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I think med school's a little different though, because Penn Med has a very few full- and half-tuition merit-based scholarships.
Ivy League
- Thread starter bryante77
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I know about undergrad (they don not even give the National Merit money) but I think I heard something else about med schools. I will look into it.
BTW, this thread is reminding me of a favorite lightbulb joke..
How many Tufts students does it take to change a lightbulb?
Two- One to change the lightbulb and the other to say loudly how he did as well as an Ivy League Student........
BTW, this thread is reminding me of a favorite lightbulb joke..
How many Tufts students does it take to change a lightbulb?
Two- One to change the lightbulb and the other to say loudly how he did as well as an Ivy League Student........
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...since i'm sure i'm not the only one who will look up the rest of them: http://www.aaaugh.com/jokes/light_bulb_jokes.html
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Wow, a 4.3 GPA scale!I didn't know that grade inflation went to that level. With that and the 3.0 averages for curved classes, you can really get an incredibly high GPA at an Ivy league school. I guess the bar was even lower than I thought.
Wow what do you have against Ivies and why are you so bitter? No need to take it so personally, as for Cornell, that 4.3/A+ is more of a myth than a frequent occurrence. Most premed classes are curved to a C+/B- (back in my day at least) which is a 2.3-2.7. It's even worse because the A+ is such a tease. Lao is also right, when I was at Cornell the statistics are that if you had a 3.4+ GPA you had almost a 90% of getting in. You definitely could not say the same for most other colleges. As for premeds at Cornell with a GPA of 3.0-3.4 range, the % of acceptance varies year to year, usually hovering around the 50-70% range. The HCEC publishes these numbers in their premed manual yearly.
Also, Cornell premeds, by the time they make it to even applying have been HEAVILY selected, premeds drop like flies freshman and sophomore year there. It is simply intense. Let's put it this way, I knew somebody who took an embryology class, got a D+ (not because he didn't study, but the class was curved to a C- and the material was insanely difficult) and scored way above the national average on his/her boards.
I don't think it is necessary to put down any school or program as long as said individual worked hard, was honest and tried their best. I don't see anything wrong with state schools or any non-Ivy school and don't feel the need to put them down. I can only speak for Cornellians, but what I think most Cornell kids hate is when people make assumptions about the school without any background or knowledge. Cornell science departments = notorious grade DE-flation. Also, their Genetics course lab requirements are insane, and famous for requiring students to come in like every 12 hours into the lab to score flies (7 days a week), has 2-3 hour labs, an optional discussion session, 2 review sessions a week and 2, 2 hour lectures (if memory serves me right). I would challenge you to find any other UNDERGRAD genetics course that even comes close to the time required for the Cornell course.
Bottom line, everybody just needs to be respectful and courteous to each other, no need to bash anybody's school/alma mater/program.
To answer your queries:
#1. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you are trying to use an ad hominem attack against what I'm saying because my grammar is 'atrocious,' well then you're just exemplifying the kind of ivy league elitism I am talking about. But if you want to keep attacking me because of my grammar rather than acknowledge the points I have made, then by all means continue.
#2. Yes I have. The Fountainhead too. Have you read it? I've actually read many books with big, big scary words in them.
#3. Not everybody applying to college or medical school is 17 or 21, respectively. Beside the fact that I was talking about myself and not all 17 or 21 year olds, that wasn't the main point. The main point here, which nobody has addressed yet, is why is it acceptable for a board to determine the 'need' of some students to not have to borrow money to pay their own way, whereas other students are left to borrow and ultimately spend more on their education.
The concept of 'need' as a sole prerequisite for deserving something is a laugh. If we want to reward young adults from poor families in the form of reduced tuition, we should do it because they earned it by overcoming adversity and achieving high grades and scores (i.e., reward them based on their work). If we reward them solely on the fact that they are poor, what incentive would anyone have to do any more work than just the bare minimum to get admitted given that the payout is the same? And finally, if we want to institute a social welfare system to allow children of poor families to succeed (i.e., give money for special programs), we need to do that when they're children. It is of no use to admit one to college after he or she (wow, I used proper pronoun agreement!) has dropped out of school and become a gangbanger. Like I said before, once students have gotten to the point of submitting a competitive application to college or medical school, they have already overcome adversity. And I would truly like to believe that the programs we put in place for them as children allowed them opportunity to achieve on their own the same standards everyone is held to rather than just simply lowering requirements and cutting them breaks and allowing them to advance just for the sake of obtaining diversity. If the latter is the case (and I think it sometimes is), then that is just plain insulting.
What is this all about? Do we give need-based grants to children from poor families just because we feel bad that they had to grow up poor? Does that make them somehow more worthy of it and more worthy of a debt-free education? Even in spite of the fact that they are going to obtain the same high-paying job and lifestyle as everyone else? These are the real questions here. These are the questions nobody wants to have to think about regarding funding based on 'need,' and a question to which the administration has declared a prescribed and definite answer a very long time ago.
Is my grammar still atrocious? Maybe if I had gotten a 'need-based' scholarship to an ivy league school I wouldn't have been forced to communicate so embarrassingly for the rest of my life.
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Well, my reasons are the insane grade inflation that doesn't keep the playing field level. Also, I've been to several interviews at ivy league medical schools and each time I've noticed an arrogance in the staff and students. Of course, not all the staff and students act that way, but enough to make me not want to associate with the school. But, that is just a side reason. I really think that the GPA scale should be the same at every US school, even at MIT.
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All the ivy league haters should take chill pill. I don't see what all the drama's for. Why so bitter? It's not healthy.
Let's revisit some of the basics of college admissions for Ivy League schools. They are "need-blind," meaning financial status is not taken into consideration when students are applying. In essence, all students (rich and poor alike) need to have a certain level of scholastic and extracurricular achievement to be accepted to the school. No one is giving away Ivy acceptances to poor students who don't "match up" academically to students of other social classes.
Financial aid comes in after acceptances have been given out. Then, students whose families cannot afford to pay all or some of the costs of attending an Ivy are granted an appropriate amount of aid. This allows them to actually attend the school they have already been admitted to.*
Whoever said that was guaranteed? I have a couple friends at Ivies who want to go into teaching. That ain't gonna result in a "high-paying job and lifestyle."
True! So why do you think they should have to struggle through college as well?
*This is, of course, ignoring the fact that many financially-stable students are more likely to be admitted due to the increased opportunities available to them; e.g. college counseling, tutoring, or SAT prep.
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read LizzyM's post again...and think about it this time...
when you grade on a curve the grade you receive is relative to others in the class and in ivy league schools you are competing against the best of the best....each and every person in that class was one of the top students in their respective high school. so do you really think someone who does "average" work compared to the best and brightest kids in the nation should be given the same exact grade as another person who did "average" work compared to peers who are not particularly high achievers?
as i said before if there wasn't "grade inflation" at the ivy league schools (except for cornell....we get it, you can stop now) then attending one of these schools would be a huge disadvantage because your grades are allotted relative to the highest achieving students in the nation.
if you still think that "grade inflation" isn't justified then you are obviously have a vested interest in convincing yourself that ivy leaguers are somehow cheating their way into med school
also i'm assuming from your rant that you have withdrawn from every ivy league med school you have interviewed at? no way you'd want to be around all those pretentious, snobby ivy leaguers for the next four years right?
Ok, then explain to me the concept of URMs and how colleges take that into accout. Is it just a coincidence that URMs are usually the most 'needy'?
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The annual Harvard-Yale football game is a national treasure - the embodiment of the best in amateur sports. And Brian Dowling, the storied Yale quarterback became a character, BD, in the Doonesbury comic strip. And Princeton basketball and Bill Bradley and the Rhodes Scholarship. The campus architecture, the history, the ..... Ivy, my God, the Ivy, there is much to celebrate my friends. What is sadly lacking among American undergraduates is a sense of history.
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this is a COMPLETELY different topic and is in no way at all related or relevant. affirmative action is in no way unique to the ivy league schools nor do they practice it more than any other school.
you just went from making a bad argument to talking nonsense which leads me to do this.....
:troll:
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You are correct, I've withdrawn from every ivy league school i've interviewed at. I couldn't stand being around that type of environment for four years.
I don't believe that the ivy league schools have the brightest pre-meds in the country. Just because they did good on their SATs? Many of us did great on our SATs, but really now, the SAT is an incredibly easy test when you put it in comparison to upper level biology courses and the MCAT. I am pretty confident that any student who gets into medical school could have done great on the SAT, so I don't think you can justify grade inflation by the SAT scores. Plus, most Biology majors that have made it to their senior year successfully have mostly done great on their SATs (at least the ones I know). So, my point is that there isn't much difference in the intelligence of an upper level biology class at my university compared to an ivy league school, so the grade inflation isn't justified.
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The 4.3 scale is worthless in medical school admissions. When AMCAS generates your GPA, it counts an A+ and an A as a 4.0, therefore your GPA gets recalculated to lower than it would be on a 4.3 scale (assuming you had A+s). So the argument is pointless.
Grade "inflation" at schools varies by school, class, and professor. If a class isn't curved, then everyone could theoretically get an A if their test grades were high enough, and they could all fail if they did very poorly. I don't see how that's necessarily a negative thing. If everyone is getting 90s, why shouldn't they all get As? I've been curved DOWN (ie, got a 90+ and still got a B) before and that really pissed me off, and I can imagine that anyone would be in a similar situation. When schools report that a significant number of their students get As and Bs, it's not necessarily because their grades are being "inflated", it just means that their students are performing well. Sure, one could argue that the tests are too "easy", but perhaps the students just ARE that smart (as one would imagine at an Ivy). It's also ridiculous to go around claiming that the Ivy schools are the only ones with grade "inflation". I mean, really, is the average of EVERY class at EVERY other school a C? I doubt it.
Grade "inflation" at schools varies by school, class, and professor. If a class isn't curved, then everyone could theoretically get an A if their test grades were high enough, and they could all fail if they did very poorly. I don't see how that's necessarily a negative thing. If everyone is getting 90s, why shouldn't they all get As? I've been curved DOWN (ie, got a 90+ and still got a B) before and that really pissed me off, and I can imagine that anyone would be in a similar situation. When schools report that a significant number of their students get As and Bs, it's not necessarily because their grades are being "inflated", it just means that their students are performing well. Sure, one could argue that the tests are too "easy", but perhaps the students just ARE that smart (as one would imagine at an Ivy). It's also ridiculous to go around claiming that the Ivy schools are the only ones with grade "inflation". I mean, really, is the average of EVERY class at EVERY other school a C? I doubt it.
Keep telling yourself that. It's easier not to think about it I guess.
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Harvard can fill 2 full classes of freshman each year with 800s on the SATs, if they wanted to do so. But they don't. The students at Harvard have far more going for them than test scores.
and one does "well" not "good" on a test.
I call troll on the "i withdrew from all the ivies that interviewed me." do you really expect us to believe that all your Ivy-bashing is based on your med school interview days? To believe that you had an epiphany at each of these schools that caused you to recoil in disgust at the horror and withdraw?
Your Ivy-envy is far too deep and raw to be a product of recent med school interviews. (if you really had such interviews.)
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I've been ignoring this thread for days now and I've finally decided to click. Don't worry, I haven't read any of it. However, based on the number of replies I'm sure that many of the posters in this thread need to chill the **** out.
relax,
[youtube]phSFDPRvif4[/youtube]
-Yoda out
relax,
[youtube]phSFDPRvif4[/youtube]
-Yoda out
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All I have done is stated how I feel and what I've done. I may not have the same point of view as you, but that doesn't instantly mean that I am a liar. The arrogance that you have about this whole debate is insane. I admit that I have met some nice and down to earth people on my interviews at ivy league schools, but I consistently noticed that there was just a feel of arrogance from certain people there. I've always felt that the whole grade inflation thing was unfair, but that wasn't enough for me to decide to withdraw from those schools. The way that I didn't feel like I fit with the school, made me withdraw. I had no idea that the stereotypes about ivy league schools was true to an extent. If I had known that the schools would be like that, then I wouldn't have applied in the first place.
This discussion about Ivy league schools has taken place many times before, so I obviously am not the only person who believes what I believe. I am certainly not trying to convince you to take my stance either. I'm just stating it. But, I am also not calling you a troll or calling you ignorant. I completely understand why some people like ivy league schools and feel comfortable there, I just don't think the grade inflation is fair and I don't feel comfortable spending time with people who think they are better than every one else. Let me say again, that I know there are many people at ivy league schools who are not arrogant, but that was the general feeling that I got.
Finally, I am not writing an essay for you to grade, so I am not going to re-read and edit everything that I type, so spare me the grammar corrections.
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Let me see if I understand what's been said here:
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, Princeton and Yale have grade inflation that is not present at other prestigious institutions of higher learning such as Duke, Washington University and Stanford. This grade inflation is unfair.
Some students, faculty and staff at the medical schools at Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Darmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, and Yale are arrogant and unpleasant to be around. These attitudes are not present at any other high ranking medical schools in the country.
The original question related to the likelihood of being admitted to medical school if you attend an Ivy-league school for undergrad. The consensus appears to be that yes, students who graduate from these schools have a better chance than the average medical school applicant to be admitted to medical school. It must be the grade inflation and not the fact that these schools admit some of the country's brightest high school graduates without regard for ability to pay.
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, Princeton and Yale have grade inflation that is not present at other prestigious institutions of higher learning such as Duke, Washington University and Stanford. This grade inflation is unfair.
Some students, faculty and staff at the medical schools at Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Darmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, and Yale are arrogant and unpleasant to be around. These attitudes are not present at any other high ranking medical schools in the country.
The original question related to the likelihood of being admitted to medical school if you attend an Ivy-league school for undergrad. The consensus appears to be that yes, students who graduate from these schools have a better chance than the average medical school applicant to be admitted to medical school. It must be the grade inflation and not the fact that these schools admit some of the country's brightest high school graduates without regard for ability to pay.
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Fair enough. I apologize.
I think a more important question you need to ask is how fair is this grade inflation when compared against Cal, University of Virgina, UCLA and other Top public school students.
People who get into the top private schools are people who are just impressive in LIFE, not just academically. These are the people who are going to do big things in the world and I understand this is the case.
Even though they are all intelligent people, they are not ALL geniuses. They may have a very strong drive and what not, but being that they are not all geniuses its not fair that the schools average gpa is between B+/A- (like Harvards) when the Top public schools set their averages to a C/C+.
I think what should be done is that top public schools should start inflating their grades and the top private schools should just keep their grades inflated based on their current arguments that these kids are all A students.
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OK, let's compare the students at UCLA with Yale.
UCLA, 2004 SAT scores: mean verbal: 628 mean math: 662
median was between 600-699
http://www.aim.ucla.edu/data/students/fall/StudentProfile.Fall2004.pdf
Yale, 2004, SAT scores: median Verbal: 750 median Math: 740
90% of Yale freshman matriculants in 2004 had SATs >650.
http://www.yale.edu/oir/open/pdf_public/W032_Fresh_SATs.pdf
Is setting the same curve at both schools really fair?
I guess setting the same curve isnt really fair then,
but let me ask you this, if a public school student gets into an Ivy medical school, seeing how Ivy medical schools consist mainly of Ivy students, would you encourage that person into attending or would the competition be too much.
Also do you think that the students that make up UCSF and UCLA's medical schools are comparable to those from the Ivy's seeing how these two schools are ranked among the top ten, but Ivy medical schools have mostly Ivy students and UC medical schools have mainly california students.
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Where do you get this idea? Cornell has 101 M1 students from 51 different undergrad institutions. There are only 8 Ivies. Maybe 51 students come from the 8 Ivies and the other 50 students come from 43 different non-ivies? That doesn't seem likely but then again, perhaps 7 students matriculating from each of 8 top schools in the northeast -- I suppose it is not imposible.
The schools are very similar. Do keep in mind, too, that California residents who attended Ivy League for undergrad are counted as California residents by UCSF med school.
http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/admissions/acc_cla_com.html
http://medschool.ucsf.edu/admissions/profile.aspx
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By the way, the 2008 winners of the Ancient Eight Championship (don't you love that name?? ) in football were Brown and Harvard !!!
This was the third IVY title for Brown in the last 10 years!!
Ivy haters, bite me.
This was the third IVY title for Brown in the last 10 years!!
Ivy haters, bite me.
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Maybe slightly off topic, but I just want to say that it's nice to see that many public schools are ranked higher than some Ivy league schools when it comes to medical school (by US NEWS). UCSF, University of Washington, and UCLA are ranked pretty high in research. Also, the primary care ranking shows many more public schools. So, I don't think that numbers represent everything.
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....no.
I meant Ivy med schools have mostly top private school kids, but I was in a rush while writing it and mixed it up.
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Didn't Brown also get suspended from Ivy League athletics a few years ago for ILLEGALLY giving athletic scholarships?
just sayin.
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http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/1999-00/99-111.html
It was not "illegal" but contrary to league rules.
It was not athletic scholarships from the school but permitting student athletes to use money from outside sources available only to athletes to offset what would otherwise be the family/student contribution. Basically, if a booster club (alumni and fans) wanted to slip an athlete some greenbacks, it shouldn't be allowed under league rules.
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What about private non-ivy schools?...such as Harvey Mudd?
Harvey Mudd, 2004 SAT scores: median verbal 720 median math 770
Harvey Mudd also has essentially no grade inflation and minimal recognition off the west coast, though it's improving.
That being said, I don't think SAT scores really tell all that much, I've been at both Ivy and non-ivies and there's an awful lot of kids that aren't that bright at the ivies but their parents have had them prepped since childhood for the tests and applications. Comparing the quality of work and students I've seen, being at an Ivy league school does NOT in any way imply that you are either brilliant or hard working. Yes, there's some really smart people there that work hard, but there's also a whole lot of people that are there because their parents did whatever it took to get their kids there. Maybe back in the day it somehow implied a better caliber of student or a superior education, but I don't believe that's the case now...at least not for the majority of the students there.
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northwestern (feinberg) will consider you independent for school-funded need-based aid if you have been supporting yourself for 30 months and can document it with W2s and tax returns. So that's nice for non-trads like me.
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Harvey Mudd is a real bad ass school for math and engineering geniuses. The problem with Harvey Mudd is the name, Harvey Mudd. Seriously, who wants to go to a school named Harvey Mudd. Zero sex appeal, and probably zero sex at Harvey Mudd. That said, it is a really good school.
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So, what about them? Harvey Mudd is little known but has one of the highest average MCAT scores among undergrad schools. Adcoms know that it is a highly ranked school with minimal grade inflation.
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I think searun is onto something here. The encyclopedia definition of "Ivy League" is completely different from the public perception of the term, and people here on this forum are getting too caught up with the encyclopedia definition.
Yes, if you look up Encyclopedia Brittanica you will see that the Ivy League consists of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, U of Penn, and Columbia. But as far as the public is concerned, few people are even aware of the "lower ivies." Only Harvard, Yale, and Princeton embody the prestige of the ivy league along with Stanford and MIT. In a sense, the world has moved beyond the strict definition of the term and now uses it to describe the creme de la creme of academic powerhouses. Ironically, the lower ivies no longer have the cachet that lives up to the ivy league name because the league has become more prestigious than the school itself.
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huh?? minimal grade inflation at harvey mudd? so an average gpa of 3.3 isn't inflated? my uni's avg was 3.2 last semester, im wondering if that is considered inflated..so what range constitutes inflation? and if you don't mind me asking, what would you consider a high mcat average for a school? low thirties?
northwestern (feinberg) will consider you independent for school-funded need-based aid if you have been supporting yourself for 30 months and can document it with W2s and tax returns. So that's nice for non-trads like me.
I stand corrected. But it still seems silly to consider someone for need-based aid considering the fact that most all students are going to make an income of zero dollars while in school. What do they want you to do, withdrawl your 401(k) money to meet your EFC?
I still maintain the 'need' of all medical students that would otherwise be borrowing the full amount is the same. This business about parent's income is just silly.
All I know is that if the government decides to nationalize healthcare, then they better damn well fund medical student training as well. The hell if students are going go into the government's debt for the privilege of being their puppets. That has disaster written all over it, which seems to be the theme of our once great nation these days.
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Do you know what the word minimal means?
Harvey Mudd has a relatively low average gpa. Happy now?
I consider a high average MCAT to be anything over 31.9. On my list of ~140 schools that have a significant number of applicants to med school, 18 have MCAT total scores >31.9. Seven of those schools are Ivies.
Reed College seems to have no grade inflation. It is on my list with a 3.21 gpa compared with 3.40 for Mudd and an avg MCAT >31.9
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OMG PromisingCapita you're an enormous tool. Weren't you kicked off these boards for your highly inappropriate tirades in the WashU thread? Like this one, your posts there reeked of insecurity. The acronym (fair or unfair as its widespread usage may be) is HYP, so for you to singlehandedly add to it indicates that you must attend either "S" or "M". Don't get me wrong- there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of those places and I'm not trying to suggest that they're inferior, but it just really irks me that you insist on lumping them together with H, Y, and P. My guess is that you attend "M" and that going to school down the street from "H" really gets your goat. Reminds me of an exchange I once heard between two grad classmates:
MIT Grad (to Harvard grad): At MIT we always used to talk about how easy the physics classes at Harvard are compared to MIT.
Harvard Grad (in response): Oh really? We never talked about MIT at all.
Kinda sums up this thread entirely, doesn't it? Clearly there's something about the "Ivy League" that makes people want to talk about it. Haters, ask yourselves this: if given the chance, would you transfer to an Ivy League school? If you answer yes, than you've lost the right to rail against the alleged unfairness of the system, since you're freely admitting that you'd use it to your benefit if given the chance. If you answer no, than you obviously think there's something better about your institution than an Ivy, which should be enough for you to drop your insecurities and QUIT WHINING. Maybe the system is unfair, maybe it isn't - one thread on SDN isn't going to change anything...
Funny I never thought of the 8 traditional schools. To me, that term means any overly selective school and invokes elitist sentiments. I think that most of the public would consider a school like Stanford an 'ivy league' school.
which school didn't make the cut?
Haha, now we all want to know.
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Ah, Reed College, regarded by many as the most intellectual college in America. I almost applied to Reed when I was a high school senior. But then I discovered that almost all of the Reed students smoked cigarettes and the campus was devoid of athletes, and, of course, cheerleaders. The unexamined life is not worth living, but some would argue that a life without cheerleaders also is not worth living. But Reed College is serious about a classical education and told U.S. News and World Reports college rankings to stick it, an admirable gesture.
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I don't see how it can possibly offend you that I have lumped S and M with HYP. Most people who hear the name Stanford or MIT consider them more prestigious than any of the lower ivies. HYPSM are peer schools whether you like it or not and their SAT averages, acceptance rates, etc are all roughly the same. This is in stark contrast to the lower ivies which have higher acceptance rates, lower SAT scores, and lower prestige.
My post was just there to say that the term ivy league has evolved over time. It is no longer seen as the original 8 schools but more as a metric of excellence in the public's mind. And HYPSM is more likely to be considered ivy league than schools like U of Penn or Cornell. In any case, ask yourself this: do any of the HYPSM schools use the ivy league association as a crutch to boost their prestige? The short answer is no. They are stand alone schools that rely solely on their own reputation. The lower ivies do benefit from their association with the league and do not generally rely on their own reputation.
Example:
Philly: I go to the U of Penn
Job interviewer: Oh, great football team.
Philly: It's in the ivy league.
Job interviewer: Oh nice, let me tell you more about our company.
Same experience. Went from mostly Bs to all As with no minuses attached. CRAZINESS.
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Well, it shows ignorance of history.
HYP started as a short-hand to describe a three way athletic rivalry in the late eighteenth century among the three oldest schools in the country: Harvard (1636), Yale (1701) and Princeton (1746). This pre-dates the "Ivy League" althletic league which was born in the mid-twentieth century.
In comparison, MIT and Stanford were founded in the mid-eighteenth century and have not been known for their athletic competitions nor for the admission and employment of WASPs, two things historically associated with HYP.
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I really don't understand all the comments on grade inflation just because a university has an average GPA that's higher than a C. A C is only "average" if you're grading on a curve, but often schools use a grading system in which a 90-100 is some form of an A, 80-89 is a B, etc. Sure there are classes where the class average is like a 50 and the class needs to be curved so that everyone doesn't get an F. But if I see an "A" on a transcript, I assume that the person got more than 90% of questions right on tests, etc. I don't assume that they were in the whatever percentile of the class. Maybe that's just me... but if that's the case, it is totally acceptable for the Ivy League schools to have averages that are around a high B - those students are LIKELY performing at a level where they get MOST things right. And don't tell me that the tests are EASIER than less competitive schools, because it's not true.
