Is wanting a Muslim OMM group a valid reason to not want to change your group?

[mwsapphire]

Hello,
So my school is allowing us to choose our OMM/Anatomy Lab/DPR group due to COVID. I chose a group of mainly Muslim students. ( It's one group for all activities to limit total contacts because of COVID)

Now they are telling us that some of the groups of 8 will be reduced because the groups were supposed to be closer to 6-7 people. . They said that if we have a valid reason we can ask to not have our group split. I was in a group of 8.

I know I want to stay in a "Monday" group because due to the hybrid model and COVID, I want to be able to go home frequently , and having labs on Monday makes that easier logistically. My school doesn't have too many out of staters ( about 2/3 to 3/4 of the class is in state) so this special request should make sense.

But, I also want a group of Muslim students because I feel like OMM would be easier with Muslim students. Whether it's dressing w different dress code ( I'm not wearing shorts and tank tops....) or wanting to be touched by a female classmate when it is possible, are easier with a group of Muslim students.

Does it make sense to include both points in my email? We have until tomorrow afternoon at request a "no-change".

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[Sky138]

I would because what’s the worst thing they can do, say no?

 

[deleted1064759]

I'd ask but it would also be a reduction in the diversity of other groups if there's only a groups worth of Muslims in the class.

I think you have very fair points though.

 

[RTC19]

I think your concerns are very valid and it's certainly worth it to ask.

 

[Goro]

I would because what’s the worst thing they can do, say no?

I agree.

But I'd like to point out that you're going to have to get along with people of different creeds, colors, nationalities, etc, so getting into a mixed up group might be a good thing for you.

 

[dial1010usa]

Once you become DR I hope you will see other color/race patients male/female and you gonna check them and touch them. That being said you should get into different groups. It might be not your comfort zone but I'm telling you from my own experience. I'm an OMS III and it took me a while to get adjusted.
I'm sorry if I offended you but you can always ask the school and all they can say no.

 

[mwsapphire]

Once you become DR I hope you will see other color/race patients male/female and you gonna check them and touch them. That being said you should get into different groups. It might be not your comfort zone but I'm telling you from my own experience. I'm an OMS III and it took me a while to get adjusted.
I'm sorry if I offended you but you can always ask the school and all they can say no.

Ya, I ended up just requesting a mostly female group to make things easier. I could be in a mixed group, but my first semester with OMM and having to change the dress code ( my school has us wear shorts and tanks) I'd be more comfy with mostly women.
It's like, I wanted to learn OMM, but now realizing I'll have to be touched and wear revealing clothes is like...aaahhhhh. I'm already asking for different clothes and I just wanna start off w a mostly female group.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It will be good to be on a mixed group. You might be surprised what you learn when you are part of one. Eventually as a physician, you must interact and examine, i.e., touch a variety of patients without regard to race, religion, politics, or sexual orientation. Every new med student feels very similiar about leaving their comfort zone. It will all work out. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[dial1010usa]

Ya, I ended up just requesting a mostly female group to make things easier. I could be in a mixed group, but my first semester with OMM and having to change the dress code ( my school has us wear shorts and tanks) I'd be more comfy with mostly women.
It's like, I wanted to learn OMM, but now realizing I'll have to be touched and wear revealing clothes is like...aaahhhhh. I'm already asking for different clothes and I just wanna start off w a mostly female group.

I'm so proud of you that you made the right decision. You will feel awkward at first but you will be fine. This is the part of your DO journey.
All the best!!!

 

[8YearsLate]

You are definitely entitled to speak up about who touches your body if you're still adjusting to that aspect of the curriculum, however, perhaps consider how you might feel if:

-A male classmate requested an all-male group because he did not want women touching him
-A Christian classmate requested an all-Christian group

For that reason, I would ask for a dress code modification to accommodate your comfort and religion before requesting a segregated group. If they don't go for that, then I'd ask for all-female before I based it on religion.

At one hospital I work at, I requested the uniform the males were allowed to wear (nice comfortable polo and khakis) but the director told me "You can't, you have to wear the female uniform," (which is this hideous white suit and green vest modeled after the "candy-stripers" back when, very uncomfortable to me, and also....hi.....it's white....no fun for us XX's pre-menopause). I felt this was an incredibly sexist policy to enforce, especially considering its one of the nation's top-20 largest hospital systems.

I think they should, and will, give you some leeway in what you wear, if they have any cultural sensitivity at all.

Good luck with labs

 

[DO2015CA]

Men aren’t going to be trying to grope you. It’s OMM. No one wants to be there and they will be doing the bare minimum

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

Men aren’t going to be trying to grope you. It’s OMM. No one wants to be there and they will be doing the bare minimum

It seems like it's part of her culture more than the fear of being groped my men.
My 1st guess is that you're a man and may not fully understand her concerns but I could be wrong.

 

[DO2015CA]

It seems like it's part of her culture more than the fear of being groped my men.
My 1st guess is that you're a man and may not fully understand her concerns but I could be wrong.

What does my gender have to do with a cultural thing? If it’s cultural then that’s fine and my gender has nothing to do with it. And I was aware, I also come from a pretty heavy cultural background that I had to ignore for education. It can be done.

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

What does my gender have to do with a cultural thing? If it’s cultural then that’s fine and my gender has nothing to do with it. And I was aware, I also come from a pretty heavy cultural background that I had to ignore for education. It can be done.

Because a lot of people who tend to tell people to get over things or seemingly dismiss them tend to be from a more dominant group hence my assumption that you may not understand her need to feel more comfortable around people of her gender (she mentioned wanting to have female OMM group and your (indirect) response "men aren't trying to grope you").

 

[DO2015CA]

Because a lot of people who tend to tell people to get over things or seemingly dismiss them tend to be from a more dominant group hence my assumption that you may not understand her need to feel more comfortable around people of her gender (she mentioned wanting to have female OMM group and your (indirect) response "men aren't trying to grope you").

You need to figure out if this is a sex or culture issue. If it is culture, then you need to overcome that to still get your education. I had to do it. If it’s a gender issue then why is it an issue? If it’s fear for inappropriate touching then refer to my earlier post. You need to get comfortable examining the other gender. Unless you are OB, then your job will take care of both

 

[FutureInternist]

I agree.

But I'd like to point out that you're going to have to get along with people of different creeds, colors, nationalities, etc, so getting into a mixed up group might be a good thing for you.

Yup..... at some point you will HAVE to deal with people you are uncomfortable/unfamiliar with.

May as well get started on it with classmates who are all in the learning stage and hence things will be less awkward.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

With today's political climate, of course they'll bend over and say yes. If we were based on rationality, the answer should be a straight no. Medicine doesn't get to be partisan, and since you clearly have and wish to be in a bubble, you're the one I would push harder to be in the group with people unlike you so that you can grow as a person and be ready to touch and treat that patient that's antithetical to all you stand for

 

[hallowmann]

People on here a being a bit one- sided. You act like she won't be guaranteed to interact and treat primarily people outside of her religion all throughout med school and residency. This is a primarily white Christian country afterall. When people study medicine at Loma Linda, UIWSOM, or even an HBCU, is anyone really questioning how they will possibly learn to treat "others"? If they do, they shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with her seeking a little comfort with people of her gender or faith in one small aspect of her medical training.

Next you'll all say that the LDS students or desi students or Korean students hanging out together will limit their ability to properly learn medicine....

 

[caviarglow]

People on here a being a bit one- sided. You act like she won't be guaranteed to interact and treat primarily people outside of her religion all throughout med school and residency. This is a primarily white Christian country afterall. When people study medicine at Loma Linda, UIWSOM, or even an HBCU, is anyone really questioning how they will possibly learn to treat "others"? If they do, they shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with her seeking a little comfort with people of her gender or faith in one small aspect of her medical training.

Next you'll all say that the LDS students or desi students or Korean students hanging out together will limit their ability to properly learn medicine....

UIWSOM is not an all White Christian school. It is 13% African American, 28% Asian, 19% Hispanic, 1% Native American, and 38% White.

 

[hallowmann]

UIWSOM is not an all White Christian school. It is 13% African American, 28% Asian, 19% Hispanic, 1% Native American, and 38% White.

Where did I say it was "all" of anything? And by the way, with your stat, all you've proven is that it's not "all white" (again more or less a strawman). You're not really describing whether it's primarily Christian or not. The HBCUs aren't all white either, for what it's worth. The point I was making is that there's nothing wrong with a school attracting specific types of matriculants. It doesn't make them less medically trained.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

People on here a being a bit one- sided. You act like she won't be guaranteed to interact and treat primarily people outside of her religion all throughout med school and residency. This is a primarily white Christian country afterall. When people study medicine at Loma Linda, UIWSOM, or even an HBCU, is anyone really questioning how they will possibly learn to treat "others"? If they do, they shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with her seeking a little comfort with people of her gender or faith in one small aspect of her medical training.

Next you'll all say that the LDS students or desi students or Korean students hanging out together will limit their ability to properly learn medicine....

I'm normally in agreement with your posts. I don't think anyone is saying you cant learn medicine in a non diverse group. I was saying it might be good to step out of your comfort zone as leaving your comfort zone will be a common occurence in your early medical training. Doing your first H&P, delivery, abg, skin biopsy, PAP test, etc. Developing a little confidence will help in these situations as patients will key in on your lack of confidence and lose confidence in you.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm normally in agreement with your posts. I don't think anyone is saying you cant learn medicine in a non diverse group. I was saying it might be good to step out of your comfort zone as leaving your comfort zone will be a common occurence in your early medical training. Doing your first H&P, delivery, abg, skin biopsy, PAP test, etc. Developing a little confidence will help in these situations as patients will key in on your lack of confidence and lose confidence in you.

I agree and I don't explicitly have a problem with your point, but I think multiple people in this thread are acting like she has a problem she needs to fix. There's no point calling her out when the issue is her school even allowing people to break up into individually chosen groups anyway. Invariably everyone will match up with people they want to match up with for one reason or another. There's nothing wrong with her doing the same.

The even bigger issue I have with the way people have responded is that she was almost told it was her responsibility to be in other groups, because by having a Muslim group she was "reducing the diversity of other groups" (the 3rd post on the thread). Now if you were all suggesting that the school should just assign everyone randomly, that would be one thing, but it's not her job to be the martyr or token Muslim in a group so that "everyone" gets out of their comfort zone.

And to be completely honest, it's often not the minority students that grow up as the other that have the most trouble exiting their comfort zones. They literally do it on a daily basis.

I'm just gonna stop here, because it's not worth more time, but I needed to give a bit of perspective on this. She's not going to be a worse doctor because of this and it's not her responsibility to bring diversity to the school.

 

[Fidelio17]

You know, there's a big difference between *touching patients* & *being touched by your peers*. One is part of the job of being a doctor, the other one isn't.

I still think it's ridiculous that DO schools expect students to forfeit their bodily autonomy for OMM. Hire standardized patients. Letting other people examine you or practice on you shouldn't be an expectation of medical education.

If she doesn't want to be exposed or touched for whatever reason (cultural, religious, history of trauma, "I don't know but it makes me uncomfortable"), that shouldn't lead to people claiming she won't be able to treat patients of other cultures or religions. It just logically doesn't follow.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

People on here a being a bit one- sided. You act like she won't be guaranteed to interact and treat primarily people outside of her religion all throughout med school and residency. This is a primarily white Christian country afterall. When people study medicine at Loma Linda, UIWSOM, or even an HBCU, is anyone really questioning how they will possibly learn to treat "others"? If they do, they shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with her seeking a little comfort with people of her gender or faith in one small aspect of her medical training.

Next you'll all say that the LDS students or desi students or Korean students hanging out together will limit their ability to properly learn medicine....

Come on. You know full well that the Muslim community can be very conservative and follow very strict patterns. I would be saying the same thing about someone that was from an orthodox Jewish community. Believe it or not, there are people in the US that have put themselves into some extreme bubbles. Trying to avoid touching non-Muslims pretty much says that you are part of this. You don't see Catholics or Hindus trying to segregate in OMM for a reason

You know, there's a big difference between *touching patients* & *being touched by your peers*. One is part of the job of being a doctor, the other one isn't.

I still think it's ridiculous that DO schools expect students to forfeit their bodily autonomy for OMM. Hire standardized patients. Letting other people examine you or practice on you shouldn't be an expectation of medical education.

If she doesn't want to be exposed or touched for whatever reason (cultural, religious, history of trauma, "I don't know but it makes me uncomfortable"), that shouldn't lead to people claiming she won't be able to treat patients of other cultures or religions. It just logically doesn't follow.

Disagree. You're in professional school. That means start acting like a professional and that interactions are professional in nature. "Hey guys, I just want to train with my own but I promise that I'll be cool when it comes time practice," Right...

 

[El-Rami]

I would be very careful because people will get the impression that you are xenophobic.

 

[unexpectedcomplications]

I'm from your religious background myself, and this just seems like a great way to get a poor Dean's letter. I would suck it up and work with new students. You have to treat everyone the same regardless of race, creed, background as a physician. Most importantly, you have to be able to put yourself in a patient's shoes and see the encounter from their point of view. That's going to be hard when you only work with students from the same background as you.

By the way, how the heck do you even work in a group of 8?? That's much too large for anything productive.

 

[deleted1005514]

Read the policy you signed when you got into medical school very carefully. It probably says that you will adhere to the dress code (there’s a separate one for OMM) and policies of the school regarding physical touch in labs. You’re an adult, and you signed a legal, binding contract. You should know what it says inside and out, so if they deny your requests,

I’m not Muslim, but I’m from a very conservative background and I would prefer to only have female partners for OMM and doctoring courses. I have never made that request because my male colleagues have to learn to train on female patients. I need to learn to train on male patients too, especially ones from cultures where they really don’t want female doctors touching them. They will have to learn to touch female Muslim patients too, and the very best place for them to learn how to do this while respecting the customs of the Muslim culture is in medical school.

 

[sunshinefl]

At our school the Muslim females were able to wear modified outfits for physical skills and OMT classes, and only had female partners though not all Muslim. We, the other females, rotated through as partners/groups. But this was pre-COVID when 120 people were in the room together and not committed to just one group of people all term.

 

[hallowmann]

Come on. You know full well that the Muslim community can be very conservative and follow very strict patterns. I would be saying the same thing about someone that was from an orthodox Jewish community. Believe it or not, there are people in the US that have put themselves into some extreme bubbles. Trying to avoid touching non-Muslims pretty much says that you are part of this. You don't see Catholics or Hindus trying to segregate in OMM for a reason..

Sure buddy , because clearly the reason she is asking is because she doesn't want to touch others, and not that she doesn't want to be touched by a bunch of guys, you know, the thing she explicitly spells out in her posts. But you be you...

...
By the way, how the heck do you even work in a group of 8?? That's much too large for anything productive.

4 rotating pairs. This is literally how we did it every semester long before covid. The only difference being that we all met in a big room and rotated a partner every month or so.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

Sure buddy , because clearly the reason she is asking is because she doesn't want to touch others, and not that she doesn't want to be touched by a bunch of guys, you know, the thing she explicitly spells out in her posts. But you be you...

So you believe that she doesn't want to be touched by guys but at the same time is cool with having her hands all over guys when her post is about the importance of segregating due to cultural and religious reasons? Give me an f-ing break. It's obvious she's in a bubble and someone needs to burst that bubble for her if she'll be a competent physician. You're just trying to be "right" when you know you're not

 

[Goro]

I can see this thread is going to overheat.

So y'all take a step back and just consider that this is a growth opportunity for the OP, as Angus wisely pointed out.

 

[deleted769052]

I'm from your religious background and I've lived equally abroad (in strict and liberally religious countries (e.g. Lebanon) and in the US. I understand where you're coming from and your culture and values should be respected. With that said, this is an opportunity for growth and when you're a physician you can do whatever you want if you work as a private doctor. But when you're still learning as a student (especially if it's a public institution that receives tax dollars) you must try your best to interact with all kinds of people. Your classmates are all professionals and even if you worked with a white-male they will most certainly take extra measures to respect your religious beliefs. Others might disagree, but becoming a physician is a privilege, not a right. Just my $0.02.

 

[hallowmann]

So you believe that she doesn't want to be touched by guys but at the same time is cool with having her hands all over guys when her post is about the importance of segregating due to cultural and religious reasons? Give me an f-ing break. It's obvious she's in a bubble and someone needs to burst that bubble for her if she'll be a competent physician. You're just trying to be "right" when you know you're not

You know, you're right. Obviously she is so sheltered, as an adult that is educated enough to enter medical school, and all she needs is for you to save her by imposing your own cultural and social norms on her. This isn't about me, but this post sure as hell says a good amount about you and your feeling like you need to "liberate" OP.

 

[mwsapphire]

Good GOD

Okay, there are way too many negative responses on here so I'm gonna just adress them all at once.

I ended up asking that if I do be moved, that my group be mostly female. I did not mention Muslim. She gave me the option to stick to my current group and I took it. I never mentioned having a Muslim only group.

Being touched by male students/touching male students is something I'm trying to minimize if I can , but if I have to I would do it. It's just that you have one OMM partner and they can very easily be the same sex so why not? If it's possible why not do it? God. Think of it this way, it's not my personal comfort, but it's religious rules I'm trying to follow. Personally I wouldn't mind a male student touching me, but I know religiously I should try to avoid it if I can. Same w me touching a male student.

Also, I will move out of the comfort zone eventually. But this is my very first semester of OMM, and I already feel weird changing the dress code. It's almost like...I'm worried non Muslim students will be annoyed that Im not wearing shorts and tanks and it may be harder to feel me ( bones, etc.) under a pair of scrubs, but like, Muslim students wouldn't be as annoyed? I can shed that eventually, but in MY VERY FIRST semester of med school I didn't think it would be such a big deal. We did get to chose our groups so why not? Why do I have to run out of my comfort zone so quickly? Some of these posts reak of trying to "liberate" me. I will eventually, just right now it seems like it would make things a bit easier. The current group I'm ni does have 2 male students, I will practice on them when I have to, I'll just minimize it to when it's necessary.

Also, there are so many Muslim students that they are scattered everywhere.

Thanks to anybody who defended me.

TLDR: What in the HELL did ( some of) you guys do to my post??

 

[Dr Tapatio]

You know, you're right. Obviously she is so sheltered, as an adult that is educated enough to enter medical school, and all she needs is for you to save her by imposing your own cultural and social norms on her. This isn't about me, but this post sure as hell says a good amount about you and your feeling like you need to "liberate" OP.

The scenario takes place where I would be faculty, so in that scenario, yes, it is directly my responsibility what type of physician I turn out into the world. It's not about my culture or social norms. It's about what the objective world requires of the job. If it were about imposing my beliefs, believe me, there would be other things.

 

[mwsapphire]

Can somebody please lock this thread? @Matthew9Thirtyfive or some other mod.My question has been answered and the matter resolved.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Closed. Question answered.