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Just Another Thing to Consider...

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by 8744, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    And it's almost enough to get me to fire up the old blog again even though I have retired it....but my hospital, to save money on benefits such as medical insurance, disability, and the usual other minor things is contemplating reclassifying its resident as "Students" and not "Employees." The idea is that students can be paid a stipend but other than that, not only have no expectation of benefits but also have no legal recourse or protections.

    Now, I have a contract for next year so it probably won't affect me but I assure you that, given a choice, I would not have ranked my program as high as I did if there were no benefits. It is a free country and private organizations may do as they wish and pay what they want but it is a little unfair to the residents who have more than a year left and in subsequent years may have different contracts than the ones they expected to sign.

    My point: it may come to pass that by the time many of you reach residency, not only will it be a "student" position but it may be an unpaid one as well.

    By the way: My hospital receives $130,000 per year per resident from Medicare out of which our salaries (currently around $40,000 per year) are paid.

    Think about it.

    Blog article to follow in a few days. Screw it.
     
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  3. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Need I add that on every level, bureaucracies can not be trusted. I learned this at an early age and whenever you deal with any organization, no matter what happy, happy, we love you smoke they blow up your ass, if it's not in writing on your contract you may as well ignore it.

    I bring this up because of the inexplicable love and trust many of you have for your Alma Maters or "Duke" or "UCSF You've Got Me."

    (Duke, by the way, is particularly quick to throw its students to the wolves.)
     
  4. armybound

    armybound urologist.
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    That really sucks.
     
  5. punkindrublic

    punkindrublic calls shenanigans
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    So your hospital is considering doing away with medical coverage for residents? That has to be one of the most asinine things I've ever heard in my life. The biggest problem I would see is what you just said: who's going to rank a program (unless they're going into something like integrated plastics where pickings are slim and you take what you can get) where it's painfully obvious up front that they are nothing to the hospital?

     
  6. armybound

    armybound urologist.
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    if ALL hospitals do it, what are your other options?
     
  7. beachblonde

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    This is just more evidence that it's beyond absurd that NRMP is exempt from anti-trust laws, whereas the AMA is not.

    The medical education has its trainees by the short ones, doesn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the future residents will have to pay tuition for their training in addition to four years of medical school.
     
  8. FrickenhugeMD

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    Is this something you would think will spread nation wide? Is it possible to pay a resident nothing, even though they have an obvious cost of living (not forgetting loans that can no longer be deferred)? Are they reducing the benefits or just dropping them all together?
     
  9. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    They are "considering it" which is bureaucratese for "we will do it if we can get away with it."

    Whether they do it or not depends on a favorable court ruling. On the other hand, they don't have to give benefits so they could just declare that henceforth they will only pay the bare minimum required by law (workers comp).

    But mark me and mark me well. The real slight of hand is that currently the hospital pays 7.5% of our salary as their portion of FICA (and we pay the other 7.5%). This is a cost per resident of $3000 per year per resident. Stipends are exempt from FICA.

    In other words, take a hospital like Duke which has about a thousand residents. Not having to pay FICA would save them around $3,000,000 per year on top of what they would save from not having to cover the actual cost of other benefits. Saving is the same as making so that's three million profit on top of the fifty-thousand or so they clear per year per resident.
     
    #8 8744, Jun 3, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  10. flip26

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    Med students and residents have no power in the system. They are pawns, and the storm clouds are gathering (rising tuition and student debt, increasingly unfavorable loan terms, and declining physician compensation).

    And since there is no shortage of applicants for the available med school seats, nobody who has the power really gives a damn about our concerns.
     
  11. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Bingo. I won't do jack about it. I only have year left, am in debt a quarter of a million or so and have a job lined up when I get out of the "Big House." The hospital knows they have my gonads in a vice.
     
  12. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom
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    Congrats on the job. If you don't mind me asking, since you're going to enter your first job post residency, how are your finances looking with the initial salary and 250k in debt?

    I'm about to plunge into the same level and was just curious how things looked once you surpass residency.
     
  13. HanginInThere

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    Yes.

    But there's always a silver lining...

    Just when he thought he was out... they pull him back in.
     
  14. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    I still have a year of residency. And our finances are ridiculous. Not only do we have no money but our expenses (and we do not live a frivolous or luxurious lifestyle) outstrip my resident salary by about a thousand clams a month. It is only by virtues of juggling credit cards that we have kept the wolves away from the hut.

    Medical school with a large family? There is no way in hell I would do it again.
     
  15. WellWornLad

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    Are residents allowed to unionize? I know doctors are not, and since residents are (currently) working nominally as doctors, I assume not.

    If, however, residents were classified as students, would they be able to unionize as students? Grad students at my undergrad have their own union, and I remember one year when they raised a particular stink over stipends...

    Point being, if residents were able to organize it may be the worst thing the hospitals could do to themselves.
     
  16. Jolie South

    Jolie South is invoking Domo. . .
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    This crap kills me. I don't understand how under the pretenses of "teaching" it's ok to screw residents over. I've heard the debate about how longer hours = more cases = better training, but to cut out health insurance and eventually work towards no pay?

    That's idiotic.
     
  17. armybound

    armybound urologist.
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    well it's sort of a double-edged sword. residents refusing to care for patients puts patient in danger of not receiving adequate care. I believe that's something that might get a resident's license revoked

    on the other hand, a hospital would probably suffer bigger consequences if patients were put in danger, so.. they would probably want to prevent a strike more than the residents would want to strike.
     
  18. 8744

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    Residents are not allowed to form unions. Besides, since there is an endless supply of people who will "eat a poop hotdog" to get into medical school and for whom the idea of making twelve dollars an hour seems like a princely wage compared to any job they have previously held there is no chance in hell that residents will ever successfully organize to the point of going on strike or engaging in a work slowdown. There are plenty more where I came from and plenty of poor quality but legally qualified foreign graduates who would leap at the chance to get a good American residency if it paid half as much or even nothing.

    I am not joking when I say that the minute you sign on for medical training your gonads are clamped in a steel vice. It's just that since academic life prepares most people to be kiss asses and to believe the usual propaganda from their particular university, most of you don't realize it. The only option you have is to quit but I assure you that for most residents, this is not an option.

    As for the public, they don't have the slightest clue in general and if they do, they don't care. Seeing as the public has been conditioned to believe that a) medical care is a right and b) that doctors are all multi-millionaires the chance of swaying public opinion to the side of residents or practicing physicians is exactly zero. Man, if I had a dollar for every patient who looks at me smugly and says something to the effect of, "Well, you're a rich doctor..." I really would be a rich doctor.
     
  19. 194342

    Physician 7+ Year Member

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    That is rough. How do you reply if I may ask?
     
  20. nevercold

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    ?
     
  21. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Look at how the administration responded to the accusations against the Lacrosse team made by a drug-addicted prostitute who made up the entire story of rape to avoid being arrested for public intoxication and resisting arrest.
     
  22. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    YES. haha.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    I hope she and that "hooligan" Mike Nifong share the rest of their miserable lives together in a prison cell.
     
  24. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Um, there are more people seeking residencies than residency slots. 94% of US allo folks match, but there are other groups with less impressive match rates. As long as there are foreign applicants and scrambling, any residency can consider it a seller's market.
     
  25. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    My dear Girl, money (or beads, wampum, ivory, or whatever is the currency of exchange and power in a society to include "fat cat" privileges in communist worker's paradises) drives everything to the exclusion of every other consideration.

    Learn it, love it, live it. Nobody cares about you, your health, your welfare, or your pay except as these things impact your ability to make the hospital money and they would work you 168 hours a week if they could get away with it.

    Hospitals are perpetually strapped for cash and have a bottom line that better be in the black or the CEO is out of a job. They will find money where and how they can but as their options are limited, they will get it where it is easy first.

    A hospital, for example, can't cut the pay of a janitor or the lady who slops the hash in the cafeteria without starting a firestorm of controversy. Try to cut nurse's pay and you will have a nuclear war. But residents? Not only do they have no legal protection as far as working conditions (imagine mandating that a janitor lose a night's sleep every four days as a condition of employment) but the contracts we sign are a joke with no contractually stipulated penalties for the hospital for ****ing you and me over but plenty of language keeping us in check.

    As I said, they have our gonads in a vice. You know it, I know it, and they know it and apart form a little whining, nobody's going to do a thing about it except that I am going to contact the State Attorney General if my hospital tries to renege on my current contract, something that they can actually do because...and this is key...there are no damages specified in my contract that the hospital must pay if they are in breach of any or all of the contract. All it will cost them, they hope, is a little bit of shame but no real penalty.

    I cannot wait to get done with this mother****er. At least if I get screwed in the future it will be over a contract that I negotiated as an equal and not as a desperate medical student bound by the terms of the NRMP to go where I match and essentially be forced to sign whatever shoddy deal is offered.
     
  26. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    From my blog:

    I was a resident at Duke when the story first broke about the rape of an exotic dancer by the Duke lacrosse team, a story that now turns out to have been completely fabricated by a drug-crazed prostitute looking for some media attention and carried along by a crooked District Attorney looking for the usual votes, the usual race-hustlers looking for money and attention, and the completely spineless President of Duke University looking for the usual accolades from the likes of Al Sharpton as he shamelessly threw students whose interests he purports to protect to the usual wolves.

    The conceit and self-congratulation of the usual bureaucrats at Duke was, as usual, almost unbearable as they sought the usual remedies of the spineless which is the usual appeasement to people that most of us would usually tell to **** off. Oh man. They were so sure those guys were guilty. They reveled in their guilt, experiencing a pleasure that could only be described as sado-masochistic as they extrapolated the lies of a ***** to their favorite topic, the evils of White Men and their repressive society. And even as the truth came out, as it usually does, they cleaved to the story with a fanaticism as zealous as it was despicable,which is their usual MO, and to this day probably believe that even though no crime was committed, somebody, somewhere, still needs to pay for the usual sensitivity indoctrination and the usual pointless studies that will show, as they usually do, that rich white men are the Devil.

    The point? First, the President of Duke needs to resign and teach elementary school because it seems this is all he can handle. Second, the DA (Mike Nifong) needs to be prosecuted. Third, those three players need to sue the crap out of Duke and screw those weasels out of everything they possibly can.

    The fourth point? You can’t trust a bureaucracy. Ever. If somebody’s job depends on managing you, he will sacrifice you at the first sign of trouble to keep his job. This applies to corporations, universities, medical schools, residency programs, and every other bureaucratic organization.
     
  27. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    There doesn't need to be damages specified for you to have a viable breach of contract case. However you will need to prove damages. Meaning if you can't duplicate a 40-50k, 80 hour a week job, they will probably owe you the difference. Probably won't keep them honest, but it's not nothing. And you can still seek punitive stuff, but that would require a showing of bad faith, rather than having financial issues on their part.
     
  28. searun

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    Uh, so it really is not about "helping people?" It really is about "screwing people" and who gets the most the fastest. Crap, I really should have been a trout fishing guide in Oregon like I was planning when I was in high school. You meet a better class of people when you catch trout, or at least you meet a better class of trout than people. But I am one year into the sink hole, and I am meeting fewer and fewer trout. The quality of your life declines the less time you spend on trout streams. "I am haunted by waters."
     
  29. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Word. If your hospital could swing it and it would save money, they'd replace American medical school graduates with poorly-trained former goat-herders from Lower Eulopotamia medical schools, pay them nothing, jam them five to a call-room for living quarters, and let them cook their goat and rice pilaf on the roof.

    And then they'd bill it as a tribute to diversity to put a happy face on it.

    I have been a cynic my entire life and I have seen nothing yet to change my opinion. The only organization I could remotely trust was the Marine Corps but then, I didn't really ask much of them but pay and a shot at some action.
     
  30. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Whoa. I help people every day and conduct my own life with honor, integrity, and faith. But do I trust a large organization to do the same? No way.
     
  31. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    You miss his point. Being a physician is at some level about helping people. Being an administrator/executive is about helping the company/hospital, the stockholders and/or the bottom line. The interests are incongruent. The point of the latter group isn't screwing people, but some people inevitably get screwed when their interests don't coincide.
     
  32. nevercold

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    I was a medical student at Duke when the story first came to light. I followed each aspect of the case as it progressed, from the initial allegations to the evolving evidence to the deterioration of the case to the eventual disbarring of Mike Nifong. Here is what I observed:

    * At the outset, there was evidence that there was a party at a lacrosse house with underage drinking. This particular group of individuals had among them previous citations for underage drinking, noise disturbances, and being disorderly in public.
    * There was an accusation from a young black woman of rape.
    * Initially, little was heard from the lacrosse players other than one statement of "This did not occur."

    * The University did not declare them guilty or innocent. It expressed concerns about underage drinking at the party and expressed willingness to cooperate with the police. The president of the University sent school-wide email statements indicating that we should not rush to judgment either way and should let the evidence sort itself out.

    * Problems with the response:
    - The players claim that legal advice from the University was poor/misleading
    - The players claim that Duke Health was involved in the obfuscation of the rape kit results done by a SANE nurse in the hospital
    - The players claim that Duke had no right to cancel their season without a finding of guilt
    - The players claim that Duke should have been on their side from the start and that taking a neutral stance was akin to presuming guilt

    * Reasons for the response:
    - There are long-standing tensions between Duke medical center and the surrounding community based on a number of volunteer/community issues many years ago. The professional community and academic community at Duke is disproportionately white compared to the surrounding community.
    - The surrounding community overwhelmingly supported the accusations of the young woman and interpreted all support for anything Duke as a distinct sign of racism and an attack on that community.
    - The president's job was not to hasten the divide, but rather to prevent it from growing into a chasm that would further endanger students at Duke or that would compromise appropriate conduct of the investigation.

    Where Duke really did go wrong?
    - Not encouraging the players to seek out stronger legal advice sooner.
    - When noticeable questions about the evidence mounted and the community became aware of Nifong's mishandling of the case, the University did not become active in pushing justice and proper conduct of the law, despite the urgings of many at the Duke School of Law.
    - Whitewashing the obfuscation of the rape kit results.

    To those who think the president of the university should have taken the players' side immediately, I would propose three questions:
    1) What would that have done to the community reaction and the community relationship with Duke over the next 20 years?
    2) What evidentiary basis would the president have used to take their side at the outset of the case? (Keeping in mind that the exonerating evidence was suppressed by the police and Nifong until a month or more into the case.)
    3) What false statements did the president of Duke University make to the Duke community or the public in this matter?
     
  33. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Bull. Those guys were guilty from day one. The university tripped over itself in it's zeal to crucify these guys who, if they were engaged in underage drinking and hiring strippers were doing it completely off of Duke property and in their complete and total capacity as private citizens. At the very worst, Duke should have said, "This is a matter for the police to sort out and we're not going to jump to conclusions."

    A real leader would have said, "You know, my boys get a little out-of-control but if you're going to accuse them of rape, you'd better have a good case."

    Like you said, the University sacrificed the interests of the individuals to its institutional interests. (Community relations, inability to handle the heat from the community, etc.) The fact that the administration folded like a cheap suit at the first sign of pressure from the "community" shows that your precious university will, like I said, throw it's students to the wolves at the first sign of trouble.

    I just want to add that the idea that Duke students are going to be in danger from the pitchfork wielding villagers of Durham is ridiculous. If there was any danger it was the result of the usual race hustlers trying to stir things up.
     
  34. flip26

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    Your recollection is at odds with the timeline of events and in particular with the actions of the Duke admin and members of the faculty who most certainly presumed the lacrosse players "guilty until proven innocent."

    I got no dog in this fight, but the Duke admin/faculty definitely "took sides" early on, against the students.
     
  35. 8744

    8744 Guest

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    Bull. The presumption of guilt was inherent in the response as all across campus, seminars and "teaching moments" were organized to condemn an action that never even took place and, as I said, the usual suspects were shamelessly pandered to in a disgusting display of bureaucratic appeasement covered with a little thin sanctimony, a quiet aside, a barely heard admonishment that all those who are accused are innocent until proven guilty.
     
  36. 8744

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    ****ing A. Let me tell you a story. One day, many years ago when I was an infantryman in the United States By God Marines my mortar section and I were in the field at Camp Leonard Wood, an Army base, enjoying a brief smoke and coffee break from the rigors of infantry life. One of the Marines from the Machinegun section had made a little fire under his canteen cup to heat up his hot cocoa when, from nowhere, an officious little Army MP pulled up his jeep, strode over to the Marine, kicked his canteen cup over dousing the fire and yelled, "No open fires are allowed on the base."

    In about two seconds, several other Marines jumped the guy, dragged him into the woods, and gave him the educational thrashing which he so richly deserved.

    Later, the irate Army MP commanding officer showed up with our company commander and demanded to know which Marines, who as they were all heavily camoflauged and looked pretty much the same, had thrashed the guy who had run out of the woods and driven away for all he was worth. Not one of our Marines, even though mightily threatened with all kinds of penalties, professed to know a thing about it and I would have gone to the brig before I'd rat anybody out (not to mention that I had the good sense to turn my back and contemplate the clouds when I saw what was going to happen). Nothing came of it and after the Army left, my Company Commander allowed that, "The mother****er needed his ass kicked...carry on and don't be so rough on the mother****ers in the future."

    That's loyalty and caring for your subordinates.
     
  37. frikarika

    frikarika RADIOHEAD
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    shiiitttt, now I'm freaked out.
     
  38. SketchLazy

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    If you look strictly at the number of available residents for each residency position in the US, you can say that the supply far exceeds the demand when you include potential candidates from outside the US. But I don't think you can use that alone to assess the feasibility of forming a union. Most of the unions in existence now protect employees who definitely are not as educated or experienced as residents and are arguably even easier to replace than them. Despite that, these groups are able to form unions and negotiate contracts that are reasonably satisfactory. For example, the University of California is currently stuck in contract negotiations with the AFSCME which represents patient care techs and service workers in all UC hospitals. Patient care techs require at most a year of certification and service workers need little to no experience to get hired. This means that they should be even easier to replace than residents, but thanks to the power of their union and their ability to organize, the union has hung in there for about 10 months now while they negotiate a better contract for their workers. If this was really the main issue, we all would have been fired and replaced the next day by the many,many people who already have health-related licenses or service experience. Based on that, residents should be in an even better position to form a union because they are relatively harder to replace.

    In the end, I guess what I said doesn't matter because you said residents can't form unions. Is this a legal issue, or just a lack of organization?
     
  39. UVAbme2009

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    Excellent. How are you supposed to live with no salary? Not that your parents should have to support you, but mine couldn't even if they wanted to.
     
  40. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    legal. But all legal issues stem from a lack of organization because it takes group actions to enact laws.
     
  41. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    My favorite part of the entire deal is that one of the guys was videotaped at an ATM several miles away - where he said he was, when he said he was - at the same time that she said he was there raping her. Did they clear him immediately because he had an IRON-CLAD alibi? Nope.

    :laugh: Talk about rail-roading the guys into a case.

    Haha, just noticed in the Wikipedia entry that Nifong filed for bankruptcy when they sued him.
     
  42. Flopotomist

    Flopotomist I love the Chicago USPS
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    I am curious to hear more from Law2doc on this. I don't understand the inability to unionize.

    Also, if residents are reclassified as students, and not employees, it seems that the responsibility of the resident would then shift from care of patients (the responsibility of employees of the facility) to responsibility to learn (what a student is responsible for). Since learning does not require anything close to 80 hours per week of time in the hospital (and would in fact be hampered by it) could residents who were reclassified as students throw their hands up and force the attendings to provide all the afterhours care since they would be at home doing what students do - studying?

    Also what is the actual definition of an employee? I know that when I was an independant contractor, there were strict rules differentiating me from an employee. If I recall (L2D help me out here) if you dictate tasks that are to be done, the hours they are to be done in, and the location they are to be done in, you are an employee.
     
  43. Jolie South

    Jolie South is invoking Domo. . .
    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    oh, i get the bottom line. i work in corporate america right now.

    i just didn't realize it could go that far for residents. :eek: i mean the ability to pass up labor laws is amazing. in my company associated manufacturing facility, the illegals get better treatment than what you're describing.
     
  44. nevercold

    2+ Year Member

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    I challenge you to provide proof of that. What will you put forth, the ad signed by ~88 professors that many reactionaries condemned as convicting the lacrosse players? There were a handful - A HANDFUL - of professors who did openly express a belief that the players were guilty and their rush to judgment was wrong. However, the ad supported by that group of 88 in no way stated that the men were guilty. It was poorly worded, in my opinion, but fell well short of stating their guilt. The administration NEVER EVER issued a statement suggesting that they believed the players were guilty. I read through all those damn mass emails. What the administration did say was that the lacrosse players had a longstanding history of breaking campus rules, including this case of underage drinking.
     
  45. nevercold

    2+ Year Member

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    You use a lot of adjectives and provide very little substance, hoping that infusing the statement with enough fancy tone and color will be taken as truth rather than just as your personal attitude towards the topic.

    In the early stages of this case, the campus was very divided, but over time most people shifted their favor towards the players' story, faculty and students alike. The group that thought the players were guilty began as a large minority and quickly progressed towards a very small minority.
     
  46. nevercold

    2+ Year Member

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    By the way, residents can unionize in some places, if not all. They can unionize in California at least.
     
  47. MrBurns10

    MrBurns10 Excellent, Smithers
    Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

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    I have to say that just because you were a "miserable" resident for one year at Duke that your opinions and accounts of the lacrosse case are likely biased and largely unfounded. True, Duke did not do everything right in this case...but this was an unprecedented case. They did not come out publicly to "fight for the players" because how would it look if she turned out to be telling the truth? Duke would be charged with looking after their own weathy, white students at the expense of a poor black woman. Isn't that what Duke as a university got crapped for in the media for almost a year? Duke has a policy that was in place LONG before the lacross case that any student who is charged with a felony will be suspended not because of presumed guilt but for their own safety. They simply did what was in their constitution. Besides, I agreed with President Brodhead then to cancel the season (again, for the players safety...can you imagine what it would have been like for those guys to play on the road??), and I still agree with him today.

    You told an irrelevant story of your time in the Marines. I will tell you what I believe to be a relevant story from just this past year, my first in med school (I was an undergrad here before). A classmate of mine was accused of rape. The med school supported him and took the publicity "hit". They informed him that he should not come on campus (again, for his safety) but allowed him to continue taking classes and tests. As soon as the case was thrown out (another bogus claim), he was welcomed with open arms. My classmate consistently told of how much support he got during that difficult time for him and that he was thankful they let him continue his courses.

    I have a very strong feeling about the lacrosse case because I've been at Duke a very long time. I hope that with your opinions you can maybe, just maybe, acknowledge that you may not be the best source of info and not make unfounded, sweeping accusations against Duke all the time. We realize you were miserable here. Most people like it just fine, and some, amazingly, like it enough to stick around for several more years.

    I hope we can get back to the important issue about which you first posted.
     
  48. Cardiac

    Cardiac Full of Love
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    .
     
    #47 Cardiac, Jun 3, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2009
  49. ineedsleep

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    Glad you are back, Panda.

    Wish there wasn't a need for it.
     
  50. thebeatblitz

    5+ Year Member

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    nevercold, I was an undergrad at the time of that BS, and I knew the players. The second the accusations broke, the usual protesters started their candlelight vigils and practically the entire black population from state and central came down in force. It was what, two days (?), until Jesse Jackson was down here paying for that stripper's future tuition? The next day, the Chronicle (ugrad newspaper) had letters from faculty members decrying these bastard lacrosse players as rapists and criminals.

    Brodhead, of course, was a huge, acquiescing pansy and folded under the pressure. I wish I still had that joke of an e-mail he sent out to everyone. Joe Alleva (Duke AD) conveniently axed Pressler almost immediately.

    What a joke of a situation. N=1 and I'm obviously biased, but I completely agree with Panda's assessment. Last I heard, the few teachers that wrote in to the Chronicle conveniently found other teaching positions, Duke settled for a crapload of $$$, and Dave is at JPMorgan.

    Spineless idiots; LSU, I hope Alleva doesn't crap all over you guys too.
     
  51. MilkmanAl

    MilkmanAl Al the Ass Mod
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    I was at Chapel Hill during the whole ordeal and had many friends at Duke, some of whom were at the party. Panda's account is pretty accurate, as far as I can tell.
     

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