Just say "No" - to being a preceptor

[KARM12]

Preceptors don't get paid directly. The money goes to the hospital/corporation. Often times you have no choice. I am told by my hospital that I am to take students from school X because we have an agreement with them.

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[Its Z]

Preceptors don't get paid directly. The money goes to the hospital/corporation. Often times you have no choice. I am told by my hospital that I am to take students from school X because we have an agreement with them.

I would quit that job.

 

[owlegrad]

Preceptors don't get paid directly. The money goes to the hospital/corporation. Often times you have no choice. I am told by my hospital that I am to take students from school X because we have an agreement with them.

I hope you don't mind if I use your post to prove my point.

Do you think a pharmacist forced to precept so the site can get a stipend is going to do as good a job as a pharmacist who is doing it on a voluntary basis?

I don't think that paying the preceptor prevents the kind of abuse A4MD laid out, but maybe it does. Just to be clear, I am not 100% against paying preceptors (we don't expect our professors to do it for free) but I do think it says something when a school doesn't need to pay sites to take their students.

 

[ucrx]

Good precepting takes extra time on top of the usual schedule. You need to take time away from your work to spend with the student and prepare and read extra things to discuss with the student. Although the money doesn't go to the preceptor, it does make sense to pay the company for the time the preceptor is taking away from their work.

I know of a hospital that had to give up taking students for budgetary reasons. The hospital is making cuts everywhere so the pharmacists and techs are stretched thin. Without bringing money into the department, they can't afford to have pharmacists away from their work.

 

[rxlea]

A lot of our sites get a lot for being affiliated with the University too, especially the community clinics. I am not sure if we pay our local sites but I know we pay some of our OOS sites. The community clinics that do health fairs and stuff benefit because they get a bunch of pharm students out there doing screenings. Plus they can put on health education seminars and throw around the university name. I think networking is important too. Our LTC sites seem to really enjoy having IPPE students too. We've actually caught a lot of errors/health concerns in the past and it gives us good exposure to consulting pharmacy. It's like our first taste of medication management and the physicians take some of our recommendations (of course all these are overseen by the IPPE faculty member/pharmacist). I don't know...I guess I don't see the problem with paying sites but I don't know if I would pay them A LOT of money- it's relative I guess. We have a lot of good sites and connections and because a lot of the state pharmacists are alumns, they are more than willing to take students. I would view it as a way to give back to the school but I might change my mind about that when I become a pharmacist sorry for my long rambling... Plagued with insomnia at the moment.

 

[spacecowgirl]

When you students go out and become preceptors, come back and we can discuss this again. Until then, you don't know nothing.

FTR, it's about $100/week. Not a lot of money but enough to feel like we're appreciated for the time we spend. How much do you pay in tuition for your P4 year per week?

 

[bacillus1]

When you students go out and become preceptors, come back and we can discuss this again. Until then, you don't know nothing.

FTR, it's about $100/week. Not a lot of money but enough to feel like we're appreciated for the time we spend. How much do you pay in tuition for your P4 year per week?

Over $1000 a week here. If preceptors get paid $100/week, where the heck does the rest of the money go?

 

[spacecowgirl]

Over $1000 a week here. If preceptors get paid $100/week, where the heck does the rest of the money go?

Funny isn't it? That's where you students should direct your questions.

ETA: not to mention the resources the site pays for - reference material, printing costs, computer time, administration costs of getting the student access to the EMR, Pyxis, etc. That all takes time which = $. Does your school charge you for technology fees even though you're not using their technology during that time? Fees for the health center, gym, etc when you might not even be in the same city as your school that whole time?

Interesting, isn't it? And the underlying reason why I think schools not paying sites is crap. You guys are getting hosed.

 

[Its Z]

Funny isn't it? That's where you students should direct your questions.

ETA: not to mention the resources the site pays for - reference material, printing costs, computer time, administration costs of getting the student access to the EMR, Pyxis, etc. That all takes time which = $. Does your school charge you for technology fees even though you're not using their technology during that time? Fees for the health center, gym, etc when you might not even be in the same city as your school that whole time?

Interesting, isn't it? And the underlying reason why I think schools not paying sites is crap. You guys are getting hosed.

did you build that igloo?

 

[spacecowgirl]

did you build that igloo?

With nothing but a hand shovel and these

 

[rxlea]

When you students go out and become preceptors, come back and we can discuss this again. Until then, you don't know nothing.

FTR, it's about $100/week. Not a lot of money but enough to feel like we're appreciated for the time we spend. How much do you pay in tuition for your P4 year per week?

100 a week?? That's it??? And here I thought it was way more. Yeah, I don't see why a school cannot pay 100 a week! This morning, I did ask a couple local preceptors if their sites got paid and they said yes. They also said some don't. But, like I said, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Yup, $100/week. Enough to pay for the reg fee for a conference for someone or to get some updated references. It's not the cash cow that I feel like some people on here were making it out to be Like I said, it's more to show appreciation, provide a little incentive ("hey, we can go to that diabetes conference if we take on another student") to the PEOPLE ENTRUSTED TO EDUCATE FUTURE PHARMACISTS. Think about that. Schools that don't pay preceptors are basically saying that people teaching Med Chem are worth 100K year but the people who teach applicable skills, hey thanks for your time, sucka.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Yup, $100/week. Enough to pay for the reg fee for a conference for someone or to get some updated references. It's not the cash cow that I feel like some people on here were making it out to be Like I said, it's more to show appreciation, provide a little incentive ("hey, we can go to that diabetes conference if we take on another student") to the PEOPLE ENTRUSTED TO EDUCATE FUTURE PHARMACISTS. Think about that. Schools that don't pay preceptors are basically saying that people teaching Med Chem are worth 100K year but the people who teach applicable skills, hey thanks for your time, sucka.

That's about what I thought it would be. Not enough to really cover your time even. And I saw on my last rotation that students can really be a drag on your time. Even good students take time to supervise and bad students are a huge time suck. For IPPE students, especially if they don't have much pharmacy experience, you've got to explain EVERYTHING, so even if they are "working" they still slow you down.

I had a preceptor go on vacation earlier this year and leave me and a student from another school "under the supervision" of her supervisor, who maybe talked to us once per day. I ended up having to do everything FOR or WITH the other student because he was so 'challenged'. I had to round on my patients AND go to his rounds with him. When we worked on monitoring paperwork together, I had to check all his work. Not because I cared about him, but because I wanted things to be done correctly for the patients. So the idea that students do useful work for the site, while it may be true in some circumstances - I think most of the time the "work" students do could be done better and faster by someone more experienced - or in the case I've just described, by someone who at least knows what they are doing.

The benefit in the site-preceptor-student relationship is mostly to the student. No one will convince me otherwise.

 

[VeraShield]

The benefit in the site-preceptor-student relationship is mostly to the student. No one will convince me otherwise.

Well, except for retail rotations. They love taking advantage of that free labor. I've seen some misuse rotation students to cover for techs not coming in, and as make-shift telemarketers.

My school doesn't pay for any rotations in-state that I know of, but the majority of the core rotations (acute, ambulatory, cardiology, critical care, drug info, ID, oncology) available at hospitals around town are already precepted by clinician-faculty. So I guess we are already paying for preceptors.

 

[Farmercyst]

That's about what I thought it would be. Not enough to really cover your time even. And I saw on my last rotation that students can really be a drag on your time. Even good students take time to supervise and bad students are a huge time suck. For IPPE students, especially if they don't have much pharmacy experience, you've got to explain EVERYTHING, so even if they are "working" they still slow you down.

I had a preceptor go on vacation earlier this year and leave me and a student from another school "under the supervision" of her supervisor, who maybe talked to us once per day. I ended up having to do everything FOR or WITH the other student because he was so 'challenged'. I had to round on my patients AND go to his rounds with him. When we worked on monitoring paperwork together, I had to check all his work. Not because I cared about him, but because I wanted things to be done correctly for the patients. So the idea that students do useful work for the site, while it may be true in some circumstances - I think most of the time the "work" students do could be done better and faster by someone more experienced - or in the case I've just described, by someone who at least knows what they are doing.

The benefit in the site-preceptor-student relationship is mostly to the student. No one will convince me otherwise.

You are so closed-minded.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Well, except for retail rotations. They love taking advantage of that free labor. I've seen some misuse rotation students to cover for techs not coming in, and as make-shift telemarketers.

My school doesn't pay for any rotations in-state that I know of, but the majority of the core rotations (acute, ambulatory, cardiology, critical care, drug info, ID, oncology) available at hospitals around town are already precepted by clinician-faculty. So I guess we are already paying for preceptors.

I have not had a single chain pharmacy rotation during all of pharmacy school, but see how that could be true. That's really a separate problem. If students are being used only as clerks or cashiers, that's not appropriate. I don't have a problem using IPPE students (especially those with NO pharmacy experience) as techs and having them pull and count and fill. They need to learn how pharmacies work. Answer the phone, talk to patients, handle routine requests - all appropriate work for students. But there should be some teaching involved and if there isn't, that should be dealt with by the school.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

You are so closed-minded.

Maybe!

I forgot to add that I have (in my prior career) precepted student interns and found the quality to be HIGHLY variable, even amongst students in the same class at the same school. Even the best students require a ton of work/oversight because the short time they are with you is usually not enough for them to become oriented to how things are done at that particular location.

But the WORST students.... UGH!! Don't know how to answer the phone professionally! Don't know how to use Microsoft Word (WTF!?!)! Can't figure out an alphabetical filing system! Don't show up on time! Want to leave after lunch every day! So annoying!

 

[Its Z]

With nothing but a hand shovel and these

That is awesome. Is that an igloo building kit? If I had that I would have built a.triplewide two story mcmansion of an igloo. I must buy it.

 

[ttopping]

100 a week?? That's it??? And here I thought it was way more. Yeah, I don't see why a school cannot pay 100 a week! This morning, I did ask a couple local preceptors if their sites got paid and they said yes. They also said some don't. But, like I said, I don't see a problem with it.

$100/week x 6 week rotations x 6 rotations x 125 students = $450,000

Probably because it would cost the school around half a million dollars per year to pay preceptors (taking UB for example)...as a state school with budget issues to begin with, there's no way they could deal with that.

What they actually do with our tuition money during p4 year is beyond me...but still

 

[pharmschooler]

But the WORST students.... UGH!! Don't know how to answer the phone professionally! Don't know how to use Microsoft Word (WTF!?!)! Can't figure out an alphabetical filing system! Don't show up on time! Want to leave after lunch every day! So annoying!

What?! These are life skills...have you met pharm students that can't do these things? Yikes!

 

[Farmercyst]

What?! These are life skills...have you met pharm students that can't do these things? Yikes!

Your school's selection process must be more exclusive than ours..
Edit: Oh wait, nvm, you'll find out when you see your P1 classmates.

 

[owlegrad]

Your school's selection process must be more exclusive than ours..
Edit: Oh wait, nvm, you'll find out when you see your P1 classmates.

 

[pharmschooler]

Your school's selection process must be more exclusive than ours..
Edit: Oh wait, nvm, you'll find out when you see your P1 classmates.

Oh, don't tell me that...! That's sort of a bummer. Then again, with all this shortage talk, this discussion is leaving me optimistic about my future chances of finding employment. Haha.

 

[cashmonyz]

back to karm12's point--everything should be voluntary, all about freedom of choice, if you want to be a preceptor just go in knowing some schools will pay you, others will not, no one is making you get your CE to precept or forcing you to teach a student. And if someone is forcing you to precept you should investigate your pharmacy board rules in your state.

when I was a P1-I never counted a pill in my life until p2 year. But from 18-till p2 year i was working with pharmacists at a drug information center (IDIS) that never counted a pill in their lives. p1 year is when they teach you all the professional mannerisms though...hell i never knew how to tie a tie until i entered pharmacy

 

[confettiflyer]

$100/week x 6 week rotations x 6 rotations x 125 students = $450,000

Probably because it would cost the school around half a million dollars per year to pay preceptors (taking UB for example)...as a state school with budget issues to begin with, there's no way they could deal with that.

What they actually do with our tuition money during p4 year is beyond me...but still

You're subsidizing everyone/everything else.

I can't find your tuition info online for P4 year, so I'll just take one semester and multiply by 3 so that's $9851 x 3 = $29553 x 125 students = ~$3.7M

So $450,000 / $3,700,000 = 12% of your tuition goes to your preceptors.

You probably spend more than 12% of your time (collectively, as a class) getting educated by your preceptors in your P4 year.

Even if you add in the professional staff involved in inspecting sites, etc (1 director, 1 assistant dir., 2 secretaries) you're still looking at <50% of your P4 tuition going directly to what pertains to your P4 year.


The problem is...if you assume pharm school is fairly priced (BIG assumption), then really that spike in P4 tuition is taken into account already. So paying $10k-10k-10k-15k is the same as paying 11.25k flat for four years, or $45k in one lump sum. If you look at it that way, that P4 "spike" goes to pay for the building maintenance for the lab you used in P1.

But I digress, preceptors should get paid, and I think over time enough pharmacy directors will be seeing budget crunches and taking on students, unreimbursed, on a large scale will be a thing of the past.

 

[spacecowgirl]

You're subsidizing everyone/everything else.

I can't find your tuition info online for P4 year, so I'll just take one semester and multiply by 3 so that's $9851 x 3 = $29553 x 125 students = ~$3.7M

So $450,000 / $3,700,000 = 12% of your tuition goes to your preceptors.

You probably spend more than 12% of your time (collectively, as a class) getting educated by your preceptors in your P4 year.

I know I spend more 1:1 time with my students than they spent with any of their profs in a whole semester.

 

[KARM12]

I would quit that job.

Waiting for my next move up... you hiring?

 

[KARM12]

I should clarify, I haven't yet been "forced" to precept a student full time with me on ID. The students I get forced upon me are those that are on their hospital rotation that are assigned to me that week. Half the time I don't even know when I am supposed to have someone with me. But no, I don't get any pay for that...

 

[Its Z]

Waiting for my next move up... you hiring?

Maybe

 

[KARM12]

I should clarify, I haven't yet been "forced" to precept a student full time with me on ID. The students I get forced upon me are those that are on their hospital rotation that are assigned to me that week. Half the time I don't even know when I am supposed to have someone with me. But no, I don't get any pay for that...

 

[unevache]

From my research pharmacists in the state of Iowa on average get paid considerably less than the rest of the country. Was that true based on your experiences with offers from Iowa, Illinois, and Texas? I hope you don't mind discussing any general figures.

lol yes iowa the best place there is for education. MIDwest for life. I got offered jobs in iowa, illinois, and texas the 3 places where I applied myself and I am now in texas practicing for 2 years. then off to another state and beyond!

and not necessarily a counting monkey...I can set up flu clinics next fall at whatever location and have the student do that, its whatever the student feels comfortable doing I'm not going to make him do more or less but make sure they get the full circle of retail pharmacy and what it has to offer. I thought i was going to be in hospital but I like the patient interaction more in retail, my g/f is in hospital and I have more interesting stories to tell then she does. haha

If they didnt want to count i wouldnt make them count...i rather have them counsel every patient on every new script...that takes the majority of my time and i can just listen in on the convo since counsel station is one step away.

 

[confettiflyer]

From my research pharmacists in the state of Iowa on average get paid considerably less than the rest of the country. Was that true based on your experiences with offers from Iowa, Illinois, and Texas? I hope you don't mind discussing any general figures.

consider cost of living & tax burden