Justifying Out of State Vet School

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ematt768

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I have been accepted to Tufts and Oregon State and am waiting to hear back from Florida. The problem is that I am from Texas and expect to get admitted to Texas A&M, which is a great school and is much cheaper.

I really want to go out of state though.

For those of you choosing between an in state and out of state school, how are you justifying the extra cost?

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well I don't have an in state, but I really want to go to RVC and will probably go there if I get in. London obviously will be a lot more expensive than the living costs of most US schools. But that's fine with me. I am going to be living somewhere for 4 years and life is too short to spend it somewhere I won't enjoy. So if you've lived in Texas all your life and you just want to go to Tufts or wherever to experience a new place, I say go for it. Don't listen to anyone who says "it's only 4 years" because really, life is very very short. Plenty of people incur out of state costs and manage just fine. I've spent so much time worrying about money and have come to realize it's really not worth it. In the end, you will be a vet and make a decent living and be able to pay back your debt no matter where you go. After traveling so many places, and getting to live in New York and the UK, I've realized travel is also really important to me and makes some extra debt worth it a 100 times over. Good luck with whatever you decide!
 
I hear you. I'm also a Texas resident, but I am not originally from here and have no real desire to stay. I've been accepted to Ohio State, and I absolutely fell in love with the school when I interviewed there. :love:

I'm just waiting until March to get A&M's letter before I even really think about. I, however, certainly don't "expect" to get admitted to Texas A&M. I know everyone says your chances are better at your in-state school, but A&M's selection criteria is heavily slanted toward a high GPA, which I don't have. So.... I'm kind of expecting a rejection letter, i.e. the decision will be made for me.
 
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A&M's supposed technophobia would probably do it for me. I believe in using computers, and the headache of transferring notes and such to digital form... horrible.
 
Texas A&M University College of Veterinary Medicine's in-state tuition for the 2008 - 2009 academic year: $13,742

That is really cheap for vet school tuition. Definitely something to think about. If I actually get accepted there, I will have a lot of thinking to do.
 
A&M's supposed technophobia would probably do it for me. I believe in using computers, and the headache of transferring notes and such to digital form... horrible.


First of all, I completely agree with Trilt, this was a huge issue for me, even during the application process.

I am also instate and interviewed at Texas AM a couple of weeks ago. I was a little unimpressed with the interview as far as public health (my interest) opportunities when I talked with them. That is not to say they are not a good school, they definitely are and alot of the vets I work with graduated from there, however, because of the way I want to direct my career Iowa and CSU (where I already got accepted) provide much better opportunites for me, which is how I am justifying it! In the end, I believe it will pay off.

As said above, life is short and we get one shot at it, so go where you want.

But then again, I am originally from RI and not from TX so I feel no real ties to staying in TX.
 
I dont have the "luxury" of an in state school, so i cant offer anything about the decision...


I am curious, however, to know when Oregon State notified you...and how. I thought they didnt let OOS students know until mid-March at the earliest...
 
Well I have not been accepted anywhere yet I too am weighing that decision. Luckily or unluckily for me, my in state is Upenn so there's only about a 6,000 difference between in state and out of state schools. I interviewed at Kansas and I loved the area and the school. So if I get accepted to both there's a good chance I'd take Kansas just because it really impressed me.
 
Congratulations on all of your vet school options! There are a number of things to consider, while I agree that traveling is important and everyone will be taking out loans to pay for school, etc, I also think it's worth considering tuition. If your in state tuition will only be <$14,000 (and the school has a good reputation), you will literally be paying double that as an out of state student. It's going to be 4 years of your life spent doing a lot of studying and a lot of time spent in the class room. You could consider moving after school and traveling that way. On the flip side, if you really want to leave and go elsewhere you should do that! Congratulations again on some acceptances to good schools!
 
I am not writing this post to offend anyone, I am just stating my honest opinion.

I am a graduate student in the department of Veterinary Pathobiology at Texas A&M. I am a teaching assistant for the 2nd year DVM parasitology course and a tech in the CVM clinical pathology department. With that said, here is my take on the veterinary program here.

Texas A&M is a good school, HOWEVER karmapple is correct&#8230;A&M's selection criteria is heavily slanted toward a high GPA. I teach the 2nd year students and I will be the first to tell you that most of them (with a few exceptions) have very good grades but lack any common sense or real-life experience.

Don't get me wrong A&M has a wonderful "hands-on" approach to learning and the majority of the faculty is excellent, BUT there is something to be said for leaving your home state and learning how things are in other parts of the country.


Honestly, I would trust your gut on this decision. If you have not racked up excessive student loan debt already and you can afford to go out-of &#8211;state, do whatever you think with make you the happiest.
 
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I'm in thunderhawk86's boat. As a PA resident, I don't save much money through in-state tuition at U-Penn. Add in the cost of living in Philadelphia, and it is definitely no bargain; I can likely attend school cheaper or at equivalent cost somewhere else. I'm hoping to be accepted out-of-state when I go through the application cycle this coming fall. Now...if I was saving $20,000 a year by going in-state, my decision might be different. There's definitely something wonderful about doing something new and going where you think you'll be happiest. But for me, I would sacrifice that warm, fuzzy feeling I get from a school for saving nearly $100,000 in loans. BUT THAT'S ME. My decision would be heavily slanted toward the cheaper choice, but that doesn't mean it's the right option for everyone. You need to go where you will be able to live with your decision. If that means choosing the school that will let you pay off loans faster, so be it. If that means going where your heart is truly "in it", that's cool too.
 
Well I have not been accepted anywhere yet I too am weighing that decision. Luckily or unluckily for me, my in state is Upenn so there's only about a 6,000 difference between in state and out of state schools. I interviewed at Kansas and I loved the area and the school. So if I get accepted to both there's a good chance I'd take Kansas just because it really impressed me.

I heard the state grant PA residents get is on the cutting room floor of the budget right now. Education is taking a major hit for next year, so it's unknown if we're going to be awarded even half of what current students receive. Just something to keep in mind. And, I heard Kansas is a GREAT school. Several students I know from PA ended up there last year and LOVE it.
 
Whever you go, you're going to be in a classroom most of the time, studying a lot of the other time, and getting a DVM. Does it really matter where that classroom is? Especially if it will save you a ton of money?

I'm not sure what the figures are for your schools, but say that OOS is an extra $15,000 a year. In four years you're spending $60,000 just to be in a different location - that's a chunk of money I'd like to keep.

Staying put may not be ideal, but if you graduate with less debt you will have a freer lifestyle when you're done. Unless massive debt doesn't bother you :rolleyes:

But if you have your heart set on going somewhere else you really have to decide if the price tag is worth it. You can talk to some practicing vets and see what they say about their debt.
 
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Yeah, what Lailanni said. If you have to take out student loans, going to an expensive vet school makes very little sense if you have a low-cost alternative. Those loans will compromise your lifestyle for 30 years to come.

Going to RVC as an international student is the most expensive vet school option, if I'm not mistaken. Insanely expensive. If you really want to live in London, take a year off before vet school and get a Working Holiday Visa and go live and work over there. Or, work in the UK for a couple of years after vet school (lots of locum jobs over there).

Everyone has unique circumstances. RVC might be a great option if you have family money, or if you have a relative you can live with, or if you absolutely cannot get into any other vet school. But, frankly, vet school is for learning vet medicine, not for expanding your cultural horizons.

I know I sound like a hardass. Sorry. It's just that it's easy to spend money, much harder to pay it back.

(Am I hypocrite? Maybe. But for me, Massey was cheaper than my in-state option, taking into account lost wages, anticipated state tuition increases and cost of living. But it's still expensive, and not debt I took on lightly.)
 
actually, I don't think RVC is the most expensive option. UPenn's tuition is upwards of 40k/annum and RVC is just about 37k/annum. Not a huge difference, but RVC's tuition is about the same if not lower than many schools' OOS tuition. As for cost of living, London is expensive compared to say, Kansas, but it's not as expensive as everyone thinks. What you pay in housing is highly dependent on the exchange rate, and right now, it wouldn't be hard to find rent for $600 a month (dollars, not pounds). I don't think that's much more than many places. Also, I think using all the available public transportation ends up being much cheaper than owning a car and buying gas and there's plenty of student discounts on transportation in London. If I'm not mistaken, it looked to me like Dublin was the most expensive option. For those of us that don't have an in-state school there really is no choice but to incur debt. But although incurring 200k in debt sounds like a humungous burden, it is a bit misleading. Your debt will stay the same (plus interest) but your salay and inflation will go up. So 10 years down the line, paying $1500/ month probably won't seem like a lot.

Also, I understand vet school is for learning vet med, but I don't think that means it's no time to broaden cultural horizons. When you are out of vet school you will have a job or internship and that won't leave you with a ton of time to travel either. I think the longer you put it off, the less likely you are to do it. Plus, after spending some time with some vet students at Edinburgh I learned that they definitely work hard, but they play hard too. They still go out on weekends and play on sports teams, etc. Just because you can't go out every night of the week and you have to study every day, doesn't mean you will never have free time. Plus, (I know for RVC and Edinburgh at least) you don't have to go home over your breaks. So after you've done your EMS you have free time over holidays. The vet students at Edinburgh also get to go on trips (my friend went to China to take an acupuncture course at a sister school of Edinburgh).

It's definitely a highly personal decision, and you have to decide how important your location is to you. For me, it's a big factor. When I'm done studying and finally do have free time, I don't want to be in the middle of nowhere with nothing fun to do. Texas A&M sounds like it has very cheap IS tuition, so you should consider it. I know what the answer is for me though...I'm going to live where I want while I'm young and enjoy it. Now...if I could just get an acceptance to RVC :xf:!!
 
As someone who had to work full time through college to survive, and is still paying off student loans, I can tell you that fiscal difference may not seem like a lot now, but at the end of your vet school career, it might be the difference between accepting a dream residency vs an ok one, or vs practice. It might be the difference between establishing your own practice several years earlier.

For me, IS in signficantly cheaper that OOS. I couldn't justify spending an extra 10-25k/yr unless I was offered full ride somehow (I am applying to joint programs.) I know what it is like to struggle to make mortgage, car, and student loan payment...to eat only beans and rice for 2 meals a day (and that be all you eat in a day) to make ends meet....and to know that evacuating for a hurricane means you don't have a pay check, which means you pay something (or everything) late, damaging your credit rating.

Just my thoughts...and maybe doesn't apply to anyone else.
 
For US students going to RVC, do they have a 4 year option as opposed to the normal 5 year program that students do there?

I know I have one friend there now and she is in the 5 year program. The extra year definitely adds to the cost.
 
Hey David,
Yes they do have a 4 year option, but you cannot apply directly into it and just having a bio or related degree does not automatically get you into it. The admissions says some people are accepted to the 4 year program based on the impression they make at interview and their overall application. They say the extra year is not really a matter of ability, but rather that US students often need an extra year to adjust to living abroad and British education.

The extra year definitely makes a huge difference. I'm not sure I would choose RVC if I only got into the 5 year. I know that probably makes me sound like a total hypocrite from what I just said above, but it's not really about the extra cost. I don't want to wait another year to graduate and some people I've talked to (US students) said it's a lot of repetition the first year (i.e. stuff they've already studied in undergrad). I'm hoping having studied there before will make them feel I don't need the extra "adjusting time."

Sorry to the OP for side-tracking this thread! I vote you go to Tufts, I was just there and it was beautiful! It also seemed like they really do their best to assist students financially. I'm sure if you called their fin-aid dept, they'd be really helpful alleviating or addressing your concerns!
 
I feel like I've bought this up a million times previously, but I have to mention it again. I know a very lovely girl who was accepted to Cornell and OKState... and chose OKState. The difference in cost per year was something like $25k, so while she loved Ithaca and desired the "state-of-the-art" type of school, she's attending here and hasn't regretted it at all. She would like to pursue a residency, and maybe then she'll go to Ithaca.

You just haveto weigh your own personal options, and also imagine paying back loans during a poorly paid residency (if you plan to go that route).
 
There is a third option that's somewhere in between...some schools allow you to become a resident after one year. While this may not be something that can be considered too much now for people who have already applied (they either applied to and were accepted to/will be accepted to schools that this is true for or not). But something to think about for those who are a little further out from applying. Or those who may have unknowingly applied to schools for which this is true. For example, UC Davis lets you become a resident for tuition purposes after one year. That was a big factor in my decision process. Sure Kansas is cheaper to live, but at 4 years out of state, it wasn't the cheaper option compared to Davis.

Of course, VA-MD would have been the cheapest for me (though not by a ton), but I, too, chose OOS for a variety of reasons. One of those was the increased integration of technology into the classroom at Davis, and I honestly don't regret it. It's one of the things I'm most pleased with about school... But maybe that's just me.
 
Thanks for all your advice. I appreciate it. It will be a hard decision, we'll see how things play out.

Someone asked about hearing from Oregon State. I heard earlier this week by email. Only OOS people have heard so far, they are still in the process of IS interviews.
 
I didn't read the replies, but I am just throwing my two cents. I was accepted to Tufts and am from Florida, but didn't even apply to UF cause I actually missed the deadline. Anyways, I've always wanted to go to Tufts, but am a little worried about the possibility of 200,000 in debt and making only 50,000 +/- a year. But, a vet I work with told me when he graduated he was 150,000 in debt and only made 18,000 a year (he graduated in 82). But, now he lives next to the beach and is debt free... so the point is debt is something you can always budget in and pay off. That's how I'm keeping myself happy when thinking about the financial side of things. Do what you really want to do. If I had applied at UF and been accepted I would still choose to go to Tufts... it looks like such a cool school!

Maybe I'll see you at Tufts :thumbup:
 
Why do you want to go out of state for vet school? Specific reasons relating to a specific program, or just for "the experience"?

I would have given my right arm to be paying $13,000 a year in tuition for vet school. Sadly, my in-state had admissions requirements that were unfriendly for my personal background.

IMHO, there are a few reasons to choose an out of state school over an in-state school--but they are VERY few.

As pointed out on several other threads, the amount of debt we're talking about isn't just eating ramen for another year or two--it's the difference between being a homeowner by the time you're 45 and not. The difference between having a child and not. It is a TREMENDOUS amount of debt. Please please do some research--a previous discussion on this very topic was brought up by someone last year, I believe. Try the search function on this site or others.

My personal advice would be to think carefully about the decision. If you want to broaden your horizons, save your money and do some traveling after you graduate. You'll appreciate it more anyway.

And by the way, lest you worry about your peers at A&M from what someone else said--every single vet school has young people with little to no life experience. And every single vet school has older people with more common sense. That doesn't change, no matter where you go.

Just my $0.02.
 
Do what you really want to do. If I had applied at UF and been accepted I would still choose to go to Tufts... it looks like such a cool school!

Ironically I am from Massachusetts and didn't even apply to Tufts. But I am still holding out hope of getting into UofF. Had I applied to both and been accepted, I would choose Florida over Tufts.

Maybe thats because Tufts tuition is currently 33k a year while versus Florida's 40k first year and $18.5k the following three.

Tuition comparison for 4 years:
Tufts: $132k
Florida: $96k
 
Go to the cheaper school, unless you can pay it or have help.

The difference in tuition is much much different once you graduate than what you think before.

I say this as a hypocrite because I chose a school which was about 10K per year more in tuition than my "in state" and I also had the choice to go to Ohio, which would have been even cheaper (since I could have changed my state residency). And I had no finances to pay it out of poket or help (Uncle Sam and Ciltibank were my "help")
 
Haha that is very ironic. Obviously I am not choosing Tufts because of cost reasons. At first I was worried about the extra cost, but after talking to vets, lawyers, and others who have done masters or PhD's, they all seem to have had similar experiences that the debt is doable and you have to do what you really want to do. Like I said, ever since I was young being a Tufts vet was my dream. I like the philosophy at Tufts, the campus, their signature programs and the area. What's more, I hate the UF campus and the area (I grew up about 30 minutes from UF), and their concentrations don't appeal to me.

In addition, I strongly disagree that having some more debt is going to prevent you from having a home by the time you are 45 or having a child. Like a vet told me today, "you aren't going to be in the poor house even with your debt." When factoring in your salary with your debt, chances are you will have more money than a lot of families with kids and a house. For example, I work with techs and receptionists with families and homes and I know that when I am a vet, even with a ton of debt, I will have more expendable income than they do.
 
Just remember that there ARE vets who are struggling now, with the recession. Recessions happen. Our associate vet is down to 16 hours/week, after working 50+/wk. The S/N clinic she was working at closed down because the funds dried out. Appointments are down, making it hard for practice owners to justify having a vet in if there aren't the appointments to support them. If your reading the vet mags, it seems obvous this is a big worry right now...there are lots of articles about keeping practices afloat. The requests for discounted services are going up. Hopefully by the time we graduate, this recession will be over, but you can't be sure there won't be another one within a decade. When people don't have jobs, or thier homes are foreclosed on, pets are on the short end of the financial stick.

Think about it this way....if you are talking to someone still in thier field, then obviously they made it. But are you getting a good sample? Wouldn't you have to randomly select a reasonable N from, say, a graduating class, and see where that N is now to safely say finances won't be a problem.

The other issue here is that a lot of families have houses now that are well beyond thier means, and livelihoods that were formed using credit cards. Husband's career is IT to protect financial sectors, and I am sad to say that we see it every single day. We have spent more time in the past 6 months advising people, intelligent, well educated, successful people, on how to improve thier credit and solvency so they can keep thier homes. We do this as volunteers for a local community organization. There are vets, surgeons, and corporation presidents among those we counsel. Please be aware that antecdotal evidence is valuable, but doesn't give a representative picture.

Really sit down and right out all the numbers before you decide. Take an objective look. Go talk to someone in the financial aid office of your school, or maybe a business professor. Someone who can give you a very objective view of what it means to have a given amount leaving in student loans, and have your credit solvency limited by the amount of debt you have (it will be tougher, as it is now, to get loans for business) and how that amount leaving could be the payment on a practice of your own.

There are always variations and exceptions, but make sure you know, in real numbers, what that means. How many meals is that? How many gallons of gas? etc.
 
In addition, I strongly disagree that having some more debt is going to prevent you from having a home by the time you are 45 or having a child. Like a vet told me today, "you aren't going to be in the poor house even with your debt." When factoring in your salary with your debt, chances are you will have more money than a lot of families with kids and a house. For example, I work with techs and receptionists with families and homes and I know that when I am a vet, even with a ton of debt, I will have more expendable income than they do.

There's actually a ~400-post long thread on VIN about the cost of veterinary school related to debt. It is astounding how many practitioners are completely oblivious to the debt level of new graduates and what this means to the profession. Many question, "New grads have over $200K in debt? Are they buying big-screen TVs?" and just do not realize the base tuition costs. They think vet students must be living extravagantly to build up that level of debt--it's news to them that tuition alone at many schools is in the $40K/year range (and some much higher). Someone pointed out that when someone they knew graduated, "they had $10,000 in debt but their starting salary was only $15,000, so I don't think student debt is anything new."

To which I say, 10,000 to 15,000=his debt equaled 67% of his starting salary. 250,000 to 80,000= debt is over 267% of your starting salary.

As sumstorm pointed out, there are veterinarians--new grads, established doctors, etc--living in efficiency apartments and staring down 30+ years of paying upwards of $1,500 a month in monthly payments. If you don't think that's a tremendous monkey on your back, I urge you to crunch some numbers and take a good long look. Other professions do NOT have the debt:starting salary ratio we have.

Make whatever choices you want, but I urge you do so some research and do it with your eyes open. The pracitioner you spoke with might very well not have an idea of what is truly going on with vet school tuition these days.

Also keep in mind tuition is rising about 10% a year at a lot of schools. That adds up to additional tens of thousands of dollars over the course of your education BEFORE interest.

If you really think that 200K + debt (which is really 400K plus when you pay it back over 20-30 years) means that you do not have to alter your plans for home ownership or chidren, etc, please please crunch some numbers.

FYI, my first choice for undergrad was Duke--since I was six years old. I did a summer program there the summer before my senior year of high school. I cried like hell when I ended up going to my state school. I would have given ANYTHING to go there and I felt like a failure for YEARS because I didn't go there. It was a huge sore spot that I'm not proud to say I'm still a bit bitter about.

However, now I am so so so grateful that I did not end up paying private tuition on top of my veterinary school debt. I would have been crippled for life--even though I plan on specializing. I can't imagine what life would be like with $400K in debt before interest. Point being, I know what it's like to have dreamt of going to school since you were young, etc etc. In my opinion, unless there's a clear benefit professionally, you'll be much better off if you save $100K than if you go to your "dream school." :)

That said, decide what you want and own your decisions--just please do yourself the favor of looking into what peope on here are saying about the debt load. Make sure you understand what you are getting into and what you are sacrificing, as well as what you are gaining.
 
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Alliecat, I desperatly wanted to attend Purdue, an IS state school for me, at that time. I received 0 scholarships to Purdue. None. It was also before the state granted funds for honors diplomas, etc. My parents said 18 years = adult, if you want to go to school, it is all on your own dime. It was cheaper for me to attend a private liberal arts college (ranked highly in every current ranking of lib art schools) out of state. They provided scholarships that brought the cost down under an IS state school. It felt horribly betrayed by my state. I was really angry about it. I think my education was actually better, in the long run, but I still feel irritated whenever someone says 'but why would you have moved from Indiana ?' (particularly when they are talking about regional/state 'braind drains') because I just feel like saying 'they sure didn't value my education or keeping me in the state as a student.'

Education is an interesting challenge in the US. You can be tried as an adult as young as 14, be financiall responsible for yourself at 18, and yet are a dependent for education purposes to 24.
 
I strongly disagree that having some more debt is going to prevent you from having a home by the time you are 45 or having a child. Like a vet told me today, "you aren't going to be in the poor house even with your debt." When factoring in your salary with your debt, chances are you will have more money than a lot of families with kids and a house. For example, I work with techs and receptionists with families and homes and I know that when I am a vet, even with a ton of debt, I will have more expendable income than they do.

I don't know about this. Mortgage companies look at your debt-to-income ratio when they decide whether or not to give you a mortgage. You may have gotten a mortgage in recent past, but with the credit crisis etc. etc., lending criteria are really going to tighten up. I wonder, too, about how debt-to-income ratio will look if/when you want to buy a practice. Hopefully, student loan debt will be regarded a little differently than other debt, but, I'd rather be conservative in my expectations.

Also, say you earn 70K a year. In California (from experience - don't know about other states), you'll end up with about $3600 a month after taxes. If your school loans are $1500, so that leaves you with $2100 for everything else. That may sound like enough, until you try to live a middle class lifestyle on it. If anyone hasn't made a budget, I would encourage you to do so. Make sure you have someone in the workforce look it over and reality-check it.

It's worth mentioning that vets have not generally had the amount of debt that vet students how will have. The cost of education has far outpaced inflation. That's why I would take what older vets say with a grain of salt.

I know I'm being a downer, but this is a serious, serious subject and it's important for potential vet students to know what they are getting into.
 
The older vet I was talking to had 150,000 in debt and a starting salary of 18,000 at graduation, back in 1982. I know it's going to be tough. I'm not imagining an easy life or time paying back my student debt. I was accepted to a law school with an average starting salary of 125,000 and a tuition a few thousand less than Tufts. But, that's not what I want to do. If I have to live in an apartment and drive my 2000 Honda Civic until it becomes history to save money and chisel at my debt then I will do it. But, in time a house and new car will come and the debt will continue to decrease. Also, kids don't usually come with a one person income, at least no kids in my immediate and extended family came with a one person income. I have been crunching numbers and budgeting, when I think of a house and kids I think of a second income too... I'm not planning on starting a family by myself.
 
gone
 
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Define "middle class lifestyle". Semi-new car (i.e. not 10-15 years old) that you are having to make some sort of payments on? Gym membership? Cable/sat TV? Internet? New clothes? Cell phone? Meals out? Starbucks? Nice apartment in good part of town?

There's a lot of luxuries in life that people view as necessities and while I agree that it can be difficult to get by at times, generally its the lifestyle itself that is the expensive problem. My husband and I are currently getting by on about $1100 a month quite happily - though we do go without a lot of things. $2100 a month - we'd feel like we were rich!

That may be true where you live, Jochebed (and believe me, I wish it were that way everywhere!!!) but if Laurafinn was referring to the salary, taxes and cost of living in California, that's a very very different picture. Where I live, $1,100 per month will barely get you a studio or one-bedroom apartment. :eek: Gas prices, groceries, bridge tolls, parking and other living expenses are also higher. I'm pretty sure that $70K salary Laurafinn referred to would translate to something lower in a different part of the country if all other factors are equal.
 
I second KittyRex. Average 1 bedroom rent in seattle is around $1,100. Then there's utes, parking, transportation, food, etc. Some places in the country are just much, much more expensive to live in.

You can start out being a frugal new grad paying back loans but will you want to be that frugal at 30, or even 40 years old?

Vets are having trouble in this economy and a nice salary is by no means guarenteed. At school we were forwarded some articles about an emergency hospital in cape cod (nice area) going bankrupt. I've read several other articles and heard first hand about some very prominent clinics having financial problems. I know recent grads who cannot find work.
 
Vets are having trouble in this economy and a nice salary is by no means guarenteed. At school we were forwarded some articles about an emergency hospital in cape cod (nice area) going bankrupt. I've read several other articles and heard first hand about some very prominent clinics having financial problems. I know recent grads who cannot find work.

Have either links to the articles online or anything you can forward me about it? Really curious as there are only a handful of specialty hospitals in MA and the only one I know of on cape cod only opened up a couple years ago.

Sorry, googling found it: http://www.bostonherald.com/busines...fected_by_economy/srvc=business&position=also

They only opened less than 3 years ago. I don't know how accurate a predictor they would be of the field as a whole though. Building a new hospital is huge money and to do it during the bubble immediately before the economic nightmare we are currently in seems to be more just unlucky timing than anything.
 
My husband and I are currently getting by on about $1100 a month quite happily - though we do go without a lot of things. $2100 a month - we'd feel like we were rich!

Not if you have $1,000-1,500/mo to pay off in student loan debts. :)

It is interesting that there are some pre-vet students saying it will all work out perfectly when the AVMA and other organizations have expressed concern about it, vet students are expressing concern, as are recent graduates, and even some established vets.

Does anyone actually have the stats to back this stuff up? What was the average starting salary in 1982, if we are going to base our conclusions on a single individual? Was this a residency? Did it only cover from graduation to end of the year first year? I guess I actually like data to back it up.

The data from AVMA seems to suggest something different:

"Statistics paint an even darker picture. A review of American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) data reveals educational debt represented 184 percent of entry-level salaries for new graduates in 2007,compared to 91.6 percent in 1980. The association’s most recent survey shows last year’s mean educational indebtedness totaled $106,969, although some students are saddled with $250,000 or more in loans. Tuition increased nearly 100 percent since 1997, yet starting salaries rose just 46.5 percent during the same 10-year period. Interest rates now top at 6.8 percent, and the vast majority of 2007 graduates reported to AVMA that they accepted positions paying between $47,000 and $58,999 a year."

I would assume that 1980 wasn't exceptionally different than 1982. That info is from an article in DVM360 (I apologize for not having the exact reference...it was something I clipped to a file when I was writing an essay during applications.) I wonder why there is such a difference in anecdotal evidence and statistics? :confused: I was looking for stats from 1982, and can't track them down without paying some money. I would love to know what tuition was, interest rates, and salary vs. experience.
 
I wish I lived in California, the prices in Cali are wayyyyy cheaper than the prices in NYC. I'm currently, finishing my Ugrad and since the only school in NY is Cornell, that will be my 1st choice.

All the other vet school will be out of state for me, paying out of state tuition. The rent in NYC is sky high. One bedroom is 1200 or 1400, a studio is about 1000 a month. Food and groceries are expensive. Bottle of water is about 2 or 2.50, its quite expensive. I would give anything if NYC could have the prices that other states have.

When I get in Vet school, I plan on getting my own apartment so I dont have to deal with noisy roomies Or split one with another vet student.

I know I will be in debt by the time I graduate....we just have to be a bit smart about it.
 
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Define "middle class lifestyle". Semi-new car (i.e. not 10-15 years old) that you are having to make some sort of payments on? Gym membership? Cable/sat TV? Internet? New clothes? Cell phone? Meals out? Starbucks? Nice apartment in good part of town?

There's a lot of luxuries in life that people view as necessities and while I agree that it can be difficult to get by at times, generally its the lifestyle itself that is the expensive problem. My husband and I are currently getting by on about $1100 a month quite happily - though we do go without a lot of things. $2100 a month - we'd feel like we were rich!

Edit: I didn't see where it said that is 'post' debt payments in the above passage, so not sure why it was suppose to be so obvious to me.

Seriously, an education, which I assume you have, is a luxury. a phone is a luxury. Where I grew up, there weren't laundromats, let alone ones with free internet. Heck, when I lived in part of NJ just a few years ago, the nearest internet service was 70 minute drive away, and it wasn't free. I grew up where eating more than a cup of beans and rice a day was a luxury. I understand what luxury is. I also understand what bad fortune and economic harship are. I know what it is like to be fired from a job because your car broke down. You are right, I don't want to ruin a residency or a job as a vet because I can't afford a reliable car. If that is 'living luxury' then I plead guilty. However, I know of very few people who someone can't point thier finger at and say 'unnecessary luxury.'

Let me be very blunt, many forms of student debt are NOT forgivable. That means if you ever have a disaster, you are on the hook for that debt, even if you declare bankruptcy. May fortune always smile on you, but for those of us who haven't been very fortunate the bettercourse seems to include not bothering to justify higher expenses in the long term to satisfy a short term desire. That would, actually, be part of the huge issue facing our entire country right now....short term gain at the cost of long term debt that people are then unable to pay for whatever reason.

You are saying, it sounds like, 'don't live beyond your means' but to me, thta would mean if OOS vet school will cost you more than ISS (after considering all factors) and you have to take loans out for that education, then you are living beyond your means, and taking a great risk that eventually you may not be able to handle that debt. If your theory is 'I won't do it after school' why would you do it now? Oh, the 'you' in that statement is universal.
 
Define "middle class lifestyle". Semi-new car (i.e. not 10-15 years old) that you are having to make some sort of payments on? Gym membership? Cable/sat TV? Internet? New clothes? Cell phone? Meals out? Starbucks? Nice apartment in good part of town?

There's a lot of luxuries in life that people view as necessities and while I agree that it can be difficult to get by at times, generally its the lifestyle itself that is the expensive problem. My husband and I are currently getting by on about $1100 a month quite happily - though we do go without a lot of things. $2100 a month - we'd feel like we were rich!


As KittyRex and Lailanni pointed out, living on the West Coast is a different kettle of fish, and $2,100/month will not get you a fiscally worry-free middle-class lifestyle. Think $1,200 rent, $400 food (groceries and meals out), $200 PGE, $30 landline phone, $80 cable internet, $80 car insurance, $80 gasoline -- those are the very basics for what I would consider middle class, and I've hit $1870 without including a car payment, car repairs, doctor/pharmacy copays, clothing, cell phones, gym memberships or any of life's unexpected expenses.

Why should veterinarians, who have earned a professional degree, need to live a less than middle-class lifestyle? (Rhetorical question here; I'm familiar with the praxis.)
 
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Fair enough, but maybe as new graduates with a lot of debt we're not supposed to immediately have a worry-free middle-class lifestyle. In fact, few people in this country have such a thing. Why should we expect that right out of school?

I don't know about other people but after 8 years of hardcore school, large sacrafice of my money, time, and a large portion of my youth, I think I'm due for at least some compensation that will not leave me scrapping for a decent lifestyle.
 
maybe as new graduates with a lot of debt we're not supposed to immediately have a worry-free middle-class lifestyle. In fact, few people in this country have such a thing. Why should we expect that right out of school?

I think there's a difference between living like a student for several years after graduation in order to pay down student loans and living like a student for the rest of your life.

Other people in other professions don't do this. Look at lawyers, medical doctors...why are veterinarians expected to?
 
The average salaries for each of the professions you mention above are well above that of the veterinary profession. If you want to live luxuriously after school you don't go to veterinary school... you go to medical or law school. You don't have to live like a student for the rest of your life, you just shouldn't expect to live like a human doctor or good lawyer. More like a professor.
 
The average salaries for each of the professions you mention above are well above that of the veterinary profession. If you want to live luxuriously after school you don't go to veterinary school... you go to medical or law school. You don't have to live like a student for the rest of your life, you just shouldn't expect to live like a human doctor or good lawyer. More like a professor.

Exactly my point--and why is this? When the training is roughly equivalent and financial outlay is the same? When we're dealing with the same talent pool for applicants, how does veterinary medicine compete when you talk about tangible benefits across the different professions?

The answers are mutifactorial, but to me the largest concern is the seemingingly exponential increase of the problem over the past 10-15 years.
 
What is the "it" in this question? I'm not sure to what you are referring. Living frugally? Having debt?


Fair enough, but maybe as new graduates with a lot of debt we're not supposed to immediately have a worry-free middle-class lifestyle. In fact, few people in this country have such a thing. Why should we expect that right out of school?

The 'it' is living beyond ones means. If you are suggesting that a frugal lifestyle is appropriate after school so that you can pay down your debts, why justify attending a more expensive education venue, which is a form of living beyond ones menas? It is kind of like saying 'I can't really afford a new car, but since I will have to take the loan out, I will take the Hummer.'

I am not saying that education isn't worth going into debt over...but I think until you experience just how hard it is to pay some debts back, it is difficult to really grasp how much debt puts you at risk. Particulary educational debt, which isn't forgivable.

To me, justification means 'I have to come up with a reason for this.' Obviously, if your IS doesn't accept you or there isn't an IS, you have to pursue OOS. If the OOS is cheaper than your IS at the end of the program, no need to justify. If you want to go into a program that isn't offered at your IS, OOS makes sense. But if the reasoning is that the area isn't interesting enough, your classmates aren't fun enough, you can't maintain an interest in travel after becoming a vet...I would say that is much more a relection of the individual. After living in half a dozen countries and half a dozen states, I can honestly say that I am able to find friends, fun, adventure, and opportunity anywhere.

I have been at both ends of the spectrum...so desperatly poor that I lived out of my car for nearly a year and fortunate enough to own a lovely home and a business. It saddens me deeply to watch as friends and family struggle with economic decisions they made early on sink them now, when they are in thier 30-60's. Most of thier decisions weren't horrible mistakes....individuals weren't living lavishly. Life happened; natural and medical disasters, chronic disease in themselves or loved ones, a single investment like a business failed to perform, divorce, death....all of these can tip the scales. It is just easier to set oneself up for sucess early, including the ability to repay student loans quickly and efficiently.

Not my decision, just enough experience to realize the risks.
 
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