Just when you thought Caribbean schools couldn't get any worse...

Crayola227

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JFC
 

Eleithyia

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Mine seems to think I want to buy (read: can afford) furniture? :shrug:

I hate to turn on AdBlock on SDN because I can't spare the money to actually donate, and I like it here.
 
Aug 10, 2016
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I'm confused why this is an issue considering the general direction of med today is towards prevention and the view that body systems are a part of an interconnected whole. It is only a matter of time until the market pushed all programs in that direction. The majority of patients I have seen in nicer regions always ask about CAM options.
 

Law2Doc

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I'm confused why this is an issue ...The majority of patients I have seen in nicer regions always ask about CAM options.
If it's not evidence-based its not science, it's just wishing for magic. Thats the objection people have to "alternative medicine" -- that it's not "medicine" and it's not often a good "alternative" and thus this term is just a loaded term to legitimize something that is not. And so that's what this school is now teaching. And I guess it makes perfect sense -- if their graduates aren't going to match into residency anyhow, at least they can open up a shop selling herbs and crystals and putting to use the "neurophysiology of higher states of consciousness" described as being taught by one of the pictured faculty members.

The really scary thing though is they will be wearing MD on their white coats as the preside made up non vetted treatments, and patients may think they are getting actual medical care.
 
Aug 10, 2016
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If it's not evidence-based its not science, it's just wishing for magic. Thats the objection people have to "alternative medicine" -- that it's not "medicine" and it's not often a good "alternative" and thus this term is just a loaded term to legitimize something that is not. And so that's what this school is now teaching. And I guess it makes perfect sense -- if their graduates aren't going to match into residency anyhow, at least they can open up a shop selling herbs and crystals and putting to use the "neurophysiology of higher states of consciousness" described as being taught by one of the pictured faculty members.

The really scary thing though is they will be wearing MD on their white coats as the preside made up non vetted treatments, and patients may think they are getting actual medical care.
It seems you are missing a key point of what they are saying: "cohesive clinical care is the disciplined integration of Western allopathic medicine and quantifiable evidenced based healing modalities from the..." It specifically says evidence-based multiple times on the site. That's the point- I'm pretty sure they are not teaching chanting or aroma therapy.... it's all grounded in scientific research. Surely I won't need to speak on the increase in CAM popularity in the States- and we are behind places like Australia and Western Europe in this regard. I don't think anything on there indicates they are "wishing for magic". Just giving students an option to learn more about alternative methods to recommend. I often wish I knew more about this arena not to practice, but to guide a patient if they are interested. You're hurting yourself and your patients if you don't follow any route possible to better provide care. My mom is an ob/gyn, went to a state school in the 80's and just came back from a CAM conference in Charelston, SC geared towards women's health. When she was training they taught nothing about nutrition, whole-body wellness, etc.

At the end of the day, you really must read and stay abreast of medical research and trends. MUM seems very legit, though I am not familiar, they have been around for 40 + years and have $30 MILLION in NIH funding over that span. I don't know of many other Carib schools w/ a partner that well-vetted or any research like that.
 
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IsleyOfTheNorth

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It specifically says evidence-based multiple times on the site. That's the point- I'm pretty sure they are not teaching chanting or aroma therapy.... it's all grounded in scientific research.
1. I doubt that their criteria for "evidence" is the same as someone who administers medicine (read: "actual medicine") that has consequences.

2. "The program enlivens the inner intelligence of the body, through daily practice of Transcendental Meditation."

While TM may have health benefits, so does reclining in a lay-z-boy.

Here's the easy tip-off: "The curriculum integrates the current modern understanding of disease and treatment with the ancient Vedic understanding,"

Whenever they try to sell you on some crackpot garbage, they always throw in adjectives such as "ancient" to give it an air of authority. This is a classic, you might even say "ancient", pseudoscience trick.
 
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MUM seems very legit, though I am not familiar, they have been around for 40 + years
Given that little nugget of information, what can we infer about your credibility as a poster given that you only just joined today?
 

Law2Doc

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It's a logical next step for a program that's cranking out medical students who increasingly won't get residencies -- find them a path they don't need to do residency in and can still call themselves "doctor" and maybe the gravy train tuition checks keep coming. The school realizes these people all will need a plan B and is creating one for them. But again it's bad news for the profession because these people will be doling out "alternative" treatments with MD on their white coats and patients will think that means the same as a resident trained board certified doctor.
 
Aug 10, 2016
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Given that little nugget of information, what can we infer about your credibility as a poster given that you only just joined today?
Give me 3 months and I'll be sort of like you. I am building a website in my spare time and my Overwatch Joomla extension actually tracked a user on my site direct to this forum. I think it was an error b/c I just installed overwatch yesterday, but then I jumped down an internet rabbit hole to IM/CAM stuff and thought I'd post and see what the stink was.
 

NimbleNavigator

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Give me 3 months and I'll be sort of like you. I am building a website in my spare time and my Overwatch Joomla extension actually tracked a user on my site direct to this forum. I think it was an error b/c I just installed overwatch yesterday, but then I jumped down an internet rabbit hole to IM/CAM stuff and thought I'd post and see what the stink was.
English mother****er - do you speak it?
 
Aug 10, 2016
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1. I doubt that their criteria for "evidence" is the same as someone who administers medicine (read: "actual medicine") that has consequences.

2. "The program enlivens the inner intelligence of the body, through daily practice of Transcendental Meditation."

While TM may have health benefits, so does reclining in a lay-z-boy.

Here's the easy tip-off: "The curriculum integrates the current modern understanding of disease and treatment with the ancient Vedic understanding,"

Whenever they try to sell you on some crackpot garbage, they always through in adjectives such as "ancient" to give it an air of authority. This is a classic, you might even say "ancient", pseudoscience trick.

I hear you. And the stuff is totally wonky. BUT, also seems evidence based and supported by real reserach:
Robert H. Schneider, MD, F.A.C.C., is a physician, scientist, educator, and one of the world’s leading authorities on scientific, natural approaches for heart disease, high blood pressure, stress and other cardiovascular risk factors.

Over the past twenty years, he has directed nearly $20 million in research grants from the National Institutes of Health for his pioneering research on natural approaches to heart disease.

That's SERIOUS money for meditation. SERIOUS. Money usually talks, as they say and always means something. And I totally agree with your position on the quotes above. Sounds wacky and hippy dippy. BUT this stuff has def been studied rigorously- and again, I don't think they would teach Vedic stuff at a Carib school. Thats a way to failure- but an intro to the IDEA of some of this is probably useful.
 

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That's SERIOUS money for meditation. SERIOUS. Money usually talks, as they say and always means something.


You must live a really fulfilling life.
 
Aug 10, 2016
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It's a logical next step for a program that's cranking out medical students who increasingly won't get residencies -- find them a path they don't need to do residency in and can still call themselves "doctor" and maybe the gravy train tuition checks keep coming. The school realizes these people all will need a plan B and is creating one for them. But again it's bad news for the profession because these people will be doling out "alternative" treatments with MD on their white coats and patients will think that means the same as a resident trained board certified doctor.
I can see that point for sure. It just seems that a US institution w/ fed funding would be sensitive and diligent when partnering w/ an offshore.
Patients should be doing HW on their docs though. I still don't see why you keep saying "alternative". It's becoming accepted fact that Western med is not the whole toolkit we should be using. Hell, DO started here and that has a holistic bent. MJ has been outlawed and we know now it has medicinal qualities. These other cultures that have had some form of medicine have some value- agreed- they are not a FULL system, but they have some contributions and frankly the older generation of doc's (like my mom) are actually starting to acknowledge this.
 

Lost In Transcription

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I hear you. And the stuff is totally wonky. BUT, also seems evidence based and supported by real reserach:
Robert H. Schneider, MD, F.A.C.C., is a physician, scientist, educator, and one of the world’s leading authorities on scientific, natural approaches for heart disease, high blood pressure, stress and other cardiovascular risk factors.

Over the past twenty years, he has directed nearly $20 million in research grants from the National Institutes of Health for his pioneering research on natural approaches to heart disease.

That's SERIOUS money for meditation. SERIOUS. Money usually talks, as they say and always means something. And I totally agree with your position on the quotes above. Sounds wacky and hippy dippy. BUT this stuff has def been studied rigorously- and again, I don't think they would teach Vedic stuff at a Carib school. Thats a way to failure- but an intro to the IDEA of some of this is probably useful.
$20 mil is nuffin in NIH money.

Also grant money doesn't constitute hard evidence, especially not in patients. I can research a protein in flies all I want but that doesn't mean it is meaningful clinically.
 

IsleyOfTheNorth

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That's SERIOUS money for meditation. SERIOUS. Money usually talks, as they say and always means something. And I totally agree with your position on the quotes above. Sounds wacky and hippy dippy. BUT this stuff has def been studied rigorously- and again, I don't think they would teach Vedic stuff at a Carib school. Thats a way to failure- but an intro to the IDEA of some of this is probably useful.
Fair enough:

"CONCLUSIONS:
Use of TM for 16 weeks in CHD patients improved blood pressure and insulin resistance components of the metabolic syndrome as well as cardiac autonomic nervous system tone compared with a control group receiving health education. These results suggest that TM may modulate the physiological response to stress and improve CHD risk factors, which may be a novel therapeutic target for the treatment of CHD."

My wife has high blood pressure. When she goes on vacation, she doesn't. I'll accept that stress-management has physiological effects.

But they are explicitly teaching "Vedic stuff" at MUM:

"Maharishi AyurVeda is a comprehensive, prevention-oriented approach to healthcare based on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s revival of AyurVeda, the traditional system of natural medicine in India."

From Wikipedia:
Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health (MVAH) (also known as Maharishi Ayurveda or Maharishi Vedic Medicine) is a form of alternative medicine founded in the mid-1980s by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who developed the Transcendental Meditation technique (TM).

A 1991 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that promoters of MVAH failed to disclose financial incentives when they submitted a letter for publication and that their marketing practices were misleading. A 2008 study published in JAMA reported that two of the 19 Maharishi Ayurveda products tested contained heavy metals. A 1991 British case found two physicians guilty of "serious professional misconduct" for using MVAH in the unsuccessful treatment of HIV.

Also from Wikipedia:
According to MVAH researcher Hari Sharma, ... "Vedic thought discusses a unified field of pure, non-material intelligence and consciousness whose modes of vibration manifest as the material universe." Disease results from losing connection with this underlying field of intelligence.

I'd like to see the evidence supporting this claim.

Mixing evidence-supported claims with hogwash is the hallmark of pseudoscience. It gives the baloney an air of authenticity by proximity to actual science.
 
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Law2Doc

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... I still don't see why you keep saying "alternative". It's becoming accepted fact that Western med is not the whole toolkit we should be using...
There is no "Western medicine" -- that's a loaded term trying to justify something else as also being "medicine". Either something is evidence based or it's not. If it is, medical doctors will adopt it and put it into their "toolkit". (Medical MJ uses, acupuncture, fit this bill and are being swept into the medical arena for certain specific uses). But until it's been proven using legitimate reproducible scientific methodology, it's not "medicine" at all and shouldn't be described as such, "alternative" or otherwise. And it sure shouldn't be taught in conjunction with what you are billing as a medical school training. And shouldn't be taught by professors who claim they study "higher states of consciousness". Please. Much of this is crackpottery being elevated to "science" without actually going through the levels of experimental study required, usually because the proponents know full well the likely outcome of such studies.
 

Goro

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Indeed. And for all the NIH money going into CAM, there is actually very little that comes out of it.

$20 mil is nuffin in NIH money.

Also grant money doesn't constitute hard evidence, especially not in patients. I can research a protein in flies all I want but that doesn't mean it is meaningful clinically.
Here's a very useful website to start perusing for the gullible. Those of you who are devotees of unproven claims, please spare us the cognitive dissonance that will inevitably follow.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
 

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reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated
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Here's a very useful website to start perusing for the gullible. Those of you who are devotees of unproven claims, please spare us the cognitive dissonance that will inevitably follow.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
And THIS is why research experience is basically required now, for those of you premeds who can't understand why physicians need to learn how to do research.

Can't know how to use it in practice very well if you don't know what goes into a good experimental setup.
 

Crayola227

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And THIS is why research experience is basically required now, for those of you premeds who can't understand why physicians need to learn how to do research.

Can't know how to use it in practice very well if you don't know what goes into a good experimental setup.
So tired about the whining over the foundation of knowledge that is expected in a physician.

We're applied scientists ffs. Own that. If you can't own it and take pride in it, gtfo.
 

Goro

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Mods, please sticky!!!
So tired about the whining over the foundation of knowledge that is expected in a physician.

We're applied scientists ffs. Own that. If you can't own it and take pride in it, gtfo.
 
Aug 10, 2016
9
1
Fair enough:

"CONCLUSIONS:
Use of TM for 16 weeks in CHD patients improved blood pressure and insulin resistance components of the metabolic syndrome as well as cardiac autonomic nervous system tone compared with a control group receiving health education. These results suggest that TM may modulate the physiological response to stress and improve CHD risk factors, which may be a novel therapeutic target for the treatment of CHD."

My wife has high blood pressure. When she goes on vacation, she doesn't. I'll accept that stress-management has physiological effects.

But they are explicitly teaching "Vedic stuff" at MUM:

"Maharishi AyurVeda is a comprehensive, prevention-oriented approach to healthcare based on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s revival of AyurVeda, the traditional system of natural medicine in India."

From Wikipedia:
Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health (MVAH) (also known as Maharishi Ayurveda or Maharishi Vedic Medicine) is a form of alternative medicine founded in the mid-1980s by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who developed the Transcendental Meditation technique (TM).

A 1991 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that promoters of MVAH failed to disclose financial incentives when they submitted a letter for publication and that their marketing practices were misleading. A 2008 study published in JAMA reported that two of the 19 Maharishi Ayurveda products tested contained heavy metals. A 1991 British case found two physicians guilty of "serious professional misconduct" for using MVAH in the unsuccessful treatment of HIV.

Also from Wikipedia:
According to MVAH researcher Hari Sharma, ... "Vedic thought discusses a unified field of pure, non-material intelligence and consciousness whose modes of vibration manifest as the material universe." Disease results from losing connection with this underlying field of intelligence.

I'd like to see the evidence supporting this claim.

Mixing evidence-supported claims with hogwash is the hallmark of pseudoscience. It gives the baloney an air of authenticity by proximity to actual science.

You missed a key point. This discussion was about a Carib school teaching the Vedic stuff, not MUM. MUM clearly does. Granted, affiliation with it may be undesirable to some.
The point is more so: "is there value in exposing your students to knowledge outside of conventional medicine. " I've seen the sea change in physicians in the US- from laughing at chiro's and acupuncturists to actually seeing the value. The point is- many schools don't expose students to this stuff. I wouldn't recommend training in it- but having the knowledge to steer people away from bs and towards something evidence-based would seem to be key moving forward.

By no means am I supporting the stuff you quote from JAMA or the weirdness- but you said it yourself. Even the IDEA that mental/the mind can impact the physiology of the body is now accepted and PROVEN whereas 15 years ago it was disregarded
 
Aug 10, 2016
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There is no "Western medicine" -- that's a loaded term trying to justify something else as also being "medicine". Either something is evidence based or it's not. If it is, medical doctors will adopt it and put it into their "toolkit". (Medical MJ uses, acupuncture, fit this bill and are being swept into the medical arena for certain specific uses). But until it's been proven using legitimate reproducible scientific methodology, it's not "medicine" at all and shouldn't be described as such, "alternative" or otherwise. And it sure shouldn't be taught in conjunction with what you are billing as a medical school training. And shouldn't be taught by professors who claim they study "higher states of consciousness". Please. Much of this is crackpottery being elevated to "science" without actually going through the levels of experimental study required, usually because the proponents know full well the likely outcome of such studies.
Meh, you know what I meant- "conventional medicine". Agreed, either it is evidence-based or it is not. Growing up they'd have laughed at the thought of MJ having medicinal effects but for much of our human history that was acknowledged fact. The same can be applied across the board. Those who benefit from not studying a certain mode of med will fight to keep it unstudied. Even the guy in Missouri who created DO was considered a bit wacky for thinking of the body as a system w/ interconnected and dependent parts. ****, look at this:

https://news.virginia.edu/content/shocking-new-role-found-immune-system-controlling-social-interactions?utm_source=Illimitable&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=news




To clarify- it looks like MUM does NOT have medical school. Thankfully.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Meh, you know what I meant- "conventional medicine". Agreed, either it is evidence-based or it is not. Growing up they'd have laughed at the thought of MJ having medicinal effects but for much of our human history that was acknowledged fact. The same can be applied across the board. Those who benefit from not studying a certain mode of med will fight to keep it unstudied. Even the guy in Missouri who created DO was considered a bit wacky for thinking of the body as a system w/ interconnected and dependent parts. ****, look at this:

https://news.virginia.edu/content/shocking-new-role-found-immune-system-controlling-social-interactions?utm_source=Illimitable&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=news




To clarify- it looks like MUM does NOT have medical school. Thankfully.
No, you're just splitting hairs. Any sort of label like "conventional medicine" or "Western medicine" does the same thing: it labels actual evidence-based medicine as only one option in an attempt to put unproven (and sometimes disproven) "treatments" (and I use that term lightly) on the same level as actual medicine.

Either something is medicine or it is not.
 

DingoPingo

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There is no "Western medicine" -- that's a loaded term trying to justify something else as also being "medicine". Either something is evidence based or it's not. If it is, medical doctors will adopt it and put it into their "toolkit". (Medical MJ uses, acupuncture, fit this bill and are being swept into the medical arena for certain specific uses). But until it's been proven using legitimate reproducible scientific methodology, it's not "medicine" at all and shouldn't be described as such, "alternative" or otherwise. And it sure shouldn't be taught in conjunction with what you are billing as a medical school training. And shouldn't be taught by professors who claim they study "higher states of consciousness". Please. Much of this is crackpottery being elevated to "science" without actually going through the levels of experimental study required, usually because the proponents know full well the likely outcome of such studies.
I disagree. Western medicine is merely a term for the Western approach to studying medicine, which is basically using a scientific method that is constrained in many ways, just like other forms of medicine. Saying that "Western medicine" is the only way to approach medicine is close-minded and arrogant. Any doctor should know that science and medicine, whichever tradition you subscribe to, is limited. Integrative medicine, which combines different forms of medicine, is one way of approaching problems that cannot be easily addressed by the "reproducible scientific methodology" held in such great esteem by know-it-all scientists.

It's like the same argument so many people have against religion. They think that just because they grew up not understanding faith, they believe that religion is only made for those who are dumb enough to believe it. And then we see so many educated and intellectual people having faith. Why would they believe in something so stupid if they were so intelligent? It's the same for integrative/alternative medicine. People who go in assuming it is false close their minds to the possibilities embodied in it.

And just as a reminder, Duke is big on Integrative Medicine. Here's its quote on integrative medicine:
  • Providers use all healing sciences to facilitate the body’s innate healing response.
  • Effective interventions that are natural and less invasive are used whenever possible.
  • Good medicine is based in good science. It is inquiry driven and open to new paradigms.
And almost all of the top schools have integrative medicine centers.
http://medicine.yale.edu/integrativemedicine/
http://oshercenter.org/
https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-clinics/integrative-medicine-center.html
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I don't know how I ended up on this thread but you all sound so judgmental and ignorant for future physicians. A lot of highly respected researchers take seriously some aspects of what you would write off as "hippy" alternative medicine. Mindfulness is being studied a lot right now, specifically how meditation affects parts of the brain that exhibit neuroplasticity and are associated with wellbeing. There are also a lot of studies on psycho-neuro immunology showing how consciousness directly affects your immune system and therefore cancer outcomes among other diseases. Obviously no one with an MD would treat everything with just alternative medicine. There is however validity in preventing affluent diseases through food/meditation, something that our country is failing miserably at.

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Except that when these things are studied and proven effective, they become part of medicine. What some people here are saying is that you can't hold hogwash up alongside evidence-based medicine and call them equal. Studies showing meditation lowers blood pressure isn't hogwash. It's a reproducible result. Big difference between that and something like homeopathy.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I disagree. Western medicine is merely a term for the Western approach to studying medicine, which is basically using a scientific method that is constrained in many ways, just like other forms of medicine. Saying that "Western medicine" is the only way to approach medicine is close-minded and arrogant. Any doctor should know that science and medicine, whichever tradition you subscribe to, is limited. Integrative medicine, which combines different forms of medicine, is one way of approaching problems that cannot be easily addressed by the "reproducible scientific methodology" held in such great esteem by know-it-all scientists.

It's like the same argument so many people have against religion. They think that just because they grew up not understanding faith, they believe that religion is only made for those who are dumb enough to believe it. And then we see so many educated and intellectual people having faith. Why would they believe in something so stupid if they were so intelligent? It's the same for integrative/alternative medicine. People who go in assuming it is false close their minds to the possibilities embodied in it.

And just as a reminder, Duke has its own center for Integrative Medicine. Here's its quote on integrative medicine:
  • Providers use all healing sciences to facilitate the body’s innate healing response.
  • Effective interventions that are natural and less invasive are used whenever possible.
  • Good medicine is based in good science. It is inquiry driven and open to new paradigms.
Except that's not what he was saying. What he said was that medicine is medicine, whether it's and antibiotic or acupuncture, so long as it's based in science. When people use the term "Western medicine," most of the time they are doing so to diminish the importance of evidence-based medicine so that untested alternatives seem more legitimate.
 

DingoPingo

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Except that's not what he was saying. What he said was that medicine is medicine, whether it's and antibiotic or acupuncture, so long as it's based in science. When people use the term "Western medicine," most of the time they are doing so to diminish the importance of evidence-based medicine so that untested alternatives seem more legitimate.
Science to Westerners is not the same as science to people from other places in the world. To say that medicine is medicine if it uses science means nothing. This is why there should be a distinction between Western medicine and other forms. Because "Western science" is not the same as science.
 

Law2Doc

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Science to Westerners is not the same as science to people from other places in the world. To say that medicine is medicine if it uses science means nothing. This is why there should be a distinction between Western medicine and other forms. Because "Western science" is not the same as science.
Just stop. Something is either evidence based or it's not. Has nothing to do with where in the world it originates. Either someone can demonstrate the efficacy and safety using reproducible scientific methodology or they can't. If they can, it constitutes medicine. If they can't it's not medicine, period. You don't get to create new categories of medicine or science to embrace the things that don't fit this evidence based definition, it's really an all or nothing proposition. We do society a disservice letting people think things that can't be validated are still somehow adequate "alternatives".
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Science to Westerners is not the same as science to people from other places in the world. To say that medicine is medicine if it uses science means nothing. This is why there should be a distinction between Western medicine and other forms. Because "Western science" is not the same as science.
I respond to this by simply quoting the above:

Just stop. Something is either evidence based or it's not. Has nothing to do with where in the world it originates. Either someone can demonstrate the efficacy and safety using reproducible scientific methodology or they can't. If they can, it constitutes medicine. If they can't it's not medicine, period. You don't get to create new categories of medicine or science to embrace the things that don't fit this evidence based definition, it's really an all or nothing proposition. We do society a disservice letting people think things that can't be validated are still somehow adequate "alternatives".
 
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DingoPingo

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Just stop. Something is either evidence based or it's not. Has nothing to do with where in the world it originates. Either someone can demonstrate the efficacy and safety using reproducible scientific methodology or they can't. If they can, it constitutes medicine. If they can't it's not medicine, period. You don't get to create new categories of medicine or science to embrace the things that don't fit this evidence based definition, it's really an all or nothing proposition. We do society a disservice letting people think things that can't be validated are still somehow adequate "alternatives".
That's close-minded thinking. I'm done here. Take time to read over what you've written. Life is not black and white. And neither is medicine.
 
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That's close-minded thinking. I'm done here. Take time to read over what you've written. Life is not black and white. And neither is medicine.
Actually, medicine is very black and white. It either has evidence to support it or it doesn't. That doesn't mean that we know everything or that some alternative modalities are incorrect, just that we do not have the evidence to support their use. Physicians are held to a high standard for patient care that warrants the need for evidence for treatments.
 

IsleyOfTheNorth

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That's close-minded thinking. I'm done here. Take time to read over what you've written. Life is not black and white. And neither is medicine.
Science is science. There aren't different kinds of science and if you think there are (or even could be) than you don't understand what science is.

There are different types of medicine, in the sense that there is physical therapy, surgery, drug therapies, etc. But don't confuse that with different kinds of medicine. Don't get stuck on the word "kinds" - English doesn't have a better word and it creates confusion. There are two groups: Medicine and not-medicine.

Acupuncture to redirect your chi will never be medicine. It's pure poppycock. Needle therapy used to simulate muscle fibers could be medicine if it produced results in a scientific setting (i.e. not anecdotally). Heck, I'd accept chi redirection if it could be replicated scientifically.

There is only medicine and not-medicine. That's not closed-minded, it's logic. Something can't be all-blue, and all-red by definition. You can call everyone who thinks that something can't be all-blue and all-red close-minded, but it's nonsense to do so. If it's not evidence-based, it's not medicine - by definition.

What you call "alternative medicine" is really "alternatives TO medicine".
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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That's close-minded thinking. I'm done here. Take time to read over what you've written. Life is not black and white. And neither is medicine.
The difference between science and your way of thinking is that if something that seems like hogwash produces a positive, reproducible result, it will be accepted as science. Your way of thinking doesn't even want to participate on the chance that your beliefs will proven false.
 

Law2Doc

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That's close-minded thinking. I'm done here. Take time to read over what you've written. Life is not black and white. And neither is medicine.
There's apparently an indistinguishable fine line for some people between being open minded and believing in magic. If it can't be demonstrated and replicated using scientific methods it's not something appropriate to use as a course of treatment. Period. No gray areas - VERY black and white. There have been many home remedies that have eventually been validated and adopted, and at that point they get elevated to evidence based, but the majority of these practices can't be validated because they rely on anecdote, lore and sometimes magical thinking, not science. At any rate those things have absolutely no place on a student doctor advice board and there's probably someplace elsewhere on the web to spout this stuff where you won't come off so off-base.
 

gonnif

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There's apparently an indistinguishable fine line for some people between being open minded and believing in magic. If it can't be demonstrated and replicated using scientific methods it's not something appropriate to use as a course of treatment. Period. No gray areas - VERY black and white. There have been many home remedies that have eventually been validated and adopted, and at that point they get elevated to evidence based, but the majority of these practices can't be validated because they rely on anecdote, lore and sometimes magical thinking, not science. At any rate those things have absolutely no place on a student doctor advice board and there's probably someplace elsewhere on the web to spout this stuff where you won't come off so off-base.
Perhaps some fact based discussion on this is in order.

Using Basic Science to Develop an Innovative Program in Complementary and Alternative Medicine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3019605/
With support from the NIH-sponsored curricular CAM initiative, faculty from the department of physiology and biophysics at Georgetown University developed a M.S. program in CAM in 2003.
(note: one of the main drivers of this program also was the director of the GT SMP and is now Associate Dean of GME at GT)

White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy
http://www.whccamp.hhs.gov/pdfs/fr2002_document.pdf
This Report is grounded in the conviction that first-class scientific research on
these approaches and well-designed demonstration projects - of the same high
quality required for conventional approaches - is crucial to helping all Americans,
and those who care for them, make the wisest healthcare decisions.


National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health
https://nccih.nih.gov/
The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) funds and conducts research to help answer important scientific and public health questions about complementary health approaches. NCCIH works to determine what is promising, what helps and why, what doesn’t work, and what is safe.
 
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Horse Apiece

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Perhaps some fact based discussion on this is in order.

Using Basic Science to Develop an Innovative Program in Complementary and Alternative Medicine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3019605/
With support from the NIH-sponsored curricular CAM initiative, faculty from the department of physiology and biophysics at Georgetown University developed a M.S. program in CAM in 2003.
(note: one of the main drivers of this program also was the director of the GT SMP and is now Associate Dean of GME at GT)

White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy
http://www.whccamp.hhs.gov/pdfs/fr2002_document.pdf
This Report is grounded in the conviction that first-class scientific research on
these approaches and well-designed demonstration projects - of the same high
quality required for conventional approaches - is crucial to helping all Americans,
and those who care for them, make the wisest healthcare decisions.


National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health
https://nccih.nih.gov/
The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) funds and conducts research to help answer important scientific and public health questions about complementary health approaches. NCCIH works to determine what is promising, what helps and why, what doesn’t work, and what is safe.
You remind me of one of my favorite professors who would always answer my questions with research articles to read, that we would later discuss.
 
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gonnif

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You remind me of one of my favorite professors who would always answer my questions with research articles to read, that we would later discuss.
And these will be on the final!
 

Mad Jack

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I'm confused why this is an issue considering the general direction of med today is towards prevention and the view that body systems are a part of an interconnected whole. It is only a matter of time until the market pushed all programs in that direction. The majority of patients I have seen in nicer regions always ask about CAM options.
We have a word for alternative medicine that has been proven to work.

Medicine.