you are so intent on staying in the Golden State, why are you still debating whether or not you want to do the Drew program? Its an amazing program, I just didn't have 50 dollars more for the secondary... I think you should do it though.
     
  27. LoneCoyote

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    This is such a common theme among California applicants I have met. I feel I got really lucky that I got in with a 29 MCAT (8 in PS). But I must say the advisor said to me "the rest of your application is very strong. In any other state you would not have to worry too much about getting into a state school, but since you are from California it is going to be much more difficult and may just come down to luck." I am very happy with my UC acceptance but it was not cool that I did have to stress so much with what was a pretty strong application overall. Maybe it is telling that I got 2 interviews to out-of-state public schools that don't accept that many out-of-staters before I got my UC interviews.
     
  28. celticmists18

    celticmists18 california dreaming
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    when looking at those figures you might want to keep in mind that there are a percentage of CA applicants that don't even bother applying to state schools. Considering how many spots californians seem to take up at out of state schools it is hard for me to believe that there are only 4,000 of them.
     
  29. ave debt for ucsd is like 70K i think, way lower than the national average.
     
  30. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    You're right, its not too discouraging, if you find 20% not discouraging. But personally, I just know that CA is one of the last states I want to be a resident of if I was applying though.

    In re: the debt. It was pretty low, but now that avg tuitions are up near 25k, debt is probably going to be very close the the national avg of 120k
     
  31. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    Is drew mostly committed to serving the underprivileged?
     
  32. LoneCoyote

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    I predict that will rise with the large tuition hikes. $70,000 seems about right when people paid $10,000-15,000 their four years in med school. Now with tuition closer to $22,000-25,000 I think it will go up a lot.
     
  33. Yep, its great. And the class is uber-diverse even though its small so exmike is uber-lucky to get in as a non-URM.
     
  34. Unless school grants cover some of the difference for needy students.
     
  35. Goober

    Goober Senior Member
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    Yet more anecdotal evidence back when I applied-

    17 interview offers out of state when I applied including 2 top 15 schools and 3 public non-cali schools.

    0 interviews in Cali.

    :mad:
     
  36. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    Drew does have an underserved focus.

    I'm not that focused on staying in CA. I would like it of course, as would most CA applicants. I dont remember when I ever said I was intent on staying in CA. I've just had advisors and what not tell me to avoid it, esp if I want to go to a top specialty residency in the future. I am definitely still considering it, just not sure what to do at this point.
     
  37. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    i agree that im "uber" lucky to get the opportunity as an non URM. I do have pretty extensive public health experience, i think thats what helped me - it was consisten with their mission.
     
  38. When you said "ca is one of my last choices to be a resident of" it sounds like you want to go to a public school ?

    Point is, if people don't want to be in CA (ie, me) why are they bitchin'
     
  39. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    I think you're misreading my posts.

    My point was that if I had no ties to any state and was given the option of choosing a state residency for applying to medical school, CA would be one of my last choices because being a resident of a large number of other states would give me a better shot at getting in (to a state school in particular).

    I dont have the option of that since I'm a CA resident and I grew up in CA, and of course I would love to go to school in CA and practice in CA. Of course, the school has to also be consistent with my professional goals, so I have to consider how important it is for me to be in CA.
     
  40. No, that's how I read the post. So you're not interested in working with the underserved as your primary goal then?
     
  41. LoneCoyote

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    I think that will happen. But I also think the average debt load will increase since many med school applicants are from middle/upper middle/upper class families who do not qualify for need-based grants when the parental income is considered. They've essentially doubled the tuition so it seems like it will have to go up overall, esp. since the schools are losing funding from the state.
     
  42. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    it seems clear. your advisors are right, if drew has an underserved focus and and your interest is in a top specialty, wheres the fit? to me, underserved ~ primary care. is that a correct generalization? sure, the underserved need neurosurgeons and opths and they go to academic hospitals for treatment. i dont know if any top specialists work strictly for the underserved.

    knowing drews focus, would they have an issue with you gunning for a top specialty?
     
  43. That makes sense. The average will increase overall. I'm kicking myself for working full time and having a 35K income. That sucks, but at least UCSD is going to take into consideration that I won't have the actual income next year. And luckily, parent income is still well below 30K.
     
  44. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    You said you didnt understand why CA people who dont want to stay in CA bitch about how hard it is to stay in CA. I DO want to stay in CA. But thats not my only consideration in choosing a medical school.

    Yes, I want to work with underserved groups. But I also want the option of pursuing a quality residency. People I have spoke to have told me that going to Drew may affect my ability to enter a top residency training program. We all know you dont have to go do Drew to work with the underserved, so at this point I'm trying to reconcile my personal goals (using my MPH with my MD to positively influence community health) with my professional goals (to obtain the best medical education and residency training possible).
     
  45. I think you are right. If exmike wants ophthal or radiology, etc. it wouldn't make sense to go to Drew.

    However, once you transfer to UCLA and do your rotations they probably won't care what you do.
     
  46. courtyard

    courtyard Member
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    I think there are two factors that we need to keep in mind when we consider UC medical schools.

    As others have stated on previous posts, California state schools are not like most state-schools. They are definitely top caliber schools in the country, which is why it is hard to get into.

    Secondly, geography is another factor that makes California schools even more competitive. I have met many people in and out of California, who wants to live and practice in California.

    I think that these factors affect different groups of people in different ways. On one hand, I feel for the Californian applicants with sub-UC average numbers, etc, complaining that they can't rely on state schools as a back-up, a luxury many other state applicants have.

    On the other hand, those Californians with competitive qualification have chance to get an excellent education that these top-notch state schools have to offer, and stay in the state and very likely practice and live in this popular state.
     
  47. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    Typically less than half of drews students go into primary care, and I dont see why they would care if their students wanted to specialize. King/Drew offers the full range of specialty training programs anyway.

    Top specialty and Top residency are different. If i go into primary care, I still want to get into a top program.
     
  48. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    would going to case somehow discourage you from working with the underserved? if not, sounds like going to case would align with your personal and professional goals.

    would going to drew make it difficult for you to obtain a top residency? if so, sounds like its not aligned with your interests. i would be interested in knowing why drew students dont typically secure top residencies.
     
  49. If you want a top program in primary care I would think Drew/UCLA would be the obvious choice (versus Case).
     
  50. jhk43

    jhk43 Senior Member
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    I think a succinct summary is:

    its hard for a cali person to stay instate, but its damn near impossible for an out of state person to attend any cali school.
     
  51. Wait I'm totally confused now, as a Drew/UCLA student do you do your second two years at Drew or the first two years?

    I think I had it backwards in my mind.

    Maybe Case is the better choice.
     

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