It's Time to Retire Premed

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Article from Scientific American, written by Nathaniel Morris:

During my junior year of college, I waited in line with classmates to use a chemistry lab scale. We held fragile containers with an unknown white powder and had to identify the mystery powder using techniques like chromatography, distillation, and recrystallization. It was the most important lab of the year in organic chemistry.

Suddenly the girl next to me dropped her container. Her grade, her future, her hopes depended on that powder falling to her feet. When the container hit the floor, sending white dust across the floor, a nearby classmate pumped his fist and blurted out, “Yes!”

This is what it’s like to be pre-med.

Next month, students around the country will begin submitting their applications to medical schools. When we talk about the rigors of becoming a physician, we tend to focus on some classic rites of passage, like anatomy lab or intern year. But pre-med can be one of the most brutal and dehumanizing parts of medical training.

Medical school applicants generally have to complete a series of basic science courses, including biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. These requirements came to be after 1910, when the educator Abraham Flexner wrote a report on medical education for the Carnegie Foundation. Back then, medical schools had lax admissions standards and inconsistent, nonscientific curricula. But Flexner argued that medical training should be science-based and that applicants should complete undergraduate coursework in basic sciences in order to apply.

His recommendations were transformative. Since Flexner’s report, basic science classes have formed the foundation of how we screen aspiring doctors in the United States. Medical schools across the country have since required applicants to complete some variation of these core classes, and the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) has largely focused on these subjects.

But this system of pre-med is outdated and broken. It has to be fixed.

The first issue is that the required basic science classes have become largely irrelevant to modern medicine. Ask any medical student or physician how much they use knowledge from their pre-med classes. They’ll probably laugh at you.

Do primary care doctors use atomic orbital theory or SN2 reactions in clinic? Do surgeons need to know black body radiation or Schrodinger’s time-independent equation to care for patients?

Of course, physics can help future doctors understand blood flow, and chemistry can teach students about drug receptors. But virtually every college class, from financial planning to gender studies, has some relevance to medical practice. The question is which core classes will best identify and prepare future doctors.

Instead these basic science classes have turned into factories of cutthroat competition. At many colleges and universities, these classes have become the gateways to medical school and fill up with hundreds of anxious pre-meds. For example, in 2009, my introductory chemistry class at Cornell had over 820 students, all of us trying to distinguish ourselves from the heap.

Making matters worse, professors frequently grade students on a curve. In other words, students’ grades don’t depend on their own performance, but rather the comparison to their peers. That’s why my classmate pumped his fist when the other student dropped her powder sample in chemistry lab. He literally benefited from her misfortune.

These classes have come to be known as “weed out” courses for their role in culling the students who can’t cut it. Indeed I know plenty of classmates who would have made fantastic doctors, but fell victim to this brutal process.

I remember once studying with a brilliant classmate before one of these exams. He hoped to be a doctor, but became discouraged by pre-med coursework and eventually switched career tracks. That night, as we sat at a library table, surrounded by textbooks and papers, he looked up at me and asked, “Why do we have to do this to help patients?”

I’m not sure. We all want compassionate, well-rounded physicians to care for us. We want doctors who can work in teams and who put patients’ interests first. Yet our current pre-med system bears little relationship to the practice of medicine and encourages students to focus on their own success above all else.

We should look for budding doctors who dream of caring for patients and spend their college years developing diverse passions. Students who study the injustices of socioeconomic disparities, the intricacies of music theory or the beauty of poetry can also make great physicians.

Research backs this up. Since 1987, the Icahn School of Medicine at Mt. Sinai has run a Humanities and Medicine Program (HuMed) that admits non-traditional applicants who haven’t taken the usual pre-med requirements. In 2010, faculty there published a study of hundreds of students and found HuMed students and traditional pre-med students performed at virtually the same level in medical school.

Mt. Sinai has since expanded this program, and more medical schools have followed suit. Last year, the American Association of Medical Colleges released a new version of the MCAT that includes sections on social sciences and psychology. These are encouraging reforms, but we need to do more.

More than a century ago, Abraham Flexner recognized that medical education should be science-based. But we’ve since taken his recommendations too far. Today we “weed out” potentially wonderful doctors through a demoralizing maze of basic sciences that more often resembles the Hunger Games than a sensible recruitment process.

It's time for a new Flexner report. It's time to reconsider what we value in our physicians.
Thoughts?

I've never really thought about it, but grading on a curve really made me wish that others would do poorly. I didn't process that at the time, but I actually got happy when I found out that the rest of the class did poorly.

Is the pre-medical track as it is right now outdated? How should it be changed?
 
I mean, the process of getting into med school can of course be improved, but I don't know how I'm supposed to evaluate the words of a current HMS student who's clearly been able to 'overcome' the hardships of being a Cornell pre-med.
 
Most of the "premed" experience I actually enjoyed. I liked my science classes, even the weed-out ones. It can be difficult but it gave me a sense of purpose and accomplishment. I didn't mind the MCAT. When I was studying for the MCAT, although I had to put in a lot of hours, I felt that I was at the absolute peak of my own knowledge and abilities. Honestly, I had a blast for my first three years of college. The actual process of applying I have found to be an earthly horror but that's another story.
 
Sure maybe you don't need to use SN2 reactions or physics equations in your life as a physician but I do believe your ability to do well in these classes correlates well with your ability to do well in med school. Frankly I wouldn't want my life in the hands of someone who couldn't pull off a B or better in ochem but that's just me.
 
Premed life was easy. If people find it unbearably stressful, then they aren't cut out for being a physician.

And please...dropping one beaker doesn't shatter one's hopes and dreams. I broke 3 in one day in a quantitative analysis class... just had to restart the whole experiment. Not the end of the world.
 
Honestly, I just always focused on doing the best I can and taking advantage of the opportunities I had during my time at my university. I found out what I needed to do to get into medical school and I did it. I also became involved with things I liked and I stopped doing things I didn't like.

I feel like when people do things for the sake of how it will look to ADCOMS or to "check off the pre-med list" the process may feel more miserable.
 
I think there are some good and useful points in that article that bear examining. Not every brilliant scientist is cut out to treat patients with understanding and compassion. Some are nearly devoid of social skills...

You don't want to lower the academic bar certainly, but we should consider if the current measurements are the most appropriate.
 
First of all, how difficult being pre-med is depends on the university you go to. So don't be so quick to judge others who may have had a different experience than you. I'm here to give you a perspective from the other side - namely as a graduate student who has worked with professors extensively in teaching and grading courses. The grading system the writer is blasting is not unique to pre-meds. His view is very egocentric indeed. All introductory-level science courses are graded in much the same manner. You take each student's performance and fit it to a normal curve. If you want to give out 10% A's, you give the top 10% of students A's. In many courses, it's just that simple. Again, at most schools, pre-meds, science majors, pre-pharm, etc. all take the same basic science curriculum. It may be a little different if you're at a large university with pre-med-only courses. But the point is, that's just how grading in the sciences works. If we didn't grade exams on a curve and instead graded it on an absolute scale, many more potential pre-meds would be failing just because writing exams is hard. From your perspective, it might seem simple but it's actually quite difficult because you have to include just enough information for the student to solve the problem assuming a proficient level of knowledge. But "proficient" is hard to operationalize. Something obvious to a grad student or professor who has experience with PChem may be very difficult to a student without that knowledge. So we have to be very careful even on Orgo exams when we ask about rates and rate-limiting steps and KIEs because sometimes, the presumption of knowledge is fallacious. So the easier thing to do is to grade an exam on a curve so that even if we're assuming too much, students can still be judged on performance relative to their peers. I'm not saying this is the "correct" way to do it, but if someone has a better suggestion, I would be happy to listen to it.

Second, the "pre-med" competitive mentality suggested by the writer is more of a personality trait than anything else. If someone is competitive, they are likely to be an ass when it comes to collaboration even if we start grading to different standards. And in fact, that deficiency in collaborative traits is something that is likely to come across eventually and, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not a good trait to have in a doctor anyway and he/she may not even be admitted because of it. In my experience, students will form study groups and help each other out and these are the students who perform the best on the exam. The best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else and answer that other person's critiques and questions. That's the essence of science.

Finally, to make this brief, I'll just point out that medicine is indeed becoming more science- and data-driven - hence the more data-heavy new MCAT. I'm not a doctor so of course I can't make an authoritative statement about this, but while basic chemistry, biology, and physics likely won't ever come up again (show me a doctor who has had to know the solution of the classical wave equation on the fly) in your future profession, each of these sciences imparts a way of thinking that is very important for anyone who wants to go into a scientific discipline and, again in my humble opinion, medicine is in fact a scientific discipline. Now, I'm not saying that these are the only skills one needs - of course not. On top of logical and scientific reasoning, one needs people skills to become a good physician and that's why I believe medical schools and programs like FlexMed are beginning to emphasize these other inter- and intra-personal competencies.
 
There are a good number of flaws with the current system and the author highlights many of them.

The problem is Im not really sold on any other significantly different methods being more effective at all. The Mt Sinai HuMed system is however one worth monitoring as it expands now.

All this boils down to is the same old question of what should schools target for applicants? Academics given the nature of medicine and how crippling losing students can be for schools and medicine in general will always be a major focus. But what exactly is the best way to go after applicants who have qualities you really want in a future physician be it "empathy/compassion" "liking working with patients" or even "most likely to work in the most underserved areas of medicine" etc? The predictors we have right now for people very likely to fit those characteristics arent strong enough as is and frankly there is a limit to how well you can predict a 21 year old will be at these things 15-20+ years down the line. But given how limited we are in predicting many of these things, the system as is will largely be what's in place for better and worse.

One issue that could be addressed in terms of evaluating academics is giving more possible standardized tests to compare applicants and putting less weight on individual transcripts from different schools that have no way of being standardized, particularly when studies have shown the MCAT to clearly be a better predictor of success in medical school than undergraduate GPA(although both are rather limited).

There are certainly fundamental issues with the system as is that are flawed and are not for the better of medicine, but coming up with solutions is always much harder than finding problems.
 
I'm not going to lie. Pre-med was tough but I'm glad I went through it. Pre-med isn't supposed to be easy and it shouldn't be a track of study that awards you just for participating.
 
This "mai lyfe is soooo hard #premed #living@thelibrary" stuff is overly dramatic nonsense.

Dropping a beaker ended her career? Unless this is a shot at being poetic, no it didn't. More dramz.

I honestly find this argument of "all this chemistry stuff isn't important for being a doctor" to be at best misunderstanding the point and at worst anti intellectual. No, you're not going to use orbital theory in practice, but being able to understand and apply that skill to get an A in chemistry demonstrates that a student may have the potential to excell in medical school curricula.
 
One issue that could be addressed in terms of evaluating academics is giving more possible standardized tests to compare applicants and putting less weight on individual transcripts from different schools that have no way of being standardized, particularly when studies have shown the MCAT to clearly be a better predictor of success in medical school than undergraduate GPA(although both are rather limited).

Oh, the horror! I don't think administered more standardized tests is very advisable, given that many pre-meds already spend 3-6+ months preparing for the MCAT. If you start giving more tests, their poor undergraduate experience will entirely consist of studying! I think it would be more advisable to put more weight on MCAT, less on GPA, and more also on clinical experience. Not on how many hours pre-meds spend volunteering, but rather how they talk about those experiences in interviews, essays, etc. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on how they talk about their extra-curriculars, namely is it egocentric or not.
 
Don't have time to comment on the whole article, but here are my experiences as a first year medical student and how my premed classes related to it.

Biochemistry is fundamental to everything. When we learned "oh this complement pathway activates via the action of a serine protease", I have a conceptual understanding of what that actually means because I learned what serine proteases do in biochemistry and I (at least somewhat) understand the organic chemistry behind it due to the fact that I, well, took organic chemistry.

Physics is essential to both cardiology and pulmonology and understanding how things like inotropes affect cardiac output or how radius, flow, and pressure are related (cardiology) and how things like tidal volume and obstructive ventilatory defects work (pulmonology).

Chemistry (particularly electrochemistry, but also acid-base, molarity, etc) are necessary to understanding how a nephron works and how different drugs or biological substances affect nephron function and what they do.

Biology is self explanatory... how are you going to appreciate the concept of the krebs cycle or the electron transport chain without knowing what a mitochondria is, what it does, or how it works?

Math, particularly algebra but also statistics, is very helpful for the many different calculations you have to do in cardiology, renal, pulmonology, pharmacology, and genetics. Plus, if you don't understand statistics, how can you hope to evaluate a scientific study or conduct one of your own?

Is every single part of physics or chemistry or whatever necessary? No, probably not, but I think that medical school would be a lot harder if you didn't have this baseline level of understanding to build upon.
 
I wonder how currently salty pre-meds would feel if the requirements got waived, the physician job market gets over-saturated, and then suddenly we get MD/DO waiters at TGI Fridays.

Oh wait, I actually know: "Oh man, we should bring back the pre-med process so we have enough jobs!"

No competition=too many doctors=look at the current law school landscape.
 
Oh, the horror! I don't think administered more standardized tests is very advisable, given that many pre-meds already spend 3-6+ months preparing for the MCAT. If you start giving more tests, their poor undergraduate experience will entirely consist of studying! I think it would be more advisable to put more weight on MCAT, less on GPA, and more also on clinical experience. Not on how many hours pre-meds spend volunteering, but rather how they talk about those experiences in interviews, essays, etc. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on how they talk about their extra-curriculars, namely is it egocentric or not.

The problem in many ways is the focus shouldnt be on "material" per se but more in evaluation of key skills.

Really the "material" pre-meds are tested on is largely irrelevant. Ochem isnt given significant weight in admission evaluation because the material matters particularly in medicine(same with physics), rather it's simply a weed out and has been deemed as a good way of separating those with good habits from those with poor.

The best standardized tests are the ones really where "material" is directly tested the least. The LSAT is a prime example. Really studying has rather limited returns on a test like this. And this is what the MCAT is becoming more and more like. More about analysis of data and reading comprehension(which are truly skills not things that you prep by getting a Kaplan book and memorizing pathways etc). These in many ways are tests you have to study the least for but are most relevant and insightful about someone. Multiple tests about something like this, such as studying language skills, vs reading comprehension skills, vs whatever else you want and deem relevant that have limited returns through studying and focus very little on material to me are the best and most beneficial ones in admission processes to evaluate people. They also happen to be alot more friendly to applicants.

As for the classes themselves, we already have things like ACS finals for chem and biochem which are national tests many colleges use for final exams and are graded on a national curve. They really arent that much more work to prep for(I took one of them). And they dont have to be given enormous weight. Rather, just having all or at least more pre-meds taking them allows for standardization across many class rooms and context for grades. The more there is of that, the better, even if it means less focus on undergrad tests in specific schools. You can easily work everything out so there isn't more time spent on school work but you have more tests that can standardize and directly compare applicants better.
 
"Suddenly the girl next to me dropped her container. Her grade, her future, her hopes depended on that powder falling to her feet. When the container hit the floor, sending white dust across the floor, a nearby classmate pumped his fist and blurted out, “Yes!”

This is what it’s like to be pre-med."


No it freaking isn't. I don't know if the author went to Pyongyang University of Abject Misery but that is not remotely congruent with anything I have ever heard from my own institution nor anything in this country.

This is the type of "horror" story stressed UG kids tell their parents to make their own undertakings seem "cool" or "cutthroat".
 
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"Suddenly the girl next to me dropped her container. Her grade, her future, her hopes depended on that powder falling to her feet. When the container hit the floor, sending white dust across the floor, a nearby classmate pumped his fist and blurted out, “Yes!”

This is what it’s like to be pre-med."


No it freaking isn't. I don't know if the author went to Pyongyang University of Abject Misery but that is not remotely congruent with anything I have ever heard from my own institution nor anything in this country.

This is the type of "horror" story stressed UG kids tell their parents to make their own undertakings seem "cool" or "cutthroat".

Hahahaha. To be fair, I have seen people cry in ochem lab, but no one celebrated when someone's experiment got destroyed, we all felt pretty bad for them.
 
Really the "material" pre-meds are tested on is largely irrelevant. Ochem isnt given significant weight in admission evaluation because the material matters particularly in medicine(same with physics), rather it's simply a weed out and has been deemed as a good way of separating those with good habits from those with poor.

Yes, but OChem is largely eliminated from the new MCAT and the new MCAT tests very little OChem (to my great chagrin because my research lies in the space between organics and metallics). The new MCAT does stress that kind of scientific reasoning you are mentioning - and it's moving towards even more emphasis of logic and reasoning.

The best standardized tests are the ones really where "material" is directly tested the least. The LSAT is a prime example. Really studying has rather limited returns on a test like this. And this is what the MCAT is becoming more and more like. More about analysis of data and reading comprehension(which are truly skills not things that you prep by getting a Kaplan book and memorizing pathways etc). These in many ways are tests you have to study the least for but are most relevant and insightful about someone. Multiple tests about something like this, such as studying language skills, vs reading comprehension skills, vs whatever else you want and deem relevant that have limited returns through studying and focus very little on material to me are the best and most beneficial ones in admission processes to evaluate people. They also happen to be alot more friendly to applicants.

Well, they do have this sort of test - namely the GRE. Presumably, all you would need to do is make a harder version of the GRE that emphasizes the key competencies you want. But the problem with this is, in my opinion, pre-meds still need basic science reasoning. If you look at Section Bank questions, they are like LSAT style reasoning questions on steroids, applied to science. The new MCAT isn't quite there yet but it's definitely where it's heading given the Section Bank so I definitely think the new MCAT should be viewed very favorably in terms of standardization across applicants. Something like 80-90% of the new MCAT simply cannot be prepped for - you either have those skills or you don't (this is my own estimate as well as that of several others on here).

As for the classes themselves, we already have things like ACS finals for chem and biochem which are national tests many colleges use for final exams and are graded on a national curve. They really arent that much more work to prep for(I took one of them). And they dont have to be given enormous weight. Rather, just having all or at least more pre-meds taking them allows for standardization across many class rooms and context for grades. The more there is of that, the better, even if it means less focus on undergrad tests in specific schools. You can easily work everything out so there isn't more time spent on school work but you have more tests that can standardize and directly compare applicants better.

This is actually a great suggestion and graduate schools do use those exams for admission. However, as they currently stand, they are in direct contrast to your first point, namely they emphasize memorization a lot more than reasoning. Just look at the Orgo or Biochem ACS exams. PChem is a little better but also very memorization-oriented - it's impossible to have someone, say, derive the zero-point energy of a harmonic oscillator from first principles on a standardized exam because that one problem would take the better part of an hour. This is why I believe the MCAT does a good job of standardizing already across the sciences.
 
This is actually a great suggestion and graduate schools do use those exams for admission. However, as they currently stand, they are in direct contrast to your first point, namely they emphasize memorization a lot more than reasoning. Just look at the Orgo or Biochem ACS exams. PChem is a little better but also very memorization-oriented - it's impossible to have someone, say, derive the zero-point energy of a harmonic oscillator from first principles on a standardized exam because that one problem would take the better part of an hour. This is why I believe the MCAT does a good job of standardizing already across the sciences.

It's more about providing more ways of analysis of applicants. It helps providing ways of standardizing different versions of pre-reqs offered at different schools. And like I said you are testing different skills in a standardized manner. Now it's not just testing the more logic and critical thinking skills in a standardized manner you do so with memorization as well. Really it's no different than high school with SAT subject tests and AP tests
 
If you read the author's other works, you will see that he is a little melodramatic. But he was published in the WSJ, NYT, Chicago Tribune, JAMA, so that's cool

The biggest problem with this article is that he doesn't provide a suggestion for the future. What should we reconsider? Can we not consider both personality factors and premed courses? Is it the fault of premed courses and med school admissions or just the students themselves who choose to act crazy sometimes? Where is the balance? Is it not possible to be a very strong premed student and compassionate?
 
It's more about providing more ways of analysis of applicants. It helps providing ways of standardizing different versions of pre-reqs offered at different schools. And like I said you are testing different skills in a standardized manner. Now it's not just testing the more logic and critical thinking skills in a standardized manner you do so with memorization as well. Really it's no different than high school with SAT subject tests and AP tests

It's not a bad suggestion at all, but it's unlikely to work. The reason for this is twofold. 1) Professors still assign grades based on their own standards - the ACS norms only set the curve to which to normalize from and 2) because of this, professors will still curve the class. Unless you have experience being a faculty member, you have no idea how much pressure there is from university administration to grade according to how the administration wants. I don't know if you've heard of the news article a few years back about a professor failing most of her class? Universities make money because students go there and no student wants to go to a "bad" university. So implementing this at a mid-to-lower tier university would result in half the class getting C's and/or failing. No professor at those universities is going to do that because their jobs depend on student feedback and on the administration unless they have tenure and even then, the administration can make life miserable for a professor. So what will happen is the professor will take the raw scores, normalize according to the ACS exam, and add a correction factor so that most of the class isn't getting C's, D's, or F's.

Your point is a good one because it points out a fundamental flaw in our current mass education system. We're simply graduating too many unqualified candidates - colleges are profit-generating institutions no matter what their tax-status dictates and so they hesitate to fail students. That gives them a lower 4-year graduation rate and makes them look bad. So instead, they put pressure on faculty to give out higher grades - hence the problem with grade inflation.
 
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If you read the author's other works, you will see that he is a little melodramatic. But he was published in the WSJ, NYT, Chicago Tribune, JAMA, so that's cool

The biggest problem with this article is that he doesn't provide a suggestion for the future. What should we reconsider? Can we not consider both personality factors and premed courses? Is it the fault of premed courses and med school admissions or just the students themselves who choose to act crazy sometimes? Where is the balance?
If anything can be cut from basic sciences, I would say perhaps some of the basic physics coursework with E&M, and add in more biochemistry.
 
It's not a bad suggestion at all, but it's unlikely to work. The reason for this is twofold. 1) Professors still assign grades based on their own standards - the ACS norms only set the curve to which to normalize from and 2) because of this, professors will still curve the class. Unless you have experience being a faculty member, you have no idea how much pressure there is from university administration to grade according to how the administration wants. I don't know if you've heard of the news article a few years back about a professor failing most of her class? Universities make money because students go there and no student wants to go to a "bad" university. So implementing this at a mid-to-lower tier university would result in half the class getting C's and/or failing. No professor at those universities is going to do that because their jobs depend on student feedback and on the administration unless they have tenure and even then, the administration can make life miserable for a professor. So what will happen is the professor will take the raw scores, normalize according to the ACS exam, and add a correction factor so that most of the class isn't getting C's, D's, or F's.

Your point is a good one because it points out a fundamental flaw in our current mass education system. We're simply graduating too many unqualified candidates - colleges are profit-generating institutions no matter what their tax-status dictates and so they hesitate to fail students. That gives them a lower 4-year graduation rate and makes them look bad. So instead, they put pressure on faculty to give out higher grades - hence the problem with grade inflation.

No system is perfect but having people take ACS or whatever test along those likes you want and those scores being sent as part of your application adds more context and standardization. We need more of both those things, not less.

Yeah the funny part of all this talk about "pre med competition for grades are too intense" etc misses the point that largely we have a grade inflation problem at the pre-med level. 40% of people who apply to med school each year dont even hit 30 on the MCAT. We have too many people with high grades applying each year and where there is a clear GPA-MCAT dissonance in favor of the GPA. The only people who really suffer from true grade deflation are those at the high end private schools where 2/3 of people or so with a 3.2-3.4 hit 30+ on the MCAT etc.
 
2) The MCAT. Does anyone stop and think as to why the scores on the exam are marked of percentile rankings instead of outright content knowledge? Sure, the MCAT is a standardized test that has to be able to differentiate between students; however, imagine a similar example to the "Physics lab" problem.

Hypothetically, let's say 10 years from now, the average MCAT test taker gets 90% of all questions correct. Currently (from my assessment of the AAMC practice exams), you would be in the 95th percentile or better. Later on, if that 90% of questions becomes the average, you're only in the 50th %ile. In this example, if the average student had 90% mastery of the material on the MCAT, then, from my perspective, the proper response from the medical community shouldn't be to limit the spots only to those who, for example, scored 100% and were in the 100th %ile; rather, there would need to be increased investment in medical schools to accept more students (via larger class sizes or the opening of more schools).

You performing better than me on the MCAT means that you know the material better, but, as of this moment, it does not necessarily mean that you know significantly more material than I do.... in fact, it could be an indicator that everyone applying knows this material very, very well or (if the situation were reversed where everyone did poorly) or poorly.

Very good, eye-opening anecdote about grading practices. However, the supposition with the MCAT and other standardized exams is that the population does not change significantly from year to year. That is, on average, one applicant pool just isn't that much smarter than the previous years'. But in case they are, the AAMC has thought of that too. That's why they update the MCAT percentiles each year based on the previous year's data. That means that you're always being compared to your peers as accurately as possible. Also, the new MCAT is not based on content mastery but rather scientific reasoning, which is harder to "master" than content simply because it's developed over years of practice. It's more of a skill than what facts you know.
 
No system is perfect but having people take ACS or whatever test along those likes you want and those scores being sent as part of your application adds more context and standardization. We need more of both those things, not less.

Yeah the funny part of all this talk about "pre med competition for grades are too intense" etc misses the point that largely we have a grade inflation problem at the pre-med level. 40% of people who apply to med school each year dont even hit 30 on the MCAT. We have too many people with high grades applying each year and where there is a clear GPA-MCAT dissonance in favor of the GPA. The only people who really suffer from true grade deflation are those at the high end private schools where 2/3 of people or so with a 3.2-3.4 hit 30+ on the MCAT etc.

Personally, here's how I would do it. It's radical and it could never happen, but in my ideal world, here's how it would work. In the introductory science curriculum, standardize all final exams. So have one for general physics, chemistry, biology, and biochemistry. Your university grade for these introductory courses will be based solely on what you get on that exam. The exam itself I will not define because a lot of work has to go into that to make sure it's representative of the curriculum and tests scientific reasoning rather than content memorization. You have to ensure that teachers don't teach to the test, so to speak. That way, a level of standardization is introduced into your GPA. It won't happen, but it's something to think about.

I truly believe that medical schools have it all wrong in that they weigh GPA so highly. It's disgusting how they love preserving their statistics. A 4.0 at low-tier state school is not the same as a 4.0 at MIT. But you know, a 3.5 from MIT with a 40 MCAT is still going to bring down the GPA statistics even though the MIT kid can probably do science at a much higher level than the other guy. In fact, at the undergrad I went to, the average MCAT of rejected applicants (rejected from all schools they applied to) is >30. How perverse is that? But there's some consolation in that top-tier med schools do in fact give some weight to where you did your undergrad because they seem to be more in tune to the relative difficulties of different curricula.
 
Personally, here's how I would do it. It's radical and it could never happen, but in my ideal world, here's how it would work. In the introductory science curriculum, standardize all final exams. So have one for general physics, chemistry, biology, and biochemistry. Your university grade for these introductory courses will be based solely on what you get on that exam. The exam itself I will not define because a lot of work has to go into that to make sure it's representative of the curriculum and tests scientific reasoning rather than content memorization. You have to ensure that teachers don't teach to the test, so to speak. That way, a level of standardization is introduced into your GPA. It won't happen, but it's something to think about.

I truly believe that medical schools have it all wrong in that they weigh GPA so highly. It's disgusting how they love preserving their statistics. A 4.0 at low-tier state school is not the same as a 4.0 at MIT. But you know, a 3.5 from MIT with a 40 MCAT is still going to bring down the GPA statistics even though the MIT kid can probably do science at a much higher level than the other guy. In fact, at the undergrad I went to, the average MCAT of rejected applicants (rejected from all schools they applied to) is >30. How perverse is that? But there's some consolation in that top-tier med schools do in fact give some weight to where you did your undergrad because they seem to be more in tune to the relative difficulties of different curricula.
They would do very well in their application cycle
 
Just think about this, U.S students who don't complete pre-med in a U.S university are not even able to apply to a U.S medical school, yet IMGs who have not completed pre-med in any university, U.S or not, and have not even attended a U.S medical school make up ~25% of the U.S physician population and they are doing perfectly fine, often making ground-breaking advances in their fields and obtaining leadership positions. Currently, pre-med is basically used as an aging vat/weed-out process for potential medical candidates. It contributes very little to the actual practice of medicine. All it serves to do is weed out the thousands of people who are interested in medicine but cannot handle the work-load/lifestyle associated with it. Unfortunately, this weeding out comes with some serious costs that are mainly carried by patients and society as a whole. Student debt piles up as students are paying for classes that have very little relevance to medicine and more importantly, physician practice times are decreased because of pre-med. Imagine how much productivity is lost when 75% of the entire physician work-force (i.e physicians who did pre-med) lose 4 years worth of practice time because they were too busy studying SN1 reactions at the early stages of their careers.

In my opinion, the system needs to be changed. Here are my own proposals (feel free to critique):

1. Instead of requiring an undergraduate degree, make national standardized exams (like finals) for each of the pre-reqs: i.e AAMC Physics Exam, AAMC Chemistry Exam, AAMC Biology Exam, AAMC Psych+Soc Exam. Students can take these exams whenever they feel ready and regardless of whether they have taken courses or studied on their own.

2. Calculate GPA based on scores from these exams.

3. Maintain all the other requirements (volunteering, shadowing, etc) but let anyone who has completed the final exams (regardless of whether they went to college or not) and taken the MCAT apply for medical school.

GPAs are currently meaningless when comparing applicants on a national scale since different colleges have different grading criteria. The standardized final exams will allow for valid comparisons across applicants and also allow students who would rather study at their own pace the opportunity to do so. By eliminating the need for undergraduate degrees, we are effectively allowing people to enter medicine several years earlier and directly benefiting society by increasing the productivity of each physician.
 
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On the verge of graduating from a smaller school, I can say that my experience was definitely not like this. I enjoyed my basic science classes and got to know my professors. Wouldn't trade it.
However, I've shadowed physicians and talked with other students in this environment and I can only shake my head. Something is wrong if you are cheering for another students failure, or worse, actively seeking it out. I guess the question that admissions committees around the country are all asking is, "How do we make this process better?" I don't believe that decreasing the rigor of undergrad is the answer.
 
Wut? After 4 years of med school, 3-7 years of residency you would judge your doc on whether or not he had a difficult o-chem class? That makes sense...
Idk the theory of general intelligence isn't popular for no reason. I mean obviously someone could reinvent themselves, learn how to study better whatever but for the most part I believe that intelligence correlates pretty well across all fields. Obviously one C in ochem is an extreme but I do believe that someone consistently doing poorly will probably remain the same with further outcomes.
 
Becoming a physician is actually a lot less cutthroat in the US than say, Hong Kong.

In Hong Kong, UGs cannot choose their majors freely; what majors are available to you largely depends on your highschool exit exam. At any given university, you will only see a handful of "premeds" on their MBBS track.
 
the article said:
Suddenly the girl next to me dropped her container. Her grade, her future, her hopes depended on that powder falling to her feet. When the container hit the floor, sending white dust across the floor, a nearby classmate pumped his fist and blurted out, “Yes!”

This is what it’s like to be pre-med.

Nope, that's just what it's like being in a class full of dbags.
 
1. Instead of requiring an undergraduate degree, make national standardized exams (like finals) for each of the pre-reqs: i.e AAMC Physics Exam, AAMC Chemistry Exam, AAMC Biology Exam, AAMC Psych+Soc Exam. Students can take these exams whenever they feel ready and regardless of whether they have taken courses or studied on their own.

2. Calculate GPA based on scores from these exams.

3. Maintain all the other requirements (volunteering, shadowing, etc) but let anyone who has completed the final exams (regardless of whether they went to college or not) and the MCAT apply for medical school.

GPAs are currently meaningless when comparing applicants on a national scale since different colleges have different grading criteria. The standardized final exams will allow for valid comparisons across applicants and also allow students who would rather study at their own pace the opportunity to do so. By eliminating the need for undergraduate degrees, we are effectively allowing people to enter medicine several years earlier and directly benefiting society by increasing the productivity of each physician.

Interesting proposal- I definitely like the increased standardization and flexibility. There are only two issues I see.

1) Being able to succeed in standardized exams doesn't necessarily correlate with being capable of handling a heavy workload. So someone who foregoes college to study for the AAMC tests may score well, but lacks the time-management and related skills associated with taking a full-time workload. I guess you could say people with high MCAT/low GPA fall into this category, although it isn't as common as high GPA/low MCAT folks. So a school would somehow have to predict this based on scores alone (although to be fair, there's probably a high correlation between score and work ethic).

2) I'm not sure how you value laboratory work, but it isn't really feasible to do labs at home associated with bio, chem, etc. If that's experience schools want.
 
Interesting proposal- I definitely like the increased standardization and flexibility. There are only two issues I see.

1) Being able to succeed in standardized exams doesn't necessarily correlate with being capable of handling a heavy workload. So someone who foregoes college to study for the AAMC tests may score well, but lacks the time-management and related skills associated with taking a full-time workload. I guess you could say people with high MCAT/low GPA fall into this category, although it isn't as common as high GPA/low MCAT folks. So a school would somehow have to predict this based on scores alone (although to be fair, there's probably a high correlation between score and work ethic).

2) I'm not sure how you value laboratory work, but it isn't really feasible to do labs at home associated with bio, chem, etc. If that's experience schools want.

Thanks for the response. You bring up a valid point. My only suggestion would be that admissions committees look at how much the student accomplished in addition to taking the final exams. For example, if they held a full time job as a research assistant and also volunteered for 10 hours/week and managed to finish all the exams in 2 years, you know they have good time management skills.
 
Is this not a good thing?

It is a good thing, but not at the cost of forcing everyone to study four years of material that is largely irrelevant to the daily practice of medicine. There are more efficient ways to weed out thousands of people without burdening everyone with student debt and decreasing the practicing physician's career by four full years.
 
It is a good thing, but not at the cost of forcing everyone to study four years of material that is largely irrelevant to the daily practice of medicine. There are more efficient ways to weed out thousands of people without burdening everyone with student debt and decreasing the practicing physician's career by four full years.

It sounds like you have a problem with the general liberal arts education then. I myself haven't yet formulated an opinion on it but do you prefer the European style of instruction?
 
It is a good thing, but not at the cost of forcing everyone to study four years of material that is largely irrelevant to the daily practice of medicine. There are more efficient ways to weed out thousands of people without burdening everyone with student debt and decreasing the practicing physician's career by four full years.
Such as?
 
It sounds like you have a problem with the general liberal arts education then. I myself haven't yet formulated an opinion on it but do you prefer the European style of instruction?

I'm not too familiar with the European style of instruction but I can say that my problem is mainly with the fact that people are forced to take classes they otherwise would not take, and would not need, to practice medicine. For example, I am very interested in the sciences and very much enjoyed my science classes, yet I had to take so many humanities classes just to obtain my undergraduate degree. Likewise, I don't see why someone interested in humanities should be forced to take upper level science classes like physical chemistry or quantum mechanics. Additionally, I don't like the idea of comparing GPAs across institutions. It just doesn't make sense when schools have such different grading criteria. Even just at my own institution, students who had one professor would have far lower work load and an easier time getting an A than students who had another professor. These variances in grading are much larger when comparing students from entirely different universities, which makes the GPA a less-than-useful metric.
 
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Standardized tests (see post above about finals), ECs, interviews, life-experiences, etc. The MCAT by itself does an excellent job of weeding out thousands of potential applicants.
 
I'm not too familiar with the European style of instruction but I can say that my problem is mainly with the fact that people are forced to take classes they otherwise would not take, and would not need, to practice medicine. For example, I am very interested in the sciences and very much enjoyed my science classes, yet I had to take so many humanities classes just to obtain my undergraduate degree. Similarly, I don't like the idea of comparing GPAs across institutions. It just doesn't make sense when schools have such different grading criteria. Even just at my own institution, students who had one professor would have far lower work load and an easier time getting an A than students who had another professor. These variances in grading are much larger when comparing students from entirely different universities, which makes the GPA a less-than-useful metric.

I understand your point about GPA but just not about the forcing people to take classes. The European style is to use standardized exams from high school to determine professional schools. So people go directly from high school there to medical school and medicine is a bachelor's level degree. One can still choose to attend a four-year school, of course, but the four year programs are very directed and so if you are in the chemistry course, for example, you would only be taking chemistry or science-related classes. There's no broad grounding in the liberal arts, in contrast to the U.S. To compare, take Columbia's Core Curriculum where students are basically forced to take a year- or semester-long (can't remember which) course that covers the entire Western canon.
 
There's value in being a well-rounded person and having knowledge of things outside of your field.

I agree, however I believe the well-roundedness you obtain from taking classes is a tiny fraction of what you obtain from life experiences. I don't think forcing someone to take "The History of 16th Century England" to be able to study medicine is an effective way of increasing their well-roundedness. In my opinion, partaking in a variety of ECs (theater, tennis, research, fencing, etc) makes one more well-rounded than taking classes about subjects that one has very little interest in.

Again, I'm not saying people should not be allowed to take classes in other subjects. I'm simply saying it should not be required to have an undergraduate degree (which often necessitates taking classes like those) to study medicine.
 
I understand your point about GPA but just not about the forcing people to take classes. The European style is to use standardized exams from high school to determine professional schools. So people go directly from high school there to medical school and medicine is a bachelor's level degree. One can still choose to attend a four-year school, of course, but the four year programs are very directed and so if you are in the chemistry course, for example, you would only be taking chemistry or science-related classes. There's no broad grounding in the liberal arts, in contrast to the U.S. To compare, take Columbia's Core Curriculum where students are basically forced to take a year- or semester-long (can't remember which) course that covers the entire Western canon.

I see. In that case, the only thing I would object to about the European system is the lack of flexibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like someone who takes a chemistry course would effectively be locked in to chemistry and unable to explore other areas.
 
Oh my God. Get over it. Pre-med is /not/ that hard. If you can't handle the challenge or the competition, find another career.

Basically my take on the subject.

That being said:

Competitive grading IS dumb and counter-educational. Doesn't make sense in the current educational structure.

Humanities and social science courses are almost certainly going to be more helpful to the pre-medical student than more and more basic science when all of the relevant basic science is just covered or recovered in medical school.

The current hoop-jumping system discourages people from challenging themselves and the box-checking mentality distracts the individual from actually extracting value from their education / undergraduate experience if they are not paying close attention.

I don't think pre-meds know enough about government, sociology, ethics, the law, and economics - myself VERY MUCH included, I wish I had more time to learn everything I want to learn. The goals and outcomes of medicine are very closely related to all of those fields, and indeed depend on them, even though the common physician is at best at the mercy of their forces rather than a driver behind them. Topics very much worth understanding but too broad to be considered part of a medical school curriculum.

The idea of "pre-anything" is distasteful on its own.
 
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