Job search for pediatrics in SF - it's hard!

[tantacles]

My partner graduated peds residency last year in Ohio, and he's been working there for the last 6 months as I finish. I've accepted a position as a hospitalist in SF, and he's having trouble finding jobs that are in or close to the city.

Does anyone have any good recruiters they've used to find primary care jobs? Not exactly sure where to start! It seems like the job market in San Francisco is very word of mouth based. He's reached out to recruiters from Kaiser and Stanford.

Feel free to PM if that's more comfortable!

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[tantacles]

Hey, bumping my own thread! Anyone have any tips?

 

[Ladholyman]

SF is very saturated. I would bookmark this page: Career Opportunities - Northern California Physician Careers and look for opportunities across the bay.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Hey, bumping my own thread! Anyone have any tips?

Here's a tip for you. Don't move to San Francisco. In San Francisco you'd be paid way below the national average, if you can actually find a job. You'd be taxed to death. You wouldn't be able to afford a house. Moving there is foolish.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Honestly, if you didn’t do residency here the Bay Area is very tough to break into. When I started residency in the Bay Area my wife had just finished her residency out on the East coast and all she could find for a couple of years was a part-time job paying her an absurdly low amount of money (something like $70 per hour with no benefits) to do outpatient peds. She since got a much better-paying and stable job after being here for a few years. The job market sucks in the Bay Area for most specialties (hence the ortho fellow I worked with recently on her second fellowship trying to get a job around here).

If you don’t really need to be in the Bay Area, try to find a job in a part of the country where a two-physician household can afford to buy a house.

If you do need to be here, the big groups are Stanford (they have bought a huge number of small practices), PAMF and Kaiser. Those are your best bets, but they are popular jobs. For Stanford, you can look at PICN, NICU, PICU, CVICU hospitalist jobs as well as outpatient. I wouldn’t work for the group that covers the outpatient resident clinic but if you work at any of the recently acquired private groups those are decent gigs.


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[tantacles]

SF is very saturated. I would bookmark this page: Career Opportunities - Northern California Physician Careers and look for opportunities across the bay.

Thanks! We've already contacted the Kaiser recruiter. I was hoping someone might have something a bit less google-accessible!

 

[tantacles]

Here's a tip for you. Don't move to San Francisco. In San Francisco you'd be paid way below the national average, if you can actually find a job. You'd be taxed to death. You wouldn't be able to afford a house. Moving there is foolish.

Thanks for the tip! We'll be able to live quite comfortably on my salary alone. My partner having a job, however, would be excellent so that he can not have his medical degree go to waste!

And might I add: I'm not looking for advice on where to move. I'm delighted with the position I've accepted in San Francisco, and I don't plan to move to any other area.

 

[tantacles]

Honestly, if you didn’t do residency here the Bay Area is very tough to break into. When I started residency in the Bay Area my wife had just finished her residency out on the East coast and all she could find for a couple of years was a part-time job paying her an absurdly low amount of money (something like $70 per hour with no benefits) to do outpatient peds. She since got a much better-paying and stable job after being here for a few years. The job market sucks in the Bay Area for most specialties (hence the ortho fellow I worked with recently on her second fellowship trying to get a job around here).

If you don’t really need to be in the Bay Area, try to find a job in a part of the country where a two-physician household can afford to buy a house.

Actually, we could live pretty comfortably on my salary alone, but his having a job would also be lovely! Letting his medical degree go to waste seems silly.

Edit: Also, we've owned a house for the last 4 years and I hate it, but that's probably not too germane to this discussion as regardless of whether we're going to buy a house, we're moving to the bay area.

If you do need to be here, the big groups are Stanford (they have bought a huge number of small practices), PAMF and Kaiser. Those are your best bets, but they are popular jobs. For Stanford, you can look at PICN, NICU, PICU, CVICU hospitalist jobs as well as outpatient. I wouldn’t work for the group that covers the outpatient resident clinic but if you work at any of the recently acquired private groups those are decent gigs.

Thanks much! He's contacted recruiters from Stanford, Kaiser, and Sutter Health (PAMF), but I'm hoping to find some opportunities for work that are a little less google-accessible. He's only interested in primary care positions as inpatient work isn't his cup of tea, but what I found in my job search (which, honestly, was pretty quick and resulted in an awesome position for two weeks but was for internal medicine) was that connections mattered, and most places aren't posting openings too publicly. If your spouse has any tips or knows of any positions, please reach out here or by PM! We'd appreciate any help.

 

[NurWollen]

Honestly, if you didn’t do residency here the Bay Area is very tough to break into. When I started residency in the Bay Area my wife had just finished her residency out on the East coast and all she could find for a couple of years was a part-time job paying her an absurdly low amount of money (something like $70 per hour with no benefits) to do outpatient peds. She since got a much better-paying and stable job after being here for a few years. The job market sucks in the Bay Area for most specialties (hence the ortho fellow I worked with recently on her second fellowship trying to get a job around here).

If you don’t really need to be in the Bay Area, try to find a job in a part of the country where a two-physician household can afford to buy a house.

If you do need to be here, the big groups are Stanford (they have bought a huge number of small practices), PAMF and Kaiser. Those are your best bets, but they are popular jobs. For Stanford, you can look at PICN, NICU, PICU, CVICU hospitalist jobs as well as outpatient. I wouldn’t work for the group that covers the outpatient resident clinic but if you work at any of the recently acquired private groups those are decent gigs.


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What's PICN?

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[physicsnerd42]

What's PICN?

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It’s our step-down NICU. There is a team that is run by hospitalists that also covers all deliveries that require a pediatrician.


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[physicsnerd42]

OP: also contact Santa Clara Valley Medical Center. It’s the Santa Clara County hospital (that Stanford peds residents also rotate at) that has a bunch of outpatient peds clinics from Sunnyvale to Gilroy. Working there is actually pretty great.


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[tantacles]

OP: also contact Santa Clara Valley Medical Center. It’s the Santa Clara County hospital (that Stanford peds residents also rotate at) that has a bunch of outpatient peds clinics from Sunnyvale to Gilroy. Working there is actually pretty great.


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Thanks! I will definitely look into that.

 

[TheSingularity]

Only thing I can think of after reading the title of this thread is

"Duh."

It sounds like your partner having a job is an option to you rather than a necessity. don't know how id feel about that after going through a crazy amount of training and expense but hey that's just me.

Sometimes part of being an adult is realizing that some places are nice to visit, but not practical to live.

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[Perrotfish]

My partner graduated peds residency last year in Ohio, and he's been working there for the last 6 months as I finish. I've accepted a position as a hospitalist in SF, and he's having trouble finding jobs that are in or close to the city., and

A major path I have seen into hyper-desirable areas is to join Kaiser at another site, and then transfer after being with them for 3 years.

Would you be willing to live in one of the outlying suburbs and commute in for 3 years, with the hope of moving to the city proper in year 4?

 

[tantacles]

A major path I have seen into hyper-desirable areas is to join Kaiser at another site, and then transfer after being with them for 3 years.

Would you be willing to live in one of the outlying suburbs and commute in for 3 years, with the hope of moving to the city proper in year 4?

Yes! He's in touch with the Kaiser recruiter.

I'm honestly just trying to see if anyone in the area has any direct knowledge! It seems as if most of the jobs don't end up being posted because they're filled by people who have connections. As an example, a practice is currently looking for a full time position, and one of my friends received an e-mail because her program director in LA was connected to the person looking for the position. We only found out that the position was open through her; it's not posted anywhere.

That being said, He's obviously not hoping for a recommendation or reference from anyone he's never worked with. Just appropriate people to contact.

 

[tantacles]

Only thing I can think of after reading the title of this thread is

"Duh."

It sounds like your partner having a job is an option to you rather than a necessity. don't know how id feel about that after going through a crazy amount of training and expense but hey that's just me.

That's an interesting perspective! Thank you for the contribution. It might be productive to think of my declaration that "it's hard" as a reason to seek help in the job search, not a reason that he should forego any "inconvenient" job opportunities that arise.

As I mentioned, I could support us on my salary quite easily, but that situation is definitely suboptimal. That technically makes his having a job an option for us financially, a situation we are lucky to be in.

Sometimes part of being an adult is realizing that some places are nice to visit, but not practical to live.

And sometimes, part of being an adult is utilizing all of the resources available to you to help your amazing partner find a job in a difficult market. I don't think the adult thing to do in this case would be to back out of my already signed contracts. In fact that would be rather irresponsible, no? We jointly made the decision to move to San Francisco, and we agreed that I would find a position first, and then he would find his after. My search had many of the same obstacles, and he supported me through my search. I intend to fully support him through his.

 

[Perrotfish]

I don't think the adult thing to do in this case would be to back out of my already signed contracts. In fact that would be rather irresponsible, no? We jointly made the decision to move to San Francisco, and we agreed that I would find a position first, and then he would find his after.

Do you mind sharing why you chose SF?

 

[tantacles]

SF is a wonderful city with fantastic weather (for those, like me, who like mild weather), excellent public transit, a nearby coast, myriad hospitals to choose from in terms of work (my job was very easy to find), and friends nearby. These things, for us, outweighed the cons - namely, expensive housing and a somewhat saturated pediatrics market, among other minor things we don't mind.

 

[TheSingularity]

What is the pay for a hospitalist in SF, and how many hours/yr are expected?

SF is a wonderful city with fantastic weather (for those, like me, who like mild weather), excellent public transit, a nearby coast, myriad hospitals to choose from in terms of work (my job was very easy to find), and friends nearby. These things, for us, outweighed the cons - namely, expensive housing and a somewhat saturated pediatrics market, among other minor things we don't mind.

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[Gastrapathy]

What about trying to do a fellowship in the area? Even one of the BS academic medicine fellowships or something. Get out there and network during that period

Fellowship Programs

med.stanford.edu

Several non-ACGME fellowships that might still have openings

 

[tantacles]

What is the pay for a hospitalist in SF, and how many hours/yr are expected?

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I only interviewed for adult hospitalist jobs, and the pay seems to be between 200,000-250,000. The 200,000 was for a 0.7 FTE position.

 

[tantacles]

What about trying to do a fellowship in the area? Even one of the BS academic medicine fellowships or something. Get out there and network during that period

Fellowship Programs

med.stanford.edu

Several non-ACGME fellowships that might still have openings

Certainly a possibility, but not ideal given the cost of living. He has several leads and interviews now (just flew out for two this week), and I'll likely post an update once all is said and done.

 

[TheSingularity]

How many hours?

I only interviewed for adult hospitalist jobs, and the pay seems to be between 200,000-250,000. The 200,000 was for a 0.7 FTE position.

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[physicsnerd42]

I only interviewed for adult hospitalist jobs, and the pay seems to be between 200,000-250,000. The 200,000 was for a 0.7 FTE position.

That’s actually pretty similar to the peds hospitalist jobs I know of in the area and to many of the outpatient peds jobs in the area.

That being said, if you think you can both live comfortably in the Bay Area on just one of those salaries (especially if either or both of you have loans or if you live in San Francisco or if you want to ever buy a house) you’re in for a surprise.


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[tantacles]

That’s actually pretty similar to the peds hospitalist jobs I know of in the area and to many of the outpatient peds jobs in the area.

That being said, if you think you can both live comfortably in the Bay Area on just one of those salaries (especially if either or both of you have loans or if you live in San Francisco or if you want to ever buy a house) you’re in for a surprise.


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Oh, I don't think it would be comfortable to live on just one salary. But it would be manageable. My job allows me to work extra shifts and only starts at 10 shifts per month, so working just 15/month seems pretty great and would put us in a very comfortable position, particularly since we'll be doing income based repayment for our loans.

 

[tantacles]

How many hours?

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ten 11 hour shifts per month is the job I'll be working.

 

[tantacles]

Brief update!

My partner just got his first job offer! Full time job just outside of the city in a practice that he thought was fantastic. So no worries anymore! Thank you for all of the recommendations, and to those of you planning to go through this process yourselves soon, here are a few pieces of advice:

1. Use all of your connections and resources - SDN, reddit, and in-person contacts from medical school and residency (I guess I count as one of those since one of the interviews was a recommendation from my new boss . . .) have all led to interviews. If you're going to search in SF, don't expect a google search to show you the way barring a few recruiters. It seems that many practices in SF simply don't post jobs publicly.

2. Ignore people who tell you not to move to a particular area (in this case, SF). If you are committed to moving to a particular area, instead be dogged in your pursuit of a position. Always be open to changing your plans if life is a disaster, but work for your initial goal first. Many people who have never even lived in SF tried to dissuade us (even in this post!), and it's ok to remind them that you did not ask them for advice on where to live but "hey do you have any leads on jobs? I'm looking for a job, remember? Not advice on where to live!"

3. Be open to positions that are part time or per diem if you are committed to a particular location. My partner was able to find a benefitted, full time position, but that may not be possible for everyone, particularly if you have no contacts in the area. Do your best. If someone has a position that isn't great for you, still take the time and interview for it. That person may have another connection. My partner interviewed for a position an hour and a half outside of the city, and while it wasn't perfect, the recruiter met with him and had other recommendations for prospects within the physician group.

Again, thank you thank you to everyone in the thread who took a moment to provide leads insofar as finding a job in SF.

And, as alluded to in point 2, those of you who say we shouldn't move to SF because we'll never find a job and everything is expensive and life will be ****ty and the streets smell like pee and also did you know that SF is EXPENSIVE and BLAHHHHHH BLAHHHHHH BLAHHHHHH . . . Well, I have just one thing to say:

Neener neener neener, you're a big fat weiner.

Feel free to PM if you are thinking of moving to the Bay Area and looking for a job.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Congratulations! I’m glad he found something!


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[NurWollen]

Congrats!

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[TheSingularity]

Brief update!

My partner just got his first job offer! Full time job just outside of the city in a practice that he thought was fantastic. So no worries anymore! Thank you for all of the recommendations, and to those of you planning to go through this process yourselves soon, here are a few pieces of advice:

1. Use all of your connections and resources - SDN, reddit, and in-person contacts from medical school and residency (I guess I count as one of those since one of the interviews was a recommendation from my new boss . . .) have all led to interviews. If you're going to search in SF, don't expect a google search to show you the way barring a few recruiters. It seems that many practices in SF simply don't post jobs publicly.

2. Ignore people who tell you not to move to a particular area (in this case, SF). If you are committed to moving to a particular area, instead be dogged in your pursuit of a position. Always be open to changing your plans if life is a disaster, but work for your initial goal first. Many people who have never even lived in SF tried to dissuade us (even in this post!), and it's ok to remind them that you did not ask them for advice on where to live but "hey do you have any leads on jobs? I'm looking for a job, remember? Not advice on where to live!"

3. Be open to positions that are part time or per diem if you are committed to a particular location. My partner was able to find a benefitted, full time position, but that may not be possible for everyone, particularly if you have no contacts in the area. Do your best. If someone has a position that isn't great for you, still take the time and interview for it. That person may have another connection. My partner interviewed for a position an hour and a half outside of the city, and while it wasn't perfect, the recruiter met with him and had other recommendations for prospects within the physician group.

Again, thank you thank you to everyone in the thread who took a moment to provide leads insofar as finding a job in SF.

And, as alluded to in point 2, those of you who say we shouldn't move to SF because we'll never find a job and everything is expensive and life will be ****ty and the streets smell like pee and also did you know that SF is EXPENSIVE and BLAHHHHHH BLAHHHHHH BLAHHHHHH . . . Well, I have just one thing to say:

Neener neener neener, you're a big fat weiner.

Feel free to PM if you are thinking of moving to the Bay Area and looking for a job.

Um.....K.

 

[tantacles]

Um.....K.

YEAH! Your comments were so helpful before, and they STILL ARE! WOW!

 

[tantacles]

Here's a tip for you. Don't move to San Francisco. In San Francisco you'd be paid way below the national average, if you can actually find a job. You'd be taxed to death. You wouldn't be able to afford a house. Moving there is foolish.

Never had a chance to fully reply to this!

Both of our jobs pay far above the national average, so this platitude is one that I'd like to dispel. Different jobs pay different amounts. Perhaps if you're going to work in academics at UCSF, a place neither he nor I interviewed, you'll be paid below the national average, but my experience and my partner's experience with the multiple job offers we received was the offer we had in our midwestern low cost of living state was far worse, to the tune of $50,000/year or more worse, than the offers we received in San Francisco for similar (or in my case even better) jobs.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Never had a chance to fully reply to this!

Both of our jobs pay far above the national average, so this platitude is one that I'd like to dispel. Different jobs pay different amounts. Perhaps if you're going to work in academics at UCSF, a place neither he nor I interviewed, you'll be paid below the national average, but my experience and my partner's experience with the multiple job offers we received was the offer we had in our midwestern low cost of living state was far worse, to the tune of $50,000/year or more worse, than the offers we received in San Francisco for similar (or in my case even better) jobs.

It won't be a platitude when you file your tax returns and pay your housing costs. Furthermore, if you got offers in the Midwest that weren't as good as the offers you got in the bay area, after considering the horrendous taxes and cost of living in San Francisco, you must not have looked very hard in the Midwest. Enjoy your life in the bay area.

 

[DoctwoB]

As a surgeon going to Silicon Valley I can say that it’s a poor financial decision, but the right decision for me and my family. I had always heard the pay in the area was average to below, while COL much higher so I was pleasantly surprised by the pay I’m receiving (~80th percentile MGMA starting, likely > 90-95th after 2 years). With that income and a 2 physician household, it’s very doable, but obviously with less excess funds for other activities then if I lived in a lower COL area. Academic jobs in the area pay about average, which is poor when accounting for COL. But for me being in an area I love with family nearby is worth it. YMMV.

The cost is pretty bad. For a nice but not exorbitant house (say 3-4BR, 2000-2500 square feet, relatively recently remodeled) in a good school district, you’re looking at 2.5-3.5 million, which comes out to 10-17k/month housing payment with current low interest rates. One caveat is that you are investing in a potentially appreciating asset by buying, anyone who bought Silicon Valley housing at almost any point in the past has made a killing, which means even if they saved less for retirement they had a lot of value in the house itself. While it’s unclear if the future can continue to appreciate like it has in the past, SF and SV are actually quite cheap by world international city standards surprisingly, so who knows. It is of course risky to have so much of your net worth tied up in a single asset.

 

[NurWollen]

Never had a chance to fully reply to this!

Both of our jobs pay far above the national average, so this platitude is one that I'd like to dispel. Different jobs pay different amounts. Perhaps if you're going to work in academics at UCSF, a place neither he nor I interviewed, you'll be paid below the national average, but my experience and my partner's experience with the multiple job offers we received was the offer we had in our midwestern low cost of living state was far worse, to the tune of $50,000/year or more worse, than the offers we received in San Francisco for similar (or in my case even better) jobs.

I'm not sure 50k/year is enough to make up the difference in cost of living. But, sometimes we make life decisions for reasons that are more important than money. No shame in that. Congrats on finding what you were looking for!

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[tantacles]

I'm not sure 50k/year is enough to make up the difference in cost of living. But, sometimes we make life decisions for reasons that are more important than money. No shame in that. Congrats on finding what you were looking for!

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$50000/year pre-tax is around $30,000/year post-tax. So around $2500/month. If it doesn't make up the difference completely, it comes very close, and given that the hourly rate for extra shifts is far higher as well with our jobs, there is no financial reason for us to stay in the midwest.

 

[NurWollen]

$50000/year pre-tax is around $30,000/year post-tax. So around $2500/month. If it doesn't make up the difference completely, it comes very close, and given that the hourly rate for extra shifts is far higher as well with our jobs, there is no financial reason for us to stay in the midwest.

Awesome. The value of living where you want to live certainly outweighs any small financial penalty, even if there were one.

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[tantacles]

It won't be a platitude when you file your tax returns and pay your housing costs. Furthermore, if you got offers in the Midwest that weren't as good as the offers you got in the bay area, after considering the horrendous taxes and cost of living in San Francisco, you must not have looked very hard in the Midwest. Enjoy your life in the bay area.

My apologies, but your assessment of my individual situation falls more into the category of over-generalization. The offers I got in the midwest were comparable to those of my peers as were my partners' offers. As I mentioned, the difference in salary for both of our job more than makes up for the difference in cost of living. While I may not have mentioned taxes, those were also taken into account in my calculations.

Long story short, the Bay Area is an awesome place to live, and the salary, at least in my case, completely compensates for the cost of living increase.

Our story is an N of 1, but what I learned is that you should not give up looking for the job you want in the place you want because of discouragement. Search for people who support you and want to help you find a position.

 

[tantacles]

As a surgeon going to Silicon Valley I can say that it’s a poor financial decision, but the right decision for me and my family. I had always heard the pay in the area was average to below, while COL much higher so I was pleasantly surprised by the pay I’m receiving (~80th percentile MGMA starting, likely > 90-95th after 2 years). With that income and a 2 physician household, it’s very doable, but obviously with less excess funds for other activities then if I lived in a lower COL area. Academic jobs in the area pay about average, which is poor when accounting for COL. But for me being in an area I love with family nearby is worth it. YMMV.

The cost is pretty bad. For a nice but not exorbitant house (say 3-4BR, 2000-2500 square feet, relatively recently remodeled) in a good school district, you’re looking at 2.5-3.5 million, which comes out to 10-17k/month housing payment with current low interest rates. One caveat is that you are investing in a potentially appreciating asset by buying, anyone who bought Silicon Valley housing at almost any point in the past has made a killing, which means even if they saved less for retirement they had a lot of value in the house itself. While it’s unclear if the future can continue to appreciate like it has in the past, SF and SV are actually quite cheap by world international city standards surprisingly, so who knows. It is of course risky to have so much of your net worth tied up in a single asset.

My recommendation to anyone moving there initially is definitely to rent, despite the fact that renting is expensive, to learn the areas of San Francisco. Definitely good to learn the lay of the land before buying in an expensive area like SF.

 

[DoctwoB]

My recommendation to anyone moving there initially is definitely to rent, despite the fact that renting is expensive, to learn the areas of San Francisco. Definitely good to learn the lay of the land before buying in an expensive area like SF.

Always a good idea. Especially because in the Bay Area the rent to buy ratio is quite skewed. In most cities, like where I am now, if I rented my house I could cover my mortgage plus maybe more. But in SF or Silicon Valley a house that would cost 3 mil to buy (~14k/month 30year mortgage) might rent for 8k/month.

 

[Stone Cold]

I only interviewed for adult hospitalist jobs, and the pay seems to be between 200,000-250,000. The 200,000 was for a 0.7 FTE position.

Congrats on your partners new gig. Bay Area is a great place to live and work despite the high COL. I've seen folks take up insanely low pay to stay in some beach towns around SoCal and in comparison, the compensation in NorCal is way better

You mentioned a pay range of 200-250k for adult hospitalist. Is this straight out of residency or did you have previous work experience or a hospitalist fellowship?

Also, do you mind sharing the pay range of your partner as a peds hospitalist and is his gig towards gilroy or walnut creek if you're comfortable sharing that info. Lastly, did he find any opportunities in Kaiser or Sutter's east bay locations like San Ramon, Pleasanton etc either through recruiters or contacts

 

[tantacles]

Congrats on your partners new gig. Bay Area is a great place to live and work despite the high COL. I've seen folks take up insanely low pay to stay in some beach towns around SoCal and in comparison, the compensation in NorCal is way better

You mentioned a pay range of 200-250k for adult hospitalist. Is this straight out of residency or did you have previous work experience or a hospitalist fellowship?

Also, do you mind sharing the pay range of your partner as a peds hospitalist and is his gig towards gilroy or walnut creek if you're comfortable sharing that info. Lastly, did he find any opportunities in Kaiser or Sutter's east bay locations like San Ramon, Pleasanton etc either through recruiters or contacts

Straight out of residency for me. I would never do a hospitalist fellowship. Hospitalist fellowships are stupid and should exist on neither the adult nor pediatric sides.

He's not a hospitalist; he's doing primary care. I'll PM with more details, but the offer was somewhere between $200,000-$250,000/year.