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Jesuit and Christian University and Colleges

Discussion in 'Pre-Pharmacy' started by Pharmdapp87, Dec 9, 2008.

  1. Pharmdapp87

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    Hope this topic doesn't offend anyone...

    So, even after I have already submitted my Pharmcas Application I am still wondering whether or not I should have applied to schools such as Palm Beach Atlantic and/or Creighton University. They were originally at the top of my list, Creighton more so because it is known for its clinical curriculum. However, when I realized PBA was a nondenominational christian school and Creighton was Jesuit I began to panic and ultimately decided not to apply there. Why? To be honest I am a baptist and quite spiratual, but this of course is not the problem...

    I remembered a couple years back I ran into an article that baffled me. A male student was ejected from a university in the states after his Myspace profile read that he was gay. Being a gay male, this actually scares me. The worse part about it is that the state had an antidiscrimination policy but the school had an anti-gay policy as well. I really don't want to apply to a school that isn't accepting of my orientation, especially when it has nothing to do with my ability to perform as a student or professional. Half the time people don't even know until I exchange with them the information. 99% of the time I get a "Wow, didn't see that one coming. I don't care". Either way it's very discomforting to know that even if I get into one of the colleges above that I could be expelled just because of who I like. If the school doesn't want me, then so be it, I don't want to go there anyway. However, I was wondering if anyone knew any information about the christian and Jesuit pharmacy schools and their policies on homosexual men and women.

    My ex has told me that it shouldn't matter, and that it should be treated as "Don't ask don't tell," but I really do not want to attend a school that wouldnt want "my kind" there in the first place. I would just like to know if it's even worth the money because I do not want to end up like that pharmacy student. Thanks guys for taking the time out to read this post, any and all information is accepted.
     
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  3. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    I can say with 110% certainty that neither religious preference nor sexual orientation doesn't deny an application. We have one woman who is homosexual in our class, and we have many who are neither religious at all or who are not Jesuit. In fact, they told us at orientation that most of the professors at Creighton aren't Jesuit, and they have NO pharmacy instructors who are Jesuit. Jesuits are on the decline, apparently.

    Creighton is big on Ignatian values and how those fit in to your life and how you act especially as a medical professional. Also, Creighton does welcome diversity in each class, no matter what type of diversity (age, gender, former professions, above, etc, etc, etc). The admissions committee is very open minded :)
     
  4. Kirbypuff

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    OMG which school expelled someone based on their sexuality? Was it strictly an expulsion based exclusively on homosexuality or did that person do something wrong and they also happen to be gay? I'm imagining someone who does something very bad and their sexual orientation is what makes the headlines..or worse, they do something minor, but because of their sexuality they get expelled. Regardless, I completely understand your choices to avoid certain schools. I avoid certain schools that don't have many minorities because I don't ever want to feel discriminated against. Although in the end, I think we both just want our PharmD's no matter where we get it. At least you can hide your sexuality; I can't hide my race. :hungover:
     
  5. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    I'd like to see that article because that certainly seems to be a violation of anti-discrimination laws (which I believe would trump the policy of the school). The only case I can see the school having is if the student signed a pledge or something upon entrance agreeing to abide by certain policies and then failed to do so (my step-son's Christian high school requires this and one of their policies is not to practice homosexuality - I don't agree with this, but I'm just the step-mom and despite my loud protests, it has failed to move his biological mother - anyway, I suppose they could expel him from school if he violated that "contract").

    I personally don't think you would have had any issues at Creighton (we certainly didn't have to sign anything saying we weren't gay!) and I don't believe they use the Jesuit principles as a cloak for discrimination.

    If I were you, I would have still applied there and made my determination based on how I felt after the interview (you could always turn them down). I understand you need to do what makes you comfortable, but I suspect you will find bigoted people regardless of the school you choose to attend (of course, a bigoted person is slightly different than a bigoted university, but hopefully you know what I mean!).
     
  6. Pharmdapp87

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    Yeah if you read the article they come right out and say the school does have an anti-gay policy. it's a baptist school so I'm not that surprised... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12394904
    But yeah, I know how you feel about your race too, I'm double minority (tripple if you look at the statistics), so it's very "easy" for me to be the target of racism and discrimination.
     
  7. Pharmdapp87

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    I completely agree and understand it! I really wanted to apply there in the first place but I guess I was just thinking money-wise what would be the best choice for me. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12394904... that's the article web address. I don't know about the "contract", but the state was battling with them over the situation because of the fact that they had anti-gay policies and the state had anti-discrimination laws... ultimately, I think she school lost funding and the pharmacy school is no more....
     
  8. Kirbypuff

    Kirbypuff Worldling
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    Well then, you're safe! If a pharmacy school in Kentucky is no more from expelling a gay student, then I'm sure all pharmacy schools will take that as a lesson.
     
  9. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    Wow - very interesting article - I don't remember hearing about it at the time. It almost sounded like the university president tried to make it out like it was about sex outside of marriage and not sexual orientation - that's a pretty tough sell, IMHO.
     
  10. Pharmdapp87

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    Yeah I was a bit confused about him trying to side with sex outside of marriage as well but then I realized there are numerous individuals who feel that way.
     
  11. apteryx

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    This isn't a personal attack, I honestly don't care about anyone's preference, but I'm just confused; you're Baptist, but you're gay? The Bible condemns homosexuality, so I'm not seeing the connection here...

    And that is a rotten thing to expel someone for being gay. Not really a Christian attitude there. Just because Christians don't condone homosexuality it doesn't mean they can't associate with them. Schtoopid people.
     
  12. PrepharmKID

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    Well the thing is they should be able to set their own policies. I think it's dumb, but they have every right to do that and enforce them. That student went into the situation knowing he was not following their policies.

    I know of a different christian school that has kicked out students for having pre-maritial sex. Those students went there knowing they would be attending under those guidelines and they did not follow them.

    BUT i would like to say, i could care less what people are into, so long as it isn't illegal and they dont throw it in my face. You could say you're in love with aliens for all I care, just dont dont tell me stories. lol.

    I think this happened with gays in the boy scouts a while back. Don't remember how that really turned out though.
     
  13. Pharmdapp87

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    I should probably clarify, I was raised baptist and that's kinda what I identify with the most. I interpret the bible differently then most people. I do believe in God, and often times I find myself confused myself, but it's all a matter of me being more spiritual than religious.
     
  14. YiYaoYue

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    I am sad to see so much intolerance... from both sides (religion and secular).
     
  15. Sparda29

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    That's a pretty piss poor reason to expel someone, and any school with that kind of policy should immediately lose their accreditation.

    Firebombs and Molotov Cocktails work well for these situations :mad:
     
  16. PrePharmD

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    I hope you're joking... Fight hate with more hate?? That a way!
     
  17. apteryx

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    Just a little bit of sarcasm, I'm sure.
     
  18. Pharmdapp87

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    Yeah, I hope it's sarcasm lol.
     
  19. Jdario86

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    In my opinion, it irks me how jesuit/christian schools try to embed religion in course curriculums in order instill morals within aspiring pharmacists.

    I think there's no place for religion in a pharmacy setting. It's completely unprofessional.
     
  20. evilolive

    evilolive Member
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    I don't agree. I think that religious values can augment peoples' abilities to be health care professionals, especially when it comes to empathy. I believe that people see the extreme opposites on this side of the coin instead of both at the same time. The difference lies in the practice and whether or nor those values impede with standards of pharmacy. A religious pharmacist who stands up for what he believes in is no more wrong than another pharmacist who does not share those values and makes the same decision. It's ultimately the objective practice that counts for the patient as established by law/code of ethics.
     
  21. Jdario86

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    Yes-However, problems arise when people confuse morals with ethical standards. Just because someone believes in something to be morally right doesn't necessarily mean it's ethically right. I think there are certain morals from religions that conflict with general ethical standards within the health profession. So it presents a compromising situation because morals vary from religion to religion.

    Don't get me wrong-i'm not against people believing what they want-as long as they don't parade their beliefs in a professional clinical setting.
     
  22. evilolive

    evilolive Member
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    True, and that can also be said about professional practice in general. Everything is subjective to professional opinion, and the question is whether or not the community as a whole deems it acceptable...
     
  23. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    Creighton (the only Jesuit pharmacy school out there) does NOT embed religion in their curriculum. We do, however, embed morals / values, which is a good thing, not a bad thing! I bet all pharmacy schools talk about doing the best thing for the patient, treating the whole patient, etc.

    Before you make judgements about programs, enlighten yourself, don't assume.
     
  24. Sparda29

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    Contrary to what a lot of schools say, we should treat the disease, not the patient.
     
  25. evilolive

    evilolive Member
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    That's what doctors used to think when they implemented their code of ethics the rules of emotional detachment. It didn't seem to work out so well.
     
  26. Jdario86

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    I'm sorry-but do you think it's also judgemental for a school to judge people on their ignatian values?

    That's kinda jumping the gun because not everyone has ignatian values or is christian. Some are muslim, jewish, etc. And it doesn't mean they lack morals either. I understand that the school is open-minded and accept non-christians. But asking someone that type of question clearly caters to a specific religion group and can deter non-christian/non-religious candidates from applying.

    I just think that question should just be re-worded so there's no confusion about the school's open-minded policy.
     
  27. pharmky

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    They were never a pharmacy school. They tried, but the state wouldn't give them the funding. As the article said, they would never get accreditation with that kind of policy.
     
  28. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    What question are you referring to?
     
  29. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    No - I don't think it's judgmental. Creighton makes no secret that they are a Jesuit institution. And personally, I perceive Ignatian values as less about any religion and more about how to treat people in general. I also think that learning about them in context of pharmacy practice will help me be a more compassionate practitioner. I personally believe it's possible to treat the patient AND the disease, but that's just me.

    And if the idea of learning about Ignatian values to any extent turns an applicant off from applying, so be it - just as the OP decided it might make them uncomfortable. I respect and understand that thinking, but from first-hand experience, I can say that I have not felt uncomfortable not being Catholic or Jesuit as a Creighton student. Each person has to apply to the schools that appeal to them - Creighton offered me things that other programs couldn't, hands down - and I'm not the least bit religious (I don't attend church or identify with a specific religion anyway).

    I'm also not sure which question you are referring to?
     
  30. Jdario86

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    1. This was posted on SDN back in october 10 by someone who was applying and had accessed to the online supplemental questions.

      And I think a "so be it..." response to someone who turns away from a school because they feel uncomfortable with the religious atmosphere is sorta disconcerting. It sounds like apathy to me. I think a pharmacy school should foster diversity, culture and studying with students of different religious backgrounds.
     
  31. Jdario86

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    And i think Sparda was trying to imply that PharmD's, MD's etc. are licensed to treat patients through medicine/clinical practice. Healing the patient spiritually should be left to the priests, rabi, monks, etc.

    If a patient is requesting the spiritual healing of God, call a priest to the bedside.
     
  32. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    "So be it" was not apathy and did not deter them from applying to Creighton. The person writing the post is in the CU Class of 2011. Sounds more like they are saying that if it comes right down to it, do what you feel is best for yourself. You have many options.

    How would YOU reword the question at hand?

    Also, no one said that other religions are not morally correct. To each their own.

    As well, if you re-read the posts, Creighton classes have students of all religions and non-religions, standard types and non-so-standard types, etc. You'll find it all here, along with people who are compassionate, kind, and care for the whole patient (which is what the Ignatian values get at).

    If you don't like it, SO BE IT - find another place you think is best for yourself.
     
  33. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    OK - I understand which question you are talking about from the Creighton supplemental. I guess I just don't understand what the issue is? Creighton is a Jesuit school - it is a fundamental principle that guides much of what they believe in as an institution. Some people may not agree with it, which is OK - not everyone has to agree about everything.

    And I think the point of many of the previous posts has been that Creighton DOES value diversity. However, they aren't going to the change the mission of the University because some people may not be comfortable attending a Jesuit institution - they would expect those people not to apply there and to attend a school where they DO feel comfortable. Not every school is made for every person - even if you take religion out of the equation entirely.

    I turned away from many schools for a variety of reasons, but I don't expect those schools to change the things about them that I didn't like - instead, I found a school that DID give me what I liked. I'm not apathetic, but I guess because I see first-hand that Creighton is NOT discriminatory in any way, shape, or form it is difficult for me to fully appreciate your argument against them. I would think that someone would give them a chance to prove themselves prior to judging them...just as you would want them to give you a chance to prove yourself before judging you.

    ETA: Did you apply to Creighton? Are you familiar with the Ignatian values? I only ask because I had to look them up before I answered that question on the supplemental. As I stated in a previous post, I'm neither Catholic nor overly religious and I was pretty nervous about attending a "religious" institution. Thus far, my experience with spirituality at Creighton (mostly all voluntary) has been positive and enriching - it has driven me to try and become a better person, not just a better practitioner.
     
    #32 ajh88, Dec 11, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  34. Pharmdapp87

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    Look, regardless of where you receive your education, implementation of the school's beliefs are always going to be apparent. In the case of treating patients the physician, nurse, pharmacist, etc. will have to separate their beliefs in order to not breach the code of ethics provided. I don't see anything wrong with a Jesuit/Christian school implementing their ideas into their curriculum so long as it does not interfere with carrying out the work respectably or effectively (ie a pharmacist who opposes the idea of selling birth control pills to young women should put her ideas aside and carryout what the doctor prescribed because it is not her choice...). If I were getting surgery done and a nudist walked into the room and the nurse said he was the best of the best, then I could care less. It's not about this person's personal life (religious, nudist, etc.) it's about how well he/she can perform their job. It's all about perception and how one chooses to handle situations, whether it's with religious solutions or not.
     
  35. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    Sorry for the thread hijack - I really hope you find a school where you feel comfortable and it does make me sad to see the intolerance displayed in the article you posted. Best of luck to you! :luck:
     
  36. Pharmdapp87

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    Oh no no no, its quite alright. It's actually an interesting conversation. I can see both sides of the argument because I've witnessed things from both points of views. I just had 2 cents to throw in hehe. But thanks I really appreciate it. I think I'll find a nice school to go to:) though, just gotta get to the interview. Good lucj to you too!:luck:
     
  37. PrePharmD

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    It should be every healthcare provider's right to not have to compromise their own religious beliefs. Catholics are easily persecuted because such persecution is so widely accepted. If on the other hand, we were asking someone to take of their hijab because it made other people uncomfortable, that would be unacceptable. If filling birth control prescriptions is against the pharmacist's religion, they have every right to have the patient go somewhere else for their prescription. Freedom of religion cannot be compromised, even in the workplace. If we are not respectful of other people's beliefs, how can we expect others to be respectful of our own (including values regarding homosexuality)?
     
  38. evilolive

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    The problem with pharmacists refusing to dispense RU486 are that there are areas where there is only one pharmacy within an x-mile radius. Demanding that people go to other pharmacies will compound this problem, especially if multiple pharmacists share this perspective. While it is important to balance a health care professional's morals with one's own ethics, it's ultimately the patient that needs the care most, not necessarily the provider's peace of mind. If that patient does not get the care she needs, there is ultimately more harm done in the eyes of the law because someone is denied care based off of a personal principle - not necessarily a professional one. The code of ethics, the convenental relationship and the oath of Maimionides that you take when you become a pharmacist/pharmacy student says that patients always comes first. Even though I understand why pharmacists would refuse to dispense RU486, I think that should be the last word when it comes to this particular controversy - it is one of the sacrifices you make when you become a trusted health care professional.
     
    #37 evilolive, Dec 11, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  39. Jdario86

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    The potential and inherent problem with exercising religious right in a professional clinical setting justifies scenarios where clinicians to hold back from providing health-care service to people who need it (i.e. refusing to provide care to a patient because they're gay and it goes against their beliefs). Again, this is another scenario where people confuse morals with ethical standards and crosses the line of professionalism. That type of action is not only ethically wrong-because it goes against the hippocratic oath and maimionides oath-but it's also discrimination and NOT PROFESSIONAL.

    Plus, that type of reasoning lets schools, like the one in Kentucky, to discriminate against homosexuals. I strongly believe that everyone has the right to believe whatever religion they want, as long as their beliefs are not imposed on others.

    .I understand where you’re trying to get at with learning and accepting other people’s beliefs. But the pharmacy is no place to do it. You do that at Chicago’s World fair and practice pharmacy at a pharmacy-not religious rights. .According to the Maimionides oath, patients come first -not personal religious convictions. This is why I believe religion has no place in a professional clinical setting.
     
    #38 Jdario86, Dec 12, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  40. xscpx

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    Thank you for this post. I planned on applying to Creighton, having no idea of its religious affiliation. I have only read their page with the pharmacy school information. I liked the whole distance pharmd program.

    Does anyone know if you can decline to answer a question like the one posted? (for the supp) If not, how do you answer a question that makes an assumption of faith if you don't have one? i pretty much despise organized religion as a whole (i'm a product of catholic school) so i do not associate myself with any religion. (although i respect other's beliefs, i am an anthropologist by trade, i just choose not to associate with a religion) How could I possibly go about answering a question that assumes that I believe in this "god" and such? I'm quite confused....I wasn't aware that religious orientation could have an effect on admittance to school.
     
  41. fenixtnlfan

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    I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, so try searching for it. The gist of it wasn't how the Ignatian values related to a "god" but rather how you related to them and how they would make you a better person. I remember them being pretty broad (like say compassion) so really anyone could relate to them.
     
  42. ajh88

    ajh88 New Member
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    https://people.creighton.edu/~abs40223/ignatian_values.htm

    Hopefully this link works OK - I wouldn't take it as a be all, end all on Ignatian values but I found it to be a pretty nice little summary.

    I suppose you could choose not to answer that question, but I don't know how that would work out. I had never heard of Ignatian values prior to applying at Creighton and I still found a couple of ways to relate them to my life (without speaking of religion even).
     
  43. purplepower

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    I grew up in the bible belt where intolerance for different (or lack of) religions is somehow a "family value". Creighton is not that kind of place. They do believe in helping your fellow man. In fact, they see it as a mission. That's how I would/did answer the essay. Remember this caring nature is also how they treat their students.
     
  44. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    The question has nothing to do with religion or faith. It has to do with Ignatian values, which aren't 'religion.'

    If you fail to answer the question, I would assume your application wouldn't be complete and wouldn't be up for reviewal.

    If you are not religious, like many of us current students aren't, focus on compassion, kindness, empathy, etc. You don't have to even mention 'god' or religion anywhere in the question to have a successful answer.
     
  45. xscpx

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    I just googled Ignatian values and the first thing I read was "god is in all things". That's where I got that from.

    Thanks for the responses! I'm relaly happy I can still write the essays because I really want ot apply!
     
  46. drugdoc

    drugdoc Member
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    OK, I'll give you that :oops: It does ring a bell now, but I guess I don't focus or really think about the "god" aspect since I'm not religious. I focus on the other items. Here's a link to Creighton's page on Ignatian values, which should help everyone understand the focus of Creighton:

    http://spahp2.creighton.edu/jesuit.aspx

    Even though in reading this, it sounds very religious, honestly, the environment here isn't focused on religion. It's focused on the patient and doing for others.
     
  47. Nottingham

    Nottingham Accepted Pharmacy Student
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    I have no religious affiliation whatsoever so in that supp essay I picked and chose my Ignatian values. I wrote about generosity, service to others etc but just didn't even touch on "seeing god in all things" because honestly I don't really think about god, ever. They're waiting to receive my OChem I grade before they review my application (or so they tell me. Good thing I got an A, huh) so I don't know yet what their response will be. I said it before and I'll say it again, if they don't want me because of my religious convictions or lack thereof, so be it. I wouldn't want to attend an institution that discriminates this way anyhow.
     
  48. PrePharmD

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    The fact is that what one person believes to be best for their patient may be different than what another person believes to be best for the patient (religion aside). This is why patients have the right and duty to find a practitioner that best suits them and their healthcare related goals. During my interview in Minnesota, the dean of the college of pharmacy explained that prescription medications must be looked at as inherently dangerous, and this is why they are prescribed. My anatomy & physiology professor would NOT take birth control pills due to her research involving these drugs. She is an atheist and practiced natural family planning to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Some people follow the philosophy that medications and anything considered "unnatural" should be used sparingly and I happen to be one of those people. Cost-benefit analysis must be used even if you take religion out of the equation. Every healthcare provider has a right and duty to do what they think is best regarding the health and well being of the patient. If the patient's healthcare goals are not in sync with one particular healthcare provider, they have every right to find someone who better fits their needs.
     
  49. Carboxide

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    True...but you are forgetting one big thing. Pharmacists DO NOT prescribe medication! I do not understand how they can refuse to fill prescriptions based on religious convictions. It is not your body and if the doctor thinks it is an acceptable prescription to take, then pharmacists need to respect that...or find a new career.

    Religion should not be brought into it unless it's about prescriptions YOU are taking.
     
  50. Nottingham

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    Agreed!
     
  51. PrePharmD

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    Some pharmacists DO prescribe and if you read my post, it had nothing to do with religious convictions. It is EVERY healthcare provider's responsibility to do what they feel is best for the patient and if the patient's healthcare goals are different from that of a healthcare provider, he/she should find someone who is more in sync with their goals. It really is that simple. This applies to healthcare in general, not just to birth control.

    And, as much as everyone wants to deny this, it doesn't necessarily make you a better healthcare provider by ignoring your moral convictions and becoming detached "for the sake of the patient." This mentality doesn't always benefit the patient or society as a whole. A lot of the problems in this country (and around the world) have stemmed from the belief that we can maintain our own religious freedoms as long as such freedoms are exercised in the privacy of our own homes. Anybody ever been to China?? You have to close your curtains to pray. It is a slippery slope we're dealing with in regards to this issue and I'm suspiscious of anything that so freely gives away a right so many people around the world die for everyday.
     

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