ivy league school undergrad

[nancy0223]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot iharder in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

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[jebus]

Because the classes are a lot in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

My suggestion: Yes. The classes in ivies are a lot than other schools. People know this. These people include admissions committees. However, I think some other real benefits to ivies are the myriad high quality extracurricular opportunities available to students. So take advantage of this and do not rest on the fact that classes are a lot in the ivies than other schools.

 

[mtDNA]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

I can definitely say from my experiences on the interview trail that schools do value an Ivy League undergrad. Basically, the more prestigious the school I was interviewing at, the more Ivy league pre-meds there were. When I interviewed at the University of Michigan, half of all the people I spoke to were from Ivy League schools.

 

[loljkttyl]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

God I hope so! From what I've been seeing so far this application cycle, I think your GPA can be ~0.1-0.2 below the avg. GPA of that school, and you still have a shot at getting interviewed/accepted...provided, of course, your MCAT is still on par with the school's average.

 

[Einsteinemc2]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot iharder in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

What studies have you read that provide evidence that an Ivy education is harder than others? Because if you're just accepting that at face value, you might want to re-evaluate.

 

[87138]

What studies have you read that provide evidence that an Ivy education is harder than others? Because if you're just accepting that at face value, you might want to re-evaluate.

In fact, many people claim the opposite, that Ivies are notorious for grade inflation.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

In fact, many people claim the opposite, that Ivies are notorious for grade inflation.

This is a b/s concept and fallacy because admissions rates are *significantly* lower at ivy undergrads than at other institutions. That is, if only 8% of applicants, those with mostly 1550+ SAT (old SAT scoring system) make up the class, of course those are the people who are more likely to score A's than the community college 4.0'ers.

 

[solitude]

In fact, many people claim the opposite, that Ivies are notorious for grade inflation.

Before this erupts into a flame war, let's just all agree to disagree. Yes, there is grade inflation at *some* of the top undergrads. Yes, the average student is better at the top undergrads. Yes, there are good and even great students at other undergrads. How we interpret these facts to decide whether classes are "a ton harder" at one school vs. the other is a point that we will not agree on. This discussion has been attempted many times and in the end nobody changes their mind.

 

[loljkttyl]

Before this erupts into a flame war, let's just all agree to disagree. Yes, there is grade inflation at *some* of the top undergrads. Yes, the average student is better at the top undergrads. Yes, there are good and even great students at other undergrads. How we interpret these facts to decide whether classes are "a ton harder" at one school vs. the other is a point that we will not agree on. This discussion has been attempted many times and in the end nobody changes their mind.

I think we are somewhat digressing from the OP's initial question. Out of curiosity, does anyone actually know someone on an admissions committee that can definitely say if they do take into account an Ivy League undergrad education...and, if so, how much of a difference it makes?

 

[solitude]

I think we are somewhat digressing from the OP's initial question. Out of curiosity, does anyone actually know someone on an admissions committee that can definitely say if they do take into account an Ivy League undergrad education...and, if so, how much of a difference it makes?

Yes and a significant difference, at times. Generally a lower GPA will be less of an issue, although once you dip below the 3.5, 3.6 line (depending on the med school) you are not competitive no matter what your undergrad. One thing that people forget is that top undergrads know how to massage their applicants applications, and this can really help in the process. At my school, we have an entire committee that conducts mock-interviews, meets with applicants, discusses their personal statements, collects recommendations, etc. Most of the time this really helps out applicants, as the committee knows exactly what med schools are looking for. I believe that institutional application help is probably more important in getting kids from these schools into top undergrads than simply the reputation. With that said, the reputation goes a long ways (roughly .2 GPA points if I had to quantify the edge), at least with the adcom members that I know. Also, students from these schools have significantly higher average MCAT scores, which is another reason why they get more interviews at top med schools.

 

[riceman04]

I think we are somewhat digressing from the OP's initial question. Out of curiosity, does anyone actually know someone on an admissions committee that can definitely say if they do take into account an Ivy League undergrad education...and, if so, how much of a difference it makes?

I know someone on an admissions committee at a medical school and she says that school reputation is taken into account (not necessarily whether it is an Ivy or not...i.e. some public schools that are otherwise not considered as reputable by a lay person may be considered so by an adcom). Reputation is established by the current and past med students from a, b, c, etc... undergrad.
According to this person, school reputation is not weighed heavily at least at her school. However, she did say that its weight can change depending on the school and that some schools do consider undergrads at some schools more than others for various reasons.

Regarding the "ivies": she did say that some of grades received from these schools are weighted as highly as one would think b/c they are aware of the supposed grade inflation that does occur at a few of those schools.

Oh...and she said that her school and most others use an equation for determining interviews.

hope this helps

cya

 

[The Madden Bus]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot iharder in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

I don't like to put it this way, but I think it would be more accurate to say that most adcoms put more stock in gpas from top 25-50 range of universities than other universities. Basically what I'm saying is people from big time universities like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford (to demonstrate I'm not just talking about ivys) with gpas of 3.9+ will get in over people from state schools with 3.9+. You can see by the numbers that instituions from top25-50 have several applicants accepted to top medical programs, where a state school would be lucky to have 1 person from their school get accepted into a top medical program. And this isn't to insult people at a state school because I went to a state school for a year (SUNY Stony Brook), I'm just telling it like it is.

 

[pancarre12]

I think I can offer a valuable example here. I've yet to post my GPA and MCAT score on this site, since I, like most of you, am pretty disenchanted with people who come on here to brag about how great they are and to ask us to assess their chances at getting into Harvard. But I think the stats would serve a purpose now. I graduated last May with a 3.97 and a 37Q on the MCAT. One summer was spent tutoring disadvantaged students on campus, one summer REU research program at UConn, and some other at least average EC stuff. Yet I received only 6 interviews after 19 complete applications, with only ONE ivy league interview (at Dartmouth, and despite having applied to every one of them). US News' entire top 20 quite literally just ignored me; my undergrad was a 4th tier public liberal arts college.

Don't mistake this for complaining. I know where I'm going already... I've been accepted to a school that I really love, and given the chance I wouldn't even choose any of the ivies over it. But...I think you see my point: I'm convinced that undergrad prestige can be a huge factor.

 

[06applicant]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot iharder in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

I went to Yale, and have heard that an average of 97% of premeds get in somewhere. To help us choose which schools to apply to, our pre-med office has record books listing (for each med school) the GPA and MCAT score of Yale students previously accepted. When I thumbed through these last spring I saw a large number of successful applicants with low 3s (e.g. 3.1, 3.2), and even a few in the mid 2 range. They didn't get into the "best" schools, but they got in.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Woohoo my favorite topic! well, one of my fav. topics. it's right up there with the URM vs. ORM, and the DO vs. MD.

Rock on!

 

[MoosePilot]

Would the med school take into account that if the applicant comes from an ivy? Because the classes are a lot iharder in the ivies than many other schools, the GPA is most likely the biggest problem during admission. Any suggestions?

Obviously it doesn't translate to any skill recognizable in your writing. I'd be embarassed to see the average University of Oklahoma graduate writing like that.

 

[astrife]

I think I can offer a valuable example here. I've yet to post my GPA and MCAT score on this site, since I, like most of you, am pretty disenchanted with people who come on here to brag about how great they are and to ask us to assess their chances at getting into Harvard. But I think the stats would serve a purpose now. I graduated last May with a 3.97 and a 37Q on the MCAT. One summer was spent tutoring disadvantaged students on campus, one summer REU research program at UConn, and some other at least average EC stuff. Yet I received only 6 interviews after 19 complete applications, with only ONE ivy league interview (at Dartmouth, and despite having applied to every one of them). US News' entire top 20 quite literally just ignored me; my undergrad was a 4th tier public liberal arts college.

Don't mistake this for complaining. I know where I'm going already... I've been accepted to a school that I really love, and given the chance I wouldn't even choose any of the ivies over it. But...I think you see my point: I'm convinced that undergrad prestige can be a huge factor.

Seems to me like you are lacking int he EC's department. You didn't list any clinical experience, and they are probably looking for more than 1 summer of research at most of those top research intensive schools... Just my two cents though...

The acceptance rates at those schools is mostly under 10% which means that you not only have to have the numbers you have to have the EC's to back em up...

 

[relentless11]

I can't say specifically for Ivy League schools, but I know over here in CA our schools do look at what school you came from. I don't know what the exact extent, but an A from more competative schools is usually worth a tad more than an A from a less competative school. It is my impression that this sort of thing comes up around after interviews. Where two applicants have seemingly similar reviews from the adcoms. This might be something to tip into the favor of the one who is at the more "prestigious" school. But really, I think there is so much diversity among applicants this effect is probably minimized.

Anyway, whem comparing schools, I don't think there is much difference in the difficulty of classes between schools, at least among the schools in the UC system. But the student population they are measured up against at their specific school is a big factor in letter grades, along with their major.

Someone above already inferred to this, these schools tend to get the students with higher highschool GPA's and SAT scores. But one variable we must look at (among many others) is the undergraduate major. For instance, if a person got a A's in engineering classes from MIT, UC Berkeley or Cal Tech, vs. A's in engineering classes from a school not known for impacted engineering programs, then the its quite clear. Being graded on a curve in most classes a few things can happen. The curve is higher due to the quality of students, and/or the professor makes the test harder to get a better distribution. These two factors can make the class more challenging despite being taught the same thing as other schools.

I must emphasize that going to, and doing well at a prestigious school does not neccessarily equate to getting in...we all know this. These things probably play a bigger role in getting secondaries at schools that screen for GPA/MCAT, and getting interviews. Of course these are good things too

 

[BigRedZippo]

Yes, it makes a difference. No it won't overcome a 3.2. Do your best and you'll get in.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think I can offer a valuable example here. I've yet to post my GPA and MCAT score on this site, since I, like most of you, am pretty disenchanted with people who come on here to brag about how great they are and to ask us to assess their chances at getting into Harvard. But I think the stats would serve a purpose now. I graduated last May with a 3.97 and a 37Q on the MCAT. One summer was spent tutoring disadvantaged students on campus, one summer REU research program at UConn, and some other at least average EC stuff. Yet I received only 6 interviews after 19 complete applications, with only ONE ivy league interview (at Dartmouth, and despite having applied to every one of them). US News' entire top 20 quite literally just ignored me; my undergrad was a 4th tier public liberal arts college.

Don't mistake this for complaining. I know where I'm going already... I've been accepted to a school that I really love, and given the chance I wouldn't even choose any of the ivies over it. But...I think you see my point: I'm convinced that undergrad prestige can be a huge factor.

Your anecdote proves nothing except that certain schools thought that you were a poor fit for whatever reason. I don't agree that your undergrad had much to do with it. I'm sure there are just as many examples of state school attendees who *have* interviewed/been accepted to top twenty schools as there are who haven't. I'm one who has; I have always attended state schools, I have no undergrad GPA at all and a 3.5 grad GPA, and I was interviewed/accepted by several top twenty schools. Yeah, it helps that I did well on the MCAT, but it also helps that I plan to go into academic medicine and I have ten years of research experience, including clinical research. My anecdote proves nothing either, but I can tell you that if the med schools were evaluating me largely based on the prestige of my universities, I definitely wouldn't be "top twenty" material.

So what conclusions should people draw about this? Go to college wherever you think you can get a good education and do well. Participate in ECs that interest you. And when it comes time to apply to med school, pick schools where you fit their mission. Use the MSAR to pick schools, not US News. I agree with whomever said that many of the top twenty schools are very interested in students with research experience, but not exclusively. So don't do research unless you really want to do it.

 

[idkoop]

i google'd "harvard premed gpa" and found this

http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~eliot/Eliot_House/Info/PreMed_Man2000.html

scroll down about 80% of the page. apparently the average harvard senior that didn't get in had a 2.9 science gpa, and the avg alumni that didn't get in had a ~2.8. this was from 2000, which was a much harder app year than 2006. so one really has to **** up at harvard to not get into med school.

 

[mantraman1010]

Damn Ivy Leaguers!!!!

 

[gostudy]

One simple way to put this debate to rest is to present facts. Please examine pages 2 and 4 of the following link:

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2005Statistics.pdf

For matriculating applicants we can see that the BCPM of Princeton students that matriculate into med school is .2 behind the national BCPM average. For non-science GPA, Princeton students are .1 behind the nation non-science GPA for matriculating students. What grade inflation? The sciences at such schools are generally graded on a bell curve.

Page four shows us that greater than 90% of Princeton students get into medical school while the national average in around 50%.

So, does undergrad rep matter in the admissions process? To an extent. I believe once you get past many of the ivy-caliber schools, adcoms begin to assign less weight to your school's rep and rely more on your MCAT. For example, if you come from Princeton with a 3.4 the adcoms know the rigor and rep of Princeton undergrad. But if you come from Joe Blow U, the adcoms may be more unfamiliar with the curriculum and will look to the MCAT to validate your GPA (whatever it may be). And of course, Princeton students have a higher MCAT average than the national average, so that also balances out the GPA issue.

In conclusion, adcoms care a lot if you went to Ivy-type schools and a low GPA can be offset by the fact that you went to a prestigious school.

 

[ND2005]

One simple way to put this debate to rest is to present facts.

But statistics are rarely simple. You point to the fact that Princeton's average accepted GPA is .1 to .2 points lower than the national average for accepted students. But you then make the assumption that it is Princeton's reputation that overcomes this GPA deficit and makes the applicants desirable; you do not focus on the fact that the average Princeton MCAT is almost 2 points higher per section than the national average. The elevated MCAT scores seem a much more likely cause of Princeton students' admissions succsess than a nebulous consideration of reputation.

The reason Princeton (and other Ivy/top school candidates) have success likely has something to do with reputation, but not much. More of a factor is that the type of person who gains acceptance to a top undergrad is the type who, for whatever reason (high GPA, high SAT/MCAT, concert pianist...whatever) plays the admissions game well. They were desirable undergraduate applicants; unless they manage to screw up their lives while in college, they will likely be desirable medical school candidates as well.

 

[gostudy]

But statistics are rarely simple. You point to the fact that Princeton's average accepted GPA is .1 to .2 points lower than the national average for accepted students. But you then make the assumption that it is Princeton's reputation that overcomes this GPA deficit and makes the applicants desirable; you do not focus on the fact that the average Princeton MCAT is almost 2 points higher per section than the national average. The elevated MCAT scores seem a much more likely cause of Princeton students' admissions succsess than a nebulous consideration of reputation.

The reason Princeton (and other Ivy/top school candidates) have success likely has something to do with reputation, but not much. More of a factor is that the type of person who gains acceptance to a top undergrad is the type who, for whatever reason (high GPA, high SAT/MCAT, concert pianist...whatever) plays the admissions game well. They were desirable undergraduate applicants; unless they manage to screw up their lives while in college, they will likely be desirable medical school candidates as well.

Right. All those aspects are important. The point I'm making is that graduating from an Ivy-type school can make up for GPA deficiencies and can be the deciding factor between two otherwise equal applicants. A 3.4 from Princeton means a lot more than a 3.4 from Joe Blow U (even if the two applicants have identical MCATs). In addition, I hoped to dispell the grade inflation myth, as Princeton students are getting into medical school with lower GPAs than the average matriculant.

 

[JDWflash44]

Remember that when a school says that 90% of their students that apply get in, take that with a grain of salt because at many top schools students are discouraged from applying if they think the student may not get in or are borderline. Here at Hopkins, the pre-med committee pretty much tells them whether they can apply or not. But at my undergrad, UNH, the stats are that about 50% get in, but they support and push for anyone to try to get in.

Jim

 

[ahumdinger]

To the OP. I can't tell if you're currently at an ivy or if you're a high school student applying for college and want to know whether undergraduate education makes a difference.

If it's the former, and it's almost time for you to apply, then it doesn't matter what the answer to your question is. Apply with what you've got and hope for the best.

If you're trying to decide what college to go to, and you've been accepted to an ivy, go for it. An ivy league education will undoubtedly open up doors for you. But, you still have to excel once you get there. You can't just ride on the assumption that you'll be cut some slack because you go to an ivy, because like many have already said here, it's highly contestable whether an ivy education is more difficult. (I'm of the opinion that it is not) Another thing to consider is whether you love the school. If you choose harvard over another school that you absolutely adore, simply because it's harvard, you may find yourself having a difficult time there if it turns out that you hate harvard. You have to be happy and enjoying your studies to do well.

Good luck.

 

[Mr. Tee]

I gave up top 10 schools to go to my state school for undergrad? puh-leez....

People from my school go off to Harvard, JHU, Wash U., Michigan, Stanford, Yale, Cornell, etc. for medical school. Alot of it has to do with your personal abilities.