Just how "holistic" are top med schools when selecting applicants?

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axel345

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I keep seeing and hearing the same thing over and over whenever I listen to a med school panel or talk to admissions people. They say that they take a holistic approach when looking at applicants.. But their numbers seem to say otherwise. Almost everyone I know that got into a top20 school had a 3.7+ and above a 32.

The only exception is a friend of mine who's Mexican. He had like a 3.4-3.5, 4 years of research w/ 1 pub, average MCAT, got into UCLA UCD Meharry and Weil-Cornell

Do med schools mean it when they say theyre "holistic", or do they just place primary emphasis on metrics and then move on to the other parts of the app?

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Most pre-meds seem to interpret "holistic" as "we'll ignore your poor stats". It doesn't doesn't work that way.

Holistic means that your app will be looked at beyond mere metrics of stats.

But all applicants need to keep in mind that it's a seller's market, and top schools get top applicants.
 
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3.7 and 32 is pretty damn low. so I'm not sure what you mean that they are not using holistic methods.
going 4.0 and 38 is more of simply using grades.
clearly by going down to 3.7 32 they are incorporating a lot of other aspects of the application

your friend is URM. another "holistic" aspect lol
 
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"The top 20 are holistic" really translates to "the top 20 require high numbers and strength elsewhere/good ECs".

Numbers alone won't get you in if the rest is weak, but numbers (particularly MCAT) are the primary driver of whether they look at you closely to begin with.
 
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I keep seeing and hearing the same thing over and over whenever I listen to a med school panel or talk to admissions people. They say that they take a holistic approach when looking at applicants.. But their numbers seem to say otherwise. Almost everyone I know that got into a top20 school had a 3.7+ and above a 32.

The only exception is a friend of mine who's Mexican. He had like a 3.4-3.5, 4 years of research w/ 1 pub, average MCAT, got into UCLA UCD Meharry and Weil-Cornell

Do med schools mean it when they say theyre "holistic", or do they just place primary emphasis on metrics and then move on to the other parts of the app?

I want you to imagine this:

You have 50 medical school spots available at your top school. You know that whoever you accept is likely to come. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that your stats are stacking up like this:

You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.8-4 and MCATs between 515-530. (Group A)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.6-3.8 and MCATs between 510-520. (Group B)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.4-3.6 and MCATs between 508-515. (Group C)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.2-3.4 and MCATs between 500-508. (Group D)

In each group, about a quarter of the applicants have stellar extracurricular experiences, half have average (similar to everyone else in your application group) experiences, and a quarter have extracurricular experiences that don't match up.

Doing the math, you have 125 people from Group A you already want to interview. They have great stats and extracurricular experiences, so "holistically," they're absolutely fantastic applicants. Of those 250 people in group B with amazing stats and average extracurriculars, you decide you want to just interview 50 of them.

Do the same for all of the groups, and you have a total of around 700 people you may want to interview for a total of 50 spots. However, you already know that you're more likely to take a stellar person from group A than from group C or D, so you may dismiss a good number of the stellar group C and D people.

After the interview, you figure out that only about 75 people from group A met your expectations, so you accept all of them. 75 from each other group met your expectations and you'd like to accept them, but you want to prioritize the prospective students from group A because, holistically, in other words, including both their stats and their extracurricular activities, they are superior to those in the other groups, so you accept a few from the other groups.

To make a long story short, holistic doesn't mean "ignoring stats." It means taking the whole application into account when making decisions. This means that people with high stats continue to have a leg up no matter what you do.
 
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1) You are assuming that holistic means that numbers dont matter; they do especially when the top schools will easily get over a 1000 applicants with 3.8/32 or higher . It means that not only numbers matter. Usually achievers of that nature have the other pieces in their application
2) the "fairest" (ie most "blind" and objective process) school that I know of is a top research school. Its process was setup as much to keep the influence of weighty professors from skewing the system, as it was for getting more than a class of geeks/nerds each time.

I'm really curious which school you consider to have the "fairest" process


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Most pre-meds seem to interpret "holistic" as "we'll ignore your poor stats". It doesn't doesn't work that way.
We've all been there.

IMHO, the word "holistic" simply meaning admission can use many ways to evaluate your app.
For those who have high stats, "holistic" means you also need stellar ECs
For those who have stellar ECs, "holistic" means you also need high stats
For those who have both, "holistic" means you also need a stellar PS
For those of you who have stellar PS, "holistic" means you also need stellar secondaries.
 
Your application consists of:
GPA
MCAT
personal statement
letters of recommendation
Research Experience
Clinical Experience
Other non-clinical/non-research experiences
Your answers to all the questions on the secondary
All the interview stuff

1 thing up there is an objective comparison between applicants and it therefore gets amplified, but everything gets looked at. It is extremely naive and shortsighted though to think 1 or 2 stellar EC's is going to be the be all change all in an application though
 
If admissions weren't holistic, the average GPA at all med schools would probably be a lot closer to a 3.9-4.0 LOL. They have enough apps to fill their class with just straight A students.
 
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I remember at one of the schools I interviewed at, they said "everything looks good, but your undergrad GPA is too low and adcoms won't be sure if you can complete medical school curriculum." I was like "but I just did an SMP where I completed first year medical school curriculum." Them: "yeah but we're unsure if you can complete med school curriculum because your undergrad GPA is so low."...
This school has < a 100% retention rate first year, yet turns down students who just finished the first year of med school.

"Holistic" my a**, your numbers are branded to your forehead during this process. Plus they didn't know what an SMP was.
 
I remember at one of the schools I interviewed at, they said "everything looks good, but your undergrad GPA is too low and adcoms won't be sure if you can complete medical school curriculum." I was like "but I just did an SMP where I completed first year medical school curriculum." Them: "yeah but we're unsure if you can complete med school curriculum because your undergrad GPA is so low."...
This school has < a 100% retention rate first year, yet turns down students who just finished the first year of med school.

"Holistic" my a**, your numbers are branded to your forehead during this process. Plus they didn't know what an SMP was.
I have clinician Adcom colleagues who also don't understand the concept of our own SMP, and thus ding our our SMP students! So it's not unique to the school you dealt with, Pokie. Fortunately, the rest of our Adcom knows better and rescues our own candidates.
 
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I remember at one of the schools I interviewed at, they said "everything looks good, but your undergrad GPA is too low and adcoms won't be sure if you can complete medical school curriculum." I was like "but I just did an SMP where I completed first year medical school curriculum." Them: "yeah but we're unsure if you can complete med school curriculum because your undergrad GPA is so low."...
This school has < a 100% retention rate first year, yet turns down students who just finished the first year of med school.

"Holistic" my a**, your numbers are branded to your forehead during this process. Plus they didn't know what an SMP was.

whoa thats harsh, sorry to hear that :/
 
I want you to imagine this:

You have 50 medical school spots available at your top school. You know that whoever you accept is likely to come. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that your stats are stacking up like this:

You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.8-4 and MCATs between 515-530. (Group A)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.6-3.8 and MCATs between 510-520. (Group B)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.4-3.6 and MCATs between 508-515. (Group C)
You have 500 applicants with GPAs between 3.2-3.4 and MCATs between 500-508. (Group D)

In each group, about a quarter of the applicants have stellar extracurricular experiences, half have average (similar to everyone else in your application group) experiences, and a quarter have extracurricular experiences that don't match up.

Doing the math, you have 125 people from Group A you already want to interview. They have great stats and extracurricular experiences, so "holistically," they're absolutely fantastic applicants. Of those 250 people in group B with amazing stats and average extracurriculars, you decide you want to just interview 50 of them.

Do the same for all of the groups, and you have a total of around 700 people you may want to interview for a total of 50 spots. However, you already know that you're more likely to take a stellar person from group A than from group C or D, so you may dismiss a good number of the stellar group C and D people.

After the interview, you figure out that only about 75 people from group A met your expectations, so you accept all of them. 75 from each other group met your expectations and you'd like to accept them, but you want to prioritize the prospective students from group A because, holistically, in other words, including both their stats and their extracurricular activities, they are superior to those in the other groups, so you accept a few from the other groups.

To make a long story short, holistic doesn't mean "ignoring stats." It means taking the whole application into account when making decisions. This means that people with high stats continue to have a leg up no matter what you do.

Wow, now this really put things into perspective. Thanks
 
whoa thats harsh, sorry to hear that :/
Let's just say I know their school's step 1 average, and it's a big motivating factor to beat it... I hope they enjoy losing out on a lifetime of donations because they accepted another marginal candidate who didn't do an SMP, and probably failed out instead of me. :) And I will gladly donate to my alma mater in the future :)
 
Did you at least get another, less dumb-ass school to accept you?


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Did you at least get another, less dumb-ass school to accept you?


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Yes I just finished 2nd year, passed everything, but that school that rejected me was in my home-city (like ~15 min drive from my house), so with in-state tuition and knowing the school/area I definitely would've gone there. That was my first application process and I was absolutely heartbroken after it. I reapplied to 41 schools pretty much everywhere in the country hoping that 1 school would bite, and got into a private OOS school, so I'm paying out of the a** for tuition in a city I'd never even been to before. But it's good to have memories like that to drive me. :)
 
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