just how competitive are the top IM programs

[bowelprep]

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don't want to generate too much controversy here but.... For those who are in the know I was wondering just how competitive top IM programs tend to be...(e.g. mass gen, USCF, hopkins, or places such as stanford, columbia, etc). Anyone specifically know stats for people who interview/match? From what I hear some of the programs have step 1 avgs in the 240-250s! just trying to gauge my level of competitiveness or more likely lack thereof 😉...

For those who care to comment...(I know some people hate doing this after all those pre-med "what are my chances threads"..but don't we all want to know??) anyways I go to a top 10 med school, have step 1 in the mid 230s and have a few honors, the rest high passes including 3rd year IM).

Well just wondering. if anyone has some general data or sense it would be great to hear your comments😀

 

[Tapout]

Honor an early sub-I and count yourself in the running. So much more goes into the top IM programs than your Step 1-2 scores. Well-roundedness (research, MPH, whatever have you) and how well you leave an impression on those you meet on interview day are the most important aspects of the process. Don't get hung up on scores and who went where b/c they got a 299 and so-and-so didn't get into Hopkins with a 300. Be calm, have fun and let your personality shine (assuming you have one🙄). Good luck with the hunt.

 

[MGKatz036]

Agree with above...

also, from a more general perspective... honestly, should your self-perceived or externally assessed "competitivenesses" influence your application process? of course not. you should apply to every program that you ever dreamed of getting into.

The only bad advice i got during the whole application process was from people that told me to limit my applications. In the end, I applied to my "dream" program and they ended up ranking me in a position that I matched. Everyone was happy....

Keep in mind, you can apply to 40 programs on ERAS and it will still cost you less than the suit you'll wear to the interview.

 

[bowelprep]

thanks for the advice. I will definitely apply to the top ones even if I have a lower chance... I just have heard sometimes they screen people out (say if they didn't get honors in their M3 IM rotation or something, or board scores > a given #) and was wondering if that was true. That being said, I don't want to apply to 40 schools...that seems excessive. Do you guys have any recommendations for say reach/chance/safety programs? I know the process can be random but how would I even know whether say a school like Columbia, Duke, U chicago, Northwestern, etc etc are considered chance/reach schools? I mean do you really think I should apply to tons of schools and then just narrow it down once I get interviews? Thanks again for all the info!!!

 

[atsai3]

I just have heard sometimes they screen people out (say if they didn't get honors in their M3 IM rotation or something, or board scores > a given #) and was wondering if that was true. That being said, I don't want to apply to 40 schools...that seems excessive. Do you guys have any recommendations for say reach/chance/safety programs? I know the process can be random but how would I even know whether say a school like Columbia, Duke, U chicago, Northwestern, etc etc are considered chance/reach schools? I mean do you really think I should apply to tons of schools and then just narrow it down once I get interviews? Thanks again for all the info!!!

Sounds like your student dean and/or your IM attendings need to be much more involved in advising you in your application process. If they are up to date on what types of students from your school apply to which programs and are accepted for interviews, etc. then this is all information that they should be able to provide to you.

I don't know anything anecdotal about programs screening on the basis of Step 1 scores (although I'm sure there probably are programs that do), but certainly there are programs that screen on the basis of clerkship grades. To give you one example, I did a visiting sub-I at Duke because I was initially interested in their med/psych program. I was told that my application would have been screened out -- you have to be acceptable to both the IM and psych programs -- because I didn't get honors in my third year IM clerkship. However, there were two things that helped put me back in the running: I did get honors in my sub-I, and I did very well in my visiting sub-I. Nothing systematic (N=1), but hope this helps.

-AT.

 

[gutonc]

Nearly every program has some sort of Step 1 cut-off. That may be a very high or low cut-off depending on the program but if you get >1000 apps for 45 spots, you have to start somewhere and this is an easy, if flawed way to do it. After that, there are plenty of places that won't look @ you w/o honors in your IM clerkship and sub-I (and many more who won't interview you if you dn't at least have high pass in both of those). As mentioned above, doing an away @ some (not all...UCSF and the HMS programs are notorious for this) places may get you over that first hurdle, but may not.

Anecdotal evidence on this subject is abundant, systeatic evidence is non-existent (aside from the Step 1 cut-off which most PDs I've spoken with acknowledge), so take all advice w/ a grain of salt. In the end, if you think you want to go to a place, then apply. All you've got to lose is $10 and 45 seconds of your life spent clicking boxes in ERAS.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Our school doesn't give "honors" and now we are no longer ranked...I will end up with an A (i.e. > 90) for the MS3 medicine rotation. So, am I screwed b/c my application won't say the word "honors" even though I aced the rotation?

One more thing, how important are away rotations in IM. My board scores are very strong, but I am not, nor will I be, AOA. Should I rotate at the place I want to go? Furhermore, is it required to rotate in an area you want to end up? i.e. If I rotate in NY will this effect my chance of matching west coast? If so should I rotate both? Lastly, is there a certain window period in which my externship apps should be locked in...I haven't even sent off any apps yet.

Our student advisor is worthless and has cancelled on me and several other classmates the day before we had scheduled appointments...🙁 Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

[indiamacbean]

I don't think that it's necessary to rotate. I didn't do any away rotations and was coming from a good though not amazing school. I matched in Cali at a top program and also got "the call" from the top programs in the south, boston, and midwest. I don't think you should worry too much about geography. It sounds like your application is strong and maybe an away could hurt you? I was just nervous to sign up to go to a place I didn't know on what was effectively a month long interview. probably other people have different thoughts.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

What does "the call" mean?

 

[werewethere]

What does "the call" mean?

Beats me, I thought he was referring to programs interested in him, either via interview or through post interview phone call.

 

[indiamacbean]

"the call" that I was referring to is a phone call from the PD or interviewer telling you that you are ranked to match after the committee ranks their candidates. I actually think that the post interview games playing among applicants and candidates is the worst part of the process. I wish that there was no communication as it just seems to confuse things.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Seriously?!?! They sometimes call people to tell them they're ranked high?!?! So if you don't hear from a program, it's less likely you're ranked high? Or do some programs just not do that? One of my friends got a letter from one of the places he interviewed saying that they really liked him, etc, and he ranked them #1 and didn't get a spot. Maybe letters carry less weight than calls? Do you have any sense as to what percent of programs call applicants to encourage ranking them high?

 

[indiamacbean]

Yes, they call and they email. But the truth is that this communication should play NO role in how you rank the program. Yes, it feels nice if Harvard calls but that doesn't mean you should rank them higher than a program you actually want to go to. The only case where I think communication may have an impact is if you tell your number one program before they make their rank lists that they are your number one. I am not sure if this helps but it may. I actually would avoid communication as much as possible because it seemed like some of the communication I got was very much a fishing expedition trying to feel out where I was going to rank their program. As to the letter vs the call, you can never tell who is lying to you or trying to mislead you until after match. Just because a program says "we like you very much, you are an impressive applicant and we would like to work with you next year" this doesn't mean they are going to rank you. Until a program up and says "you are ranked to match", I don't think it really means anything and even then it is suspect info until match day. Don't worry about all this. go on the interviews, rank the programs you like in the order you like them and then just be happy on match day. trust the match, it works.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Yea, I would prefer no communication either...well, considering I haven't even taken step 1 yet, I guess worrying about getting/not getting a call from a program is a bit preliminary! 🙂 Thanks for the heads up, though...