Jobs Abroad

[deleted126335]

You are correct. I am not too xenophobic to take a job in North Korea if that's what it took to provide for myself and my family.

Then I assume that you have no problem with those anesthesiologists who supervise high numbers of CRNAs, train them to the best of their abilities, and exploit younger docs in the name of providing for their families.

To quote you: It's all business

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[deleted126335]

You edited your post to remove the phrase, "it's all business"

 

[ProRealDoc]

Holy f***

Do you realize that you have been incorrectly using the word "xenophobic"?

From Merriam-Webster online:


To denounce the refusal of these societies to extend basic human rights to their citizens is not to be xenophobic. It is to recognize the evil inherent in the regimes that run them.

Maybe you're being sarcastic about the North Korea comment, I can't tell. If you aren't, it is appalling that there is a price high enough to recruit you to the world's most atrocious and repugnant dictatorial establishment. You either lack full knowledge of the extent to which human rights are denied in the DPRK or you lack the foresight and ethical grounding to modify your actions and thoughts appropriately.

Apparently we seem to say one thing and do the other as we gladly extend basic human rights to some but not to others.

What human rights did we extend to the people of Iraq after we bombed and murdered many of their civilians?

 

[ProRealDoc]

You edited your post to remove the phrase, "it's all business"

Thanks. That is correct and it appears to be the reason underlying all the moves large american healthcare institutions and corporations are making by transferring or opening up new healthcare facilities in the middle east.

 

[deleted307836]

Apparently we seem to say one thing and do the other as we gladly extend basic human rights to some but not to others.

What human rights did we extend to the people of Iraq after we bombed and murdered many of their civilians?

I'm trying to figure out if this is really a reply to my post or if there was some kind of error that prevented you from seeing it in its entirety. If not there has to be some kind of fancy latin-phrase that denotes the fallacy of logic that this comprises. Otherwise, all I can do is quote pgg from earlier in this thread...

Dude, I don't even know what to say to that ... and I pride myself on having a smartass reply to everything.

 

[ProRealDoc]

Then I assume that you have no problem with those anesthesiologists who supervise high numbers of CRNAs, train them to the best of their abilities, and exploit younger docs in the name of providing for their families.

To quote you: It's all business

That's their prerogative. I don't agree with it and will call it out but it won't matter because it's all business.

 

[ProRealDoc]

PGG, please call these american companies and let them know you want them to stop their business ventures in Saudi Arabia immediately because it is a murderous regime. Also tell them to pull out all the american workers currently based there.


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[ProRealDoc]

I had a candid conversation with somebody in the oil business who spent time in Saudi Arabia. Asked him about his feelings. He had the guts to admit he was selling himself and to an extent betraying his values, and was doing it for his family. He didn't spout any amoral relativistic crap about respect for different cultural values, or refer to those that had a problem with what he was doing as "xenophobic".

At least be honest. Most of us sell ourselves, the difference is to who and what is the price?

I had no problem stating that I would be willing to go anywhere and do business with anyone in these countries. Right?

 

[deleted126335]

I had no problem stating that I would be willing to go anywhere and do business with anyone in these countries. Right?

Yup. And you were called out on it by people who find it offensive. Just like you call out anesthesiologists who engage in practices that you find offensive.

 

[ProRealDoc]

Yup. And you were called out on it by people who find it offensive. Just like you call out anesthesiologists who engage in practices that you find offensive.

Can you point me to where in this thread I called out anesthesiologists who are engaging in practices that I find offensive? If my memory serves me well, my post was about job oportunities in Saudi Arabia.

Did I, at any point in this thread, make any mention about anesthesiologists selling out the specialty?

 

[deleted126335]

Can you point me to where in this thread I called out anesthesiologists who are engaging in practices that I find offensive? If my memory serves me well, my post was about job oportunities in Saudi Arabia.

Did I, at any point in this thread, make any mention about anesthesiologists selling out the specialty?

No. But this thread does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[ProRealDoc]

No. But this thread does not exist in a vacuum.

OK, so you agree that I never deviated from the topic at hand and did not have the need to resort to old arguments to get my point across?

 

[deleted126335]

OK, so you agree that I never deviated from the topic at hand and did not have the need to resort to old arguments to get my point across?

If you call your own speech as "old arguments" I agree.

 

[ProRealDoc]

If you call your own speech as "old arguments" I agree.

Ok, that's good enough for me. Have a pleasant evening.

 

[deleted126335]

Ok, that's good enough for me. Have a pleasant evening.

Declare victory and go home.

 

[pgg]

You are correct. I am not too xenophobic to take a job in North Korea if that's what it took to provide for myself and my family.

Working abroad is now a survival tactic? You're telling me that you, a board certified almost-fellowship-trained anesthesiologist, are worried about providing for your family's needs in the United States? That healthcare reform is going to make physicians hungry or homeless?

I thought we were talking about a temporary gig to make oodles and oodles of cash, or someplace to go permanently to live like a king (tax free after renouncing US citizenship, of course).

If you could be so kind as to remind me where the goalposts are in your next post, that'd be nice.

Further, I find it amusing that you take issue with a job posting about saudi arabia and yet seem to forget the fact that many of our top notch healthcare facilities and a large number of american corporations are setting up shop in the Middle East.

[...]

So do me a favor PGG and call the CEOs of the above-named institutions and express to them your strong opposition in regards to setting up business ventures with these murderous regimes. Get back to me with their responses.

If they post job listings on SDN, I'll heckle them too.


Look, I'm fully aware that the US is heavily dependent upon Chinese stuff and Saudi (et al) oil. I'm not happy about it. There's only so much any of us can do to not purchase from them. They have us over a barrel, they know it, we know it. There's a certain amount of realpolitik that heavily influences our rational choices at this point.

In the meantime, I will be looking for job opportunities in North Korea.

At the risk of Godwin'ing this thread, would you have considered job openings in 1938 Germany? Is there a line you won't cross to provide that $500K+ income to your family?



Last, one of my initial and basic points has gotten lost in this mess. (Admittedly, I got distracted and didn't really expound on it.) And that is simply this: I find it disappointing and vaguely repulsive that an American, a person who was born here, who grew up here, who had the advantages of our nation's wealth stability and freedom during his years of education and training, would turn his back on the United States and flee to another country the minute things became a little less profitable. It honestly makes me a little sad.

The streets could be full of be zombies and/or people wearing re-elect-Palin-2016 T-shirts, and I wouldn't leave this country.

Can you point me to where in this thread I called out anesthesiologists who are engaging in practices that I find offensive? If my memory serves me well, my post was about job oportunities in Saudi Arabia.

Did I, at any point in this thread, make any mention about anesthesiologists selling out the specialty?

Heh. You're making a moral argument, and your final defense is b-b-b-but I said that yesterday ... ?

 

[pgg]

pgg, what the hell man?

I know you were mostly kidding at first but this has digressed beyond you. ProRealDoc threw an opportunity out there and you pounced. Again, not like you...

FWIW, I do feel sorta bad for stirring up this thread. PRD wasn't looking for a fight when he posted that job listing, and it was kind of rude to unload on him like that. I'm supposed to be putting out fires here, not lighting them ...

But some things are worth pissing people off about.

Regarding oppressive regimes in the world, who are we to judge?

We're the United States of America, that's who we are. We have a free press, the oft-exercised right to loudly bitch at our government for what it's doing and the power to substantially change that government every two years. We have the right to individually own guns. We have the right to be silent and not be forced to testify/confess. We don't have to put up with warrantless searches or government agents/troops squatting in our homes. Trial by jury, no cruel or unusual punishments, due process, "the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." The rest of the 14th Amendment. The 13th. The 15th & 19th.

We even go so far to extend some of these legal rights to un-uniformed enemy combatants captured in war zones and held outside our borders. (Sorta, eventually ...)

You're really comparing the government of the United States to those of Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, China, Venezuela, Iran?

The U.S.'s excersions around the globe these days is far from NON-brutal. And anyone who really believes we're in Libya (added to Afgahnistan, Iraq, special ops in Pakistan and Yemen (and I'm sure I'm missing some others) for humanitarian efforts is seriously delusional. Isn't this getting a bit Orwellian?? Maybe the willingness of educated, intelligent people to even toy with such opportunities is suggestive of the state of OUR affairs...

I don't particularly agree with how things were handled in Iraq or Afghanistan. Our foreign policy is not benevolent; it's driven by self-interest to a large degree. We're also responsible for a great deal of positive influence in the world.

The fact that you can write those things and not get disappeared at 2 AM by the secret police speaks volumes about how different the US is.

Regarding dependance on foreign oil, what about foreign manufacturing? Isn't self-reliance with regards to our heavy industries just as important? Is China really much better than Saudi Arabia in terms of it's freedoms? Than again, all of this talk is based on the concept of a nation state, which it seems may be on it's way out in the not so distant future.

Re: foreign manufacturing, I mentioned our "service-oriented" economy as part of our problem a few posts back.

China is not better than Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't go work for them either. I try not to buy stuff made in China. This is difficult, if not impossible.


Speaking of good books, ever read Neuromancer by William Gibson? That guy's vision of a dystopic future where the real power was in the hands of multinational corporations might turn out to be his most accurate prediction. After cyberspace, that is.

 

[BLADEMDA]

PGG,

ProReal is just finishing his fellowship. This means the "real world" and all its associated problems/costs/imperfections are staring him in the face.

Many of us face this problem daily: Compromise. You face it in the military as part of the structure. I face it daily in terms of poor Medicaid/Medicare reimbursement. Many MD/DO Anesthesiologists have turned to "QZ" billing as a result. Compromise.

A few years ago ProReal would have called those of us dealing with compromises of the real world "sellouts." Now, he is realizing it's "all business."

I wish ProReal and his family well as he embarks on his career. Similarly,
I hope you find a good gig after your military "sentence" is completed.

As for the Middle East it isn't for me or most of us. I would much prefer Australia or even the People's Republic of California.

 

[cfdavid]

FWIW, I do feel sorta bad for stirring up this thread. PRD wasn't looking for a fight when he posted that job listing, and it was kind of rude to unload on him like that. I'm supposed to be putting out fires here, not lighting them ...

But some things are worth pissing people off about.





We're the United States of America, that's who we are. We have a free press, the oft-exercised right to loudly bitch at our government for what it's doing and the power to substantially change that government every two years. We have the right to individually own guns. We have the right to be silent and not be forced to testify/confess. We don't have to put up with warrantless searches or government agents/troops squatting in our homes. Trial by jury, no cruel or unusual punishments, due process, "the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." The rest of the 14th Amendment. The 13th. The 15th & 19th.

We even go so far to extend some of these legal rights to un-uniformed enemy combatants captured in war zones and held outside our borders. (Sorta, eventually ...)

You're really comparing the government of the United States to those of Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, China, Venezuela, Iran?



I don't particularly agree with how things were handled in Iraq or Afghanistan. Our foreign policy is not benevolent; it's driven by self-interest to a large degree. We're also responsible for a great deal of positive influence in the world.

The fact that you can write those things and not get disappeared at 2 AM by the secret police speaks volumes about how different the US is.



Re: foreign manufacturing, I mentioned our "service-oriented" economy as part of our problem a few posts back.

China is not better than Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't go work for them either. I try not to buy stuff made in China. This is difficult, if not impossible.


Speaking of good books, ever read Neuromancer by William Gibson? That guy's vision of a dystopic future where the real power was in the hands of multinational corporations might turn out to be his most accurate prediction. After cyberspace, that is.

pgg, I agree that our Constitution affords us freedoms which so many people around the world do not have. I'm still here, typing away, not sitting on my hands with loud music blaring, waiting for my interogator to arrive (only after so many hours of sleep deprivation....) Believe me, I get that, and cherish it so damn much that I'm concerned that we may be losing some of our freedoms. Or at least I'm concerned about "forces" which, in my opinion, are working to lessen those freedoms, often using scare tactics and propaganda. Reasons for this would be a topic for a whole other thread.

I think this is a very very real concern. Relative to other countries?? Hell no. But, to some extent, our standar shouldn't be other countries, but our own sense of where we want, and ought, to be. The Patriot Act is so unbelievably Orwellian sounding (and I believe the content is as well) that it makes me shudder.

Regarding the economy, no I haven't read Gibson's book that you mention. One of the best books I ever read regarding the real economy, however, was Head to Head by Lester Thurow. Basically, he lists (and this was in the 90's) critical "key" industries which will be essential to the economic success of the 3 major trading "blocs" which he outlined. The U.S., Europe, and Asia. His premise is that those blocs who can succees in preserving or developing something like 8 or 10 critical industries would essentially prosper relative to the others.....

I think there are many reasons for the decline in U.S. manufacturing, which we've discussed in the past. What does concern me is the number of Americans who seem ambivalent to this. I feel that they really don't understand the consequences, which are not always felt immediately. It's a big deal.

Regarding what you suggest as the premise of Neuromancer, I do agree that multi-nationals (and I've never been a "hater" of success or money making) may indeed be running the show, and THEY do not benefit from the concept of a nation state. Free flow of capital, goods, and labor is what benefits "them". HOWEVER, nation states CAN reign in the multi-nationals with any variety of incentives, such that companies like GE and Catapillar (and all "them" who work for those firms) can indeed become better (or remain so) corporate CITIZENS.

Anyway....

 

[Quirk11]

Cfdavid, were you a consultant before? You always come in with these meta-analasyes like "whoah."

It does give me some comfort to know that the abroad options are there and are stable. I live near Canada now, and there are several people in my program who speak highly of Canada (being from there). It has two downsides in the future:
1) Double tax rate
2) Cold - although I have dealt with it before (it would make it tougher for you Southern guys - long winters aren't fun).

I will be taking either the Candian boards or Oz boards as well to have the backup option. I am also single and have nothing tying me down. Rural areas are what I love, so no problem for me there.

I often wonder going forward if the problems on these boards aren't all unique to anesthesiology (some are for sure). While I do think that certain fields have more stability and are better positioned (interventional radiology and neurosurgery), there are other fields that are worse off too.


The country is broke, and unless you have a successful business model, then you will also feel the pain. Vermont just started its own version of the public option which will surely make it hard for anyone in private practice to sustain it. I have a feeling that professions that are able to work in a market based model (ie dental specialists) will do much better in the future. Just browse through the specialities like emergency medicine, opthamology, etc on SDN. There is a fair amount of negativity re the future. Compare this to the dental specialties boards - no its not perfect their either, but there is not half as much concern or fear.

In my state, physicians from many specialties, even neurosurgery are becoming hospital employees because of numerous issues. In the future, private practice will be much less according to an accenture report. I expect more "mega health systems" and mergers. Where does anesthesiology stand in this system - hopefully we do okay. When we offer critical care and pain services I think we stand to have a comparable future to other fields.

I am no wizard or elder in this field, but if residents can get home for residency and live with family - maybe they can pay off most of their debt like me and leave some options open.

 

[ProRealDoc]

Not me; for millions I'll be on the first hijacked flight heading over there. I may not stay long, but I am DEFINITELY going. For billions I'll buy my own resort island getaway to indulge on booze and harems.

PRD, any idea how much Habib is paying?

Not sure how much. I sent them an email to inquire.

 

[ProRealDoc]

Cfdavid, were you a consultant before? You always come in with these meta-analasyes like "whoah."

It does give me some comfort to know that the abroad options are there and are stable. I live near Canada now, and there are several people in my program who speak highly of Canada (being from there). It has two downsides in the future:
1) Double tax rate
2) Cold - although I have dealt with it before (it would make it tougher for you Southern guys - long winters aren't fun).

I will be taking either the Candian boards or Oz boards as well to have the backup option. I am also single and have nothing tying me down. Rural areas are what I love, so no problem for me there.

I often wonder going forward if the problems on these boards aren't all unique to anesthesiology (some are for sure). While I do think that certain fields have more stability and are better positioned (interventional radiology and neurosurgery), there are other fields that are worse off too.


The country is broke, and unless you have a successful business model, then you will also feel the pain. Vermont just started its own version of the public option which will surely make it hard for anyone in private practice to sustain it. I have a feeling that professions that are able to work in a market based model (ie dental specialists) will do much better in the future. Just browse through the specialities like emergency medicine, opthamology, etc on SDN. There is a fair amount of negativity re the future. Compare this to the dental specialties boards - no its not perfect their either, but there is not half as much concern or fear.

In my state, physicians from many specialties, even neurosurgery are becoming hospital employees because of numerous issues. In the future, private practice will be much less according to an accenture report. I expect more "mega health systems" and mergers. Where does anesthesiology stand in this system - hopefully we do okay. When we offer critical care and pain services I think we stand to have a comparable future to other fields.

I am no wizard or elder in this field, but if residents can get home for residency and live with family - maybe they can pay off most of their debt like me and leave some options open.

The employment model will prevail in the end. Private practices will be a thing of the past once many large employers decide to take a penalty rather than provide private health insurance to their employees.

Millions of employees will be dumped onto the gov't healthcare plan and our reimbursement rates will be at medicare levels. Just give it time. It's coming.

 

[dhb]

You either lack full knowledge of the extent to which human rights are denied in the DPRK or you lack the foresight and ethical grounding to modify your actions and thoughts appropriately.

Or maybe people in the DPRK are more in need of MD's than in the USA??

 

[Arch Guillotti]

You are correct. I am not too xenophobic to take a job in North Korea if that's what it took to provide for myself and my family.

North Korea? I call bull malarkey on that one.

 

[deleted126335]

North Korea has bigger issues:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm

 

[dikoerastenie]

I am really curious to learn how much they pay. But the reason it might not be that much is that Germany is no less prestigious than USA. And a physician salary that might be enticing for Germany is much lower than what you would expect.

 

[path1finder]

proreal..wht do you do when a crazy dog barks on the street...You ignore it. Pretend that pgg is a crazy dog barking . I for one found ur post interesting .

 

[imfrankie]

I am really curious to learn how much they pay. But the reason it might not be that much is that Germany is no less prestigious than USA. And a physician salary that might be enticing for Germany is much lower than what you would expect.

They don't pay diddly. Couple years ago I inquired and it was about a buck fifty or so