Is USA worth it?

[FelixFelicius]

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Hey guy,

I posted this in another forum and was asked to post it here, I am a medical student in australia, and have been considering a career in the US for the past few months. I've been looking up all the extrance exams and stuff and feel that with some study i should be able to pass them, but the thing thats on my mind is, is the US worth it? The main attraction that US has is that it has some of the worlds best hospitals and doctors, while aus is excellent as well, the US more regarded. But from what i've been told, the doctors get crappy salaries over there, compared to interns over here, who easily endup making > $75,000 in their first year out of med school. and the pay only gets better. Whats the pay like of residents in the US? And when does it start to get umm...'respectable'...?

Cheers

 

[Blade28]

In general, interns (residents in their first year) make around $37k - $44k, depending on location. The salary tends to go up around $2.5k every year after that, including fellowship. Incomes for when you're an attending vary depending on location and specialty - if you do a thread search you'll find lots of discussions on "average" incomes.

How many hours per week do Australian residents work?

What field are you looking to enter? Bear in mind that for many residency types, merely passing the USMLE exams is not sufficient - you want to do as well as possible in them!

 

[FelixFelicius]

In general, interns (residents in their first year) make around $37k - $44k, depending on location. The salary tends to go up around $2.5k every year after that, including fellowship. Incomes for when you're an attending vary depending on location and specialty - if you do a thread search you'll find lots of discussions on "average" incomes.

How many hours per week do Australian residents work?

What field are you looking to enter? Bear in mind that for many residency types, merely passing the USMLE exams is not sufficient - you want to do as well as possible in them!

Thanks for the reply Blade28. Umm on average the interns put in about 70-80 hour weeks, quite a few work a lot more. In terms of specialty, i was thinking of plastic surgery, though of late neurosurgery has also been popping up in my mind. How much would these specialties make in US? i know a couple of plastic surgeons here in aus, all of whom make over a mil a year. Not too sure about the neuros

Cheers mate

 

[Blade28]

Know that if you're looking to match into a Plastics or Neurosurgery residency, those are among the most competitive (and therefore toughest to get into) in all of surgery - so you DEFINITELY have to do well on the USMLE exams! 🙂 Even for US med students it's a tough match, and in addition to great Step scores, competitive candidates usually have outstanding grades, strong letters of recommendation from well-known US faculty and often research as well.

The current rules state that residents may work no more than 80-88 hours/week (averaged over four weeks), with an average of one day off every week; the maximum number of consecutive hours worked should be 30. Of course there are exceptions and some residents will work more, some less; in general, though, almost all the surgical fields are very close to the 80-hour workweek limit (if not over it).

From http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6634471#post6634471 :

Umm i am interested in Internal Medicine.

Are you still interested in IM? This is significantly less competitive for non-US med students, BTW.

 

[FelixFelicius]

Know that if you're looking to match into a Plastics or Neurosurgery residency, those are among the most competitive (and therefore toughest to get into) in all of surgery - so you DEFINITELY have to do well on the USMLE exams! 🙂 Even for US med students it's a tough match, and in addition to great Step scores, competitive candidates usually have outstanding grades, strong letters of recommendation from well-known US faculty and often research as well.

The current rules state that residents may work no more than 80-88 hours/week (averaged over four weeks), with an average of one day off every week; the maximum number of consecutive hours worked should be 30. Of course there are exceptions and some residents will work more, some less; in general, though, almost all the surgical fields are very close to the 80-hour workweek limit (if not over it).

From http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6634471#post6634471 :



Are you still interested in IM? This is significantly less competitive for non-US med students, BTW.

Not too worried about the strong grades bit, just the letters of recommendation from US faculty members, cos i dont know any! And no i'm not interested in IM, that is only for my elective cos i thought it would give me a better chance to see what US hospitals are like more than something specialised like plastic or neurosurgery. But i think i might have to change my elective to a more neuro/plastic surgery focused one, so that i can get in touch with some US surgeons and hopefully get a letter of recommendation from them.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

But i think i might have to change my elective to a more neuro/plastic surgery focused one, so that i can get in touch with some US surgeons and hopefully get a letter of recommendation from them.

If that is what you're aiming for then yes, I think this would be in your best interest. 👍

 

[Marsupilami]

Thanks for the reply Blade28. Umm on average the interns put in about 70-80 hour weeks, quite a few work a lot more. In terms of specialty, i was thinking of plastic surgery, though of late neurosurgery has also been popping up in my mind. How much would these specialties make in US? i know a couple of plastic surgeons here in aus, all of whom make over a mil a year. Not too sure about the neuros

Cheers mate

70-80 hours ?! Jesus...how many hours do residents and registrars in Oz put in on average ?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

70-80 hours ?! Jesus...how many hours do residents and registrars in Oz put in on average ?

Residents/registrars in Australia and New Zealand work about the same number of hours as they do in the states.. the only difference is their pay is based off of a 60-70hr work week. This is not a "limit" as it is in the States. If Aus/NZ trainees work over this amount... and also when they are on call.. they simply "earn more". (...like time and a half).

Soo.. for example: a gen surg resident in Aus might make 60kAUD/year on a 60-70hr work week, but then when they take call or go over (80-90hrs/wk) the hospital might end up paying them (GME funding) 80-90k/year. Also, after they complete their intern year and obtain a full state medical license.. you are then allowed to moonlight if you have time. Rural locums jobs in Australia pay VERY well. If you also locum.. some residents might end up with 100+K per year.

Make sense?

Also, specialty training programs (residencies) in Australia ... just like Canada are on average 1-2 years longer than in the states. ... but you are provided a better lifestyle during your training years. 👍

 

[Marsupilami]

Dr. Millisevert,

thank your for the info. I must admit I always thought Australian docs would work less hours than their American colleagues. This would have been a strong reason for me to do my postgraduate training in Australia.

 

[Kubed]

Man, after reading this thread I'm starting to wonder if Australia is worth it?

 

[Blade28]

Not too worried about the strong grades bit, just the letters of recommendation from US faculty members, cos i dont know any!

As an IMG, the most important things are your USMLE scores, US letters of recommendation and US clinical experience. Unfortunately your med school grades won't count for much.

 

[DrDre311]

Thanks for the reply Blade28. Umm on average the interns put in about 70-80 hour weeks, quite a few work a lot more. In terms of specialty, i was thinking of plastic surgery, though of late neurosurgery has also been popping up in my mind. How much would these specialties make in US? i know a couple of plastic surgeons here in aus, all of whom make over a mil a year. Not too sure about the neuros

Cheers mate

As a foreign medical grad your chances of matching into integrated plastic surgery are not good. There are ~90 spots, it's the toughest match in medicine for U.S. allopathic seniors as well, and only 4-5 IMG/FMG types match into integrated plastics each year (usually folks with some serious connections/research output/worked in the lab where they match for a couple of years).

If you are considering plastic surgery as a career then you should also apply broadly to general surgery programs.

 

[Blade28]

If you are considering plastic surgery as a career then you should also apply broadly to general surgery programs.

👍 Totally agree.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Man, after reading this thread I'm starting to wonder if Australia is worth it?

How does making more money for the same number of hours make Aus not seem like a good option? 😕

 

[medicinesux]

The fact that a thread with this title has even sprung up should serve as an alarm for the pitiful course that medicine is heading in this country. We are in the mere dawn of the unraveling that lies before us.

 

[buckley]

"Is USA worth it?"

Believe me, as somebody about to pack her bags and move to a different climate, I have asked this question a lot of times. I found my answer in the words of a very wise friend, "Make it worth it."

Each decision we make has a set of pro's and cons, different for each individual and for each moment in time. I find that the difficulty with making a decision is not the choice that you make, but the other choices you have to give up. One life to live...

Why don't you do a few rotations here in the US and see for yourself?

Good luck!

 

[Blade28]

I find that the difficulty with making a decision is not the choice that you make, but the other choices you have to give up. One life to live...

Ah, it's our old dear friend opportunity cost.

 

[buckley]

I hate economics 😀 How in the world can you find joy when all you think about is scarcity? Alas...alas...I find much more joy in pathology...hahaha!

 

[Blade28]

I hate economics 😀 How in the world can you find joy when all you think about is scarcity? Alas...alas...I find much more joy in pathology...hahaha!

I find joy in operating. 🙂

 

[Llenroc]

The folksy country doctors here will tell you that if you can dream it you can do it, but I'll give you the no bull**** urban doctor version: as a foreign medical graduate, you will not get either plastic surgery or neurosurgery in the U.S., unless you happen to be the absolute, most brilliant applicant from your country, with a whole host of 99th percentile board scores, stunning evaluations, published research, and real work experience to back it up.

 

[Geri_Gal]

Thanks for the reply Blade28. Umm on average the interns put in about 70-80 hour weeks, quite a few work a lot more. In terms of specialty, i was thinking of plastic surgery, though of late neurosurgery has also been popping up in my mind. How much would these specialties make in US? i know a couple of plastic surgeons here in aus, all of whom make over a mil a year. Not too sure about the neuros

Cheers mate

With the falling U.S. dollar, stay in Oz and vacation to the U.S. You'll find it easier to get a neurosurg or plastics fellowship and will make bank if that is what you are after. Fellowships in plastics and neurosurg at the "best" U.S. training programs are difficult for U.S. grads let alone FMGs. Your medical training system of compensation sounds awesome. I'd love to be paid commensurate with the hours I work.

 

[FelixFelicius]

thanks for all the replies guys!

 

[MedStar]

In Australia, the average work week for an intern/resident (RMO) and registrar (Trainee) is 37.5 hrs/week based on 8 hr shifts with 1/2 hr for lunch being deducted. Pay is fortnightly (every 2 weeks) giving a pay period work hour load of 75 hrs. However many interns/RMO's/Registrars end up working more hours per week. Some average about 50-55 hrs/week. Anything above this is highly suspect and most department heads will question it, unless on a very busy service like single resident to cover 40 patients.

Average starting intern salary is around 50k Aus for interns, for RMOs it is 53-55k, Registrars it is 75-80k and upto 100k if advanced trainee/senior Reg.

So with overtime, an intern can earn about 70-75k in the year, and some RMOs can earn upto 75-80k per year.

Keep in mind Australian residencies/hospital spots pay OVERTIME.
For example an RMO or JHO (juniour house officer (pgy2)) will be paid around $32/hr for average week stated above, and everything else is paid overtime with rates of $48/hr upto $64/hr depending on day and how much overtime down. If over 12 hr shift you automatically get paid at $64/hr.

Also if after doing iternship you are sick of training program or hospitalist job you can locum for rates of $60-$100/hr.

Hope this clarifies the true nature of working in Aus.
In summary residents make way more money than in America.
You could come here and work heaps of overtime, and pay off your debts for US med schools.👍
Just need to get cheap housing, maybe a roomate or two.

 

[Marsupilami]

In Australia, the average work week for an intern/resident (RMO) and registrar (Trainee) is 37.5 hrs/week based on 8 hr shifts with 1/2 hr for lunch being deducted. Pay is fortnightly (every 2 weeks) giving a pay period work hour load of 75 hrs. However many interns/RMO's/Registrars end up working more hours per week. Some average about 50-55 hrs/week. Anything above this is highly suspect and most department heads will question it, unless on a very busy service like single resident to cover 40 patients.

Average starting intern salary is around 50k Aus for interns, for RMOs it is 53-55k, Registrars it is 75-80k and upto 100k if advanced trainee/senior Reg.

So with overtime, an intern can earn about 70-75k in the year, and some RMOs can earn upto 75-80k per year.

Keep in mind Australian residencies/hospital spots pay OVERTIME.
For example an RMO or JHO (juniour house officer (pgy2)) will be paid around $32/hr for average week stated above, and everything else is paid overtime with rates of $48/hr upto $64/hr depending on day and how much overtime down. If over 12 hr shift you automatically get paid at $64/hr.

Also if after doing iternship you are sick of training program or hospitalist job you can locum for rates of $60-$100/hr.

Hope this clarifies the true nature of working in Aus.
In summary residents make way more money than in America.
You could come here and work heaps of overtime, and pay off your debts for US med schools.👍
Just need to get cheap housing, maybe a roomate or two.

Thanks for giving us some insight into the salaries in Australia 👍

One thing that worries is the seemingly complicated postgraduate education in Down Under...after internship and residency, you become a registrar...and I have heard of people working for years in those kind of jobs without ever getting into their specialist training. If you wanted to become a Neurologist e.g., you would have to do internal medicine for years...not just this one year of internship like in the US. In general, "residency" ( in the American sense) seems to be MUCH longer in Down Under than in the US. I'd be happy if someone more familiar with the Australian system could post further info on this.

 

[BabyPsychDoc]

Hey guy,

I posted this in another forum and was asked to post it here, I am a medical student in australia, and have been considering a career in the US for the past few months. I've been looking up all the extrance exams and stuff and feel that with some study i should be able to pass them, but the thing thats on my mind is, is the US worth it? The main attraction that US has is that it has some of the worlds best hospitals and doctors, while aus is excellent as well, the US more regarded. But from what i've been told, the doctors get crappy salaries over there, compared to interns over here, who easily endup making > $75,000 in their first year out of med school. and the pay only gets better. Whats the pay like of residents in the US? And when does it start to get umm...'respectable'...?

Cheers

As buckley said above, the answer to your question is going to depend on many variables - some of which you do not even seem to consider at present.

1) What do you want to get out of the US? Educational aspect of residency? Opportunity to stay and practice medicine in the country after the residency? Lifestyle?
2) Where do you see yourself in a few years time? Again, do you want to stay in the US and make your base there? Or, do you want to come back to Australia? How training in the US is going to fit in with your overall career plans?
3) Friends and family. VERY important. Do you have anyone in the US? How are you going to manage long-distance relationships with people in Australia when you are on a different continent in a different hemisphere? What will you do if your family member becomes unwell - it is not like you can catch the next train to visit them with no notice? How are you going to manage being homesick?

Ultimately, nobody can answer your question for you. You need to weigh all pros and cons of the move (not just the financial ones!), and decide for yourself.

Good luck.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Thanks for giving us some insight into the salaries in Australia 👍

One thing that worries is the seemingly complicated postgraduate education in Down Under...after internship and residency, you become a registrar...and I have heard of people working for years in those kind of jobs without ever getting into their specialist training. If you wanted to become a Neurologist e.g., you would have to do internal medicine for years...not just this one year of internship like in the US. In general, "residency" ( in the American sense) seems to be MUCH longer in Down Under than in the US. I'd be happy if someone more familiar with the Australian system could post further info on this.

Specialty training in Australia and New Zealand is overseen by the specialty colleges.

Surgery: the Royal Australasian college of surgeons, www.surgeons.org

IM: Royal Australasian college of Physicians, http://www.racp.edu.au

Optho, Obgyn, and FP have their own specialty boards, etc.

All medical graduates in these countries are required to do at least 1 year of internship in order to obtain a full medical license. (Same as in the US really, except as of 15 or so years ago.. most US programs just amalgamated the "internship" year into the first year of their specialty programs.) (DO graduates in the US also are required to do a seperate 1 year internship I believe)

You are allowed to apply to most specialties these days in Australia after 1 year.. (gen surg is 5-years, ENT is 5-years, etc so plus the intern yr...usually ends up being 6-7yrs) again, not that drastically different than the US. Residency training programs in Canada are also on average 1-2 years longer than US programs similar to Australia and are overseen by the Royal Canadian College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Some medical graduates in Australia and New Zealand do linger in the system longer.. this can be for a number of reasons.. 1. They don't know what they want to do. 2. They aren't competative enough for the more competative training programs and instead of giving up and doing a program less competative.. they stick it out a few more years as a non-selected "resident" and prove themselves in order to get accepted to something they really want. 3. After finishing their internship and obtaining their medical license, some people simply choose to take time off from training to travel and do locums work around the country or overseas.. (locums work in Australia usually pays VERY WELL!! ie. 200-350k USD/yr if full time) Also, take into consideration that many local Australian medical graduates have very little if any debt.... AND even during your training as a resident/registrar.. you make 2-3 times what you make as a US resident.

Hope this helps clearify the situation!

 

[buckley]

As buckley said above, the answer to your question is going to depend on many variables - some of which you do not even seem to consider at present.

1) What do you want to get out of the US? Educational aspect of residency? Opportunity to stay and practice medicine in the country after the residency? Lifestyle?
2) Where do you see yourself in a few years time? Again, do you want to stay in the US and make your base there? Or, do you want to come back to Australia? How training in the US is going to fit in with your overall career plans?
3) Friends and family. VERY important. Do you have anyone in the US? How are you going to manage long-distance relationships with people in Australia when you are on a different continent in a different hemisphere? What will you do if your family member becomes unwell - it is not like you can catch the next train to visit them with no notice? How are you going to manage being homesick?

Ultimately, nobody can answer your question for you. You need to weigh all pros and cons of the move (not just the financial ones!), and decide for yourself.

For my case...
1. Educational aspect of residency. Maybe a change in the environment, an adventure.
2. I honestly have no idea but I figure that a US residency would be an asset wherever I go.
3.THIS is the hardest part. Saying "so long" still feels very much like "good bye"....

Do I regret my decision? Of course not. Do I think it's worth it? I have to say yes...Just because I tried it out and I am trying it out.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

1) What do you want to get out of the US? Educational aspect of residency? Opportunity to stay and practice medicine in the country after the residency? Lifestyle?

For my case...
1. Educational aspect of residency. Maybe a change in the environment, an adventure.

Many medical graduates from Australia and New Zealand used to go to the UK/London to complete part of their residency training or fellowship for these same reasons (change of environment, adventure, etc). However... the UK is changing their education and licensure agreements to fall more in line with a EU model (since 2001).. and Australia is moving more towards the US/Canadian model (graduate entry medical school.. SET model of surgery training.. etc). Because of this.. I think you'll find that a lot more of the medical graduates from here still want an overseas experience and will want to complete a subspecialty fellowship or residency in Canada or the US now and in the future. (Instead of London.. it will be NYC, LA, or Toronto, etc). However, long term.. I think lifestyle and salary will bring most Aussies back home. 👍

If the US dollar continues to plummet.. you may find more and more US docs wanting to migrate to Aus.

 

[Marsupilami]

Specialty training in Australia and New Zealand is overseen by the specialty colleges.

Surgery: the Royal Australasian college of surgeons, www.surgeons.org

IM: Royal Australasian college of Physicians, http://www.racp.edu.au

Optho, Obgyn, and FP have their own specialty boards, etc.

All medical graduates in these countries are required to do at least 1 year of internship in order to obtain a full medical license. (Same as in the US really, except as of 15 or so years ago.. most US programs just amalgamated the "internship" year into the first year of their specialty programs.) (DO graduates in the US also are required to do a seperate 1 year internship I believe)

You are allowed to apply to most specialties these days in Australia after 1 year.. (gen surg is 5-years, ENT is 5-years, etc so plus the intern yr...usually ends up being 6-7yrs) again, not that drastically different than the US. Residency training programs in Canada are also on average 1-2 years longer than US programs similar to Australia and are overseen by the Royal Canadian College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Some medical graduates in Australia and New Zealand do linger in the system longer.. this can be for a number of reasons.. 1. They don't know what they want to do. 2. They aren't competative enough for the more competative training programs and instead of giving up and doing a program less competative.. they stick it out a few more years as a non-selected "resident" and prove themselves in order to get accepted to something they really want. 3. After finishing their internship and obtaining their medical license, some people simply choose to take time off from training to travel and do locums work around the country or overseas.. (locums work in Australia usually pays VERY WELL!! ie. 200-350k USD/yr if full time) Also, take into consideration that many local Australian medical graduates have very little if any debt.... AND even during your training as a resident/registrar.. you make 2-3 times what you make as a US resident.

Hope this helps clearify the situation!

Thank you for this very informative post. I wonder how IMG applicants are doing in the Australian system. It's probably not easy for an IMG to get into certain fields like Radiology or Gas. In the US, it isn't easy either, but I think with excellent scores, good LORs and perhaps research experience, there is certainly a chance. It would be interesting to know how fair and transparent the application process in Aus is.

 

[rox]

Dr.Millisevert, What does it take for an Oversees Trained Doctor(as they call them) to get into the australian medical system? I know AMC exams as first step. What would be the next steps? Thanks!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Dr.Millisevert, What does it take for an Oversees Trained Doctor(as they call them) to get into the australian medical system? I know AMC exams as first step. What would be the next steps? Thanks!

You are correct that the first step would be to complete the AMC exams.

The next step would be to decide which training program you're interested in and then contact the relavant specialty college that oversees that training program.

Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists
Anesthesiology

Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists, faculty of Pain Medicine
Pain Medicine

Australasian College of Dermatologists
Dermatology

Australasian College for Emergency Medicine
Emergency Medicine

Royal Australian College of General Practitioners
Family Practice

Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Internal Medicine
General Medicine
Cardiology
Haematology
Immunology and Allergy
Clinical Pharmacology
Endocrinology
Gastroenterology and Hepatology
Geriatric Medicine
Infectious Diseases
Medical Oncology
Neurology
Nuclear Medicine
Nephrology
Rheumatology
Clinical Genetics
Sleep Medicine
Palliative Medicine
Thoracic Medicine

Paediatrics and Child Health Division, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Community Child Health
Neonatology and Perinatology
Paediatric Subspecialties (as for Internal Medicine)
Paediatric Emergency Medicine
Paediatric Rehabilitation Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists
Gynaecological Oncology
Maternal Fetal Medicine
Obstetrics and Gynaecology
Obstetric and Gynaecological Ultrasound
Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility
Urogynaecology

Australasian Faculty of Occupational Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Occupational Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Ophthalmologists
Fundamentals of ophthalmic practice
Cataract
Clinical Refraction
Cornea and External Eye Disease
Glaucoma
Neuro-Ophthalmology
Ocular Inflammation
Ocular Motility
Oculoplastics
Paediatrics
Refractve Surgery
Vitreo-Retinal

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Dental Surgeons
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

Royal Australasian College of Medical Administrators
Medical Administration

Australasian Chapter of Palliative Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Palliative Medicine

Royal College of Pathologists of Australasia
General Pathology
Anatomical Pathology
Chemical Pathology
Haematology
Immunology
Microbiology
Oral Pathology
Forensic Pathology
Genetics

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists
Psychiatry

Australasian Faculty of Public Health Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Public Health Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Radiologists
Diagnostic Radiology
Radiation Oncology

Australasian Faculty of Rehabilitation Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Rehabilitation Medicine

Royal Australasian College of Surgeons
General Surgery
Cardiothoracic Surgery
Neurosurgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Otolaryngology head and neck surgery
Paediatric Surgery
Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
Urology
Vascular Surgery


Once you have contacted the college of your choice. They should be able to inform you what their requirements would be for you to become certified in that specialty. For example if you are a fresh medical graduate you "may" be required to complete a year of internship first before applying for a registrar(residency) position. If however, you are already a board certified by a specialty board in the USA or current Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, etc. Then you may only be required to complete 1-2 years of fellowship in order to become certified locally. 👍

 

[dilated]

Then you may only be required to complete 1-2 years of fellowship in order to become certified locally. 👍

Is there a specific "foreigner fellowship" or can you do anything? Like if you were going to do a microsurgery fellowship after residency, could you do it in Aus and get certified there + have a fellowship to your name? Or is it some kind of general internship type thing?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Is there a specific "foreigner fellowship" or can you do anything? Like if you were going to do a microsurgery fellowship after residency, could you do it in Aus and get certified there + have a fellowship to your name? Or is it some kind of general internship type thing?

Possibly, I'm not sure of the details. If you're interested.. just contact the college of surgeons.

 

[Kubed]

How does making more money for the same number of hours make Aus not seem like a good option? 😕

No no, that was just it. You guys are making a hell of an argument for shipping down under for GME.

 

[Winged Scapula]

No no, that was just it. You guys are making a hell of an argument for shipping down under for GME.

Only if you are planning on staying there. While Oz is more understanding of training done abroad, the same is not true for the US. At this point in time, if you do your residency in Oz (provided you could even get a position), expect to repeat nearly all or all of your training in the US if you want to work here.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Only if you are planning on staying there. While Oz is more understanding of training done abroad, the same is not true for the US. At this point in time, if you do your residency in Oz (provided you could even get a position), expect to repeat nearly all or all of your training in the US if you want to work here.

Hopefully they will consider developing an agreement with the Australian medical council and the Australian specialty colleges similar to the ones with the Canadian medical association and their specialty colleges. Seems like a pretty good deal to me... the quality of the programs are the same and the Australian physicians seem to be doing better financially than in Canada and even in the US these days... and plus Australia has nicer weather and beaches. 🙂

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

While Oz is more understanding of training done abroad, the same is not true for the US.

At the moment, generally that is true. However, it depends on what you're applying for. I've heard of some Australian graduates who have completed general surgery in Australia and have then completed their cardiothoracic fellowship in the US and are US board certified and fully licensed. So, although they did have to complete some years (ACGME fellowship), they didnt' have to redo their general surgery years.

 

[Winged Scapula]

At the moment, generally that is true. However, it depends on what you're applying for. I've heard of some Australian graduates who have completed general surgery in Australia and have then completed their cardiothoracic fellowship in the US and are US board certified and fully licensed. So, although they did have to complete some years (ACGME fellowship), they didnt' have to redo their general surgery years.

Its not that its impossible, but it is true that you cannot be BC in general surgery without having completed an ACGME or DO program in the US, except in very limited cases. Doing a fellowship is one way around that, provided the fellowship has a board, as Thoracic Surgery does.

There are always anecdotes and yes, things may change but for the most part, people who train abroad are going to find difficulty in getting into a US fellowship without having done US residency training. Most fellowships will require US BE; with the downfall of CT Surgery popularity in the last few years, its not suprising that they would be more lenient in who they take. Finally, getting a license is a totally separate issue and is not dependent on where you have trained.

 

[sjkpark]

You are allowed to apply to most specialties these days in Australia after 1 year.. (gen surg is 5-years, ENT is 5-years, etc so plus the intern yr...usually ends up being 6-7yrs) again, not that drastically different than the US. Residency training programs in Canada are also on average 1-2 years longer than US programs similar to Australia and are overseen by the Royal Canadian College of Physicians and Surgeons.

Some medical graduates in Australia and New Zealand do linger in the system longer.. this can be for a number of reasons.. 1. They don't know what they want to do. 2. They aren't competative enough for the more competative training programs and instead of giving up and doing a program less competative.. they stick it out a few more years as a non-selected "resident" and prove themselves in order to get accepted to something they really want. 3. After finishing their internship and obtaining their medical license, some people simply choose to take time off from training to travel and do locums work around the country or overseas.. (locums work in Australia usually pays VERY WELL!! ie. 200-350k USD/yr if full time) Also, take into consideration that many local Australian medical graduates have very little if any debt.... AND even during your training as a resident/registrar.. you make 2-3 times what you make as a US resident.

Hope this helps clearify the situation!

Just because you are eligible to apply for specialist training after 1 year does not mean that you will get in. (e.g. SET) I don't know anybody who got into plastics or orthopaedics or urology as PGY-2. Neurosurgery is an exception as it is not too hard to get into training programme here. Your post implies that all those hard-working non-training RMO's waiting for their training positions are somehow not well-qualified. You could be first in your class, a medallist and still be doomed to years of non-training RMO jobs. It is almost a requirement to spend a few years as a non-training RMO and research fellow, especially in the most competitive surgical specialties. The most competitive candidates are the ones who stuck out for the longest time - believe me they are not dumb.

 

[Blade28]

There are always anecdotes and yes, things may change but for the most part, people who train abroad are going to find difficulty in getting into a US fellowship without having done US residency training. Most fellowships will require US BE...

Very true, and bears repeating. The vast majority of residency-trained physicians from abroad have to repeat their residency if they want to practice in the US.

 

[rox]

The next step would be to decide which training program you're interested in and then contact the relavant specialty college that oversees that training program.

So I believe moving from an intern into a registrar is the big step. Generally speaking, how hard is it to find a position as an intern in you prefered specialty?

 

[mindr93166]

As a FMG, I cannot help but wonder- is it? Even as an attending, making money, I am contemplating going back to do a fellowship or leaving.... The health system is just getting more difficult to battle every day.