Just say "No" - to being a preceptor

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
P

PharmacistX

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
The only way a new school of pharmacy can open up is if they can demonstrate to the ACPE that they can find enough preceptors to take their students.

No preceptors = no new School of Pharmcy. Schools of Pharmacy are looking two hours from their locations to find preceptors now.

Schools tend to list all pharmacies in a two hour radius to obtain Pre-accreditation status. If you want to take it a step further write/email ACPE and tell them you will not be a preceptor and that the pharmacy where you work should be removed from any "capacity" list that a School of Pharmacy has provided.
Members don't see this ad.
 
what if they paid you huge bucks? or what if the school paid your company huge bucks and you were required to precept or else lose your job?
 
What is the point of all those "What ifs"? None of them are going to happen. Might as well say What if a tidal wave came along and washed away all the pharmacies....
 
Members don't see this ad :)
i know several pharmacists who have no choice but to be a preceptor - it's company policy. or they can just lose their job if they dont wanna precept. so yeah, it's a valid point. i really doubt any pharmacist would turn down precepting to make a point if their job was on the line. but if they could turn it down without harming their own position, then yes, it's a great idea.
 
So, who are ya, really? New account means your old one prob got banned.
 
It works in theory, but not in practice. The schools are going to open whether you like it or not, until market demands clearly put a stop to it. Stamping your feet isn't going to change a thing.

In all honesty though, I think you're missing the point. A preceptor serves to educate pharmacy students, not judge students based on where they go to school. As a preceptor for "Top-Tier School X", would you refuse to help educate a student from "School du Jour Y" who is doing a rotation with your colleague who is a faculty member at the new school? Who does that benefit? It just breeds an air of superiority and unfairly places the blame on a student who just wants to learn.

I've seen this happen both ways - I've done a rotation at a site where most preceptors were affiliated with a brand new school, and even though I wasn't officially "their" student, they were more than willing to take the time to help me out. Likewise, my preceptor was more than willing to educate students from the new school. I work at a hospital that routinely takes students from four schools, three of which are new in the game. No one cares what school you come from once you're there - everyone gets the same treatment.

If you intend to work any differently, you're setting yourself up for a very difficult career.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
I've seen this happen both ways - I've done a rotation at a site where most preceptors were affiliated with a brand new school, and even though I wasn't officially "their" student, they were more than willing to take the time to help me out. Likewise, my preceptor was more than willing to educate students from the new school. I work at a hospital that routinely takes students from four schools, three of which are new in the game. No one cares what school you come from once you're there - everyone gets the same treatment.

If you intend to work any differently, you're setting yourself up for a very difficult career.
Click to expand...

Same experience here. I've been "taken in" by preceptors who traditionally precept students from the older established school, but since our faculty came from that school in large numbers, school affiliation didn't really matter. There was more individual faculty loyalty than actual school loyalty going on, so I felt comfortable and supported.
 
You cannot really affect established schools much by refusing to precept students, but you can affect planned new schools. They have to demonstrate that they have enough preceptors and rotation sites to the ACPE or they will not recieve Pre-Accreditation status which allows them to recruit students.

No preceptors = no new school.

And yes, I really am new on this forum, and the issue should be the topic not my length of membership. I am concerned that the only financially rewarding careers in pharmacy in the not-so-far future will be in academia and with the ACPE. If either academia or ACPE cared then they would be taking steps to ensure there is not a surplus and rapidly diminishing salaries. It is always about the money and SOPs will make money even if they are admitting students with a 'C' average as long as they pay. Any schools out there reducing the number of students they admit? - I didn't think so.
 
PharmacistX said:
You cannot really affect established schools much by refusing to precept students, but you can affect planned new schools. They have to demonstrate that they have enough preceptors and rotation sites to the ACPE or they will not recieve Pre-Accreditation status which allows them to recruit students.

No preceptors = no new school.

And yes, I really am new on this forum, and the issue should be the topic not my length of membership. I am concerned that the only financially rewarding careers in pharmacy in the not-so-far future will be in academia and with the ACPE. If either academia or ACPE cared then they would be taking steps to ensure there is not a surplus and rapidly diminishing salaries. It is always about the money and SOPs will make money even if they are admitting students with a 'C' average as long as they pay. Any schools out there reducing the number of students they admit? - I didn't think so.
Click to expand...

Problem is this is like throwing sand at a train. It could also be self-defeating. Assume for a second a practitioner CAN say no (not under employer mandate to precept). Chances are, this person is "in the know" and concerned about the welfare of pharmacy (and thus would make a great preceptor). If this person says no, there's enough momentum/students graduating that there's bound to be someone who says "yes" and chances are this could be one of the "all money/no passion" people you're alluding to, thus leading to poorer quality students.

Just a thought. Law of unintended consequences.
 
PharmacistX said:
You cannot really affect established schools much by refusing to precept students, but you can affect planned new schools. They have to demonstrate that they have enough preceptors and rotation sites to the ACPE or they will not recieve Pre-Accreditation status which allows them to recruit students.

No preceptors = no new school.

And yes, I really am new on this forum, and the issue should be the topic not my length of membership. I am concerned that the only financially rewarding careers in pharmacy in the not-so-far future will be in academia and with the ACPE. If either academia or ACPE cared then they would be taking steps to ensure there is not a surplus and rapidly diminishing salaries. It is always about the money and SOPs will make money even if they are admitting students with a 'C' average as long as they pay. Any schools out there reducing the number of students they admit? - I didn't think so.
Click to expand...

The reason we were discussing it is because you brought up a topic that has been beaten to death over the past week or so only a few days after the initial troll of a poster was banned...said troll had also come up with 2-3 other names within the banning period and tried bringing up the topics again...so that being said, you can see why we would be suspicious
 
Members don't see this ad :)
sanrevelle said:
what if they paid you huge bucks? or what if the school paid your company huge bucks and you were required to precept or else lose your job?
Click to expand...

Never heard of it. Sounds completely bogus to me. A company can't force you to precept.

None of the preceptors at my school get paid at all from my school or from their company for precepting. Precepting is completely voluntary.
 
Can somebody, please, explain to me why medical schools don't just keep opening? There is clear demand for them. Every year many talented and qualified applicants get rejected by medical schools. But I don't see medical schools popping up everywhere like pharmacy schools do. I don't see physicians' salaries going down.
 
tashka said:
Can somebody, please, explain to me why medical schools don't just keep opening? There is clear demand for them. Every year many talented and qualified applicants get rejected by medical schools. But I don't see medical schools popping up everywhere like pharmacy schools do. I don't see physicians' salaries going down.
Click to expand...

The US physician supply is controlled by the number of medical residencies.
 
rxstudent13 said:
Never heard of it. Sounds completely bogus to me. A company can't force you to precept.

None of the preceptors at my school get paid at all from my school or from their company for precepting. Precepting is completely voluntary.
Click to expand...

i never said they get paid more for precepting. it's part of their many duties as a pharmacist for that particular company.
 
Its Z said:
The US physician supply is controlled by the number of medical residencies.
Click to expand...

It's also a bigger investment and harder to make money opening a medical school vs. opening a pharmacy school.
 
rxstudent13 said:
Never heard of it. Sounds completely bogus to me. A company can't force you to precept.

None of the preceptors at my school get paid at all from my school or from their company for precepting. Precepting is completely voluntary.
Click to expand...

I see this at my hospital and I've heard of it at others. Precepting is a part of the job description; if you don't want to precept you don't take the job.
 
just because you've never heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. psh.
 
rxstudent13 said:
Never heard of it. Sounds completely bogus to me. A company can't force you to precept.

None of the preceptors at my school get paid at all from my school or from their company for precepting. Precepting is completely voluntary.
Click to expand...

it's part of your job description, under the part that says "and other duties as assigned."
 
and oh yes, companies CAN make you precept and do lots of other things you hate because you signed the papers and they're paying your salary. yes they can.

got a lawyer friend who worked for a bigshot law firm. they paid her big money (over 150K). guess what? they made her come in on the weekends, on nights, and anytime they needed her ASAP. she could've said no, but then she would've been fired. very simple.
 
Yes, some preceptors are forced to precept. In the hospital where I do my rotations, I overheard preceptors talking during lunch how they hate students. Unfortunately, it shows. But most preceptors I had were wonderful teachers and very supportive. I will follow their example when I become preceptor.
 
The issue won't be finding a chain pharmacy for students, if anything it would be hospitals. There are so many different community pharmacies that it's a piece of cake to find the spots. Hospitals, on the other hand.... there's only a few of those per metro area, and they're often going to be used for multiple students per year. If you're a hospital that doesn't take any students, that can be a big difference in that school having enough sites for their students.
 
tashka said:
Can somebody, please, explain to me why medical schools don't just keep opening? There is clear demand for them. Every year many talented and qualified applicants get rejected by medical schools. But I don't see medical schools popping up everywhere like pharmacy schools do. I don't see physicians' salaries going down.
Click to expand...

A number of new medical schools have opened in the last ten years. Most of them are osteopathic schools but a few are allopathic too. As others have mentioned, the investment required to open a medical school is greater than that required for a pharmacy school and the rate limiting step is actually medical residencies, not # of med school seats. But don't make the mistake of thinking there have been NO new medical schools, because that's incorrect.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
A number of new medical schools have opened in the last ten years. Most of them are osteopathic schools but a few are allopathic too. As others have mentioned, the investment required to open a medical school is greater than that required for a pharmacy school and the rate limiting step is actually medical residencies, not # of med school seats. But don't make the mistake of thinking there have been NO new medical schools, because that's incorrect.
Click to expand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html

Per the article as of 2010, if all the proposed schools open, it would be an 18% increase in the # of schools and this doesn't take into account the # of existing schools expanding enrollment.

Hot damn, it sounds like I'm talking about pharmacy but I'm talking about medical schools. Shocking.
 
tashka said:
Can somebody, please, explain to me why medical schools don't just keep opening? There is clear demand for them. Every year many talented and qualified applicants get rejected by medical schools. But I don't see medical schools popping up everywhere like pharmacy schools do. I don't see physicians' salaries going down.
Click to expand...

If you look at the ACPE website, they do show some stats/figures in regards to other professional programs. It seems that since 2000, there has been a 13% increase in MD schools and a 47% increase in DO schools.

Here are some of interesting stats
 
confettiflyer said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html

Per the article as of 2010, if all the proposed schools open, it would be an 18% increase in the # of schools and this doesn't take into account the # of existing schools expanding enrollment.

Hot damn, it sounds like I'm talking about pharmacy but I'm talking about medical schools. Shocking.
Click to expand...


"His pre-med adviser told him that with his 3.3 grade-point average, he should apply only to osteopathic schools, but he persisted, and was admitted to The Commonwealth and New York Medical College in Valhalla, N.Y..."

What the eff?
 
Ackj said:
The issue won't be finding a chain pharmacy for students, if anything it would be hospitals. There are so many different community pharmacies that it's a piece of cake to find the spots. Hospitals, on the other hand.... there's only a few of those per metro area, and they're often going to be used for multiple students per year. If you're a hospital that doesn't take any students, that can be a big difference in that school having enough sites for their students.
Click to expand...

And the hospital loses out on attracting the best graduates for jobs because they already have experience and connections at the other hospitals.
 
tashka said:
Can somebody, please, explain to me why medical schools don't just keep opening? There is clear demand for them. Every year many talented and qualified applicants get rejected by medical schools. But I don't see medical schools popping up everywhere like pharmacy schools do. I don't see physicians' salaries going down.
Click to expand...

Also the LCME requires MD schools to be non-profit status. There was some drama in the DO forum when the first for profit DO school opened a few years back.
 
Read an article a bit ago about the AMA's successful lobbying to prevent any new medical schools from opening or expanding in the period of 1981-2001, something like that. Apparently they grossly exaggerated that the U.S. had an oversupply of physicians and public pressure has finally forced some change.
 
Namishin said:
Read an article a bit ago about the AMA's successful lobbying to prevent any new medical schools from opening or expanding in the period of 1981-2001, something like that. Apparently they grossly exaggerated that the U.S. had an oversupply of physicians and public pressure has finally forced some change.
Click to expand...

Lobbying to whom? The idea that the AMA accredits medical schools or controls the # of seats at medical schools has been debunked on this forum already. I'd be interested to read the article.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
Lobbying to whom? The idea that the AMA accredits medical schools or controls the # of seats at medical schools has been debunked on this forum already. I'd be interested to read the article.
Click to expand...

You don't know? There is no need to lobby to anyone in particular or understand the role of various agents. Just stomp your feet and make as much noise as possible. If only APhA would lobby for less schools, that would do the trick.
 
I actually don't totally disagree with being somewhat picky about which schools you will precept for. I've decided not to precept for any schools that don't pay a stipend. It's too much work not to get anything back. And no, the work I get out of the student doesn't count since it really makes that much more work for me :laugh:
 
I graduated from the University of Iowa COP and they would not take any preceptors that wanted a stipend. It was against their philosophy and ethic codes.

Whether we worked hospital or retail rotations we made their work load a lot more easier. In retail especially you can just count it up on a community pharmacy rotation I made them at least $3000 in revenue by doing MTMs/BP(yes people actually paid us for taking their blood pressure the ol fasioned way)/cholesterol/A1C screenigs.

I think having the pharmacy school pay for a preceptor is not right at all.

--If anything WE the students felt like we should of got paid by someone (school/preceptor)
 
Plus, I plan on being a preceptor once I finish my first year of working and doing the CE requirement, I rather have an extra hand in the pharmacy with all the tech hours being cut then not having one at all. And I can give short educational talks/or they can help me do flu shots while I work at the bench if they are certified.

and the day a job shortage comes where I can not find a job without applying myself 110% is the day I open my own pharmacy or other business ventures. You're not stuck with only pharmacy in life. THe shortage is definately not now since last year i turned down several offers with sign on's and relocation bonuses. Your just not looking hard enough or at the many options you have. GO TO the PHARMACY JOB FAIR that is held by some university COP's, i interviewed all day and had several offers weeks later.
 
Last edited:
cashmonyz said:
Plus, I plan on being a preceptor once I finish my first year of working and doing the CE requirement, I rather have an extra hand in the pharmacy with all the tech hours being cut then not having one at all. And I can give short educational talks/or they can help me do flu shots while I work at the bench if they are certified.

and the day a job shortage comes where I can not find a job without applying myself 110% is the day I open my own pharmacy or other business ventures. You're not stuck with only pharmacy in life. THe shortage is definately not now since last year i turned down several offers with sign on's and relocation bonuses. Your just not looking hard enough or at the many options you have. GO TO the PHARMACY JOB FAIR that is held by some university COP's, i interviewed all day and had several offers weeks later.
Click to expand...

that's retail though, you can have your student be a counting monkey (even though guidelines say rotating students shouldn't be used as free labor).

hospital is a different beast, i'd rather my preceptor get paid. what "honor/ethics" code are these people making up? Time is money. If they're not going to pay for preceptors, one of these newer/more nimble schools is going to do it and hospitals are going to look at little holes in their budget and make a tactical decision.

EDIT: you live in iowa, no wonder you didn't have a problem finding a job.
 
lol yes iowa the best place there is for education. MIDwest for life. I got offered jobs in iowa, illinois, and texas the 3 places where I applied myself and I am now in texas practicing for 2 years. then off to another state and beyond!

and not necessarily a counting monkey...I can set up flu clinics next fall at whatever location and have the student do that, its whatever the student feels comfortable doing I'm not going to make him do more or less but make sure they get the full circle of retail pharmacy and what it has to offer. I thought i was going to be in hospital but I like the patient interaction more in retail, my g/f is in hospital and I have more interesting stories to tell then she does. haha

If they didnt want to count i wouldnt make them count...i rather have them counsel every patient on every new script...that takes the majority of my time and i can just listen in on the convo since counsel station is one step away.
 
I precepted for Iowa; wouldn't do it again. Apparently my code of ethics is lacking :laugh:
 
Hey people, lets not hate on Iowa! I'm not sure about the whole paid/not paid/ethics thing, but regardless, Iowa rocks!
 
I don't know that there is anything wrong with paying a stipend to preceptors. I'll have students next year as part of my residency, and of course will precept students for my school if I become a permanent member of the faculty after that. But if I'm a community preceptor in the future, I think I'd take students from my alma mater for free (one student at a time, and not every month) but would likely not accept random students from wherever unless compensation is involved. It's a LOT of work to take a student and in most settings, the "free labor" you get back is not that valuable.
 
spacecowgirl said:
No hating here.
Click to expand...

No worries. :) It just sounded like the general tone of the thread was moving towards Iowa bashing.

As for why Iowa doesn't pay preceptors, I can only speculate that they think they're getting a higher caliber of preceptor if the preceptor isn't just doing it for the money (though I wouldn't guess that you would get paid much to precept anyway).
 
Simma down.

We've had this discussion before. It offends me that you imply that wanting a stipend is inversely related to the quality of preceptor. BS. I don't see a dime of the money myself, it goes into our department education fund. So I can learn more and be a better preceptor. What's BS is schools collecting full tuition when they aren't providing the education 4th year.
 
spacecowgirl said:
Simma down.

We've had this discussion before. It offends me that you imply that wanting a stipend is inversely related to the quality of preceptor. BS. I don't see a dime of the money myself, it goes into our department education fund. So I can learn more and be a better preceptor. What's BS is schools collecting full tuition when they aren't providing the education 4th year.
Click to expand...

I agree that it's silly to think that free = higher quality. That's not even logical.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
I agree that it's silly to think that free = higher quality. That's not even logical.
Click to expand...

Highly motivated = higher quality. You can have bad preceptors regardless of if you pay them or not, but once you take money out of the equation, that's one less reason for poorly motivated preceptors to do it.

I guess, I am not actually an APPE director. :p


"Simma down" :laugh:
 
owlegrad said:
Highly motivated = higher quality. You can have bad preceptors regardless of if you pay them or not, but once you take money out of the equation, that's one less reason for poorly motivated preceptors to do it.
Click to expand...

Or...

Preceptor: "I ain't gettin' paid for this so I can do what I want... you go count pillz, dawg..."

Lazy people are not likely to be motivated by the very small amount of money schools would likely pay preceptors. It's not like they are going to get paid by the hour at a normal pharmacist rate. More like a small stipend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

Dred Pirate
why did we lock the unfair preceptor thread?
Replies
11
Views
1K
nampa
N
D
  • Locked
Unfair Preceptors
2
Replies
57
Views
2K
deleted727644
D
Dred Pirate
The myth of a tough preceptor
Replies
31
Views
3K
naseuy
N
Lexington2012
Rite Aid just filed for bankruptcy
Replies
9
Views
1K
RxPreceptor
RxPreceptor
quickpic007
RX Preceptor Perks?
Replies
4
Views
660
owlegrad
owlegrad
Top