Kiss of Death??

[Dedikated2liftn]

Hey all, I just interviewed yesterday and pretty much came to the conclusion that if you do not have shadowing experience (regardless of my research experience), then you are pretty much already thrown into the rejection pool (at least at this school). Consequently, I felt frustrated after leaving the interview because regardless of my pretty strong stats, this one factor might bar me from acceptance. Just wondering if it is the same way at other schools you guys have interviewed at. Thanks.

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[DrBowtie]

Do you have any type of clinical experience?

 

[Darksmurf]

If no shadowing experience means no clinical experience whatsoever: that is, you've only ever been in a hospital or with a physican as a patient, then yes, that could spell trouble, but probably not automatic rejection.

 

[DrMichelle]

I don't think that having no clinical experience immediately gets you thrown in the rejection pool, but I think that it is a major red flag. One of the things that admission committees are looking for is applicants that are sure that they want to go into medicine - and as much as people can do research, I think that they want shadowing, even if it is minimal, to show committment to medicine.

Maybe do a little bit of shadowing and send an update to the schools? I know the whole process seems like jumping through hoops, but maybe doing something like that would prove to schools that you are committed to medicine. Just a thought. GL with the process.

 

[foofish]

Hey all, I just interviewed yesterday and pretty much came to the conclusion that if you do not have shadowing experience (regardless of my research experience), then you are pretty much already thrown into the rejection pool (at least at this school). Consequently, I felt frustrated after leaving the interview because regardless of my pretty strong stats, this one factor might bar me from acceptance. Just wondering if it is the same way at other schools you guys have interviewed at. Thanks.

I think it's been somewhat established that having shadowing/clinical volunteer experience is important at most schools (which is why many premed committees now even require it in order ot get a letter)...otherwise schools are wondering how you know you really want to be a doctor if you've had no actual exposure to the field.

That said, I doubt it's the kiss of death...and if you have a ton of research experience and are applying md/phd (I don't know if you are) or are interested in research more than clinical, I'm sure the lack of clinical exposure is not going to be the thing to sink your application.

They offered you an interview so they're clearly interested in you, and lack of clinical wasn't enough of a factor to prevent an interview....schools aren't going to interview someone they "know" they're going to reject. If for some strange reason this application cycle doesn't work out, then focus on clinical experience for next year....but don't count yourself out yet.

 

[Eric Lindros]

You don't need shadowing experience at most schools. It helps, but you certainly don't need it.

 

[Depakote]

You don't need shadowing experience at most schools. It helps, but you certainly don't need it.

I'd say you do need shadowing (or some equivalent clinical experience) at most schools. If it's not explicitly stated in the MSAR, you'll be hard pressed to get in without it.

 

[mintendo]

Your lack of shadowing experience still got you the interview didn't it?

 

[Eric Lindros]

I'd say you do need shadowing (or some equivalent clinical experience) at most schools. If it's not explicitly stated in the MSAR, you'll be hard pressed to get in without it.

Insteresting, because I got into 4 schools so far with no shadowing experience whatsoever. As far as clinical experience, I had 2 months volunteering in the ED but that's it.

A friend of mine who is in the class of 2009 got into 5 schools with 0 hours shadowing, 0 hours clinical volunteering, but this persons mother and father were nurses (I'm not sure if that helped or not). Aside from that he was heavily involved with school and had a great MCAT and gpa.

I know these are just individual cases, but I would make the argument that you in fact do not necessarily need to have shadowing experience, although it is always recommended as a way to get to know the profession.

 

[cstar23]

I have no shadowing and an acceptance, so it can happen. I think different schools value it differently, so it may be a deal breaker at some even if you have volunteer clinical experience, while at others it's encouraged, but they don't mind if you make up for it elsewhere. I found it really hard as a post-bacc to find shadowing opportunities, since I don't come in contact with doctors through my work and I don't have the undergrad premed connections which might make it easier.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Sorry, I should've clarified...when I said shadowing, I also meant clinical exposure/experience in general. And in terms of my research experience, I'm employed full time as a pharmaceutical chemist for Pfizer. Hope that give a little more info. Thanks!!

 

[geno2568]

i find it to be more of a sticking point in state schools than private ones. In my Tufts interview, neither interviewer ever asked me about my clinical experience.

 

[Eric Lindros]

i find it to be more of a sticking point in state schools than private ones. In my Tufts interview, neither interviewer ever asked me about my clinical experience.

Insteresting because I sort of had the opposite experience. My state schools seemed to care less about my clinical experience but the privates all asked me what I had done clinically that confirmed my desire to be a doctor.

I think it just varies from school to school, but I know you don't necessarily HAVE to have it, although I would never advise anyone to not have some clinical experience, just for their own good.

 

[45408]

this is too late for the OP, but if anybody's reading this, and they haven't done shadowing, DO IT. You're going to be a doctor for the rest of your life. The least you should do is spend a couple days each year seeing if you actually like the job.

 

[Towelie]

If you have other volunteer/clinical experience, then shadowing doesn't matter. If not, you're in trouble.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Ok well if it's so fundamental to one getting into medical school why the heck isn't it part of the pre-med curriculum?? You're required to take the MCAT, orgo, calc, English, etc. but at no schools that I know, is it a requirement to complete the pre medical coursework. Yet, if I'm to believe the majority of the posts on here, it is weighed just as heavily as those required elements. My frustration is probably coming through with this post, but it just seems somehow insidious to "require" an element that is not a portion of the premed curriculum.

 

[ADeadLois]

Ok well if it's so fundamental to one getting into medical school why the heck isn't it part of the pre-med curriculum?? You're required to take the MCAT, orgo, calc, English, etc. but at no schools that I know, is it a requirement to complete the pre medical coursework. Yet, if I'm to believe the majority of the posts on here, it is weighed just as heavily as those required elements. My frustration is probably coming through with this post, but it just seems somehow insidious to "require" an element that is not a portion of the premed curriculum.

They want you to have "real world" exposure to medicine that can't be taught in a classroom. "Experience" is a difficult thing to measure, so they can't make it a hard-and-fast yes/no requirement (in other words, you're not "ineligible" if you don't have it). It's not one of those things that you have to be able to prove, not necessarily have a grade and/or score.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

But here's the thing (at least for the school I interview with yesterday), they made me feel ineligible because of my lack of clinical experience. In fact, the very first thing one of my interviewers mentioned was "I just wanted to make certain that you don't have any clinical experience, because it will influence the Adcom's decision." So you can probably imagine how that sat in the back of my mind throughout the course of the interview and afterwards.

 

[ADeadLois]

But here's the thing (at least for the school I interview with yesterday), they made me feel ineligible because of my lack of clinical experience. In fact, the very first thing one of my interviewers mentioned was "I just wanted to make certain that you don't have any clinical experience, because it will influence the Adcom's decision." So you can probably imagine how that sat in the back of my mind throughout the course of the interview and afterwards.

You're not ineligible. You're ineligible if you don't take Orgo or the MCAT. You're lack of clinical experience will count against, but they won't immediately dismiss your application (after all, you made it to the interview stage).

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

I'm curious to see, any other opinions on this?

 

[Cirrus83]

Hey all, I just interviewed yesterday and pretty much came to the conclusion that if you do not have shadowing experience (regardless of my research experience), then you are pretty much already thrown into the rejection pool (at least at this school). Consequently, I felt frustrated after leaving the interview because regardless of my pretty strong stats, this one factor might bar me from acceptance. Just wondering if it is the same way at other schools you guys have interviewed at. Thanks.

Hmm, I've heard people say that shadowing is over-rated and that you want something more substantial as far as clinical experience goes. But then again obviously plenty of people have gotten in with just shadowing.

But if you don't have any clinical experience whatsoever then...yeah you need something!

 

[RustNeverSleeps]

Ok well if it's so fundamental to one getting into medical school why the heck isn't it part of the pre-med curriculum?? You're required to take the MCAT, orgo, calc, English, etc. but at no schools that I know, is it a requirement to complete the pre medical coursework. Yet, if I'm to believe the majority of the posts on here, it is weighed just as heavily as those required elements. My frustration is probably coming through with this post, but it just seems somehow insidious to "require" an element that is not a portion of the premed curriculum.

No offense, but it's sort of common sense. Clinical experience is not weighed as heavily as your GPA, etc., but it is important and a red flag when absent. Medical training is an incredible investment of time, money, and effort. How my adcom sees it (and many others too, I would guess) is that anyone who is serious about becoming a doctor would get clinical experience to see if they like the job, working with patients, etc.

 

[foofish]

Ok well if it's so fundamental to one getting into medical school why the heck isn't it part of the pre-med curriculum?? You're required to take the MCAT, orgo, calc, English, etc. but at no schools that I know, is it a requirement to complete the pre medical coursework. Yet, if I'm to believe the majority of the posts on here, it is weighed just as heavily as those required elements. My frustration is probably coming through with this post, but it just seems somehow insidious to "require" an element that is not a portion of the premed curriculum.

Well, as I mentioned in my post above, at least in terms of some undergrads it *is* a requirement of the premed curriculum, in reaction to the trend in med school admissions. E.g. I did my prereqs through Columbia's postbac program, and to even be eligible for the committee letter--and it's a red flag to med schools if you *don't* have a committee letter--you had to complete a minimum of 120 hours of health-related volunteer/work experience, and some percent of that had to be clinical patient exposure.

Also, doesn't MSAR cite the percent of research and clinical experience of matriculants for each school? Both numbers are usually very high (60-90%).

But to the OP, what's done is done, so try to just put it out of your mind....unless you think that you could add clinical experience and update them in time for the decision on your file.

 

[LizzyM]

You need shadowing or some other clinical experience. It can be paid or volunteer but it must involve people who are seeking medical care or in a rehab hospital or nursing home.

My sig line says the rest...

 

[Mr. Tee]

The Dean of Admissions at UCSF said you don't need shadowing experience to get in there.

 

[alwaysaangel]

The Dean of Admissions at UCSF said you don't need shadowing experience to get in there.

Yeah, but I'm gonna guess that if you had absolutely no form of clinical experience - it would weigh pretty heavily against you.

I mean - how can YOU know you want to be a doctor if you've never been exposed to a physician at work?

 

[Revilla]

I have a degree in Communications/Broadcast Media. One of the things that's required at most (if not all) journalism schools is a semester-long internship at a newspaper or television station during your junior year of college. Most other professions have them too, I know. If you don't do one (with documented journals, evaluations, etc), you don't graduate. It's usually about 12-20 hours a week, every week, and the reason is because they don't want to turn out journalists who go into the industry starry-eyed, thinking it's a glamorous line of work that will land them on the Today Show or Dateline or NBC Nightly News directly out of school.

It's the same thing here. I just don't get why med schools don't specifically state it as a requirement since it essentially is -- and with good reason. You should probably get an idea of the nuts and bolts of interacting with patients before you devote yourself to four years of grad school and 4+ years of post-graduate residencies and fellowships. The only way to do that is to volunteer or work in a clinical setting where you have direct contact with patients.

 

[degoo_]

You need shadowing or some other clinical experience. It can be paid or volunteer but it must involve people who are seeking medical care or in a rehab hospital or nursing home.

My sig line says the rest...

You brought a smile to my face. I kept thinking (and was told previously) that my volunteering in a nursing home didn't really count as clinical, even though I help some nurses and interact heavily with the residents.
Thanks!

 

[45408]

The Dean of Admissions at UCSF said you don't need shadowing experience to get in there.

In fact, you probably don't need any ECs at all!


My guess is that if you got into UCSF without any clinical experience, then you probably have a first author publication in Science.