Kaiser (full COA) vs Pitt

[b1209]

**Edited to reflect updated decision/details**

Hello all, I have seen a few people post similar schools in comparison, but I would still like help with my decision as well since I have seen a lot of different opinions and to bounce ideas off other people.

Kaiser:

PROS:
- Graduate medical school debt-free and could pay off undergrad loans early off -- financial freedom for a heightened quality of life
- Extremely personalized - class of 48 students and I feel like there will be an abundance of resources and attention provided
- Very unique opportunity to be a part of an inaugural class and despite the hiccups that it will inevitably cause you can help create your own clubs, free clinics, and help craft the curriculum with renowned faculty (not many people can say that)
- Emphasis on mental health and wellness for their students which I have not seen a single school match
- I would LOVE to live in Southern California
- Longitudinal clinical curriculum, which is unique and I like

CONS:
- With step 1 now being P/F, there will be more emphasis on networking and school name that Kaiser will probably struggle with since its a new school
- No guarantee how match lists will be like - big risk on perhaps matching into top academic programs
- Research enterprise kind of questionable???
- The practicality of moving across the country for the first time … during a global pandemic
- I know no one in Southern California - my support system doesn’t really support my decision of wanting to go here
- I would need to figure out how to navigate LA traffic, buy a car, etc a lot of logistical things about life there would be hard to adjust to early on

Pitt

PROS:
- Top 15 nationally-ranked med school and ranked 5th best in the country for research (NIH funding)
- No doubt that I would be in a "good" position for residency in whatever specialty I am interested in … the match list is very strong
- Research (and the quality) is heavily emphasized in the curriculum
- I feel like it's a great fusion of being somewhat close to my support system but still in a city-environment that is newer and Pittsburgh is cool
- Love the kids in my prospective class
- I know a current M1, really nice to be able to reach out to them personally and ask them for advice and support

CONS:
- Estimated COA: 52k/year total = ~208,000 k
- Traditional curriculum - seems like they aren’t flexible in changing even with step 1 becoming p/f
- Students did NOT seem that happy when I was there during the interview
- Really large class size as well - less individualized attention and a lot more competitive than either other options


Any thoughts, comments, and ideas toward my decision would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you so much!!!!

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[Dr. Anonymouss]

Kaiser. Take the money.

 

[deleted621740]

Sorry to divert the thread, but when did you hear about your merit scholarship at Ohio State? Also when were you accepted? Thanks!

 

[b1209]

Sorry to divert the thread, but when did you hear about your merit scholarship at Ohio State? Also when were you accepted? Thanks!

PM'd you!

 

[talkeetnadenali]

I'm facing a similar decision and it was helpful to read your post. Two realizations that were helpful to me (full disclosure, I will likely be attending KP after much thought):

I'm also in debt from undergrad and looking at a similar debt burden. 400k didn't seem that bad to pay off initially, but when I really looked into physician salaries in academic medicine (even the highest paying specialties) and factored in taxes, take home pay is approximately 200k (+/-30k). This means that even if you lived rent free and contributed 100% income to loans, this equates to two years of your working life and millions of dollars in opportunity cost if you were to invest early. Graduating debt free is an incredible opportunity and means more than it seems at this point.

Regarding opportunities to match at elite residencies, I decided to check out the match list for the inaugural class of a fairly new medical school, Oakland Beaumont, from 2015 when their very first class matched. Of course there are many reasons why one shouldn't interpret much from match lists, because the major reason that students from the most prestigious schools match so well is because they are already top students and more likely to care about prestigious residencies. Even with that in mind, of 47 total students, this inaugural class at a “low tier“ school matched orthopedic surgery at UMPC (Pitt); ENT at New York Eye and Ear (Sinai); EM at Duke; anesthesiology at Michigan, Iowa and MGH; psych at Harvard Longwood, among many other solid matches. I don’t know much about Oakland’s inaugural class, but with KP’s location, full CoA scholarships, faculty and hospital network, KP is arguably attracting significantly stronger students for their inaugural class. Considering this and the top schools other KP acceptees are deciding between judging from SDN posts, I don’t see any program in the country being out of reach for students who chose KP over a more established school.

 

[b1209]

I'm facing a similar decision and it was helpful to read your post. Two realizations that were helpful to me (full disclosure, I will likely be attending KP after much thought):

I'm also in debt from undergrad and looking at a similar debt burden. 400k didn't seem that bad to pay off initially, but when I really looked into physician salaries in academic medicine (even the highest paying specialties) and factored in taxes, take home pay is approximately 200k (+/-30k). This means that even if you lived rent free and contributed 100% income to loans, this equates to two years of your working life and millions of dollars in opportunity cost if you were to invest early. Graduating debt free is an incredible opportunity and means more than it seems at this point.

Regarding opportunities to match at elite residencies, I decided to check out the match list for the inaugural class of a fairly new medical school, Oakland Beaumont, from 2015 when their very first class matched. Of course there are many reasons why one shouldn't interpret much from match lists, because the major reason that students from the most prestigious schools match so well is because they are already top students and more likely to care about prestigious residencies. Even with that in mind, of 47 total students, this inaugural class at a “low tier“ school matched orthopedic surgery at UMPC (Pitt); ENT at New York Eye and Ear (Sinai); EM at Duke; anesthesiology at Michigan, Iowa and MGH; psych at Harvard Longwood, among many other solid matches. I don’t know much about Oakland’s inaugural class, but with KP’s location, full CoA scholarships, faculty and hospital network, KP is arguably attracting significantly stronger students for their inaugural class. Considering this and the top schools other KP acceptees are deciding between judging from SDN posts, I don’t see any program in the country being out of reach for students who chose KP over a more established school.

Thank you so much, this was really helpful and I'll definitely look into a lot of the things you mentioned

 

[Bond-HydrogenBond]

Sorry to divert the thread, but when did you hear about your merit scholarship at Ohio State? Also when were you accepted? Thanks!

Also would like to know this!!

&& my two cents, Kaiser. Without the burden of debt over your head, I can only imagine you’ll do great things. But if you need more convincing, just go on an interest calculator and see how much accrues. Remember, you begin accruing interest the moment $$ is dispersed and it adds up.

 

[b1209]

Bumping this bc I am still very much confused as I have narrowed it down to Pitt and Kaiser

Every day I go back and forth and I am not sure if I am mentally prepared with the risk that is associated with Kaiser vs the cost down the line associated with Pitt -- help

 

[HingleMcCringleberryPSU]

Kaiser. 400K total debt is a massive amount hanging over your head while you go through residency. Yes Pitt would give you an edge for surgical specialties, but the difference is not worth anywhere near that amount of money. Go to Kaiser, crush your classes/boards, network well with the surgical faculty, and publish a ton of research. If you are smart and motivated enough to get into these schools to have these options, there's no reason you can't make your own path to a surgical speciality from Kaiser.

 

[Yhwach]

Kaiser. Pitt isn't good enough to give up full ride.

 

[deleted1045683]

There’s a lot to consider here, as with other “Kaiser (FREE) vs. Established Top20 school” posts. I’m grappling with a similar dilemma, and I disagree with anyone who claims the answer is clear-cut. For these decisions, you should ask yourself the following: 1. What is your specialty of interest (with the caveat that it may change over the course of medical school)? 2. Support system/family considerations/etc. (i.e. if you have children or would like to start a family soon, you might prioritize staying closer to family) and last but not least 3. Proper acknowledgement of all of the risks associated with attending a new institution vs. all of the perks of the financial freedom (and having to start new clubs/organizations because none exist yet doesn't seem like a perk to me!)

I disagree that Kaiser is an exception and that somehow it is well-established because of where the faculty came from / the reputation of Kaiser hospitals; the truth is that just like any other new medical school, the faculty are trying to do lots of things that they have never done before (starting from scratch with a new school, using virtual anatomy, etc.) and THERE WILL BE A LEARNING CURVE that ultimately you will have to deal with as the inaugural class.

You need to decide if you are okay with the trade of financial freedom (NO DEBT!) for some potential opportunity costs and the hurdles associated with curriculum adjustments and unforeseen challenges that are guaranteed to arise with any new institution.

If you are okay with the risks/drawbacks, then you should go for Kaiser! Just be informed: more likely than not, you WILL have to hustle harder for the more competitive specialties and the more prestigious programs; and all things equal, people graduating from Top 20 medical schools will still match at overall more “prestigious” programs—that’s just unfortunately how it works.

All this to say: Go with your gut! If it were me, I’d pick Pitt because I’d rather bet on myself (and take out loans) than bet on an institution.

 

[HingleMcCringleberryPSU]

There’s a lot to consider here, as with other “Kaiser (FREE) vs. Established Top20 school” posts. I’m grappling with a similar dilemma, and I disagree with anyone who claims the answer is clear-cut. For these decisions, you should ask yourself the following: 1. What is your specialty of interest (with the caveat that it may change over the course of medical school)? 2. Support system/family considerations/etc. (i.e. if you have children or would like to start a family soon, you might prioritize staying closer to family) and last but not least 3. Proper acknowledgement of all of the risks associated with attending a new institution vs. all of the perks of the financial freedom (and having to start new clubs/organizations because none exist yet doesn't seem like a perk to me!)

I disagree that Kaiser is an exception and that somehow it is well-established because of where the faculty came from / the reputation of Kaiser hospitals; the truth is that just like any other new medical school, the faculty are trying to do lots of things that they have never done before (starting from scratch with a new school, using virtual anatomy, etc.) and THERE WILL BE A LEARNING CURVE that ultimately you will have to deal with as the inaugural class.

You need to decide if you are okay with the trade of financial freedom (NO DEBT!) for some potential opportunity costs and the hurdles associated with curriculum adjustments and unforeseen challenges that are guaranteed to arise with any new institution.

If you are okay with the risks/drawbacks, then you should go for Kaiser! Just be informed: more likely than not, you WILL have to hustle harder for the more competitive specialties and the more prestigious programs; and all things equal, people graduating from Top 20 medical schools will still match at overall more “prestigious” programs—that’s just unfortunately how it works.

All this to say: Go with your gut! If it were me, I’d pick Pitt because I’d rather bet on myself (and take out loans) than bet on an institution.

I understand these sentiments and concerns, but don't you think going to a school that is massively more expensive because it is a name brand school is betting on the school and going to a school that is free but lesser known but grinding out good grades/boards/research is betting on yourself?

 

[deleted1045683]

I understand these sentiments and concerns, but don't you think going to a school that is massively more expensive because it is a name brand school is betting on the school and going to a school that is free but less known and grinding out good grades/boards/research is betting on yourself?

Haha I just realized that my logic goes both ways, you're right! Again: it's a tough decision!!

 

[b1209]

ugh, I wish I had a time machine lol thanks for these points /:

 

[mightychondria713]

Where did you decide?

 

[b1209]

Where did you decide?

I still have no clue hahaha

I am really interested in something "competitive" like ophthalmology or plastics (both of which don't have a home residency program at Kaiser) and I am worried that going to Kaiser, in addition to the hiccups of going to a new school, will set me back in time for residency applications -- just out of the natural way step 1 going p/f + new school will have on KP.

I have talked to so many advisors and people I know that are in medicine and they are each saying the same thing: it will be more difficult, but not impossible. So at this point, I am trying to wrap my head around what I may be interested in and if it is worth the 250k investment at Pitt for the sake of taking a road more traveled?

Very lost in the sauce, my friend

 

[talkeetnadenali]

I still have no clue hahaha

I am really interested in something "competitive" like ophthalmology or plastics (both of which don't have a home residency program at Kaiser) and I am worried that going to Kaiser, in addition to the hiccups of going to a new school, will set me back in time for residency applications -- just out of the natural way step 1 going p/f + new school will have on KP.

I have talked to so many advisors and people I know that are in medicine and they are each saying the same thing: it will be more difficult, but not impossible. So at this point, I am trying to wrap my head around what I may be interested in and if it is worth the 250k investment at Pitt for the sake of taking a road more traveled?

Very lost in the sauce, my friend

If I were you, I would find a list of all ophthalmology and plastics programs. Visit program websites and you’ll likely be able to see who the residents are and where they went to medical school. If programs you’re interested in only have folks from top 10 schools, and you’re sure you won’t be satisfied if you don’t end up in those programs, Pitt may be worth all the extra debt if you have a clear understanding of the burden. If programs you’re interested in have students from a variety of med school tiers, that may give you peace of mind that a student of your caliber could match there from KP.

Of course, step 1 may be p/f and pedigree may gain importance to a degree, but it seems to be the consensus that the vast majority of the importance of step 1 will move to step 2 - so you’ll still likely have some way to distinguish yourself merit-wise.

 

[TAVR4life]

Easy choice..Kaiser


Pitt while a great institution does not warrant $260,000+ in loans. Take the money you won’t regret it.

 

[nymedschoolfan]

Go to Kaiser unless you really want to go to a top tier academic program in a surgical speciality/derm, then go to Pitt. 260k is a lot of money....

 

[b1209]

leaning toward pitt tbh HAHA someone tell me if im crazy -- i feel a lot of the risks associated with kaiser are freaking me out a bit (clinical sites being far, quality of clinical rotations, finding adequate research mentors, etc.) maybe I'm just being a chicken

 

[aSagacious]

I think a lot of people are balking at the price tag. In my opinion it's penny wise, pound foolish. Sure, it's a $250k differential. Depending on your specialty, your career earnings will be $10-20 million ($300-600k/yr x 30 yrs). Literally a drop in the bucket. But you get the assurance and peace of mind of a well-oiled top tier school.

 

[TAVR4life]

The student loan debt crisis is every real. That $250,000 loan will become half a million by the time you pay it off. That median salary you see for whatever speciality you want to do is not real, take 40% off of that for taxes plus 401K and you’ll see it’s not as much as one would think.

If you go to a US medical school, you will get a spot in a competitive residency assuming you do well academically. Do several away rotations, it shouldn’t be an issue.

 

[Yhwach]

What schools would you consider being good enough to sacrifice a full ride for?

The solid T10 to T5. Harvard, Stanford, JHU, Yale, Columbia ect.

 

[aSagacious]

What schools would you consider being good enough to sacrifice a full ride for?

Looking at the current US News rankings, I'd go to #19. Also depends on where the full ride is to. If we're talking a bottom barrel MD school I'd even consider top 30. Who cares if you're debt free if you can't match into a solid program in the specialty of your choice?

 

[Kirby Smart]

leaning toward pitt tbh HAHA someone tell me if im crazy -- i feel a lot of the risks associated with kaiser are freaking me out a bit (clinical sites being far, quality of clinical rotations, finding adequate research mentors, etc.) maybe I'm just being a chicken

Do you have someone who is going to pay for part of or all of your medical school costs? If not, you're crazy lol. Take a long hard look at how much money you'd be passing up and ask yourself if Kaiser really limits you enough to pass that up. There are DO grads, albeit very few, who manage to match into those highly competitive specialties every year. Your ability to do the same thing ultimately comes down to whether you accomplish it or not. It won't fall into your lap just because you went to Harvard over Kaiser, and we're not even talking Harvard, we're talking Pitt...lol.

EDIT: If possible, reach out to any doctor or resident you may know who has paid off/is paying off loans and get their opinion. I know a pediatric cardiologist who just turned 40 and is very much still paying off his student loans. I don't think it ruins his life, but I bet he believes he'd be in the same place but just with 0 debt if he had the opportunity for a full-ride to med school.

Also, we cannot simply assume that Kaiser's match will be poor since they're new. The student body will be a bunch of rockstars who chose Kaiser over T20 schools because of the money (which is they're whole goal of course), so I don't see why these students would have trouble matching. Again, school prestige can matter to some extent, but it's each student's accomplishments that ultimately determine how they match.

 

[b1209]

Hello,

I wanted to post this for future SDN lurkers or people who are curious about where I chose. I have decided to matriculate to Pitt in the fall!! It was weeks and weeks of going back and forth, overanalyzing every single detail of my choice, and learning more about what is important to me. It ultimately came down to 1. my comfort and 2. goals.

I am the most risk-averse and anxiety-prone person you will ever meet lol and I just felt there were far too many unknowns for my liking (which I won't disclose or list here, out of respect for the institution). I think some of these factors may be small to some people and way bigger for others -- it truly depends on who you are as a person and what you are comfortable with. I think a lot of times on these forums people impose their own values onto the original poster and I guess that's just the nature of SDN haha.

And for the second, I am extremely interested in a surgical sub-specialty including ophthalmology and plastics to name a few. I know with step 1 going p/f, things will naturally shift in importance on an individual's application, including prestige, home department, connections, who writes your LOR, and clinical experiences (step 2 included). I feel more comfortable with my application going into residency if I can try to control as many factors as possible (how a school is perceived to PDs being one of them). And as I have discussed with my mentors and the physicians I know, money comes.

The kids who are matriculating to Kaiser are trailblazers and will kill it. I have no doubt in my mind KPSOM will be extremely successful just off the sheer amount of resources, care, and attention the faculty are going to provide those phenomenal 48 students. However, all these X vs Y decisions are personal ones. I guess I came on here looking to see if anyone in the replies would reach out and make the decision for me, but only I can do that.

If anyone has any questions about anything or need advice as a pre-med, hit me up!!! I have nothing to do for the next three months lol

 

[nymedschoolfan]

Congrats! Lots of posts of people choosing the top 20 over Kaiser now

 

[aSagacious]

Thanks for the update! Good luck at Pitt.

 

[PreMed352]

You're gonna light it up! Congrats!