Knowing what you know now, would you decide to choose medicine?

[bronx43]

Medicine is a raw deal for anyone who went to a top undergrad. Unless you truly love practicing and being a physician, there is no reason to go into this profession. Personally, I would have gone to business school and do finance. I would be working crazy hours, but it's not like I have any free time right now as it is.

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[anonymousername]

Medicine is a raw deal for anyone who went to a top undergrad.

would you mind elaborating on this part?

 

[bronx43]

would you mind elaborating on this part?

What I meant by that is students at top undergraduate institutions have many opportunities that ones at second tier schools don't. Unless you really love medicine and can't think of anything else that would make you happy, there are far better opportunities available that are more lucrative or have lucrative potentials.
The top of that list, of course, is finance. Investment banking, private equity, hedge funds, venture capital all pay a ridiculous amount of money. A good portion of my buddies went into finance. They're pulling $250-350k at the age of 24-25. One's going to Wharton and another is going to Harvard Business School, both paid for by their private equity firms. They're going back to the firm at around 400-500k. And if you perform, with a certain degree of luck, you can make principal or partner, and get carried interest. From that point on, you're talking a 7-8 figures. In HF, maybe 8-9 figures as a manager.

But, all these opportunities are bottlenecked at the undergraduate and MBA (which is largely dependent on previous employment and/or undergraduate institution) level. Unless you're a mathematic genius surpassed by few (in which case a quant fund might take you), you're gonna have a tough time even getting an interview at a bank or firm.

So, my advice to those at Ivy Leagues, or a school with a top 10 BBA program, take a look at finance. If you really can't stand making pitch books and doing valuations all day, try management consulting. It's a lot less lucrative, but still pretty good if you can make it past associate. Principals at consulting firms pull 250-350k, with performance bonus. Partners are usually 600k base with bonuses up to $2 mil.

 

[GMed]

What I meant by that is students at top undergraduate institutions have many opportunities that ones at second tier schools don't. Unless you really love medicine and can't think of anything else that would make you happy, there are far better opportunities available that are more lucrative or have lucrative potentials.
The top of that list, of course, is finance. Investment banking, private equity, hedge funds, venture capital all pay a ridiculous amount of money. A good portion of my buddies went into finance. They're pulling $250-350k at the age of 24-25. One's going to Wharton and another is going to Harvard Business School, both paid for by their private equity firms. They're going back to the firm at around 400-500k. And if you perform, with a certain degree of luck, you can make principal or partner, and get carried interest. From that point on, you're talking a 7-8 figures. In HF, maybe 8-9 figures as a manager.

But, all these opportunities are bottlenecked at the undergraduate and MBA (which is largely dependent on previous employment and/or undergraduate institution) level. Unless you're a mathematic genius surpassed by few (in which case a quant fund might take you), you're gonna have a tough time even getting an interview at a bank or firm.

So, my advice to those at Ivy Leagues, or a school with a top 10 BBA program, take a look at finance. If you really can't stand making pitch books and doing valuations all day, try management consulting. It's a lot less lucrative, but still pretty good if you can make it past associate. Principals at consulting firms pull 250-350k, with performance bonus. Partners are usually 600k base with bonuses up to $2 mil.

Just curious about a few other things:
How are there job prospects? I fully agree with your assessment about the insane amount money made in a short amount of time, but how many of these jobs are available?
ex) Harvard grad, what are the chances you are pulling down 500,000 per year for those that do choose to go into finance?

Also how is the stability? I've heard alot of people in finance getting fired with in the past few years.

Hows the job satisfaction? I have friends in finance and they are completely burnt out where one quit his job after 5 years cause he couldn't take it anymore working 70+ hours per week.

 

[bronx43]

Just curious about a few other things:
How are there job prospects? I fully agree with your assessment about the insane amount money made in a short amount of time, but how many of these jobs are available?
ex) Harvard grad, what are the chances you are pulling down 500,000 per year for those that do choose to go into finance?

Also how is the stability? I've heard alot of people in finance getting fired with in the past few years.

Hows the job satisfaction? I have friends in finance and they are completely burnt out where one quit his job after 5 years cause he couldn't take it anymore working 70+ hours per week.

Job prospects, coming out of undergrad, will depend on recruiting at your school. My undergrad had a top 5 BBA program, and all the bulge brackets and top consulting firms flocked to us. If you have respectable standing in your class, and was able to get a decent internship or two, you're golden for a bulge bracket or top consulting firm.

Job prospects, after working for several years, depends entirely on what you want to do and what you were able to learn during your work experience. Two of my best performing friends got PE offers, due to their rigorous IBD experience. A few other ones didn't land PE, and are just staying put in IBD. A few more left for MBA and who knows what they'll do after.

The thing in business is that you never just chill, like how you can do in medicine (to an extent). If you want to improve, you have to constantly learn new skills and have the work experience to back it up.

Life in IBD sucks hard. Some banks are better than others, but on average, you're looking at 90 hours a week. A bad week can be 120+. But, if you can land PE or HF, that number gets dropped down to 60-70. You simply do less pitching and more valuations. Face time also means less in PE.

Job stability differs by PE, IBD, HF, VC, trading. The jobs with the higher earning potentials are going to be less stable. A lot of HF guys just want to hit it big with one good fund, and pull 7-9 figures. They don't really care that their next fund might tank. PE and IBD are more stable in that banks don't fall often (though 2008 was an exception), and private equity shops are usually safer in their investments than HF. But, even if you do get fired, the worst case scenario is going corporate. Money isn't good, but it's safe and it's easy.

Overall, finance is one of those fields where you need the "go big or go home" attitude. You don't do it for the love of finance. You do it for the love of making it big. But, the flip side to that coin is this. People who burn out in finance or consulting can usually land a cushy corporate job that pays well, but not exorbitantly well. Principals at consulting firms can jump ship to corporate at $250k (40 hrs/wk). Banking VPs or principals can jump to the middle office and make around that. So it's not like you have to choose between starving or having no life. You just have to choose between living the MTV Cribs life or a regular upper middle class life.

Medicine is safe, but nowadays it's less lucrative. And I'm guessing it'll become progressively less lucrative. If you love medicine, then by all means, it's a great life where you don't need to worry about the state of the economy. If you went to a top school, and don't have the "calling" to become a physician, then I'd go business.

 

[MJB]

Job prospects, coming out of undergrad, will depend on recruiting at your school. My undergrad had a top 5 BBA program, and all the bulge brackets and top consulting firms flocked to us. If you have respectable standing in your class, and was able to get a decent internship or two, you're golden for a bulge bracket or top consulting firm.

Job prospects, after working for several years, depends entirely on what you want to do and what you were able to learn during your work experience. Two of my best performing friends got PE offers, due to their rigorous IBD experience. A few other ones didn't land PE, and are just staying put in IBD. A few more left for MBA and who knows what they'll do after.

The thing in business is that you never just chill, like how you can do in medicine (to an extent). If you want to improve, you have to constantly learn new skills and have the work experience to back it up.

Life in IBD sucks hard. Some banks are better than others, but on average, you're looking at 90 hours a week. A bad week can be 120+. But, if you can land PE or HF, that number gets dropped down to 60-70. You simply do less pitching and more valuations. Face time also means less in PE.

Job stability differs by PE, IBD, HF, VC, trading. The jobs with the higher earning potentials are going to be less stable. A lot of HF guys just want to hit it big with one good fund, and pull 7-9 figures. They don't really care that their next fund might tank. PE and IBD are more stable in that banks don't fall often (though 2008 was an exception), and private equity shops are usually safer in their investments than HF. But, even if you do get fired, the worst case scenario is going corporate. Money isn't good, but it's safe and it's easy.

Overall, finance is one of those fields where you need the "go big or go home" attitude. You don't do it for the love of finance. You do it for the love of making it big. But, the flip side to that coin is this. People who burn out in finance or consulting can usually land a cushy corporate job that pays well, but not exorbitantly well. Principals at consulting firms can jump ship to corporate at $250k (40 hrs/wk). Banking VPs or principals can jump to the middle office and make around that. So it's not like you have to choose between starving or having no life. You just have to choose between living the MTV Cribs life or a regular upper middle class life.

Medicine is safe, but nowadays it's less lucrative. And I'm guessing it'll become progressively less lucrative. If you love medicine, then by all means, it's a great life where you don't need to worry about the state of the economy. If you went to a top school, and don't have the "calling" to become a physician, then I'd go business.

Difference being, in medicine, you're actually providing a service to society.

I know there are lucrative opportunities out there in other fields, but medicine is still one of the few I know of that you are rewarded with a 6 figure salary if you are able to get through school and residency and find a job. MOST business folks can't say the same..while MOST physicians can..

And, again...physicians at least provide a worthwhile service to society, for the most part.

 

[bronx43]

Difference being, in medicine, you're actually providing a service to society.

I know there are lucrative opportunities out there in other fields, but medicine is still one of the few I know of that you are rewarded with a 6 figure salary if you are able to get through school and residency and find a job. MOST business folks can't say the same..while MOST physicians can..

And, again...physicians at least provide a worthwhile service to society, for the most part.

Which is why if you like it, it's a great job. For those people who care about money more than their intrinsic contributions to society, finance is probably the better bet.

Just on a side note, what makes you think bankers don't provide a service to society? I'll admit that physicians provide a more readily apparent (and ultimately more important) service to society, but how exactly are banks and financial market participants useless in the functioning capitalist system you live in?

 

[MJB]

Which is why if you like it, it's a great job. For those people who care about money more than their intrinsic contributions to society, finance is probably the better bet.

Just on a side note, what makes you think bankers don't provide a service to society? I'll admit that physicians provide a more readily apparent (and ultimately more important) service to society, but how exactly are banks and financial market participants useless in the functioning capitalist system you live in?

Seems the big banks you're talking about haven't been functioning so well lately. Some folks in that industry do provide a great service..most seem to be in it for no other reason than money. Personally, I'm a big believer in hometown businesses where business IS personal. We are very likely from very different places...and I'm probably old fashioned.

What does amuse me is how often the whole "I should have/could have gone into business and been a millionaire" line gets thrown around on this board.



To answer the question about medicine, I'd have to say I'm up in the air right now. I'm pretty disillusioned and wondering why I left the job I had to do this (but have to remind myself how miserable I was in that job). I'm sure in the end it will be worth it, but right now being right in the middle of what I consider a complete waste of time...it's tough to see the light. I just can't wait to get through the seeming wasteland of the "clinical years". It's become all too apparent to me that you pay a few hundy thousand for a piece of paper...and really learn medicine when you get to residency. It's a racket.

I do know if I have to spend 60-80 hours a week working, I'd prefer to do something I at least remotely enjoy. Helping people in a tangible way will help with that. The corporate world, where nothing you do truly "matters" wasn't for me.

 

[igottaquestion]

Just on a side note, what makes you think bankers don't provide a service to society?

i don't know, maybe from reading the newspaper? the balls . . .

 

[bronx43]

What does amuse me is how often the whole "I should have/could have gone into business and been a millionaire" line gets thrown around on this board.

Heh, I'm not surprised at all that so many people feel this way. I learned when I first entered medical school just how many people don't care about medicine for the sake of practicing medicine. All it takes is one look at residency matching. Derm, plastics, radiology, opthalmology as the most competitive fields? Hmm, I wonder if it has more to do with the number of lives you can save in those fields, or the lifestyle and relatively high pay...

 

[bronx43]

i don't know, maybe from reading the newspaper? the balls . . .

So, you think modern capitalism can exist without banks or financial market investors? I'm not saying bankers go into banking for anything other than the almighty dollar, but it's naive to think that financial institutions are useless in modern society.

 

[Slack3r]

Difference being, in medicine, you're actually providing a service to society.

I know there are lucrative opportunities out there in other fields, but medicine is still one of the few I know of that you are rewarded with a 6 figure salary if you are able to get through school and residency and find a job. MOST business folks can't say the same..while MOST physicians can..

And, again...physicians at least provide a worthwhile service to society, for the most part.

It remains to be seen how long this will last...

 

[michaelrack]

So, you think modern capitalism can exist without banks or financial market investors? I'm not saying bankers go into banking for anything other than the almighty dollar, but it's naive to think that financial institutions are useless in modern society.

basic bonds and stocks are necessary. Most of the synthetic CDO's are downright harmful.

 

[Leukocyte]

All right, I know that there have been numerous threads dealing with this topic and even a recent one titled 'If you could do this again, would you?" but it has always irked me that such titles suggest whether one would be willing to go through the process of medical training twice. I know this is an issue of semantics but my question to all of you is the following: Now that you have completed medical school and are in the midst of(perhaps even finished with) residency would you still elect to pursue this path if you could go back in time knowing what would be in store for you down the road?

Thanks,
Darkskies

Absolutely NO. Getting into medicine was the worst decision of my life. A VERY EXPENSIVE decision that has the potential to destroyed the rest of my life. I am extremely depressed and unhappy. In theory I can go to a different profession, but IN REALITY, at this time, as an almost graduating PGY-3 with $200,000 in loans, no other job will be able to provide me with enough income to live and pay-off my loans. I am stuck. I hate medicine so much.

I am a scientist, not a care-provider. There is a BIG difference. Just because you like the science of the disease and human anatomy/pysiology, does not mean you will like caring for sick/angry/old/smelly/bleeding/psychotic people. Medicine is NOT a science. It is a health providing profession. I learnt that the hard way.

Everyone says, "Oh, after residency it will all be better"...BULL****. My attendings work harder than us, residents...at least we are protected under the "80 hour rule". If I work the hours my attending work, I would go insane. Anyways I have 5 months left in residency, and then I will try to get out of clinical medicine and do something else. I refuse to work in a "job" that I hate...HATE, especially after spending so much of my money, time, and sanity.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Absolutely NO. Getting into medicine was the worst decision of my life. A VERY EXPENSIVE decision that has the potential to destroyed the rest of my life. I am extremely depressed and unhappy. In theory I can go to a different profession, but IN REALITY, at this time, as an almost graduating PGY-3 with $200,000 in loans, no other job will be able to provide me with enough income to live and pay-off my loans. I am stuck. I hate medicine so much.

I am a scientist, not a care-provider. There is a BIG difference. Just because you like the science of the disease and human anatomy/pysiology, does not mean you will like caring for sick/angry/old/smelly/bleeding/psychotic people. Medicine is NOT a science. It is a health providing profession. I learnt that the hard way.

Everyone says, "Oh, after residency it will all be better"...BULL****. My attendings work harder than us, residents...at least we are protected under the "80 hour rule". If I work the hours my attending work, I would go insane. Anyways I have 5 months left in residency, and then I will try to get out of clinical medicine and do something else. I refuse to work in a "job" that I hate...HATE, especially after spending so much of my money, time, and sanity.

Hey Leuk, you sound like you would have been a good fit for path since you love the science but are disillusioned with the service aspect of direct patient care. Did you ever consider Pathology or even diagnostic radiology?

 

[maceo]

Heh, I'm not surprised at all that so many people feel this way. I learned when I first entered medical school just how many people don't care about medicine for the sake of practicing medicine. All it takes is one look at residency matching. Derm, plastics, radiology, opthalmology as the most competitive fields? Hmm, I wonder if it has more to do with the number of lives you can save in those fields, or the lifestyle and relatively high pay...

Just because you want to make a lot of money doesnt mean you dont care deeply for your patients. those are not mutually exclusive

 

[bronx43]

Just because you want to make a lot of money doesnt mean you dont care deeply for your patients. those are not mutually exclusive

Of course they're not mutually exclusive. It only suggests which takes precedence. Money and lifestyle with less chance of saving lives VS less money and worse lifestyle with a far greater chance of saving lives... Somehow, I don't think dermatologists or plastic surgeons went into their respective fields thinking less about how many lives they can affect by injecting silicone or botox into various parts of the body than how much money they can make (or how few hours they have to work).

 

[Eta Carinae]

Of course they're not mutually exclusive. It only suggests which takes precedence. Money and lifestyle with less chance of saving lives VS less money and worse lifestyle with a far greater chance of saving lives... Somehow, I don't think dermatologists or plastic surgeons went into their respective fields thinking less about how many lives they can affect by injecting silicone or botox into various parts of the body than how much money they can make (or how few hours they have to work).

Hey man,

respect the playa

hate the game.



I have no resentment WHATSOEVER towards my plastics and derm buddies. Even the purely cosmetic practitioners, LOL!

They worked hard and busted their butts at every level of their education, particularly med school. If after the 260s/270s, AOAs, summa cum laude etc from med school, they get to pick what/how they want to practise, who am I to begrudge them that choice?

And anyone who wants that has the option of working really hard and essentially becoming something of a recluse throughout med school in order to achieve it.

Props to them.

 

[bronx43]

Hey man,

respect the playa

hate the game.



I have no resentment WHATSOEVER towards my plastics and derm buddies. Even the purely cosmetic practitioners, LOL!

They worked hard and busted their butts at every level of their education, particularly med school. If after the 260s/270s, AOAs, summa cum laude etc from med school, they get to pick what/how they want to practise, who am I to begrudge them that choice?

And anyone who wants that has the option of working really hard and essentially becoming something of a recluse throughout med school in order to achieve it.

Props to them.

Oh absolutely. I'm all for a free market and working hard to achieve a goal. I was just pointing out that more medical students than people realize value money and lifestyle over the medical ideal.

 

[Slack3r]

Oh absolutely. I'm all for a free market and working hard to achieve a goal. I was just pointing out that more medical students than people realize value money and lifestyle over the medical ideal.

Who cares? As long as my doc is competent, I could give two ****s if all he cares about is the pay.

 

[DrArete]

.

 

[DrArete]

Absolutely NO. Getting into medicine was the worst decision of my life. A VERY EXPENSIVE decision that has the potential to destroyed the rest of my life. I am extremely depressed and unhappy. In theory I can go to a different profession, but IN REALITY, at this time, as an almost graduating PGY-3 with $200,000 in loans, no other job will be able to provide me with enough income to live and pay-off my loans. I am stuck. I hate medicine so much.

I am a scientist, not a care-provider. There is a BIG difference. Just because you like the science of the disease and human anatomy/pysiology, does not mean you will like caring for sick/angry/old/smelly/bleeding/psychotic people. Medicine is NOT a science. It is a health providing profession. I learnt that the hard way.

Everyone says, "Oh, after residency it will all be better"...BULL****. My attendings work harder than us, residents...at least we are protected under the "80 hour rule". If I work the hours my attending work, I would go insane. Anyways I have 5 months left in residency, and then I will try to get out of clinical medicine and do something else. I refuse to work in a "job" that I hate...HATE, especially after spending so much of my money, time, and sanity.

There are always options.

I remember several years ago an older friend of my brother decided he hated law, which was a problem. Dude had gone to a top law school, and with his undergrad debt, he had somehow put himself 250k+ in the hole.

Solution? He moved to South Korea, married a korean woman there, has a cute little daughter, and teaches english.

 

[bronx43]

You aren't even scratching the surface.

No amount of money makes that lifestyle worth it.

I have a good perspective on this.

When I was growing up in a wealthy environment in NYC, and going to boarding school, I saw the family lives that the big deal finance people had. They suck, and their children are total screwups.

Also, my friends who went into IB HATED HATED HATED it, and became grumpy, unhappy people. One even required in patient treatment for depression.

I was set on doing IB after college, until I realized that there was no way I would ever be willing to do even the 2 yr, jump to PE/VC or get an MBA thing.

I mean, at a certain point, something is just too awful.

Would you cut off a pinky for ten million dollars? Probably.

Would you cut off your balls for ten million dollars? I dont think so.

I don't know anything about kids of people in finance, but out of about 10 of my friends who went into IB, only one of them hated it to the point where he left for an easier job. All but three complain actively about the lifestyle, but they would still rather do finance than any less lucrative industry like consulting, accounting, marketing, etc. But, life on the buyside is much much better. The Hong Kong Carlyle guys I know aren't putting in more than 70 hours a week as associates. However, it does seem like you need to be a pathological workaholic to be able to withstand the onslaught that is finance (at least at the analyst/associate positions). But then again, same can be said for certain surgical subspecialties.

 

[medicinesux]

I mean, at a certain point, something is just too awful.

Would you cut off a pinky for ten million dollars? Probably.

Would you cut off your balls for ten million dollars? I dont think so.

Dr. Arete, you make a great point here and I love your analogy. However, please be aware that this is SDN where some gunners are willing to place ambition above everything else. And I mean everything. If you were to put that offer on the table, I bet you would see a lot of eunuchs hobbling around the "hallowed" halls of the hospital. Think about it. Premeds are literally salivating for the chance to get into medical school followed by a residency which quite effectively deletes a decade off one's life. Then the grand prize at the end for the vast majority is toiling away 60 hrs a week for decades on end till retirement. And all for what? A measly 150K? For 10 MILLION, I bet you the line to the slaughterhouse would be around the block and across the prairie.

 

[filter07]

Dr. Arete, you make a great point here and I love your analogy. However, please be aware that this is SDN where some gunners are willing to place ambition above everything else. And I mean everything.

Premeds are literally salivating for the chance to get into medical school followed by a residency which quite effectively deletes a decade off one's life.

So true.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1007

 

[anonymousername]

Dr. Arete, you make a great point here and I love your analogy. However, please be aware that this is SDN where some gunners are willing to place ambition above everything else. And I mean everything. If you were to put that offer on the table, I bet you would see a lot of eunuchs hobbling around the "hallowed" halls of the hospital. Think about it. Premeds are literally salivating for the chance to get into medical school followed by a residency which quite effectively deletes a decade off one's life. Then the grand prize at the end for the vast majority is toiling away 60 hrs a week for decades on end till retirement. And all for what? A measly 150K? For 10 MILLION, I bet you the line to the slaughterhouse would be around the block and across the prairie.

So true.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1007

from my experience (as an ex-premed), some know about how bad the life of a physician can be but the majority of them are unaware of how many hours they will inevitably end up working (and how little they will be compensated for it). The problem obviously stems from the assumed glamour of the field and the belief that physicians are intelligent & wealthy by trait, but I've never figured out why premeds don't realize this by the time they shadow. Any ideas?

 

[Slack3r]

from my experience (as an ex-premed), some know about how bad the life of a physician can be but the majority of them are unaware of how many hours they will inevitably end up working (and how little they will be compensated for it). The problem obviously stems from the assumed glamour of the field and the belief that physicians are intelligent & wealthy by trait, but I've never figured out why premeds don't realize this by the time they shadow. Any ideas?

They don't want to know? It's like telling a child there's no Santa, they still cling to the vestiges of hope. I maintain pre-meds are idiots.

 

[Leukocyte]

from my experience (as an ex-premed), some know about how bad the life of a physician can be but the majority of them are unaware of how many hours they will inevitably end up working (and how little they will be compensated for it). The problem obviously stems from the assumed glamour of the field and the belief that physicians are intelligent & wealthy by trait, but I've never figured out why premeds don't realize this by the time they shadow. Any ideas?

In my "old country", there is a proverb that says, "A hand on the fire is not like a hand outside it (the fire). Practically speaking, shadowing is meaningless. It is like seeing a gourmet dish that LOOKS very delicious, but will you like it? How would you know? You have not tasted it yet! Unfortunately, like medicine, by the time you figure out you hate it, it is already in your mouth with a sore after-taste...it is too late, and the "damage"is already done to your poor taste buds.

 

[Leukocyte]

So true.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1007

LOL!!! Good one.

 

[docbill]

Yeah, I'd do it again. Being a doctor is fun, and being a scientist is even better. I get to do both, and I get to do it at an amazing institution. I certainly can't think of any other normal profession that would be much better.

The only reason I am doing it is to be a clinician Scientist. If I had to do just clinics all my life in the USA, with your health care system, I would say NO. I would be say yes if I was in Canada and a clinician only.

 

[GMed]

From where I stand now, about to start intern year with 250,000 in debt. I would absolutely do medical school again and am looking forward to the future.
-the debt not that much of an issue as a previous poster said after 10 years in a nonprofit (residency and fellowship count) all remaining debt is forgiven, which comes out to roughly ~ 88,000 you have to pay back out of the 250,000 assuming you were a resident for 8 years and worked in a nonprofit making ~150,000 for 2. Plenty of options, don't worry about the debt.

I chose medicine because it has so many things that are appealing in one package.

Its extremely hard for me to think about a job that offers the following:
-A good paying job with a minimum of ~ 150,000 to 1,000,000+ (for those truly dedicated to making money).
-Great job security. (how many doctors you know that are out of work compared to lawyers, investment bankers, engineers, and other high paying jobs etc..)
-Great Prestige
-Great job variability (Can be a straight up bench researcher/clinical researcher/clinician/Consultant for pharmaceuticals, law, etc../Global health/Politics/Can work in a hospital setting or set up your own business with no one telling you what to do (except the government and HMOS of course))
-A very interesting job. (Granted that after seeing the 500th CHF patient, it can get a bit monotonous, but still prefer this over reading same legal briefs or looking down in someone's mouth every second)
-I think probably one of the most important is truly at the end of the day, no matter what happened, you can look back and say you helped someone. (unless you accidently killed them, that would pretty much suck)

There are jobs that pay more, there are jobs that have less hours, there are jobs where you can help people, but truly no job I can think of entails all of the things I said above.

Also for me I always thought if there was anything in this world I would want to know it would be the human body and how it works.

 

[bronx43]

I'm glad you found your calling, but I just want to make a few comments about the points you brought up.

Its extremely hard for me to think about a job that offers the following:
-A good paying job with a minimum of ~ 150,000 to 1,000,000+ (for those truly dedicated to making money).

Medicine will definitely always be a good paying job with a minimum of $150k, but when/if socialized medicine takes place, any dreams of $1 mil will fly out the window. In fact, even if the US never enters a try socialized or even single payor system, it's highly possible that reimbursement rates will be cut drastically - to the point where specialists will be capped at $250k. If you're content with that amount of money, then medicine might be a good profession.

-Great job security. (how many doctors you know that are out of work compared to lawyers, investment bankers, engineers, and other high paying jobs etc..)

You've got job security for the most part - unless you're a pathologist, in which case if you're probably out of luck if you are looking for a job. The downside to this is that you'll have to give up location. Need to live in a big city like LA, NYC, Boston? If so, then keep in mind that it might be extremely hard to find a job there that isn't going to low-ball like you're some ex-con.
Also, with high profile investment bankers, consultants, or corporate executives, not finding a job of any kind is not a problem. They might not be able to find a job with the same pay, but they won't be starving. If they are, then this country is probably already beyond repair.

-Great Prestige

This is slowly dissipating from the field of medicine. Compared with the golden days of the 80s or 90s, doctors are now treated with far less respect, and possibly even with some level of malcontent.
If you're going into medicine for the prestige, you should be ready for an eye-opener. (especially in big cities)

-Great job variability (Can be a straight up bench researcher/clinical researcher/clinician/Consultant for pharmaceuticals, law, etc../Global health/Politics/Can work in a hospital setting or set up your own business with no one telling you what to do (except the government and HMOS of course))

This is one aspect where I think medicine fails the most. A medical degree enables you to practice medicine - nothing else. Any ancillary skill you picked up along the way is just that - ancillary. Someone in other professions will be more apt than you are. As an MD, you're stuck in the field of healthcare, compared with someone in consulting, who can essentially enter any field (outside of law or medicine). If someone were to compile a list of all the opportunities coming out of MBA, JD, or management consulting, it would dwarf anything from a MD.

-A very interesting job. (Granted that after seeing the 500th CHF patient, it can get a bit monotonous, but still prefer this over reading same legal briefs or looking down in someone's mouth every second)
-I think probably one of the most important is truly at the end of the day, no matter what happened, you can look back and say you helped someone. (unless you accidently killed them, that would pretty much suck)

All in all, if you truly like the PRACTICING of medicine, then go to med school and practice to your heart's content. But, if you care more about money and/or aren't entirely dedicated to healthcare, then there are far better opportunities out there.
Also, DO NOT underestimate the debt. A $250k debt at 7% interest rate is a gigantic frickin' burden. From the moment you graduate, that's 1k a month in interest alone. Tack on residency, and you're looking at a hefty hefty sum by the time you're an attending. If you're making $200k a year, shelling out 3-4k a month for debt is a beeyotch. That's basically a second mortgage.
I'm not saying it'll cripple you for good, but it's definitely something to consider, since with that kind of monkey on your back, you'll be stuck to medicine whether you like it or not.

 

[michaelrack]

Its extremely hard for me to think about a job that offers the following:
-A good paying job with a minimum of ~ 150,000 to 1,000,000+ (for those truly dedicated to making money).
-Great job security. (how many doctors you know that are out of work compared to lawyers, investment bankers, engineers, and other high paying jobs etc..)
-Great Prestige
-Great job variability (Can be a straight up bench researcher/clinical researcher/clinician/Consultant for pharmaceuticals, law, etc../Global health/Politics/Can work in a hospital setting or set up your own business with no one telling you what to do (except the government and HMOS of course))
-A very interesting job. (Granted that after seeing the 500th CHF patient, it can get a bit monotonous, but still prefer this over reading same legal briefs or looking down in someone's mouth every second)
-I think probably one of the most important is truly at the end of the day, no matter what happened, you can look back and say you helped someone. (unless you accidently killed them, that would pretty much suck)
.

1. pay range (salary/income) is more like $120,000 to 500,000
2, job security is good- unless you get fired from residency or develop licensure problems
3. prestige is decreasing
4.
5. those docs who are making the most $ are doing a few things over and over- for example, successful sleep physicians are reading sleep studies and seeing one sleep apnea patient after another.
6. agree

 

[GMed]

I'm glad you found your calling, but I just want to make a few comments about the points you brought up.


Medicine will definitely always be a good paying job with a minimum of $150k, but when/if socialized medicine takes place, any dreams of $1 mil will fly out the window. In fact, even if the US never enters a try socialized or even single payor system, it's highly possible that reimbursement rates will be cut drastically - to the point where specialists will be capped at $250k. If you're content with that amount of money, then medicine might be a good profession.


You've got job security for the most part - unless you're a pathologist, in which case if you're probably out of luck if you are looking for a job. The downside to this is that you'll have to give up location. Need to live in a big city like LA, NYC, Boston? If so, then keep in mind that it might be extremely hard to find a job there that isn't going to low-ball like you're some ex-con.
Also, with high profile investment bankers, consultants, or corporate executives, not finding a job of any kind is not a problem. They might not be able to find a job with the same pay, but they won't be starving. If they are, then this country is probably already beyond repair.



This is slowly dissipating from the field of medicine. Compared with the golden days of the 80s or 90s, doctors are now treated with far less respect, and possibly even with some level of malcontent.
If you're going into medicine for the prestige, you should be ready for an eye-opener. (especially in big cities)


This is one aspect where I think medicine fails the most. A medical degree enables you to practice medicine - nothing else. Any ancillary skill you picked up along the way is just that - ancillary. Someone in other professions will be more apt than you are. As an MD, you're stuck in the field of healthcare, compared with someone in consulting, who can essentially enter any field (outside of law or medicine). If someone were to compile a list of all the opportunities coming out of MBA, JD, or management consulting, it would dwarf anything from a MD.




All in all, if you truly like the PRACTICING of medicine, then go to med school and practice to your heart's content. But, if you care more about money and/or aren't entirely dedicated to healthcare, then there are far better opportunities out there.
Also, DO NOT underestimate the debt. A $250k debt at 7% interest rate is a gigantic frickin' burden. From the moment you graduate, that's 1k a month in interest alone. Tack on residency, and you're looking at a hefty hefty sum by the time you're an attending. If you're making $200k a year, shelling out 3-4k a month for debt is a beeyotch. That's basically a second mortgage.
I'm not saying it'll cripple you for good, but it's definitely something to consider, since with that kind of monkey on your back, you'll be stuck to medicine whether you like it or not.

Well, I think 250,000 as a max for any specialty in medicine is lowballing it quite a bit, especially sicne noone actually knows how its going to play out. Saying thats the future is something you nor I am qualified to speak on with any confidence.

I know doctors now who make 400,000 doing general pediatrics in the suburbs, only taking private insurance and cash. It all depends on who your patient population is and how intune you are with running a business, because medicine is a business. Many people forget that.

While I do agree you with high profile investment bankers and consultants should not have a problem finding other jobs. Honestly though, how many of those are out there? How many high profile executives are there compared with business in general. Out of all the investment bankers and consultants, most are not high profile and would be having a hard time finding a job. Your argument with location is true, but this stands for any profession. The more desireable a location is, the more expensive its going to be and the less the pay is.

While prestige is less than back in the good old days, but comparatively so is everyone other profession out there. Politicians now are the least trusted people next to bankers. I'm not even going into lawyers now. Being a doctor is still a cut above anything else. Hell even >50% of the population hate the President of the United States.

Also in terms of the debt, I'm going to assume you haven't gone into your loan exit interview during 4th year yet. All will be explained there and honestly its not that big of a deal for the loan. You won't understand until you go to your exit interview. I felt the exact way you did until I learned about loan repayment options that were available. There was a post previously about IBR or something.

 

[michaelrack]

.....

 

[bronx43]

Well, I think 250,000 as a max for any specialty in medicine is lowballing it quite a bit, especially sicne noone actually knows how its going to play out. Saying thats the future is something you nor I am qualified to speak on with any confidence.

I know doctors now who make 400,000 doing general pediatrics in the suburbs, only taking private insurance and cash. It all depends on who your patient population is and how intune you are with running a business, because medicine is a business. Many people forget that.

While I do agree you with high profile investment bankers and consultants should not have a problem finding other jobs. Honestly though, how many of those are out there? How many high profile executives are there compared with business in general. Out of all the investment bankers and consultants, most are not high profile and would be having a hard time finding a job. Your argument with location is true, but this stands for any profession. The more desireable a location is, the more expensive its going to be and the less the pay is.

While prestige is less than back in the good old days, but comparatively so is everyone other profession out there. Politicians now are the least trusted people next to bankers. I'm not even going into lawyers now. Being a doctor is still a cut above anything else. Hell even >50% of the population hate the President of the United States.

Also in terms of the debt, I'm going to assume you haven't gone into your loan exit interview during 4th year yet. All will be explained there and honestly its not that big of a deal for the loan. You won't understand until you go to your exit interview. I felt the exact way you did until I learned about loan repayment options that were available. There was a post previously about IBR or something.

I never said socialized medicine is going to happen. I simply presented it as a possibility that is more likely than some doctors would like to believe. You simply have to roll the dice on that one.

And again, my response was only to those who went to top undergrads, who have a chance at making it to IB, top management consulting, PE, VC... etc. You're right in that there aren't many, which is exactly the reason you only have a shot from a prestigious school.

As far as prestige, there is a big difference between the lack of public trust and respect for bankers and the deteriorating prestige of the MD. The latter must deal, on a daily basis, with the very public who respects them less and less. Just doing a rotation in the ER made me see how much prestige has slipped from the medical profession. Bankers, on the other hand, never come into contact with people outside of finance... at least not professionally. If it wasn't for national media, they probably wouldn't even know they were being negatively viewed in the public eye.

Care to elaborate on these loan exit interviews? I don't know what kind of opportunities you're talking about. As far as I know, there's no way you can reduce your loans without giving up a good portion of your practicing career.

 

[DrArete]

I never said socialized medicine is going to happen. I simply presented it as a possibility that is more likely than some doctors would like to believe. You simply have to roll the dice on that one.

And again, my response was only to those who went to top undergrads, who have a chance at making it to IB, top management consulting, PE, VC... etc. You're right in that there aren't many, which is exactly the reason you only have a shot from a prestigious school.

As far as prestige, there is a big difference between the lack of public trust and respect for bankers and the deteriorating prestige of the MD. The latter must deal, on a daily basis, with the very public who respects them less and less. Just doing a rotation in the ER made me see how much prestige has slipped from the medical profession. Bankers, on the other hand, never come into contact with people outside of finance... at least not professionally. If it wasn't for national media, they probably wouldn't even know they were being negatively viewed in the public eye.

Care to elaborate on these loan exit interviews? I don't know what kind of opportunities you're talking about. As far as I know, there's no way you can reduce your loans without giving up a good portion of your practicing career.

Granted, you have more first hand knowledge than me.

But really, I think you're being excessively negative.

You need to get a little bit of perspective.

All jobs have a certain component of suck.

As long as you realize that and aren't surprised when *gasp* there is work, and it is not always pleasant, you really get to enjoy the parts that are satisfying that much more.

I would much rather deal with the occasional ingrate drug seeker in the ER, than be an excel monkey, or do stupid ass powerpoint projections to improve the quarterly results of a mining company, or fine tine the speculative investments of high net worth individuals.

It's not like practicing medicine is like digging ditches in a Soviet gulag, or becoming someone's bitch in an American max security prison.

99.99% of the worlds population would be thrilled to have the income, respect, and freedom that an American MD has.

 

[GMed]

I never said socialized medicine is going to happen. I simply presented it as a possibility that is more likely than some doctors would like to believe. You simply have to roll the dice on that one.

And again, my response was only to those who went to top undergrads, who have a chance at making it to IB, top management consulting, PE, VC... etc. You're right in that there aren't many, which is exactly the reason you only have a shot from a prestigious school.

As far as prestige, there is a big difference between the lack of public trust and respect for bankers and the deteriorating prestige of the MD. The latter must deal, on a daily basis, with the very public who respects them less and less. Just doing a rotation in the ER made me see how much prestige has slipped from the medical profession. Bankers, on the other hand, never come into contact with people outside of finance... at least not professionally. If it wasn't for national media, they probably wouldn't even know they were being negatively viewed in the public eye.

Care to elaborate on these loan exit interviews? I don't know what kind of opportunities you're talking about. As far as I know, there's no way you can reduce your loans without giving up a good portion of your practicing career.

Sure. In terms of the loans theres something called IRB. Anyways the thing is this: After 10 years of work at a non profit institution, your loans will be forgiven. This is ideal for physicians who want to specialize since all years as a resident and fellow count as nonprofit. The amount you have to pay per year would be your 15 percent times (your salary - 150% times the poverty line ~ 19500). Assuming your salary as a resident is 45000. It would be 0.15 * (45000- 20000) = 3750 per year you have to pay as a resident. So per month around 300 bucks. Of course there is an increase in resident per year, but all in all its only a few thousand and pretty negligible. So assuming you do interventional Cards, thats 8 years of training where you are paying 300 a month = 300 * 12 * 8 = 29000 dollars, we can round that up to 35000 assuming the resident increase in salary for 8 years of training. Next any nonprofit will do. Being a full time attending at a teaching hospital as I understand it will count towards non profit or working at a VA or any government/state hospital. So for the next 2 years assuming you are starting out with 150,000, using the same formula then 0.15 * (150,000 - 20,000) = 20,000 per year. So after 2 years of this you end up with 20000 + 20000 + 29000 = 69000 amount to pay out of 250,000 at 6.5% interest per year for 10 years ~ 320,000 so 320,000-69,000 = almost 200,000 + gets forgiven. Then afterwards with your experience under your belt, you can go onto a big paying job afterwards. Plus different states have other different options as well, for example if you work at certain hospitals in NYC. You end up getting 30,000 per year debt forgivenness on top of your salary at that hospital. Plus if you want to do primary care there are many programs that will forgive your debt if you do X amount of years. So completely doable.
This is just some of the options and there are plenty available out there.

This is ideal for those who want to go into high paying specialties, since most need at least 6 + years of training.

 

[Slack3r]

Granted, you have more first hand knowledge than me.

But really, I think you're being excessively negative.

You need to get a little bit of perspective.

All jobs have a certain component of suck.

As long as you realize that and aren't surprised when *gasp* there is work, and it is not always pleasant, you really get to enjoy the parts that are satisfying that much more.

I would much rather deal with the occasional ingrate drug seeker in the ER, than be an excel monkey, or do stupid ass powerpoint projections to improve the quarterly results of a mining company, or fine tine the speculative investments of high net worth individuals.

It's not like practicing medicine is like digging ditches in a Soviet gulag, or becoming someone's bitch in an American max security prison.

99.99% of the worlds population would be thrilled to have the income, respect, and freedom that an American MD has.

Maybe, but how many of them are actually capable?

 

[DrArete]

Maybe, but how many of them are actually capable?

Quite a few, if they had been given proper support and preparation from a young age.

The best surgeon I know is smart, but is no genius. He just has an incredible work ethic, and loves what he does enough to work extra call shifts, sometimes without pay.

Point is, the minimum genetic luck necessary to have the capacity to be an American MD is not that extraordinary.

Its a good gig, I think as long as you dont get stuck in a hostile work environment, and keep things in perspective, its a good life and is more likely than other professions to be rewarding.

/yeah, yeah, I know, come back and see what I think after I have spent 4 yrs and 100s of thousands and am working 80+ hrs per week for peanuts

 

[DarthNeurology]

I am stuck. I hate medicine so much.

I am a scientist, not a care-provider. There is a BIG difference. Just because you like the science of the disease and human anatomy/pysiology, does not mean you will like caring for sick/angry/old/smelly/bleeding/psychotic people. Medicine is NOT a science. It is a health providing profession. I learnt that the hard way.

Wow, some people are really jaded. But plenty of people are happy with FM and enjoy it, and given the competitiveness of the match FM may become more competitive in coming years.

Why do you say that you are a scientist? If you wanted to be a scientist then you should have gone PhD route, you could still get into science but you will need to do a post-doc. If you failed Step 2 CK, like you stated in a previous post, then why are you so gung-ho on the science part? (Just curious!)

IM is super intellectual and there is a ton of science, maybe you picked the wrong specialty?

 

[DarthNeurology]

The best surgeon I know is smart, but is no genius. He just has an incredible work ethic, and loves what he does enough to work extra call shifts, sometimes without pay.

The best surgeon I knew (everybody said that he could operate on them if needed) was *very* bookish and knew the latest in surgical technique/research and was caring. Most surgeons have the brains, but there are plenty of docs/residents who don't like science or don't have the brains and don't keep up on the reading . . . it is scary really.

 

[DrArete]

The best surgeon I knew (everybody said that he could operate on them if needed) was *very* bookish and knew the latest in surgical technique/research and was caring. Most surgeons have the brains, but there are plenty of docs/residents who don't like science or don't have the brains and don't keep up on the reading . . . it is scary really.

YUP. This guy is 60 (GI surgeon at biggest hospital in southern Spain) and has only recently started to study less, according to his family.

I am friends with his daughter and have shadowed him. The guy is a machine. He works call, 8am-8am, and then stays at the hospital doing rounds and such until 3pm, even though he doesn't have to.

He is a rare case, and I really hope I turn out like him. He makes less than what a nurse makes in USA, but he doesn't care. He really did work extra call shifts without pay earlier in his career, until his wife found out and raised hell.

There are downsides though. My friend says she was basically raised by her mother. She said it was typical for her father to shut himself inside his office for ten hours or more on a Sunday, studying, only coming out for food.

He really loves medicine though.

Reading SDN makes me feel, in general, crappy about medicine, and have self doubts about the enormous sacrifices I am going to make as a nearly 30 yr old non trad student to pursue this path.

However, when I talk to the surgeons I know in the real world, its ok. Sure, they are tired and overworked, but the ones who put in the time love it. The ones I have met who dont like it, are to me, the kind of people who would complain no matter what type of situation they were in.

 

[MJB]

I am friends with his daughter and have shadowed him. The guy is a machine. He works call, 8am-8am, and then stays at the hospital doing rounds and such until 3pm, even though he doesn't have to.

He is a rare case, and I really hope I turn out like him. He makes less than what a nurse makes in USA, but he doesn't care. He really did work extra call shifts without pay earlier in his career, until his wife found out and raised hell.

There are downsides though. My friend says she was basically raised by her mother. She said it was typical for her father to shut himself inside his office for ten hours or more on a Sunday, studying, only coming out for food.

That's incredibly sad. And I say that as a person that was 31 when he started Med School...and have a 6 week old son.

No career is worth not being a father.

 

[Slack3r]

Quite a few, if they had been given proper support and preparation from a young age.

The best surgeon I know is smart, but is no genius. He just has an incredible work ethic, and loves what he does enough to work extra call shifts, sometimes without pay.

Point is, the minimum genetic luck necessary to have the capacity to be an American MD is not that extraordinary.

Its a good gig, I think as long as you dont get stuck in a hostile work environment, and keep things in perspective, its a good life and is more likely than other professions to be rewarding.

/yeah, yeah, I know, come back and see what I think after I have spent 4 yrs and 100s of thousands and am working 80+ hrs per week for peanuts

I was merely remarking on the argument you seem to be making that because we don't dig ditches or live in poverty that we cannot be happy with the current state of medicine. I don't buy into the argument that you should feel guilty because someone in the world isn't in your shoes.

 

[bronx43]

I was merely remarking on the argument you seem to be making that because we don't dig ditches or live in poverty that we cannot be happy with the current state of medicine. I don't buy into the argument that you should feel guilty because someone in the world isn't in your shoes.

I don't think his argument was that you should feel guilty. He was just trying to convey that practicing medicine, at least to him, isn't a terrible thing - a position that would be coveted by most.

But, he's also right about how many people are capable of being an American doctor if given the environment. It doesn't take someone of incredible intelligence to pull a 3.5-7 in undergrad and a 30+ on the MCAT. Practicing medicine isn't like working at a quant hedge fund.

 

[MJB]

I don't think his argument was that you should feel guilty. He was just trying to convey that practicing medicine, at least to him, isn't a terrible thing - a position that would be coveted by most.

But, he's also right about how many people are capable of being an American doctor if given the environment. It doesn't take someone of incredible intelligence to pull a 3.5-7 in undergrad and a 30+ on the MCAT. Practicing medicine isn't like working at a quant hedge fund.

If you're saying that bankers and investors are some kind of brainiacs...


Wow. It actually sounds like you wish you'd chosen differently.

 

[bronx43]

If you're saying that bankers and investors are some kind of brainiacs...


Wow. It actually sounds like you wish you'd chosen differently.

I do wish I chose differently, especially since my undergrad had a top 5 BBA program for the taking. My 24 year old former roommate, who applied at a whim, is now pulling $220k in private equity.

But, I wouldn't say bankers are brilliant intellectually, even though the vast majority went to prestigious undergrads. Guys at quant hedge fund groups, however, are braniacs. They're not usually picked up at undergrad business schools. They're a combination of financial engineers, traders, or math/physics majors.

 

[tootsweet]

Difference being, in medicine, you're actually providing a service to society.

I know there are lucrative opportunities out there in other fields, but medicine is still one of the few I know of that you are rewarded with a 6 figure salary if you are able to get through school and residency and find a job. MOST business folks can't say the same..while MOST physicians can..

And, again...physicians at least provide a worthwhile service to society, for the most part.

I wholeheartedly agree. I love being in medicine and can't see myself doing anything else. Despite being drained and frustrated at times, I find value in my daily interactions with patients. For me, it's all about relativity..I know I'd work hard at whatever job I did, just my nature. Frustrations come with most jobs. Working as a waitress was way more stressful for me than handling the toughest COPDer dragging his oxygen tank around and smoking, drug addict, or the patient coming back with her 3rd unplanned pregnancy. Sure I can't help everyone and there are a ton of frustrating situations in medicine that drive me crazy but at the end of the day I do help some people and that reward is enough for me.

Money has never been my motivating factor though.

 

[Leukocyte]

Wow, some people are really jaded. But plenty of people are happy with FM and enjoy it, and given the competitiveness of the match FM may become more competitive in coming years.

FM, and primary care in general, is vital to a good health care system. We need more good, smart, and caring PCPs, but unfortunately, it is not for everyone. It takes a special person to be good PCP. Someone who loves spending time with patients, and getting involved in their medico-social affairs. A people's person. A person who enjoys being a general health care servant. Unfortunately, that person is not me. Not even three INTENSIVE years of primary care residency was able to pressure me into loving the health care service.

It is very simple, I just do not like clinical medicine. In other words, I do not enjoy being a servant of health care. I am not going to fight it, and I refuse to do a job that I hate. I am not ready to compromize, not after spending all this time and money. After finishing residency, I refuse to practice clinical medicine....for my own sake and sanity. I am very (extremely) sad and deppressed because I am now in clinical medicine. Every single day is a living hell for me. Why should I put myself through this. I deserve better. I worked hard all my life, and this is what I get? It is not fair to see my friends, who barely finished undergraduate college, happy and doing something they love everyday....while I, who sacrificed 1/3 of my life AND my credit score, am miserable in a job that I hate, and cannot even tolerate. I want to be happy like them. I want to love my job. After all that hard work, I think I deserve at least that. I could care less about "prestige" or how much my salary is. I just want to be happy...or, AT LEAST, not sad.

Why do you say that you are a scientist? If you wanted to be a scientist then you should have gone PhD route....

Like i said many times before I made a huge mistake going to medical school. I like the medical sciences, not the first-hand service of health care. I thought "Medicine" was the science of human beings, and by going to medical school, I would be a "human being scientist". I was very wrong. Medicine is a profession, not a science. A Neurologist is a provider of neurological health care services, not a "brain scientist". A PhD in Neuroscience, on the other hand, IS a scientist of the brain and the nervous system. There is a BIG difference. One is a profession, with semi-rigid protocols, pathways, and standards of care that one must abide to, IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE SUED. The other is a "playgound" for ideas and imagination to unlock mistries of the unknown, and push the frontiers of human knowlegde. Going back to school for a PhD is one of my current options. But my worry is the financies, and the huge debt I have.

If you failed Step 2 CK, like you stated in a previous post, then why are you so gung-ho on the science part? (Just curious!)

Lets see;

-I like the medical sciences. The USMLE Step 1 is a test of the medical sciences. I pass step 1 comfortably on my 1st attempt.

-On the other hand, I hate clinical medicine. The USMLE Step 2 CK is a test of CLINICAL knowledge. I failed my 1st attempt on step 2 CK.

You do the "math"...

IM is super intellectual and there is a ton of science, maybe you picked the wrong specialty?

My friend, I picked the wrong profession. It is sad, but true. MD = Health care servant / Provider of health care service in the health care industry. That is just not me. I will not do clinical medicine after residency. It might be too late to turn back now, but I will not do something I hate just for the money.

Look, medicine is a noble profession...but you have to ENJOY being a humble servant to the sick customer of health care. When I am 80 years old, on the medicine ward, surrounded by my own smelly feces, I want my doctor to WANT to be in the room with me, and serve me the best health care he can service. If you are up for that, then welcome to medicine, and may GOD bless you. If the idea of serving old smelly sick people repulse you, then I do not want you near my bed.

We NEED good doctors who ENJOY and WANT to serve "grade A" health care. This maybe just right for you. I, on the other hand, do not enjoy being a servant of health care, and will not (refuse) to work in an industry that I do not like. I will take my chances, and do something I love instead. At least I will not be that "doctor" who starts huffing and puffing each time the ER calls, or a when he gets called to do consults at 3 am on weekends.

Good luck.