KCOM and the DO/MS program?

[Justin]

Does anyone have any information or opinions on this program? I am interested in the field of pediatric oncology and I was wondering if an MS would make me a better, more accepted, more respected academic researcher? Or, should I just get the DO degree and do a little research while at KCOM? Is it a waste of money? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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[OldManDave]

Justin,

I firmly believe that time spent educating yourself is never a waste of resources. There are some disticnt advantages to the KCOM MS programs. All of the courses are internet based, which is great since you will most likely have to leave K'vill for years 3&4; but you will NEED to have high internet service or life will be HELL!

As a student, you are only allowed to take one course at a time. You might be able to apply for a 1 year respite to complete the degree b/t your 2nd & 3rd year, but I don't know of anyone who has done so previously.

Last I checked, they offered an MS in gerontology, healthcare admin, public health and were adding an MBA w/ a healthcare emphasis and an MS in BioMed Sci.

My questions to you...from the degrees offered, do you perceive any of them offering a direct or indirect benefit to the discipline in which you intend to practice? If your answer is 'yes', then it is worth considering. If it is 'no', then relish the additional free that not undertaking an MS offers.

 

[Justin]

That is what I am trying to find out. Is there any advantage, considering my career goals? Should I contact several pediatric oncologists and fellowship directors? And, as always, Thank you Old Man Dave.

 

[Toran]

what OMD said is not all together correct. The Masters in science degree is split up in to different programs, and some of the work that is required is in the classroom. However, depending on what type of research you want to do you may not need further research credentials. I am going through a similar search right now, but in a very different field. Ultimately, what I would suggest you do is to look for people who are doing what you THINK you want to do, and ask them questions about what they have done. And, if they would do anything differently.
Now, don't you think that it is a little early to start asking these questions? I don't know where you are at in the application process, but just focus on what is right in front of you for now.
I only feel the need to say this, because I am exactly like you in terms of looking too far ahead.
If you have any more questions post, and maybe I can find an answer or someone who knows what you are looking for.

 

[Justin]

Toran,

Thank you for your response. And, no, I dont think it is too early to be looking at this option. A sign of wisdom is looking past the here and now and trying to see what will benefit myself, my career, and my profession down the line. There is no time like the present to inquire about that which interests you.

 

[Chris_Topher]

I would say that the program possibly worth pursuing is the MS in Biomedical Science/Research, particularly if you plan to practice in an academic setting or publish original research. This is as close as the DO world is getting to a MD/PhD - basically a hands-on medical research degree. Before signing up, find out specifics of the training, like who will be teaching you, what research they are currently doing (get a copy of study proposals, designs & publications), and what are their qualifications to train future researchers (A DO degree alone is NOT a qualification). The research that you do towards your degree will likely be a branch of their research, because you will probably not have time or energy to design, administer, analyze, and publish your own study within the timframe of your training (superhumans notwithstanding). IF everything is up to snuff, this could be a very good program. Certainly, this is a unique opportunity that you will not likely have again in your life, particularly in an osteopathic setting. As a side-note I can tell you that KCOM and the AOA are hungry for original osteopathic research, and will reward it with $$$ and fame! - seriously)

The other programs - MPH, MBA, MS in gerentology, are internet-based training (contrary to OMD above, this is bad in my book because of poor faculty/class interaction, unless you like chat rooms), and have limited faculty with mediocre qualifications. In addition, one seeks out these degrees so they can hold positions where they are required in the applicants, i.e., insurance companies, HMOs, Public Health policy researchers. You will be much more competitive for these jobs if you get these degrees from a major "brick-and-mortar" university in a traditional teaching setting, rather than from Larry's Internet MBA, MPH and motorcycle repair school. Most major universities offer these degrees, with high quality experienced faculty, and many arrange them as night classes or weekend classes aimed at the working professional. (A few attendings at my hosp. are getting weekend MPH's from U of MI)

The above represents my opinions only, and should be regarded as such. I do commend KCOM for their efforts and progress in program development.

 

[Toran]

Chris has some really good comments, although I would disagree with him on one point. There are at least three DO/PhD programs in the us, and I would choose between them for your best fit. Each are excellent, and do not limit you to fitting under some one else's research.
Just so you know what is out there:
<a href="http://www.pcom.edu/Academic_Programs/Degree_Programs/Degree_Programs_DO_PhD/degree_programs_do_phd.html" target="_blank">http://www.pcom.edu/Academic_Programs/Degree_Programs/Degree_Programs_DO_PhD/degree_programs_do_phd.html</a>
<a href="http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/dual/do_phd.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/dual/do_phd.cfm</a>
<a href="http://cpp.camden.rutgers.edu/GradSchlFr.html" target="_blank">http://cpp.camden.rutgers.edu/GradSchlFr.html</a>
and I know that Oklahoma has something going too.
T

 

[Justin]

Chris,

I don't mean to pick a fight here, but you said " a DO degree is not a qualification". Why not? Osteopathic physicians learn the same material as their allopathic counterparts who conduct research. Granted, many researchers have additional degrees but some very fine ones do not. In fact, I worked in a lab where the primary investigator had just a MD. I know that it is exceedingly rare to find an osteopathic physician who does research without another degree but they are out there, I have found some
of them on the web at places like Emory and St. Judes. I feel that osteopathic physicians should become more involed in research, whether it be bench or clinical, not only to lend support to the efficacy of OMT but also in areas as diverse as the medical mind can imagine. Lastly, five schools offer a PhD degree in basic science areas(please correct me if I am wrong). They are OSUCOM, OUCOM, MSUCOM, TCOM, and UMDNJSOM. Others offer the MS, MPH, and MBA.

 

[Justin]

Chris,

I don't mean to pick a fight here, but you said " a DO degree is not a qualification". Why not? Osteopathic physicians learn the same material as their allopathic counterparts who conduct research. Granted, many researchers have additional degrees but some very fine ones do not. In fact, I worked in a lab where the primary investigator had just a MD. I know that it is exceedingly rare to find an osteopathic physician who does research without another degree but they are out there, I have found some
of them on the web at places like Emory and St. Judes. I feel that osteopathic physicians should become more involed in research, whether it be bench or clinical, not only to lend support to the efficacy of OMT but also in areas as diverse as the medical mind can imagine. Lastly, five schools offer a PhD degree in basic science areas(please correct me if I am wrong). They are OSUCOM, OUCOM, MSUCOM, TCOM, and UMDNJSOM. Others offer the MS, MPH, and MBA.

 

[drusso]

The DO degree is considered equivalent to the MD in the eyes of the NIH in terms of a medical degree. Holders of the DO degree who are involved in clinical research or conduct clinical research are eligible for the same kind of loan repayment programs as are MD's. I'm a DO/MPH student with a strong interest in clinical research and have looked into these areas extensively. There are several DO's at NIH or affiliated with NIH who do clinical research.

See link below for more info about loan repayment for clinical researchers.

<a href="http://lrp.info.nih.gov/extramural/FAQ_CRE.htm" target="_blank">http://lrp.info.nih.gov/extramural/FAQ_CRE.htm</a>

 

[Chris_Topher]

First, please excuse my ignorance regarding existing DO/PhD programs. My only excuse is being hidden away in Kirksville for 2 years. Good work and thanks for straightening me out.

Regarding:

Originally posted by Chris_Topher:
•....A DO degree alone is NOT a qualification (to train future researchers)...•••

Here my intention was to caution that just because a physician has a DO (MD)(or any doctoral) degree, they are not necessarily qualified to train future researchers. Be critical in your search for a mentor - in all branches of medicine there are some real winners and some real crackpots.

Of course DOs can perform research, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. This is a critical time in osteopathic medicine, and we desparately need good researchers. I am pained every time the JAOA arrives in my mailbox - 1/4 decent research, 1/4 less decent research, 1/2 article reprints from 1943? Don't get me started.

Anyways, I should know better than to post at 2:00am - a confusing post results. Damn, I did it again with this one.

One note that I should have added was - kudos for your interest in research, and stick with it. If you have specific questions about KCOM & faculty, feel free to email me (address in profile).

Chris_Topher

 

[Justin]

Chris,

No harm done. I understand your point about the quality of a program. I guess I was just getting defensive, this is hard not to do especially with all the negativity around here. Also, get some sleep!

 

[Sweaty Paul]

Christopher,

I know who you are and you were bored while at the hospital late one night. Hope all is well.

Sweaty

 

[OldManDave]

Originally posted by Toran:
•what OMD said is not all together correct. The Masters in science degree is split up in to different programs, and some of the work that is required is in the classroom. However, depending on what type of research you want to do you may not need further research credentials. I am going through a similar search right now, but in a very different field. Ultimately, what I would suggest you do is to look for people who are doing what you THINK you want to do, and ask them questions about what they have done. And, if they would do anything differently.
Now, don't you think that it is a little early to start asking these questions? I don't know where you are at in the application process, but just focus on what is right in front of you for now.
I only feel the need to say this, because I am exactly like you in terms of looking too far ahead.
If you have any more questions post, and maybe I can find an answer or someone who knows what you are looking for.•••

Toran,

I am not altogether certain as to which MS degree you are referring to -- it appears as though you are focusing on the MS BioMed Sciences? I was not even certain that that one had actually launched yet. However, in the ones I mentioned above, there are no required lab or classroom sessions...that was the purpose behind them being internet-based. My wife was/is the original group to go through the program -- she had some optional classroom time while we lived in the 'Ville, but nothing was required.

And, it is never too early to begin researching your options. However, I can empathize with what you are indirectly saying -- as I infer it -- you must first get here before you can explore your options. While there is validity in that statement, most folks get into med school by planning and not just "falling off the apple cart and landing in a med school classroom".

In that light, it is wise to explore your options, esp in context of your personal interests. However, more appropriately, you could advise not to pidgeon-hole yourself too deeply into a specific are too early on...do your research into career & training possibilities, but keep your options open!

<img src="graemlins/pissy.gif" border="0" alt="[Pissy]" />

 

[OldManDave]

Originally posted by Chris_Topher:
•The other programs - MPH, MBA, MS in gerentology, are internet-based training (contrary to OMD above, this is bad in my book because of poor faculty/class interaction, unless you like chat rooms), and have limited faculty with mediocre qualifications. In addition, one seeks out these degrees so they can hold positions where they are required in the applicants, i.e., insurance companies, HMOs, Public Health policy researchers. You will be much more competitive for these jobs if you get these degrees from a major "brick-and-mortar" university in a traditional teaching setting, rather than from Larry's Internet MBA, MPH and motorcycle repair school. Most major universities offer these degrees, with high quality experienced faculty, and many arrange them as night classes or weekend classes aimed at the working professional. (A few attendings at my hosp. are getting weekend MPH's from U of MI)•••

As Topher has astutely pointed out -- he mentioned this to me in the student lounge the other day -- I did not make my response "complete". Honestly, he made some points that I had planned to include, but some reason, I did not -- musta been old age or something!!

The MS classes, excepting the MS BioMed Sci - which I do not know much about - are taught over the internet. And a major disadvantage of that format is that your learning is largely 'self-taught'. While that may be fine for many subjects, there are definitely many that do not lend themselves to the internet-based format. For example, BioStatistics -- I am pretty strong math person and I would not want to have to teach myself stats w/o the guidance offered by a professor in a classroom setting. I watched my wife struggle through it and it was not pretty.

Another observation by Topher merits repeating...in my opinion, these degrees are not sufficiently rigorous that Joe or Jane Blow could waltz in, complete this degree and be a competitive candidate in the professional world snas the DO degree. These programs were designed to complement someone with a DO degree and not as a stand alone degree.

Furthermore, internet-based degrees are so new, have yet to establish themselves into mainstream academia and are frequently assoc with less-than-reputable degree programs [Larry's internet school nursing, computer repair and motorcycle mechanics]. In that context, in the professional world, I suspect you would be at a disadvantage competing for employment.

However, as folks who do this program are more likely to be physicians adding some alphabet-soup & training/exposure to the non-medical aspects of the career(s) of their choice -- there may be an advantage to undertaking one of the programs. That is why I would only suggest that you enroll in one of them IF you feel it will benefit you in YOUR career path -- there is no way to make a blanket endorsement or condemnation of the programs -- their value is dependent upon what your needs are. Were I to have secured an MPH and then become an anesthesiologist -- where's the benefit? But, were I to be a Gerontologist or a PM&R doc...I could see great benefit for an MGH or MPH...see what I mean?




<img src="graemlins/pity.gif" border="0" alt="[Pity]" />