Job market-Real shortage of pathologists?

[KeratinPearls]

Is there a real shortage or is this how the job market should’ve always been? I’m reading online there’s just a shortage of physicians across all specialties in general. I’ve been around SDN for like 10-15 years. I remember when there were 1-2 jobs posted a day on pathoutlines if you were lucky on that website now there are like 6-8 jobs a day.

I’m getting texts on my phone everyday for locums and I’m seeing emails from positions at undesirable cities that have been having a hard time filling their positions (multiple emails from the same hospital over the past few years). I’m seeing the same hospital increasing their salary in hopes of attracting someone with very good sign on bonuses.

One recruiter emailed me and the job ad was changed from ____ fellowship needed to no fellowship needed.

I messaged a pathologist online in a suburb near me, who also says there’s a shortage.

I mean I understand how a bunch of old timers retired during Covid and I’m just guessing the remaining bunch of pathologists in their 60s and 70s are gradually retiring as well.

Man if I could I’d just do locums for $2000 a day lol but I got a full time position. Any pathologists here struggling trying to find manpower? Some groups I hear are just doing more work per pathologist instead of hiring.

How many of you are short staffed at your jobs?

Anyone know how LADoc is doing? LOL

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[cmz]

I have spoken with a few different recruiters, and the market is pretty wide-open for anyone looking for a job. You just have to be willing to relocate. The recruiter told me that $2400/day is the going rate for "dogsh*t pathologists." He said that some are getting up to $4,000/day to cover call/weekends. I am not sure if that's true, but I know a local hospital spent $80K/month (for 1.5 FTE) on locums over the course of a year, so there has to be some weight to these numbers.

I don't know who signs out with digital pathology here, but this seems like it will become the business model for a lot of hospitals in the next 2-3 years. There are many places out there right now who do not have enough staffing and who are going to be on the brink of collapse if digital does not take off soon. Implementing digital is easier said than done, however...

You may end up seeing hospitals yoink service contracts away and hand them over to companies who can provide digital coverage. These companies can then hire a fraction of the local pathology staff (pathologists, PA) to maintain some sort of local coverage. Hospitals and other labs are still going to need a human being on-site for a specified period of time.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I have spoken with a few different recruiters, and the market is pretty wide-open for anyone looking for a job. You just have to be willing to relocate. The recruiter told me that $2400/day is the going rate for "dogsh*t pathologists." He said that some are getting up to $4,000/day to cover call/weekends. I am not sure if that's true, but I know a local hospital spent $80K/month (for 1.5 FTE) on locums over the course of a year, so there has to be some weight to these numbers.

I don't know who signs out with digital pathology here, but this seems like it will become the business model for a lot of hospitals in the next 2-3 years. There are many places out there right now who do not have enough staffing and who are going to be on the brink of collapse if digital does not take off soon. Implementing digital is easier said than done, however...

You may end up seeing hospitals yoink service contracts away and hand them over to companies who can provide digital coverage. These companies can then hire a fraction of the local pathology staff (pathologists, PA) to maintain some sort of local coverage. Hospitals and other labs are still going to need a human being on-site for a specified period of time.

Dang good to know and good for pathologists. I thought the ceiling was 1800-2000$ a day for a locums pathologist.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Yeah been seeing some digital jobs. I wonder how this will affect the job market. Would be awesome to be able to sign out cases abroad on vacation. Not sure if this is possible but in radiology, I read the following in the radiology website:

“There has been a growing trend of radiologist groups expanding their practice to foreign countries in order to facilitate 24-hour coverage. Many of these radiologists residing overseas are licensed in the state where the group’s practice is located and are credentialed by the appropriate affiliated hospital. However, Medicare does not pay for physician interpretations that are performed in other countries.

The current policy of the ACR is to require those physicians interpreting images in other states be licensed in both the state where the image was generated as well as the state where the interpretation takes place.”

Not sure if pathology will adopt the same rules.

I’m also seeing 100K sign on bonuses for some rural jobs. This was unheard of 5-10 plus years ago.

 

[mike-sheree]

It will indeed be digital. The money is a’ comin’!

 

[cmz]

It will indeed be digital. The money is a’ comin’!

Sadly, yes. Times are changing. We are all going to get leveraged even harder than before. Recruitment companies, placement companies, etc. are all going to be using this as a strong business model. Once they see this take off in certain markets, they are going to point to those successes to leverage even more business.

If you were hired to work for $15/slide, would you do it? I might be down to read at that pace. If someone hands me a modified radical mastectomy case that could probably add up to more than the reimbursement you get for 88309-26.

Overall, the market place will be more accessible but also more competitive. In order to get work, you're going to need to prove you can handle volume, maintain a good TAT, and write coherent reports. Maybe $15/slide will become too expensive. I've seen quotes from $17-20/slide right now. I do not think that these numbers will be sustainable, especially when you add in all the marketers, CEO, CFO, COO, etc with their hands out. Yeah, the money is coming... the rural folks are going to be especially effed.

 

[MetroPath]

Sadly, yes. Times are changing. We are all going to get leveraged even harder than before. Recruitment companies, placement companies, etc. are all going to be using this as a strong business model. Once they see this take off in certain markets, they are going to point to those successes to leverage even more business.

If you were hired to work for $15/slide, would you do it? I might be down to read at that pace. If someone hands me a modified radical mastectomy case that could probably add up to more than the reimbursement you get for 88309-26.

Overall, the market place will be more accessible but also more competitive. In order to get work, you're going to need to prove you can handle volume, maintain a good TAT, and write coherent reports. Maybe $15/slide will become too expensive. I've seen quotes from $17-20/slide right now. I do not think that these numbers will be sustainable, especially when you add in all the marketers, CEO, CFO, COO, etc with their hands out. Yeah, the money is coming... the rural folks are going to be especially effed.

Sorry I guess I dont quite understand the talk going on here. By "the money is comin", does that mean that will benefit the pathologist or the employer? Thanks.

 

[cmz]

Sorry I guess I dont quite understand the talk going on here. By "the money is comin", does that mean that will benefit the pathologist or the employer? Thanks.

I take it as more outside money coming to change the game.

 

[mike-sheree]

^^^

 

[cmz]

Quest is already entering digital. I see a lot of these so-called recruitment companies taking part in digital as well. In fact, these companies have a pretty good idea of digital pathology compensation and work environment. They are establishing networks with companies who supply resources for digital pathology (e.g. slide scanners, IT, etc.) and also with laboratories who can take your physical slides and render digital images, provide storage for digitized images, and maybe even loan some sort of GUI to view your images in an organized manner.

There are a lot of places out there right now that cannot get fully staffed pathologists to manage the case volumes. Some places are just too rural -- this is going to be the low-hanging fruit. I am pretty sure that not everyone will adapt to this change. I'm not smart enough to know how this is going to affect the overall job market because I, myself, still don't have any reliable data to use. I just know that it is going to happen.

- What percentage of pathologists would entertain reading digital at least full time?
- What percentage of pathologists CAN read digital?

The more I think about it, the more questions I ask about what types of specimens I would not be interested in reading. I am not sure how comfortable I would be with digital cytology. Cytology is my least favorite thing and it's not because I hate the specimens. I really detest the regulations (even though they are needed), and I cannot fathom how much more difficult things will be with digital.

 

[MetroPath]

Quest is already entering digital. I see a lot of these so-called recruitment companies taking part in digital as well. In fact, these companies have a pretty good idea of digital pathology compensation and work environment. They are establishing networks with companies who supply resources for digital pathology (e.g. slide scanners, IT, etc.) and also with laboratories who can take your physical slides and render digital images, provide storage for digitized images, and maybe even loan some sort of GUI to view your images in an organized manner.

There are a lot of places out there right now that cannot get fully staffed pathologists to manage the case volumes. Some places are just too rural -- this is going to be the low-hanging fruit. I am pretty sure that not everyone will adapt to this change. I'm not smart enough to know how this is going to affect the overall job market because I, myself, still don't have any reliable data to use. I just know that it is going to happen.

- What percentage of pathologists would entertain reading digital at least full time?
- What percentage of pathologists CAN read digital?

The more I think about it, the more questions I ask about what types of specimens I would not be interested in reading. I am not sure how comfortable I would be with digital cytology. Cytology is my least favorite thing and it's not because I hate the specimens. I really detest the regulations (even though they are needed), and I cannot fathom how much more difficult things will be with digital.

I wonder how digital will affect the job market as well. There was a remote digital job I applied to and I got a reply from the employer that she received an overwhelming amount of responses from the job ad. My guess is there are plenty of pathologists looking for side income on top of their full time job and believe me I know some people willing to put extra hours to make more money.

Also employing pathologists on a 1099 saves money for the employer correct? (Don’t have to pay benefits), so I’m guessing more employers may resort to digital to save some money?

How digital affects the job market would depend on supply and demand and if digital jobs are out there, what type of demand would these jobs get from money hungry pathologists (who are looking to work from home or Hawaii) and other pathologists looking for extra income on top of their full time.

I think these digital full time jobs would be nice for those that just want to go part time, stay at home and help with the kids.

My worries are if the amount of digital work going around will just get eaten up by pathologists looking for extra work/income or by those looking to work at home. And if there’s strong demand for digital work, will prices paid by employer per slide drop because of sheer demand for work?

How will this affect the job market?

 

[shikimate]

I know pathologists near retirement (who are bad with computers and tech in general) who are very excited by talks of digital pathology. Their thinking was when they are bored in retirement or not travelling they'll just sit in front of a computer, sign out a few polyps, and make some good $ to sweeten their retirement. They like the idea of making some $ at home and let the full timers that are in person worry about all the lab management, teaching, and various "pesky" stuff that happens in a workplace.

I do see this as delaying their retirement, maybe they go 0.2 FTE or something, and obstructing potential full hires. In the current short term where there is a shortage, this is not a problem, but in the long run, when supply catch up, this will become a problem.

I think their thinking is very idealistic. I don't know if these old timers will get their wish. I know the ones that want this is very slow and terrible with computer and tech in general lol. If we go digital what's preventing a younger person, who's 10x faster on the computer, from taking the work rather than giving it to some old guy? My friends and I (we're all in our 30s) are all salivating at the prospect of being able to make 1.5FTE $ or even 2FTE $ if we can get our hands on digital path.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Don’t worry big companies like HCA and “nonprofit” healthcare systems are going to fix the so called shortage by importing thousands of foreign doctors without a U.S. residency

 

[HeyDalaron]

Don’t worry big companies like HCA and “nonprofit” healthcare systems are going to fix the so called shortage by importing thousands of foreign doctors without a U.S. residency

Why invest in technology when you can import cheap and obsequious fmg labor of variable skill and qualifications?

 

[Alteran]

Sadly, yes. Times are changing. We are all going to get leveraged even harder than before. Recruitment companies, placement companies, etc. are all going to be using this as a strong business model. Once they see this take off in certain markets, they are going to point to those successes to leverage even more business.

If you were hired to work for $15/slide, would you do it? I might be down to read at that pace. If someone hands me a modified radical mastectomy case that could probably add up to more than the reimbursement you get for 88309-26.

Overall, the market place will be more accessible but also more competitive. In order to get work, you're going to need to prove you can handle volume, maintain a good TAT, and write coherent reports. Maybe $15/slide will become too expensive. I've seen quotes from $17-20/slide right now. I do not think that these numbers will be sustainable, especially when you add in all the marketers, CEO, CFO, COO, etc with their hands out. Yeah, the money is coming... the rural folks are going to be especially effed.

$15 dollar/slide when the reimbursement for an 88309 professionally isn't more than $130

Once digital pathology takes off, you're looking at $15/case.....

The intermediary step is going likely be a collaborative type arrangement between groups that have extra bandwidth for work. Some groups right now have enough extra work to make life stressful but not enough to hire another pathologist FTE. Its an awkward state to be in. So groups are just going to slosh around the work between themselves and come out ahead without having to hire anyone else.

 

[mike-sheree]

And A.I. will screen/pre-screen anything you want.

 

[Guest8]

Don’t worry big companies like HCA and “nonprofit” healthcare systems are going to fix the so called shortage by importing thousands of foreign doctors without a U.S. residency

There's no such thing as a practicing US physician without a US residency. Never has been.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Sadly, yes. Times are changing. We are all going to get leveraged even harder than before. Recruitment companies, placement companies, etc. are all going to be using this as a strong business model. Once they see this take off in certain markets, they are going to point to those successes to leverage even more business.

If you were hired to work for $15/slide, would you do it? I might be down to read at that pace. If someone hands me a modified radical mastectomy case that could probably add up to more than the reimbursement you get for 88309-26.

Overall, the market place will be more accessible but also more competitive. In order to get work, you're going to need to prove you can handle volume, maintain a good TAT, and write coherent reports. Maybe $15/slide will become too expensive. I've seen quotes from $17-20/slide right now. I do not think that these numbers will be sustainable, especially when you add in all the marketers, CEO, CFO, COO, etc with their hands out. Yeah, the money is coming... the rural folks are going to be especially effed.

Rural folks will be no more "effed" than the urban folks.

 

[Iceman24]

Why invest in technology when you can import cheap and obsequious fmg labor of variable skill and qualifications?

HCA folks do not hire US-trained and board certified foreign doctors, so why should they "import" "true" foreigners?
And even if they want to, how these docs would obtain state license?

 

[Iceman24]

There's no such thing as a practicing US physician without a US residency. Never has been.

It does happened at the University hospitals, somehow these guys are able to obtain license; does not happened often, of course.
One of my residency faculty did not do any training on US soil, he was signing out cases still.
Few other faculty (mostly radiology and surgical subspecialties) also never did residency, just a fellowship.

 

[HeyDalaron]

There's no such thing as a practicing US physician without a US residency. Never has been.

There is, but it doesn't matter as residencies recruit plenty of questionable fmgs anyway as grossing scut laborers

 

[cmz]

Rural folks will be no more "effed" than the urban folks.

Everyone is going to get effed in one way or another.

 

[cmz]

$15 dollar/slide when the reimbursement for an 88309 professionally isn't more than $130

Once digital pathology takes off, you're looking at $15/case.....

The intermediary step is going likely be a collaborative type arrangement between groups that have extra bandwidth for work. Some groups right now have enough extra work to make life stressful but not enough to hire another pathologist FTE. Its an awkward state to be in. So groups are just going to slosh around the work between themselves and come out ahead without having to hire anyone else.

Yeah, it will definitely be a race to the bottom. I am getting all kinds of quotes from these physician recruiters who are trying to push their pathologists who can read digital on my group. They want somewhere between $15-18/slide. So I would have to pay someone to read 80 total slides a day $28,800/month for 20 days of work or $345,600/year. The only downside is that I don't have that same person to cover call, do frozens, or go to rapid on-site evaluations. Reading 80 total slides a day is nothing.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Let’s hope the job market doesn’t revert back to the $700 per day locums days. If so, I predict SDN will be back to a sh@tshow and we will see the return of Thrombus.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

Let’s hope the job market doesn’t revert back to the $700 per day locums days. If so, I predict SDN will be back to a sh@tshow and we will see the return of Thrombus.

This forum never stopped being a dumpster fire. It’s been over 10 years since anything worth reading was posted here, and the fact none of the original posters who made this place good remain is a testament to the stench of the unflushed toilet we have before us.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Let’s hope the job market doesn’t revert back to the $700 per day locums days. If so, I predict SDN will be back to a sh@tshow and we will see the return of Thrombus.

It's no fun now that the job market improved. Post covid things sure did change. Never thought I would see White Castle paying 17 bucks an hour down in the hollar. Funny thing about that 700 dollar day locum offer was that it was for LADoc's lab. He doesn't have any other pathologists on his website anymore. Hell, they had to wheel him out of surgery to look at a specimen on himself as I recall.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

It's no fun now that the job market improved. Post covid things sure did change. Never thought I would see White Castle paying 17 bucks an hour down in the hollar. Funny thing about that 700 dollar day locum offer was that it was for LADoc's lab. He doesn't have any other pathologists on his website anymore. Hell, they had to wheel him out of surgery to look at a specimen on himself as I recall.

He doxxed himself by forgetting to log out of that weird alt-right Facebook account. That was around the time he disappeared. I think he was also banned for bullying premeds or something.

 

[macrocyte]

Man why are we hating on LADoc now? He was one of the most interesting posters on our forums and on many occasions he spit the truth.

 

[KeratinPearls]

It's no fun now that the job market improved. Post covid things sure did change. Never thought I would see White Castle paying 17 bucks an hour down in the hollar. Funny thing about that 700 dollar day locum offer was that it was for LADoc's lab. He doesn't have any other pathologists on his website anymore. Hell, they had to wheel him out of surgery to look at a specimen on himself as I recall.

His webpage is still up. I hope he’s well wherever he is. He replied to almost every message (a bunch) I sent him asking for advice, so I got nothing but respect for him.

Looks like he’s into precision medicine/AI/Machine learning/molecular testing now. Entrepreneurial guy.

 

[KeratinPearls]

This forum never stopped being a dumpster fire. It’s been over 10 years since anything worth reading was posted here, and the fact none of the original posters who made this place good remain is a testament to the stench of the unflushed toilet we have before us.

SDN was just where pathologists came to voice their frustrations. Yeah there were a bunch of lunatics on here that were really really overboard but the job market 5-10 years ago is nothing like how it’s like now. I remember when there were 1-2 job postings a day.

The market now is the complete opposite with much higher starting salaries. I was offered 180-200K starting at the start of Covid. Now, people are getting 300+ starting in private.

More jobs popping up in large cities while a few years ago there was like a handful. Jobs are offering 100K sign on bonuses and jobs are posting good to high salaries. Locums 1800-2000$+ a day. Getting texts and emails everyday from recruiters looking for locums pathologists. I’m seeing emails from one hospital over and over again over a few years so I’m guessing they are having a hard time filling.

I’ve noticed SDN has gotten quieter and somewhat more civilized since the market improved.

I just wonder how long it’ll last and if and when we will all be back here b&tching about the job market.

 

[octopusprime]

SDN was just where pathologists came to voice their frustrations. Yeah there were a bunch of lunatics on here that were really really overboard but the job market 5-10 years ago is nothing like how it’s like now. I remember when there were 1-2 job postings a day.

The market now is the complete opposite with much higher starting salaries. I was offered 180-200K starting at the start of Covid. Now, people are getting 300+ starting in private.

More jobs popping up in large cities while a few years ago there was like a handful. Jobs are offering 100K sign on bonuses and jobs are posting good to high salaries. Locums 1800-2000$+ a day. Getting texts and emails everyday from recruiters looking for locums pathologists. I’m seeing emails from one hospital over and over again over a few years so I’m guessing they are having a hard time filling.

I’ve noticed SDN has gotten quieter and somewhat more civilized since the market improved.

I just wonder how long it’ll last and if and when we will all be back here b&tching about the job market.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. More civilized, better job market, less bi+ching, though I'm curious what the long term prospects are for new hires and what the current job types constitute--are they PP with partnership track? Are they employed but hospitals & labs are just paying more?
The likelihood of finding at 95th percentile MGMA job is still low, but I guess I don't even know what 95th percentile is nowadays anyway...

Most people in my generation ~15 yrs out of residency know old guard pathologists that worked less stressful jobs, took 12-15 weeks vaca, and made 7 figures. I wonder if the general pool of job seekers is just uniformly making more money (ie. the disparity is less), as opposed to when I was looking for jobs, which saw a few 95th percentile gigs but mostly lower-pay salaried employee positions. ?

 

[mike-sheree]

I tend to agree with this sentiment. More civilized, better job market, less bi+ching, though I'm curious what the long term prospects are for new hires and what the current job types constitute--are they PP with partnership track? Are they employed but hospitals & labs are just paying more?
The likelihood of finding at 95th percentile MGMA job is still low, but I guess I don't even know what 95th percentile is nowadays anyway...

Most people in my generation ~15 yrs out of residency know old guard pathologists that worked less stressful jobs, took 12-15 weeks vaca, and made 7 figures. I wonder if the general pool of job seekers is just uniformly making more money (ie. the disparity is less), as opposed to when I was looking for jobs, which saw a few 95th percentile gigs but mostly lower-pay salaried employee positions. ?

I don’t think the jobs were less stressful but there sure was better compensation per widget.

 

[Alteran]

SDN was just where pathologists came to voice their frustrations. Yeah there were a bunch of lunatics on here that were really really overboard but the job market 5-10 years ago is nothing like how it’s like now. I remember when there were 1-2 job postings a day.

The market now is the complete opposite with much higher starting salaries. I was offered 180-200K starting at the start of Covid. Now, people are getting 300+ starting in private.

More jobs popping up in large cities while a few years ago there was like a handful. Jobs are offering 100K sign on bonuses and jobs are posting good to high salaries. Locums 1800-2000$+ a day. Getting texts and emails everyday from recruiters looking for locums pathologists. I’m seeing emails from one hospital over and over again over a few years so I’m guessing they are having a hard time filling.

I’ve noticed SDN has gotten quieter and somewhat more civilized since the market improved.

I just wonder how long it’ll last and if and when we will all be back here b&tching about the job market.

What I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around is where is the money coming from for these higher salaries. For the past decade we've had 2-3% decreases in reimbursement year or year. Private practices can't be expected to pay ever higher salaries all the while reimbursement continuously drops AND still stay in business - but perhaps that's the plan in the end.

 

[ChicagoPath]

What I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around is where is the money coming from for these higher salaries. For the past decade we've had 2-3% decreases in reimbursement year or year. Private practices can't be expected to pay ever higher salaries all the while reimbursement continuously drops AND still stay in business - but perhaps that's the plan in the end.

Hospital employed positions.

Some hospitals are doing well financially especially in rural areas. They have bought out or have contracts with other smaller hospitals and other entities and cast their net wide in an area untouched by other hospitals and corporations. I know because I’m at one.

Webb may be right.

Rural is the way to go if you don’t mind living there.

Groups and hospitals in larger cities will just lowball you or pay you less (compared to rural) for craploads of work. While in rural you get paid well for similar amounts of work. They have to pay you well to retain docs and that’s the draw for docs (higher salary).

Here’s the kicker: Some hospitals in rural areas will give you a nice bonus on top of a high salary to keep you there over the long term.

RVU based productivity bonuses are awesome. You work harder you make more. While in some groups, you work harder you get paid $hit.

Even worse, are jobs where you are making money for greedy old pathologists in large cities who pay you 250K because they know they can, while you’re making them $$$.

The worst are academic positions that pay you low and work you to the bone and you have to do 9 pm frozens at night for transplants, while the greedy old senior pathologists in your group are at home in bed by 8 pm while passively collecting a sizable paycheck off your hard work.

I have no idea why some people take these jobs. I’m sure the experience is good for a few years but I would never want to work for these groups long term. The amount of money you are putting in someone else’s pockets instead of your own is depressing.

From a financial perspective, rural jobs are better than most jobs in larger cities and there’s no 5 to 7 years to partnership like I’ve seen in some private jobs I applied to in the past. Some hospitals give you nice contributions as well to retirement plans to sweeten the deal and to get you to stay there long term.

Some hospitals are able pay their docs well because the hospital itself financially is doing well. Also they want to retain you, only if you are good at what you do of course.

You’d be surprised. Some hospitals treat their docs well. I am grateful for my position. Beats the hell out of some predatory groups I’ve seen in larger cities.

The people I’ve met have all been nice and welcoming.

 

[KeratinPearls]

What I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around is where is the money coming from for these higher salaries. For the past decade we've had 2-3% decreases in reimbursement year or year. Private practices can't be expected to pay ever higher salaries all the while reimbursement continuously drops AND still stay in business - but perhaps that's the plan in the end.

Might be desperation who knows. I’m seeing the same job ad for one hospital over the past few years. They can’t seem to find someone. I know a guy (heard he’s not very good) who worked there and eventually left. The high pay via a full time salaried position might be better than losing more money on a locums. They jacked up their starting salary from previous ads I’ve seen and also included a signing bonus so I think they may be desperate for help.

I know some pathologists working 12 hour days and weekends to handle workloads.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Hospital employed positions.

Some hospitals are doing well financially especially in rural areas. They have bought out or have contracts with other smaller hospitals and other entities and cast their net wide in an area untouched by other hospitals and corporations. I know because I’m at one.

Webb may be right.

Rural is the way to go if you don’t mind living there.

Groups and hospitals in larger cities will just lowball you or pay you less (compared to rural) for craploads of work. While in rural you get paid well for similar amounts of work. They have to pay you well to retain docs and that’s the draw for docs (higher salary).

Here’s the kicker: Some hospitals in rural areas will give you a nice bonus on top of a high salary to keep you there over the long term.

RVU based productivity bonuses are awesome. You work harder you make more. While in some groups, you work harder you get paid $hit.

Even worse, are jobs where you are making money for greedy old pathologists in large cities who pay you 250K because they know they can, while you’re making them $$$.

The worst are academic positions that pay you low and work you to the bone and you have to do 9 pm frozens at night for transplants, while the greedy old senior pathologists in your group are at home in bed by 8 pm while passively collecting a sizable paycheck off your hard work.

I have no idea why some people take these jobs. I’m sure the experience is good for a few years but I would never want to work for these groups long term. The amount of money you are putting in someone else’s pockets instead of your own is depressing.

From a financial perspective, rural jobs are better than most jobs in larger cities and there’s no 5 to 7 years to partnership like I’ve seen in some private jobs I applied to in the past. Some hospitals give you nice contributions as well to retirement plans to sweeten the deal and to get you to stay there long term.

Some hospitals are able pay their docs well because the hospital itself financially is doing well. Also they want to retain you, only if you are good at what you do of course.

You’d be surprised. Some hospitals treat their docs well. I am grateful for my position. Beats the hell out of some predatory groups I’ve seen in larger cities.

The people I’ve met have all been nice and welcoming.

Totally agree with above. As a general rule, hospital employed positions are the way to go. The opposite was true 30 years ago when a hospital employed physician was stereotyped as an unambitious chump and the pay gap between private practice and employment was much bigger than it is today.
Don't be tempted by private groups. They will tell you that you should be your own boss, and take the risk like they did X years ago. Unfortunately, while saying that they seem to have temporary amnesia to the fact that they pulled up the carpet after themselves and joining their group is NOT the same as when they did. Don't trust that the risk is a safe one and worth it, unless it comes from someone in your family or someone you've known since you're a kid - the cool senior resident you looked up to or thought was a decent person does not count.
They aren't lying - it is some weird amnesia / selective vision that is taking place and for which you will suffer.

 

[Guest8]

Our employed hospital practice is paid >$500K for one FTE with some people working 0.8, 0.6 FTE. There are small-ish RVU bonuses on top of that.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

The churn and burn from disreputable private practices is a real thing. I have personally witnessed very good pathologists have their professional reputations destroyed by taking these jobs directly out of training after being told that they should never settle for anything less than partner track at a physician owned practice. The toxic PP partners will never admit that they are taking advantage of a revolving door of exploitable labor - it’s the new hires that are all terrible. There is a special place in hell for these scumbags.

 

[shikimate]

I know in Canada only large hospitals affiliated with a university has the resources to do immigration so a lof of IMG who cannot get citizenship in US work in academic places like Toronto whereby workload is high and pay is low.

Is this true in USA as well? With so many IMGs they probably will accept any job as long as it gets them onto a green card?

 

[Zarniwoop]

Our employed hospital practice is paid >$500K for one FTE with some people working 0.8, 0.6 FTE. There are small-ish RVU bonuses on top of that.

It is amazing that employed positions can pay that much considering just a few years ago the hospitals would never consider paying a pathologist like that. I'm not sure where the money is coming from (in the past hospitals would always lie and say they didn't have the funds to pay better). Either way an employed gig for $500 beats by miles the small chance of becoming a partner and whatever income they earn above that (probably not that much). Plus PP always has the stress that their contract can end and their that their scam will be up - not a concern as a hospital employee.

 

[Iceman24]

I know in Canada only large hospitals affiliated with a university has the resources to do immigration so a lof of IMG who cannot get citizenship in US work in academic places like Toronto whereby workload is high and pay is low.

Is this true in USA as well? With so many IMGs they probably will accept any job as long as it gets them onto a green card?

Yes and no. A lot of IMGs are desperate, but it does not mean they would be able to find any job since a lot of places do not want to deal with any visas at all, forget about green card sponsorship. Surgeons or GI docs may veto any foreigner into path group simply because they do not want to deal with an accent, and they don't case much about your professionalism.

 

[ChicagoPath]

It is amazing that employed positions can pay that much considering just a few years ago the hospitals would never consider paying a pathologist like that. I'm not sure where the money is coming from (in the past hospitals would always lie and say they didn't have the funds to pay better). Either way an employed gig for $500 beats by miles the small chance of becoming a partner and whatever income they earn above that (probably not that much). Plus PP always has the stress that their contract can end and their that their scam will be up - not a concern as a hospital employee.

The job market was garbage in 2020 and the many years before. Starting salaries of 200K was the norm in 2020. I talked with my colleagues who tell me the job market was horrible 30 years ago and 10 years ago when they were looking for jobs.

All new grads consider yourself lucky. Get a job while it lasts and start getting experience.

It has gradually gotten better since Covid.

 

[Med Director New England]

I don’t think there’s a shortage of path’s (esp in New England). The big 3 in Boston alone pump out 50 + / yr newly minted trainees many with sign out experience (instructors for a yr).

Just got a message from a colleague / old friend — excellent pathologist with a lot of experience — who hates there job so much they want to leave but can’t find anything decent nearby.

Digital AP with TC/ PC splits will make staffing hospital based paths do much easier. Soon all smallish hospitals, surgery centers, etc send jars to a large central lab, lab will digitize and send images to network of paths for sign out. Some of these will be on-site pathologists can taking care of what’s needed inside the walls of Hospital, others may be at home or whatever.

I know from insider that Quest / Ameripath is already in talks with several states to have state license the entire network of quest labs - which will remove the barrier of each individual path needing a state license. When this happens friends it will become obvious in my opinion how we have far too many paths in the US.

Serious question- how many paths do you know who have extremely cushy (never at work after 4 pm) jobs.

Is a job that has been posted and not filled for 18 months like many on PO is that a real need ?
Someone doing the work.

How many academics out there doing like 24 weeks / yr of service and 20 weeks a year of academia BS.

How can biopsy’ologists still own labs and hire paths for sub Medicare for the PC if we have a shortage.

So many things that I see do not support a shortage of pathologists.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I don’t think there’s a shortage of path’s (esp in New England). The big 3 in Boston alone pump out 50 + / yr newly minted trainees many with sign out experience (instructors for a yr).

Just got a message from a colleague / old friend — excellent pathologist with a lot of experience — who hates there job so much they want to leave but can’t find anything decent nearby.

Digital AP with TC/ PC splits will make staffing hospital based paths do much easier. Soon all smallish hospitals, surgery centers, etc send jars to a large central lab, lab will digitize and send images to network of paths for sign out. Some of these will be on-site pathologists can taking care of what’s needed inside the walls of Hospital, others may be at home or whatever.

I know from insider that Quest / Ameripath is already in talks with several states to have state license the entire network of quest labs - which will remove the barrier of each individual path needing a state license. When this happens friends it will become obvious in my opinion how we have far too many paths in the US.

Serious question- how many paths do you know who have extremely cushy (never at work after 4 pm) jobs.

Is a job that has been posted and not filled for 18 months like many on PO is that a real need ?
Someone doing the work.

How many academics out there doing like 24 weeks / yr of service and 20 weeks a year of academia BS.

How can biopsy’ologists still own labs and hire paths for sub Medicare for the PC if we have a shortage.

So many things that I see do not support a shortage of pathologists.

Near me there have always been few jobs. Too many residents being pumped out.

The thing is there might be a few more than years ago but nothing to brag about. Some jobs are garbage too (busy and lower pay) so there’s really not much to choose from.

Get a job as soon as you can you young grads and find a secure job where you are happy at and hopefully you don’t have to change jobs when the market goes into the dumps.

You still may have to be willing to move in this field for a job.

As for digital I’m wondering how low pay can go just for someone to read a GI biopsy. Depends on the demand of pathologists looking for extra work.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I don’t think there’s a shortage of path’s (esp in New England). The big 3 in Boston alone pump out 50 + / yr newly minted trainees many with sign out experience (instructors for a yr).

Just got a message from a colleague / old friend — excellent pathologist with a lot of experience — who hates there job so much they want to leave but can’t find anything decent nearby.

Digital AP with TC/ PC splits will make staffing hospital based paths do much easier. Soon all smallish hospitals, surgery centers, etc send jars to a large central lab, lab will digitize and send images to network of paths for sign out. Some of these will be on-site pathologists can taking care of what’s needed inside the walls of Hospital, others may be at home or whatever.

I know from insider that Quest / Ameripath is already in talks with several states to have state license the entire network of quest labs - which will remove the barrier of each individual path needing a state license. When this happens friends it will become obvious in my opinion how we have far too many paths in the US.

Serious question- how many paths do you know who have extremely cushy (never at work after 4 pm) jobs.

Is a job that has been posted and not filled for 18 months like many on PO is that a real need ?
Someone doing the work.

How many academics out there doing like 24 weeks / yr of service and 20 weeks a year of academia BS.

How can biopsy’ologists still own labs and hire paths for sub Medicare for the PC if we have a shortage.

So many things that I see do not support a shortage of pathologists.

Why does your friend hate his job so much? I’m assuming he or she’s been there for quite some time.

 

[Zarniwoop]

I don’t think there’s a shortage of path’s (esp in New England). The big 3 in Boston alone pump out 50 + / yr newly minted trainees many with sign out experience (instructors for a yr).

Just got a message from a colleague / old friend — excellent pathologist with a lot of experience — who hates there job so much they want to leave but can’t find anything decent nearby.

Digital AP with TC/ PC splits will make staffing hospital based paths do much easier. Soon all smallish hospitals, surgery centers, etc send jars to a large central lab, lab will digitize and send images to network of paths for sign out. Some of these will be on-site pathologists can taking care of what’s needed inside the walls of Hospital, others may be at home or whatever.

I know from insider that Quest / Ameripath is already in talks with several states to have state license the entire network of quest labs - which will remove the barrier of each individual path needing a state license. When this happens friends it will become obvious in my opinion how we have far too many paths in the US.

Serious question- how many paths do you know who have extremely cushy (never at work after 4 pm) jobs.

Is a job that has been posted and not filled for 18 months like many on PO is that a real need ?
Someone doing the work.

How many academics out there doing like 24 weeks / yr of service and 20 weeks a year of academia BS.

How can biopsy’ologists still own labs and hire paths for sub Medicare for the PC if we have a shortage.

So many things that I see do not support a shortage of pathologists.

Very few people that I know in path have cushy jobs outside of the VA. Most physicians with cushy lifestyles are in other specialties since they get some say in how hard they work. In path, you have to take what is given to you, and what is given to you is almost always a lot.

 

[octopusprime]

I share NE's sentiment that even if the job market and prospects seem rosy for new grads, digital path will soon enable large corporate outfits to digitize slides and commoditize AP even more than it is now.
Make hay while the sun shines and save as much for retirement as you can.

 

[RE-Tired]

Speaking of Telepath jobs- Anyone know anything about Frado.Ai - new ad for them on PathOutlines?

 

[KeratinPearls]

You guys remember when we had 50+ unfilled programs?

 

[shikimate]

Do they break the data down into AMG vs IMG applicants? I think one would be hard pressed to find many IMGs in NSx, PSx, derm and OSx