Kaiser Permanente (full CoA scholarship) vs. UCSD

[MD4321]

Hey everyone! This is the first thread I've seen on here about Kaiser Permanente (KPSOM), hopefully it will help others who are considering the school as well. Since KPSOM hasn't yet been discussed on here, my write up on its pros/cons is lengthy.

Context: I'm professionally interested in an IM sub specialty (likely cardiology). Would enjoy some involvement in teaching and research, but not interested in primarily doing academic medicine. Among other concerns, I'm somewhat nervous about KPSOM being brand new compared to how established UCSD is.

Also, already having a high student debt burden, financial considerations are important to me.

Kaiser Permanente School of Medicine
Pros

• Full cost of attendance scholarship: I'll actually be able to pay off my existing student debt over 4 years and will graduate completely debt free.
• Being part of the inaugural class: seems like it would have some once in a lifetime perks - our success literally being the success of the program and all the special opportunities this may lead to.
• Kaiser has their own residency and fellowship programs which are well regarded and allow some solid opportunities for research, despite not being truly "academic" programs. I suspect any KP residency/fellowship is within reach for inaugural KPSOM students.
• Out of all the career paths for physicians, working for KP is considered a desirable gig and most KP docs I've talked to are quite happy (great hours, no haggling with insurances, practicing medicine without having to worry about what patients can/cannot afford, complete medical records for patients, wonderful pension, etc.). Not saying I'd have to work for KP if choosing KPSOM, but I could see it leading to an enjoyable position.
• Something intangible about being with a class of students who made the decision to become part of KPSOM's inaugural class, likely forgoing prestige, is exciting. These seem like the folks I'd enjoy having as classmates.

Cons

• Their clinical sites are all between 30mins-90mins away when LA traffic is factored in. Not sure how happy I'd be spending hours a day in traffic.
• It is a brand new school and there will definitely be some quirks to work through.
• While their no-lecture curriculum seems innovative and exciting, it would also seem to leave much less independent time than if I went to UCSD where one can just watch recorded lectures. I value my independent time.
• Kaiser's reputation as a healthcare system is generally quite good, but there seems to be a bit of a negative stigma at times, perhaps from older physicians or those who have had negative experience in the healthcare system or with their insurance. I hope KPSOM and its graduates wouldn't be stigmatized due to this.
• Matching outside KP, especially if step 1 goes P/F, would arguably be more difficult than from UCSD. However I don't think my goals would necessarily motivate me to gun for top academic programs.
• Pasadena is great, but I would prefer 4 years in San Diego.

UCSD
Pros

• More established and prestigious: while I don't think this would be too relevant for my career goals, graduating from a top 20 school stays with you for life (but perhaps only useful for my ego, in all honesty).
• Clinical opportunities are much more diverse (free clinics, academic centers, county health centers, etc.) and easier to access - some being literally within walking distance from campus.
• More research opportunities to explore areas of interest.
• Curriculum while being traditional 2 year preclinical, is more self directed and leads to more independent (and free) time.
• Larger support network in San Diego than Pasadena.
• I love San Diego and could see myself living there eventually.

Cons

• Cost: haven't received financial aid package yet, but even if I am able to get some generous aid or partial scholarship matching, my current student debt will keep increasing. I expect the decision to chose UCSD would cost an additional 200K-350K over KPSOM.
• Since I'm not interested in a highly competitive residency or top academic position, and could see myself happy eventually working within KP or a similar system, I'm having a hard time justifying the added value of UCSD.

Summary: Basically, my gut says KPSOM is the right call, but I feel a bit crazy for passing up the opportunity to attend a top 20 school in UCSD in a location that I really enjoy.


Any thoughts, questions, or feedback is appreciated. If you are also considering KPSOM, please chime in.

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[tessellations]

Take that full COA and run to Pasadena!

 

[MD4321]

Inviting those with SDN fame to weigh in as this is the first discussion in "help me decide" involving the new KPSOM:
@gyngyn @Goro @gonnif @LizzyM @Med Ed @Moko

 

[deleted972488]

I expect the decision to chose UCSD would cost an additional 200K-350K over KPSOM.

Go with Kaiser.

 

[2020NonTrad]

I am facing a similar dilemma, trying to decide between Kaiser with full cost of attendance scholarship, Vanderbilt with 75% tuition scholarship, and UCSD with TBD financial aid. I don't yet know what specialty I want pursue but am interested in academic medicine and have concerns about Kaiser limiting opportunities there.

I share a lot of OP's thoughts about it being exciting to be a part of the first class but many of my mentors have cautioned me against it. Looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say in this thread.

 

[Engrailed]

• Cost: haven't received financial aid package yet, but even if I am able to get some generous aid or partial scholarship matching, my current student debt will keep increasing. I expect the decision to chose UCSD would cost an additional 200K-350K over KPSOM

Not to mention, interest on top of the principal over time!

 

[strappysandals]

Kaiser

 

[Icebird]

Delete this post and run to Kaiser !

 

[m1redsox]

If your goal is IM and you aren’t gunning for a prestigious residency, then I see no reason for you to add $250k of debt. Kaiser will build a solid name for itself, if it hasn‘t already. However, if you get some financial aid from UCSD and the difference becomes <$100k, then I think it’ll be a tougher choice because that isn’t very much to a cardiologist who makes $400k+ per year.

 

[I<3PopeyesFriedChicken]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation as well (also accepted to Kaiser with full COA). Unless UCSD gives you big chunk of money, go with Kaiser. That extra $300K+ of debt is a ton. Save that money and buy yourself a house down the line, travel, or do something more useful than filling a bank's coffers with the interest. Congrats on the acceptances and scholarship!

 

[TheDataKing]

You could potentially try to get UCSD to match the scholarship but Kaiser sounds like the winner if you're saving that much money!

 

[utangboy123]

I am in a similar position as you. I am choosing between 2 “top schools” (UCSF & UCLA/Drew) vs. kaiser and for now I am leaning more towards kaiser. Just like you, I am not planning on gunning for a competitive specialty or academic residency. I am leaning towards a primary care/EM residency and I confidently believe that with Kaiser’s established network and reputation + it’s outpour of resources + my own hard work, I will help be able to get into a residency whether it is within their system or in a different institution. The idea of being financial free during/after residency opens more doors for me to travel, purchase a house, start a family with my partner, help my parents financially out bc they’re getting old :’), etc without any financial hesitancy during my prime years. In addition, free COA means that I can confidently select a specialty, as well as practice in a place without the pressure of choosing something more lucrative to pay off an insurmountable debt. I know that I will be in a much happier position with that future in mind ❤ But also, I am not 100% locked into a decision yet haha bc I still have to figure out finances at my other schools, attend second look, and reflect/think more lol, but that’s what I have in mind atm.

 

[MD4321]

Amazing!!! Congrats everyone!!! I honestly would choose Kaiser in a heartbeat if I had the privilege of attaining acceptance!

I am a current premed, and I am debating applying to an early assurance med school program that would be binding if admitted(I would not be able to apply elsewhere), or holding out for Kaiser or some other medical school. If I were to go early assurance, I would have to take 4 years to graduate from my undergrad. If I chose to apply traditionally, I would likely graduate in three years. I know it would be extremely difficult to get in via traditional roue compared to early assurance, but I just feel like passing up the opportunity to possibly go to other awesome medical schools is something I really can't ignore. Also, for Kaiser's recommended courses(the ones that aren't officially required), is it expected that you have taken them when you apply unless you have some extenuating circumstances? I really, really don't want to take ochem 2 this summer or next semester, as it is being taught by the same professor teaching my ochem 1 class, and he is just a bad kind of tough. No, the class really isn't that bad, and I'm actually doing quite well compared to many others. The problem is that for his class, this generally means a C+/B-/B range. There is not *much* of a curve. I currently barely have a B(81.71%), with homework inflation(he puts in all homework points for the semester and takes away when you don't do an assignment, so our grades look higher than they actually are). I know ALOT of people who are failing and want to give up. All my other classes so far are going really well. What MCAT and GPA range is expected for applicants? I really don't test well on standardized exams and it kind of worries me. Early assurance requires 3.4 GPA/500 MCAT to maintain your seat in the future class, which I feel is more doable, but I also don't want to restrict myself from other potential options. Yes, I am a freshman .

Any input would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank you for reading my dissertation.

Best to move this and related questions/posts to a separate thread. However, here is my short take:

Best not to bank on acceptance to any one school, admissions is extremely difficult/random across the board. Kaiser in particular seems holistic and focused on fit. If courses are recommended, it is best to take them. No one knows what Kaiser's average stats will be, but based on elsewhere folks have been accepted one might speculate a median MCAT of 515 and GPA of 3.9x, although no one knows until next year.

 

[jellibean]

Thank you!!!

 

[Nope517]

I am a current 3rd year medical student at UCSD and my advice is to RUN! DO NOT GO to UCSD Medical School. The administration had a complete turnover two years ago and the new administration is incredibly incompetent. Communication with students is poor and all online systems such as course sites and enrollment are buggy. The only information I received regarding taking Step 1 was from a third party company the school brought in for a lunch talk trying to sell me a learning package. It also has some of the most malignant residencies and most of the residents I've worked with here are miserable.

 

[Nope517]

I am a current 3rd year medical student at UCSD and my advice is to RUN! DO NOT GO to UCSD Medical School. The administration had a complete turnover two years ago and the new administration is incredibly incompetent. Communication with students is poor and all online systems such as course sites and enrollment are buggy. The only information I received regarding taking Step 1 was from a third party company the school brought in for a lunch talk trying to sell me a learning package. It also has some of the most malignant residencies and most of the residents I've worked with here are miserable.

Sorry guys, I realized my post might be very anxiety provoking. There are a lot of strong reasons to come to UCSD, namely the weather/location and it's name brand in the top 20. Under certain circumstances it is still the right choice for some people. There are just some very strong reasons not to come here, and it's these reasons that cause random students to rant anonymously about their school on the internet.

To actually answer your question, I would definitely take the risk and money on Kaiser. The risk is more appealing to me than the negatives I've encountered at UCSD, and I agree with what most people are saying here about the money. Hope this helps more.

 

[MD4321]

Sorry guys, I realized my post might be very anxiety provoking. There are a lot of strong reasons to come to UCSD, namely the weather/location and it's name brand in the top 20. Under certain circumstances it is still the right choice for some people. There are just some very strong reasons not to come here, and it's these reasons that cause random students to rant anonymously about their school on the internet.

To actually answer your question, I would definitely take the risk and money on Kaiser. The risk is more appealing to me than the negatives I've encountered at UCSD, and I agree with what most people are saying here about the money. Hope this helps more.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, bummer to hear about your negative experience at UCSD. This isn't the first posting I've seen about student dissatisfaction there and while it seems amazing in a lot of aspects, out of all top 20 schools I feel like it has the most students who are vocal about its negative aspects, which is a bit concerning. Definitely helpful to hear.

 

[MD4321]

Updating this with my decision for anyone still interested. After receiving financial aid, I narrowed my options to UCSD (30k/yr scholarship), Cornell (50k/yr scholarship) and Kaiser, and I've made up my mind to commit to Kaiser!

Attending the virtual second look & town halls, as well as talking with other potential students and seeing others' post on here sealed the deal. Overall, while there is always some degree of risk, I feel there is strong evidence that the institution will excel: the faculty are excellent and I trust that they have the dedication and resources in place to advocate for their students and provide individualized opportunities that will surpass even the most prestigious schools, in many cases. While most others don't know much about KPSOM beyond the fact that it's a new school at this point in time, I'm confident in several months once information about the class is released it will gain attention as one of the most competitive schools in the country, and I have high hopes for our match results in 4 years as well.

Thanks everyone for your input here, hope this helps anyone still struggling with a similar decision!

 

[iIiiiiiIiiIiII]

Updating this with my decision for anyone still interested. After receiving financial aid, I narrowed my options to UCSD (30k/yr scholarship), Cornell (50k/yr scholarship) and Kaiser, and I've made up my mind to commit to Kaiser!

Attending the virtual second look & town halls, as well as talking with other potential students and seeing others' post on here sealed the deal. Overall, while there is always some degree of risk, I feel there is strong evidence that the institution will excel: the faculty are excellent and I trust that they have the dedication and resources in place to advocate for their students and provide individualized opportunities that will surpass even the most prestigious schools, in many cases. While most others don't know much about KPSOM beyond the fact that it's a new school at this point in time, I'm confident in several months once information about the class is released it will gain attention as one of the most competitive schools in the country, and I have high hopes for our match results in 4 years as well.

Thanks everyone for your input here, hope this helps anyone still struggling with a similar decision!

Wait, Cornell with scholarship was one of the options? Why not Cornell? Either way, congrats on your great choices and thanks for your thoughtful commentary.

 

[strappysandals]

Wait, Cornell with scholarship was one of the options? Why not Cornell? Either way, congrats on your great choices and thanks for your thoughtful commentary.

cause cornell would still be 160k more expensive with that scholarship

 

[m1redsox]

Well... Wait... Cornell with a $200k scholarship is a different story... Congrats though! Great choices!

 

[iIiiiiiIiiIiII]

cause cornell would still be 160k more expensive with that scholarship

Yeah, I think that's absolutely worth it over Kaiser in that case

 

[MD4321]

Wait, Cornell with scholarship was one of the options? Why not Cornell? Either way, congrats on your great choices and thanks for your thoughtful commentary.

When I originally made this post in February, Cornell hadn't released decisions yet. I only recently received their need-based scholarship.

Cornell is phenomenal and I really loved a lot of aspects about the school. There wasn't necessarily any negatives about Cornell that dissuaded me, although I wasn't as excited about moving across the country and paying approx 140k (before interest, closer to 200k interest factored in) more than Kaiser across 4 years. This equates to approx one years worth of physician salary after taxes or an altered quality of life for years if paying off over time.

It was more so positives about Kaiser that won me over. In my view, it is difficult to put a price on the intangible benefits that will accompany attending KP, especially as part of the inaugural class. All the evidence to date gives me reason to believe how far KP is willing to go to make their class succeed in every sense of the word: free tuition and merit scholarships for every student, the faculty that left incredible positions to start something new (deans at Harvard, UCSD, Columbia, etc.), having a full time housing coordinator and full time psychologist for students, faculty talking on the phone with students for hours, the list goes on - and this is before we have even matriculated. KP has tremendous incentive for us to succeed, much more so than Cornell, and I believe this will lead to incredible opportunities that will ultimately surpass what being a student at Cornell would offer.

This is my conclusion after evaluating all of the evidence, and one that has taken many hours of research and conversations to make. I completely understand if others come to a different conclusion. Happy to discuss more with anyone interested, feel free to message me!