Job Search Frustration

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

VeryHopeful2010

Clinical Psychology PhD
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
72
Reaction score
9
I've been searching for Assistant Professor positions for 6 months now - and am extremely discouraged. In the past 6 months, there have been only 3 positions available in my area (a major east coast city) that would be a suitable match. I am currently a postdoc and can do another year, but am disheartened by the few opportunities currently available in academia. Plus, I have not gotten one interview.

Just for background, I come from an APA accredited PhD program, an APA research-heavy internship, a grant-funded post doc at an academic medical center, have 10+ pubs (several first author), passed the EPPP.... I've had several supervisors review my CV and cover letters.

I'm starting to think that a career in clinical work may be best, given the increasingly challenging funding environment and general trend towards hiring adjuncts.

Is academia a dying field? Is anyone else feeling this way? :eek:

Members don't see this ad.
 
psycscientist - I think you are right, the geographic limitation is probably hurting me. I could consider going for a K award at this site... perhaps I should talk to my supervisor about that. Thanks!
 
If you're at all interested in staying in the AMC environment, that's really a good way to go. I know a few people who have been able to get on faculty track in the place they did their postdoc (myself included).

Are you only open to R1 and R2 universities?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The academic job market is horrible and will stay horrible for the rest of our lives. The academic job market is somewhat better for clinical psychologists than for persons in the humanities and the other social sciences. Most Ph.D's in those fields will never find a a tenure-track academic position. Even persons with Ivy-league PhD's in sociology, anthropology, literature, etc. are going to find academic positions very difficult to find and retain. However even for psychologists, the prospects of an academic career are slim. Clinical, counseling, school and industrial psychologists have the option of working outside of academe fortunately.

Here's what they didn't tell many of you in your graduate program. Higher education across the country is undergoing a massive and permanent restructuring. This is especially occurring at state universities who have discovered that hiring adjunct faculty rather than tenure track faculty will save them enormous amounts of money. Right now approximate 70% of ALL college-level instruction in the United States is being done by adjunct faculty. See the following http://www.labornotes.org/2013/05/adjunct-faculty-now-majority-organize-citywide and also http://inthesetimes.com/article/15080/mad_professors/. The latter site notes "Tenure-track faculty positions today constitute just 24 percent of the academic workforce, an all-time low, according to an April report from the American Association of University Professors (AAUP)." Think about that statistic for a minute. There are no conceivable economic forces that will even make this change.

In addition, technology is going to impact higher education to an ever greater degree and that process will never end! Various forms of online education are going to continue to grow and expand. State governments are going to ask why are they paying for 170 to 200 professors of history or anthropology or creative writing or whatever when web-based learning using MOOCS and other technologies can allow a state-funded higher education systems to educate the same or more people using 20 professors. Higher education costs have increased faster than inflation for decades. Why should a particular state continue to fund multiple state universities providing the same degrees in the same subject matter when a centralized institution can provide instruction across the entire region at vastly reduced costs with far fewer personnel? such a system would allow a state university system to track educational achievement and modify the system to maximize educational outcomes. The creation of a common but rigorous rubric would mean that the *value* of a particular degree would be reliable and valid, concepts with which we are quite familiar with. This would be "evidence based higher education. But in this new evidence based higher ed system, the traditional tenure track system will continue to decline..

The British discovered this in the 19th century when they had to run their empire across the globe. They devised a system of distance education based on rigorous exams administered by the University of London in which students studied independently and then passed exams that were graded according to a common rubric. The advantages of this system was that it was cheap and the persons getting the degree qualification had a common set of skills and competencies. The University of London system still offers these kinds of degrees today and after 170 years of doing so they are widely respected. See http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/ Most of the universities in the Commonwealth began as teaching sites where students would study for the U of L exams but the institutons themselves did not have degree granting powers. For the British, the result was a group of educated skilled professionals in India,, Australia, The West Indies, New Zealand etc .. who had been educated to a common set of competencies ... all in the era of the sailing ship.

This competency-based system has been rediscovered in the US as a way to maintain quality control over the educational product (degree holders) and vastly cut costs. The model has been introduced to this country in the form of Western Governors University which was invented by a coalition of state governments as a way to expand educational opportunities and cut costs enormously. See http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/350143/future-tuition-free-higher-education-reihan-salam Faculty in such as system do not "teach" but rather facilitate student's independent learning and oversee the examination process for each course. Students do not take "classes" by "semester" but move through as rapidly as they can take and pass the standardized competency based exams. Western Governors University has recently expanded into Missouri and Tennessee where the state governments are hoping to set up this kind of system in a trial basis to cut costs while concurrently expanding educational opportunities. http://www.tn.gov/governor/legislation/wgu-tn.shtml This means fewer jobs in academe and fewer professors. This process will only accelerate across time.

Higher education is rapidly pricing itself out of the market. And as much as people in academe like to believe that they are immune from market forces, this is extremely untrue. Higher education is like any other institution. It requires money to run and it has a market value. When that cost becomes too expensive, society ceases to purchase what it has to offer or the system creates better, faster, cheaper, ways of providing the same service more efficiently with fewer people. While universities play a role in the generation of new knowledge and there will always be those institutions with high endowments who will maintain a traditional structure, the landscape of most higher education could be very very different in 5 10 or 20 years. One of my favorite quotes is from the sci-fi show Babylon 5 where an alien character says "The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." Today a freshly minted Ph.D. seeking a traditional tenure track academic appointment is a pebble and the avalanche has begun. Regardless of ones opinions about this kind of education, its coming and it is and will be unstoppable. The best thing in my opinion is for persons seeking an academic job is to embrace these changes and find a place in this brave new world.
 
Last edited:
The geographic restriction is definitely a major (if not #1) limiting factor. Going for a K is a good plan, particularly if you have the stats to make it feasible. I personally feel much better about AMC positions than I do "traditional" psychology dept positions because you can more easily network and work across departments. I'm not sure if you would consider some % of clinical work, but it can help supplement your cost to a university/AMC.
 
In addition to the geographic limitation, another problem might be the location of the geographic limitation--there are many large East Coast cities where almost everyone and their brother wants to live, so positions there tend to be even more competitive. It's a lot easier to "sell" Boston or NYC than it is to sell North Dakota or Wyoming. Positions in geographically undesirable places are still quite competitive, but somewhat less so.
 
The folks I know who have had recent success have generally been in AMC settings, traditional psych departments have been increasingly difficult to get. I don't know anyone who has pulled it off being that geographically restricted in recent history, though I'm sure it happens. If you only had 3 places to apply to...I would be shocked if you did find something. Everyone I know who found a job was applying for more like 40 or 50. Academic jobs virtually require geographic flexibility...but that's almost always been the case.

I'm planning on going the post-doc and K-award route at present. There are pluses and minuses to it, with the big minus being the horrendous grant-funding situation at present. I think AMCs will persist a bit better than traditional university environments, at least for now. Can't really outsource science. Of course, depending on how politics evolves in the coming years it seems entirely possible the US will abandon science entirely in favor of lower taxes and military waste. I imagine many of us would end up moving overseas if that were to happen, but only time will tell...

Worst comes to worst, remember that a good clinical scientist is, to some extent, a jack-of-all-trades and the very nature of science means you have to be good at independent learning and able to quickly pick up new things. Statistician, clinical trial auditing, science writer, grants management, etc. Lots of relevant positions that utilize our skillset and that we generally don't do a good job of capitalizing on/marketing ourselves towards as a field.
 
Last edited:
Just a comment - the last 6 months is not really a good timeframe to have been looking in for traditional university professor jobs. You should start looking now and for postings over the next 6 months - this is now job posting season for academic gigs. Most of them will be listed by September with fall due dates for applications.

I think it is more open-ended within AMCs that hire from within - just pay attention to all of your deadlines for K grants, etc. The funding can take awhile even if you do get it.
 
The academic job market is horrible and will stay horrible for the rest of our lives. The academic job market is somewhat better for clinical psychologists than for persons in the humanities and the other social sciences. Most Ph.D's in those fields will never find a a tenure-track academic position. Even persons with Ivy-league PhD's in sociology, anthropology, literature, etc. are going to find academic positions very difficult to find and retain..

I am not sure if this sentiment is accurate. I have not looked very much into it, but remember coming across this source that states there is a greater number of sociology faculty (asst prof) positions than graduates each year. And I am not referring to that generic BLS data that says "this occupation is expected to increase, etc."

"A comparison between the number of positions advertised in the ASA Job Bank and the number of new PhDs in sociology suggests that there are more jobs than new PhDs or that demand exceeds supply. The number of new PhDs in sociology has averaged well under than 600 for the past two decades. In contrast, the number of assistant professor openings is now at least 600, and may be closer to 650 once open-rank positions are included. Adding post-doctoral positions and instructor positions yields a total of over 700 new positions even without taking nonacademic positions into account."
http://www.asanet.org/images/research/docs/pdf/Too Many or Too Few PhDs.pdf

Does anyone know how many doctoral-level psychologists graduate each year? Are those numbers even available?? I would be curious what that ratio (graduates: job) is like, esp. with all of the for-profit schools churning out huge number of graduates each year.
 
I

In contrast, the number of assistant professor openings is now at least 600, and may be closer to 650 once open-rank positions are included. Adding post-doctoral positions and instructor positions yields a total of over 700 new positions even without taking nonacademic positions into account."
http://www.asanet.org/images/research/docs/pdf/Too Many or Too Few PhDs.pdf

Does anyone know how many doctoral-level psychologists graduate each year? Are those numbers even available?? I would be curious what that ratio (graduates: job) is like, esp. with all of the for-profit schools churning out huge number of graduates each year.

The latest statistics I saw reported 115K doctoral-level psychologists in the US. In terms of recent graduates, we are churning out at least 5,000 clinical/counseling PhD/PsyD graduates each year (not including other related fields). Each year alone, about 4,500 apply for APPIC. This does not include all the doctoral level graduates in clincial/counseling that forgo APPIC (CAPIC etc) nor does this include other psychology PhD programs (neuroscience, school, cognitive/social).

The academic market is completely saturated and overly competitive. Getting a decent clinical job is incredibly tough too. I applied for clinical jobs and postdoctoral fellowships this year near a major metropolitan area. Even undesirable clinical postdoctoral fellowships were getting 200-300 applicants per spot. I spoke to the psychologists involved in hiring at the VA where i've trained and they informed me that they receive about 500 applications for each VA psychologist position that is posted in their VISN . These are VA hospitals that are in and also near major cities. Plus, they require apa internships so they are getting a high caliber applicant pool. It's not random people who are applying. I have one friend who is a VA psychologist and he has been trying to get into a VA that is located near a city/close suburb for 3 years now without any luck! He did internship and post-doc at the VA too. My supervisors at the VA got into my VA 5-10 years post-degree and generally transferred from other VA hospitals/prestigious settings. It's like winning the lottery. Someone else on this forum posted about a clinical position at the VA (this one wasn't near a city) that received about 500 applications as well.

In the meantime, the APA continues to accredit and re-accredit programs with very poor outcomes and ridiculously low match rates. The proliferation of unpaid postdoctoral fellowships in our field is just one indicator that we have failed miserably.
 
Last edited:
The academic market is completely saturated and overly competitive.

It is saturated and extremely competitive. As someone who went through it last year, I can attest to that. Of course, I can only speak for my experiences looking for traditional university, tenure-track gigs. It was incredibly stressful. You can make yourself an ideal candidate, and even then there are no guarantees. There is luck involved, although as someone who was geographically limited to one major city, I can say that advance preparation (i.e., lots of grad school pubs, grant writing, and teaching) and networking did help a great deal. But I could just as easily have struck out, and I know there are a lot of highly qualified people that end up disappointed. Internal politics also can play a role - sometimes people want to bring in people that they know and like, and that can give them an edge over the competition. I saw it happen at my institution on a search this year - one person within the institution putting in a good word for someone can be a difference maker. It mostly comes down to "fit" and filling a department need. Most people who get to the interview stage will easily meet these criteria - so after that it is likability/reputation, potential, etc.

Getting a decent clinical job is incredibly tough too. I applied for clinical jobs and postdoctoral fellowships this year near a major metropolitan area. Even undesirable clinical postdoctoral fellowships were getting 200-300 applicants per spot. I spoke to the psychologists involved in hiring at the VA where i've trained and they informed me that they receive about 500 applications for each VA psychologist position that is posted in their VISN . These are VA hospitals that are in and also near major cities. Plus, they require apa internships so they are getting a high caliber applicant pool. It's not random people who are applying. I have one friend who is a VA psychologist and he has been trying to get into a VA that is located near a city/close suburb for 3 years now without any luck! He did internship and post-doc at the VA too. My supervisors at the VA got into my VA 5-10 years post-degree and generally transferred from other VA hospitals/prestigious settings. It's like winning the lottery. Someone else on this forum posted about a clinical position at the VA (this one wasn't near a city) that received about 500 applications as well.

I guess I view the clinical job market as a comparable, but different thing for the most part (unless it is an AMC job with some research/teaching component, but I even view those jobs as quite a bit different from traditional academia).

In the meantime, the APA continues to accredit and re-accredit programs with very poor outcomes and ridiculously low match rates.

Yep, wonderful organization we have. However, I think their low standards and "inclusive" (to use a euphemism for being money driven) attitude is mostly affecting the clinical job market. I don't really see a faculty job at a FSPS as a real academic job, and graduates from those programs aren't typically competitive for academic positions.
 
Just a comment - the last 6 months is not really a good timeframe to have been looking in for traditional university professor jobs. You should start looking now and for postings over the next 6 months - this is now job posting season for academic gigs. Most of them will be listed by September with fall due dates for applications.

I think it is more open-ended within AMCs that hire from within - just pay attention to all of your deadlines for K grants, etc. The funding can take awhile even if you do get it.

I definitely agree with the above. The vast majority of positions for the fall would have had application deadlines somewhere between mid-October and mid-December.

It is definitely a frustrating process, especially since parts of the decision for each position may be completely out of your control and things you are unaware of. For various reasons sometimes the official job description is significantly different than what a department is considering or looking for. Most of the time the ad will give you the general picture, but if you are limited geographically, it can't hurt to apply for positions that have some things that you are looking for but are less-than-ideal in other areas. If you land an interview, you can get a better picture of how willing they are to deviate from their job positing. The worst that can happen then is that you don't get the position, no different than if you never applied.

I was briefly on the market before going another route for next year, but in that time I got an interview at an R1 university I felt I had no shot at yet was not interviewed for a post-doc my letter writers all agreed looked like was created specifically for me. You just never know with these things, but you only need one to work out.
 
Thanks to all of you for your responses, I wonder how many of these jobs are listed because of administrative rules (public universities must advertise all open positions in my state), but in reality the department already has someone in mind for the position. Given the high number of adjuncts floating around, I would not be surprised. I'm trying to find adjunct positions at local universities to get my "foot in the door" at these institutions.
 
Thanks to all of you for your responses, I wonder how many of these jobs are listed because of administrative rules (public universities must advertise all open positions in my state), but in reality the department already has someone in mind for the position. Given the high number of adjuncts floating around, I would not be surprised. I'm trying to find adjunct positions at local universities to get my "foot in the door" at these institutions.

I was actually going to post this exact same idea--one of the reasons it could be beneficial to apply for any and all positions for which you might be qualified is that there's generally no way to tell if the posting was created with a particular person in mind. Thus, while it might seem like a great fit for you, its posting might simply be a formality (and your not receiving a call-back would then not be related to your qualifications).
 
Top