Knowledge of Graduate School Costs/Loan debt

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Annakei

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Posted in the APAGS listserv....we have an ongoing discussion but curious to read your own thoughts about it.



APAG Members,
My name is Jon Weinand. I am a practicing clinician for about 15 years. Currently I am a member of div 12's (Society for Clinical Psychology) Education and Training Committee. The E & T is considering exploring the need for Graduate schools to be required to state the amount of loan debt that graduating members have incurred, as well as providing information requiring school's to provide median and mean average salaries in their Brochures and information packets.
As you folks know, your student debt is out of this world. In addition, this debt combined with stagnant salaries leads to a very difficult Debt/Salary ratio, which in turn makes it difficult to "get on" with the usual and customary social developmental life milestones such as buying a house, begin saving for retirement, or even beginning a family.
We are specifically looking at discussing the issue with CoA regarding having APA accreddited programs furnish this information Loud & Clear to students under consideration.
We would really like to hear your thoughts on this issue. I can be reached at [email protected]. However, I would like to see a listserv discussion regarding this issue. Thanks, JW


***********

Here is the latest and IMHO more passionate response:

Jon—


Thanks for brining up this very important issue. I am typically a lurker but
this topic gets to me so I had to sit down and write a bit. As a clinical PhD
student who has just finished his internship, this topic hits home. I got my
masters in counseling psych from a terminal masters program at a college
designed predominantly to prepare folks to be LPCs. They did a wonderful job
in providing students information and support. Licensure (at the masters
level) and the financial realities were often discussed, and most if not all of
the faculty were very aware of not only state guidelines and environments but
national ones as well. The advisor I met with on day one spoke openly about
the cost of obtaining the degree as well as the employment pros and cons. I
mention this only to provide an illustration of what my (APA accredited)
doctoral program was not like. The cost of the program was never discussed,
the poor funding provided to doc students was glossed over and paying for
school was left entirely to the student to figure out. I am not exaggerating
when I say that licensure was NEVER discussed, neither was employment after
grad school. No one ever mentioned the myriad of hoops and time delays
associated with actually being able to use your degree after graduation. No
one ever discussed the pros and cons of post docs. No one ever told me that
unless I took a post doc that my loans would come due while I was still earning
near the poverty level. No one ever told me that after working for a year at
about 1/3 of what my future colleagues making that I would have to produce over
$1000 to get licensed. When I stated that my interests were in forensic
assessment, no one told me that it would be at least a year after internship
(and in some states more) before I could practice what I had been trained to
do. No one told me that I would need to spend thousands of dollars to secure
an appropriate internship.



As frustrating as this is/was, it is nothing in comparison to the abysmal
stipends provided for interns. No one told me in the beginning that I could
make more working at a fast food restaurant than I would make as an intern or a
post doc. I’ve seen post docs paying less than 10K. I believe that the feudal
system of internship is a detriment to ECPs and the profession as a whole.
Would fellow licensed psychologists treat colleagues this way? Or maybe
internship/post doc supervisors believe that their supervision is worth $300-
500/hr. It just seems very difficult to paint the profession of psychology in
a very positive light, especially with other mental health and medical fields,
when the secretaries, psych-techs, rec therapists, CNAs and LPNs all learn that
they make 2-3 times what I do. Not to mention that this will be the case for a
few more years. Gosh, psychologists must be really valued. I believe that the
basic concept of internship is woefully outdated and in many cases
unnecessary. I went off to internship with several thousand hours of
experience under my belt, as do the majority of interns every year. These are
different times. This is not the “good old days” where students went off to
internship to learn the practical application of the field. By the looks of
the ever rising hours of experience reported on the internship application,
when most interns finish their internship they have acquired more hours of
experience that most ECPs had just a decade ago. I am personally very
disappointed in the licensed psychologists out there who have gone through this
process and look back and say “Well I don’t see that this in going to change
anytime soon.” I am disappointed in the licensed psychologists that supervise
interns for accepting this feudal system and not working tirelessly to improve
it. The indentured servitude of internship and that little extra year is just
plain disrespectful and wrong. My relatives are simply amazed that with 20+
years of education I can still barely afford to pay my rent. Currently I am
very pessimistic and although a lot of this sounds really negative, I still
have a passion for the work that I do…if only I could do it…and make a living.



With regards to APA, I would personally like to see APA do something,
anything. I used to work around a lot of social workers and it seemed like the
NASW was an active organization. I’m sure I don’t know all that goes on but I
am on several listservs and I still get some APA literature, and I don’t see
APA doing much of anything concrete to foster and steward this profession.
Having to make cutbacks for my internship year, I looked at keeping those
things that were beneficial to me, my APA membership was one of the first
things to go.



Regards,

********

Yet another one who DID NOT attend an APA accredited program. I feel for her.. :(


I knew the salary range with the license was in the $70-150K range. I didn't know all the caveats of licensure or that licensure requirements could be changed while I was in the program. I was told to read the Rules and Regs and I did but understanding how the Board might interpret them was definitely a missing piece. I in noand internships is required for licensure programs that can't provide what is required for licensure shouldn't be open. I didn't know that it would be so hard to find supervision either. In my rural area it has been MORE than challenging. I was promised supervision by the agency but that dried up when all but one doctoral level staff left. Licensure in my state does not allow the supervision to occur in private practice but it can be off site. In other words to get my post-doc year I pretty much have to continue to work for $29K while simultaneously making loan payments. If I can't license I shouldn't have to make payments. MDs in residency get loans deferred, why not psychologists in post-doc supervision? I am an APA member and I support APA for the most part but we have a double edged sword with regard to licensure. I went through a non-APA program and did not get an APA internship. In spite of outstanding grades and a dissertation that is being nominated for an Outstanding Dissertation Award, multiple workshops taught and years of experience, the lack of APA's sanction of my program slams the door in my face in many states where licensure is concerned. There aren't enough APA internships to go around yet states make having one a requirement for licensure. There needs to be a way for students who do not have APA accredited programs and/or internships to meet the licensure requirement by equivalence or additional work subsequent to the granting of the degree. I can't get an LMHC with a clinical psyc degree yet my masters in counseling is too old and I'm not allowed to take additional courses to make up all that the Board deems is missing from the masters. It leaves students like me who incurred a significant debt, worked extremely hard to maintain a 3.9 GPA, and are working successfully in the field, shut out of that one piece of paper that would say we are qualified to do what we have done and are doing as well as or better than some who have licenses now. It's terribly frustrating.

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Great idea for a thread. I totally agree with the posts you copied above. I left grad school with a little more than $100,000 in student loan debt. That included 2 years of loans from undergrad plus 5 years of grad school loans at an APA accredited PhD program in clinical psychology. That was in addition to retaining a practicum/assistantship each year that paid horribly and required 20 hours of work per week -- a lot of time to put in when you're a grad student. I also had to pick up additional contract work (about 10 hours per week) to make ends meet. I had to pay out-of-state tuition throughout my time in the program, which was never explained at the outset so I had not anticipated this before accepting the offer at the program. You never even think about all the debt you're going to incur related to school. For example, to retain a practicum, the choices of sites were great but far away from campus. One site was 90 miles one way -- and gas money adds up! And don't forget about debt on internship -- the costs of interviewing (you have to get yourself there which mean staying in hotels, eating, possibly flying to get there), and then where will you match? What's the cost of living there? It might involve a huge move (cost of a moving truck, deposits on everything, etc.). During internship, I had a 2-hour commute each day (again, the gas money & wear and tear on the car). My stipend was $18,000. The med school residents who had been in school less time that I had were making $40,000. I finally got out of school and had an incredibly difficult time finding a job (in a fairly large city, I might add) because I was not yet licensed. Needed that year of post-doc supervision and apparently it's pretty hard to find anyone willing to hire you and give up their time to do that, particularly when the agency can't be reimbursed for your services by insurance panels or Medicaid because you aren't y et licensed. So I got a job at the community mental health center for $38,000 (to increase to $40,000 after I got licensed) -- and 6 months later my loans entered repayment. That was good considering I got one job offer for $30,000 and another for $35,000. Ridiculous considering the (probably unrepresentative) average salary for psychologists in my city is $70,000. Anyway, then you have to immediately start applying for licensure, and costs vary by state. For me it was $100 to apply, $100 to take the state board exam, $550 for the EPPP, $500 for the cheapest possible EPPP study materials. Then when you get your license you have to immediately start worrying about paying for workshops to keep up your CEUs to maintain licensure.

Aside from the actual expenses incurred, you also have to consider the delays you encounter in order to get to the actual point in your life where you can get a decent job. Like a post referenced above, my program never discussed the EPPP or the licensure process – perhaps because those in academia don’t share the same end goals as those who want to do clinical work outside an academic setting. As a grad school applicant, I never really knew the questions I should be asking (about stipends, and tuition waivers, and typical amount of work hours per week) – and even when I thought to ask, I never really knew what it translated into when you’re actually the one trying to carry the load. I never knew when I nightmare it could be to go through the dissertation process and the internship application process, and the licensure process, and the job-hunting process when you (despite 10 years of school) have “little to offer” anyone who could employ you. Honestly, had I known all of this at the outset, I would have to think long and hard about whether I would want to do it again (although I fundamentally love psychology and the work it entails and don’t know what else I would enjoy more). My husband makes more with a BA and a desk job in business than I will probably ever make.

Whew, I really didn’t mean this to seem like a huge rant by a disgruntled former student! In fact, many others in my grad program and others I met on internship experienced the same feelings. I think that doing all you can to educate yourself ahead of time is a great idea so that you know what you’re getting into (which is why listservs like this are great). One small but hugely practical step would be the elimination of the postdoc year of experience from state licensure requirements. That would mean you could get licensed by the time you finished internship, thereby making yourself MUCH more marketable. However, if many of the comments at the following link are any indication, feelings are mixed so a sweeping change appears to be an unlikely prospect in the near future: http://www.appic.org/Surveys/2005/Q12Predoc.pdf This seems to suggest that many support retaining the postdoc year, or even increasing predoc years from 1 to 2. I wonder if that’s a result of crappy doctoral programs sending poorly prepared students on to internship training. Oh well, that’s another discussion…

Can’t wait to hear others' thoughts on this topic.
 
:mad:
psych101 said:
Great idea for a thread. I totally agree with the posts you copied above. I left grad school with a little more than $100,000 in student loan debt. That included 2 years of loans from undergrad plus 5 years of grad school loans at an APA accredited PhD program in clinical psychology. That was in addition to retaining a practicum/assistantship each year that paid horribly and required 20 hours of work per week -- a lot of time to put in when you're a grad student. I also had to pick up additional contract work (about 10 hours per week) to make ends meet. I had to pay out-of-state tuition throughout my time in the program, which was never explained at the outset so I had not anticipated this before accepting the offer at the program. You never even think about all the debt you're going to incur related to school. For example, to retain a practicum, the choices of sites were great but far away from campus. One site was 90 miles one way -- and gas money adds up! And don't forget about debt on internship -- the costs of interviewing (you have to get yourself there which mean staying in hotels, eating, possibly flying to get there), and then where will you match? What's the cost of living there? It might involve a huge move (cost of a moving truck, deposits on everything, etc.). During internship, I had a 2-hour commute each day (again, the gas money & wear and tear on the car). My stipend was $18,000. The med school residents who had been in school less time that I had were making $40,000. I finally got out of school and had an incredibly difficult time finding a job (in a fairly large city, I might add) because I was not yet licensed. Needed that year of post-doc supervision and apparently it's pretty hard to find anyone willing to hire you and give up their time to do that, particularly when the agency can't be reimbursed for your services by insurance panels or Medicaid because you aren't y et licensed. So I got a job at the community mental health center for $38,000 (to increase to $40,000 after I got licensed) -- and 6 months later my loans entered repayment. That was good considering I got one job offer for $30,000 and another for $35,000. Ridiculous considering the (probably unrepresentative) average salary for psychologists in my city is $70,000. Anyway, then you have to immediately start applying for licensure, and costs vary by state. For me it was $100 to apply, $100 to take the state board exam, $550 for the EPPP, $500 for the cheapest possible EPPP study materials. Then when you get your license you have to immediately start worrying about paying for workshops to keep up your CEUs to maintain licensure.

Aside from the actual expenses incurred, you also have to consider the delays you encounter in order to get to the actual point in your life where you can get a decent job. Like a post referenced above, my program never discussed the EPPP or the licensure process – perhaps because those in academia don’t share the same end goals as those who want to do clinical work outside an academic setting. As a grad school applicant, I never really knew the questions I should be asking (about stipends, and tuition waivers, and typical amount of work hours per week) – and even when I thought to ask, I never really knew what it translated into when you’re actually the one trying to carry the load. I never knew when I nightmare it could be to go through the dissertation process and the internship application process, and the licensure process, and the job-hunting process when you (despite 10 years of school) have “little to offer” anyone who could employ you. Honestly, had I known all of this at the outset, I would have to think long and hard about whether I would want to do it again (although I fundamentally love psychology and the work it entails and don’t know what else I would enjoy more). My husband makes more with a BA and a desk job in business than I will probably ever make.

Whew, I really didn’t mean this to seem like a huge rant by a disgruntled former student! In fact, many others in my grad program and others I met on internship experienced the same feelings. I think that doing all you can to educate yourself ahead of time is a great idea so that you know what you’re getting into (which is why listservs like this are great). One small but hugely practical step would be the elimination of the postdoc year of experience from state licensure requirements. That would mean you could get licensed by the time you finished internship, thereby making yourself MUCH more marketable. However, if many of the comments at the following link are any indication, feelings are mixed so a sweeping change appears to be an unlikely prospect in the near future: http://www.appic.org/Surveys/2005/Q12Predoc.pdf This seems to suggest that many support retaining the postdoc year, or even increasing predoc years from 1 to 2. I wonder if that’s a result of crappy doctoral programs sending poorly prepared students on to internship training. Oh well, that’s another discussion…

Can’t wait to hear others' thoughts on this topic.

Wow, that was a really informative post!!! This debate comes at a time when I amr eally debating whether or not I want to go through with applying for the PsyD program I have in mind. These are factors that are almost never discussed amongst graduate studnts because I think everyone expects things to get better but in fact it seems that they may not. I don't really know at this point what I will do because I have already began taking the pre req courses for the doctoral program so I would hate to quit. Ive been accepted to a MA program but deferred then for a semester to pursue these pre req courses.

Im not sure what I will do yet but a comment was made that the reimbursement rate rate for MA v PsyD/PHD folks was a $10-$15 difference!! :scared: :scared: I do have some more research to do and like you I have about 70k in debt so I am there with you on the student loans. I would be highly :mad: disappointed to come out of a doctoral program making anywhere in the 30s as that is where I am salary wise right now. Hey, I can say that! I only have a BA. LOL :laugh:
 
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More responses:

XXXXXX,
Thanks and I do appreciate and empathize with your thoughts (15 years
ago I came out with debt, had no idea about this licensing test, or that
I would need another year of supervision after internship (where I
received peanuts and had to buy my own health insurance) before I could
sit for another two hour oral examination for my licensure! That IS alot
of hoops!
We have discussed that extra year of indentured servitude, what to do
about all those practicum hours, increasing pay for internships etc.
I hope to put out some e-addresses so folks can get a better handle
on actual salaries out there. Although the numbers are somewhat
inflated, one can get a good idea of actual salary ranges for starting,
midterm, and final years of practice. However, folks need to be aware
that there is a stall in reimbursement and an increase in salary (even
with increases in cost of living) is not likly to be forthcoming.
APA is aware of this for both the academics and clinicians, that is
why they are providing so much info on clinical niches (and yours is a
hot one right now).
The graduate schools for whatever reason do not talk salary. That was
fine in the old days when money was plenty and student debt was low.
However it is a new game out there now.
Thanks,

*********

APA and APAGS are already lobbying for these things, and have been for some time. The problem is, that HMO's rule the universe of healthcare, and they have been fairly effective in shutting out psychologists who do not agree to their terms. The simple math of it all is that most people cannot pay out of pocket even for short term psychotherapy, and a therapist would be taking a risk to depend on their ability to establish a solid clientele of private pay clients. Another problem is the attitude of most of today's private practice psychologists. A great number of these individuals are simply not interested in the policitcal advocacy side of psychology, much to their own detriment. I've seen it first hand as I spent 2 years working with the APAGS advocacy coordinating team.


*************

XXXX,
Thanks for your thoughts. You are certainly correct that a 75K to
150K is very unlikely for most psychologists at this point. Clearly
anything over 80K is probably only found in the east and in someone who
is seeing a very well off clientele who pay their own way. Of course
some are lucky enough for that practice, but it is a limited number.
Here I speak not as a member of a APA divisional committee, but as a
APA member. Clearly there continues to be a need for APA to get up to
date and valid numbers out to undergrads regarding the triad of (yrs of
education/loan debt/salary). Remember, one loses salary during those 7.5
years of graduate school- consider the natl average salary of 24K and
multiply that by 7...168K in lost salary. In the old days that could be
made up with a nice salary and low student debt.
Many are lucky to be going to a Ph.D. school where RA's and TA's are
available to offset a large amount of tuition , however, there are many
fewer opportunities for such at the Psy.D. schools where the prices is
crazy. I'll send some data out on this in a bit.
Lastly Jason, be careful of blaming the victim here...Diana's
placement to go to a non-accredited position for grad and internship is
one many or making these days for a lot of reasons. That she may have
been uninformed or misinformed is not something where she should take
full responsibility. Indeed, I think responsibility here lies with the
schools, who should be very upfront regarding debt and salary. Remember
that the prof schools are for profit- why would they want to provide
numbers that may decrease their profit?
APA cannot do anything about non-accredited schools. But perhaps we
can do something to make sure that undergrads know what they are getting
into, and hopefully have a rule that forces schools to provide the
numbers to applying students.
Thanks,

*********

I'd like to add a couple of things to this interesting
discussion.

1. The erosion of psychologists income is related to
supply and demand. Psychologists are pinched both
ways: there is a constant or increasing supply of new
psychologists. Meanwhile demand may not be rising.
Certainly, I've seen first hand how social workers are
hired rather than psychologists as therapists. This
is due to their somewhat lower pay. It also is
influnced, arguably, by the expensive training
requirements for interns and postdocs. So
organizations do not want to hire unlicensed psychs
and then, arguably, they become used to not having
psychologists.

2. In addition, is it just my imagination or has the
APA done a less than wonderful job explaining what
psychologists do that is different from LCSWs or
masters level psychologists? For example, what was
the last time you saw advocacy about the need for
psychologists doing assessment and complex
differential diagnosis coming from the APA? Where are
the studies showing financial advantage of hiring a
psychologist? Or the studies showing that having a
psychologist improves outomes overall (if not as an
individual therapist than as a member of the team)?

Ultimately, we have to accept the fact that unless we
are perceived as having value, why should we be
valued? It can't be just because of the amount of
training we had and how expensive it was (mostly to us
personally). We have to make our value clear and we
need all the organizational help we can.

**********

You are right on both issues. Also, psychs are getting squeezed out
by the MD/therapist movement.
I am not sure if there has been any studies showing that
psychologists actually are more efficacious than all the other mental
health specialists out there. Outome studies are tricky things.
Certainly one would think with all the extra training (and lets be real,
we as a group have much higher GRE's and GPA's than the other fields
suggesting we are more intelligent-- at least in the area of psychology)
we would perform at a higher level.
However, currently Ph.D's are reimbursed between 5 and 10 dollars
more per session than the master level folks. Not much.

****

In addition to ### words, I think this is just a microcosm of global
economics. Take your computer for example. When you call for Tech support,
where does that call go? India, Phillipines, Bangladesh, who knows, right?
Because labor is cheaper there, and tax shelters are bigger. Same thing is
happening right here in psychology. HMO's have been subverting the needs for
psychologists by hiring social workers, psychometricians, and the like (not
to say these people aren't needed as well). To boot, there is some evidence
that suggests master's level clinicians do essentially as good of a job in
outcomes as a Ph.D. All the recent work by Wampold and authors of texts like
"the Heart and Soul of Change" state that client factors and the therapeutic
relationship are really what produce positive outcomes, not theoretical
orientation, level of expertise, or the like. This certainly does not
support the idea that Ph.D.'s have any superiority in the area of
psychotherapy.

Let's face it though, isn't the real difference between Ph.D. and Master's
level usually that Ph.D.'s have just more experience in conducting and
analyzing/critiquing research? Ph.D.'s perhaps do not seem much more
advanced in terms of therapeutic ability than a master's level practitioner,
although the APA likes that the term psychologist be protected for doctoral
level folks. Well, at a local psych association meeting 2 years ago, I asked
the question, what good is it to protect the name, if you can't protect the
field?

**********
 
I have been following this discussion with much interest, particularly with regard to perceptions of what students are told and not told by their programs when they enter, as well as ideas about what APA should be doing to help remedy these problems. All of these issues are complicated and explanations over a listserv are simply not sufficient to explain the many convolutions. I'll try to clarify a couple of points succinctly and provide some resources/information in an effort to help.

APA accreditation is important. See the APAGS Website for information about accreditation at: http://www.apa.org/apags/edtrain/studaccred.htmlIt In short, APA-accreditation ensures a basic level of standardization and quality in psychology graduate training that paves the way for licensure in many states and jobs in many agencies. If graduate programs are not accredited, it is either because they are new and evolving/working to meet accreditation standards, or they don't meet accreditation standards. The APA accreditation Guidelines and Principles are available for review at the APA Education Directorate's Webpage at: http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/

A discussion of why accreditation matters is available from the September 2004 issue of gradPSYCH, the APAGS Magazine at: http://gradpsych.apags.org/apr04/accreditation.cfm

Also see: http://www.apa.org/apags/edtrain/accred.html

Programs that are APA Accredited are asked to provide their students with information about where their graduates land their first jobs, success/placement rates for jobs and on internship, access to financial assistance, and many other things that provide "informed consent" of sorts to their students. APA cannot impose these guidelines and principles on programs that are not accredited. Therefore, students who choose to attend unaccredited programs risk that the program may not be able to provide the information, support and quality of education that APA believes is important for preparing future psychologists.

APA is a membership organization. That means that psychologists have come together to form a coalition of sorts to represent the collective voices of psychologists in a number of areas - legislatively, in the public sector, in education/training, to consumers, and in the marketplace, etc. As a membership organization, psychologists elect their peers to represent their voices in the governance structure of APA. These governance leaders then develop APA policies and procedures which APA staff implement and oversee.

APA lobbies the federal government for more support for psychology and psychologists, as well as for psychology students. For example, see The April 2004 issue of gradPSYCH for an article about APA's work on Capitol Hill to garner more funding for students: http://gradpsych.apags.org/apr04/support.cfm

In terms of debt, programs are responsible for setting their tuition rates. APA certainly encourages, through accreditation and other means, that programs provide as much assistance as possible to their students, but APA can not make programs charge a specific tuition. There are laws that prevent the restriction of our free market. But, we do seek ways through the means that are available to us at APA to educate students and advocate for students about student debt, loan repayment and financial matters. For example, APAGS has offered (and will continue to offer) a number of convention programs on financial topics, in addition to featuring articles in gradPSYCH about these matters, among many other things. For examples, see:

gradPSYCH April 2004 Garnering grant money http://gradpsych.apags.org/apr04/grantmoney.cfm
gradPSYCH April 2004 Conquering debt http://gradpsych.apags.org/apr04/debt.cfm
gradPSYCH April 2004 Taking control of your finances http://gradpsych.apags.org/apr04/finances.cfm
gradPSYCH January 2005 Getting what you're worth http://gradpsych.apags.org/jan05/worth.html
gradPSYCH September 2004 Preventing premature loan repayment http://gradpsych.apags.org/sep04/repayment.cfm

We try to fill some of the gaps in information that programs may not, but should be, providing to their students.

For an article about program accountability to students see: gradPSYCH January 2005 http://gradpsych.apags.org/jan05/accountability.html

Every issue of gradPSYCH features a classified section of jobs, internships and postdocs.

Moreover, we advertise and provide a number of graduate student scholarships for research and special training (see every issue of gradPSYCH, the APAGS Website and the APA Education Directorate Website).

In terms of licensure, APA-accredited programs have an obligation to help their students prepare for and understand licensure. Licensure is regulated at the state, not national, level. Therefore, licensure laws (for all professions -- not just psychology) may vary from state to state. In some states, to be eligible for licensure, the regulations stipulate that the candidate must have come from an APA-accredited internship and program because they believe that this also ensures some minimum level of quality. Some employment settings, such as Veteran's Administrations, will not consider any psychologist job application who was not trained at an APA-accredited internship or program, for the same reason.

Good programs, and good advisors and mentors, should be talking with their students about these issues.

cont'd
 
The best resource for licensure information and advocacy is the Association of State and Provincial Psychology Boards (ASPPB). Visit their Website at: www.asppb.org for information about each state's licensure requirements and what ASPPB is doing to support psychologist mobility and a less daunting licensure process for new psychologists. Similarly, the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology assists with credentials banking to help promote licensure mobility between states for psychologists, among many other activities. Their website is: http://www.nationalregister.org/


With regard to salary information, the APA Research Office conducts a number of salary surveys for our members' information and use, which are available on the APA Research Office's Website at: http://research.apa.org/ and which are published in some form periodically in gradPSYCH and the Monitor. Moreover, APAGS offers workshops on salary and job issues each year at the annual convention.

Having said that, many students who have not been to APA-accredited internships have done well with licensure and supervision. But, it is true that post-doc supervision is difficult to find and costly for some. For more information about APAGS' advocacy efforts in this area see: http://www.apa.org/apags/profdev/licensure.html and specifically: http://www.apa.org/apags/edtrain/comontrain.html

This information just scratches the surface. APA and APAGS has tried to "make up" for what some programs are clearly not providing their students, or augment that information. But, ultimately, it is up to the student to choose a program that is able to give him or her what is needed, and the program to provide quality training and facilitate entry into the profession. APA and APAGS will continue to work hard to try to provide information, advocate for legislative changes that support students and early career psychologists.

As a person with substantial debt from graduate school and personal frustrations associated with our field's complicated and long post-doc and licensure requirements, I am empathetic to the circumstances of graduate students and early career psychologists. Folks, including myself, are working hard here at APA to do all that is in our power to help change those circumstances. But multiple levels of intervention are needed from multiple parties-- at the personal level (e.g. getting students involved in legislative advocacy, to be responsible for the decisions/choices they make), local level (getting programs to take responsibility for informing and guiding their students towards a successful career and providing quality training and mentoring), at the state level (working with State Psychological Associations and state legislatures to better support psychology students and early career psychologists), at the national level (at APA -- to change APA's policy on the sequence of training -- e.g. recommending licensure upon the granting of the degree -- which would still need to be implemented legislatively with policy makers), and at the organizational level (with ASPPB, APPIC, NCSPP and other organizations who can change their policy, priorities and advocacy activities to make entry into the profession easier than it currently is.). In the end, there are marketplace issues that must be attended to as well -- for example, getting psychologists and students to think as businesspeople who must market their practices, think about the business and financial aspects of their work as being as important as the services provided to clients (many psychologists devalue their work and have trouble talking about and taking money from their clients.... an entirely different, but important, issue). And, the feminization of psychology has undoubtedly had an impact on psychologist salaries. With about 70% of APA members and 75% of APAGS members being women, and the fact that women in our country continue to be paid $.72 per $1.00 that their mail counterparts are paid for the same job, salaries in psychology are affected.

I hope that some of this information is helpful. For those of you in programs who do not provide you with information about marketplace trends, salary issues/negotiation, job seeking strategies, licensure and postdoc requirements, etc., ASK them to! It's important to remember that even though you are a student, you are also a consumer or customer. If you're not getting the service you expect as a paying "customer" of your psychology education, then I'd encourage you to say something to your faculty, department chair, dean, provost, or whomever at your intuition is in a position to do something about your needs. APA can help with providing guidelines and standards to programs, which we do, and for advocating legislatively, which we do, but APA can't do all of this alone.

Best wishes to all of you going through this difficult process --

Carol Williams-Nickelson, Psy.D.
Associate Executive Director,
American Psychological Association of Graduate Students (APAGS)
American Psychological Association
750 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20002-4242
(202) 336-6014 Phone
(202) 336-5694 Fax
[email protected]
[email protected]
http://www.apa.org/apags
 
Hopefully some good will come out of this ongoing discussion.
 
Hey,
Great topic idea! I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. I believe that it would be right for programs to publish detailed outcome data and make it publicly available. That said, I think it is naive for prospective/current grad students to believe that they will be handed all the info they need. Before I applied to grad school, I took the time to learn about the process and hoops one must get through to have a successful career. While in a class with a guest psychologist, the discussion turned to post-doc a licensure. I was surprised to find out I was the only one aware of these steps. The lack of post-doc knowledge nearly led one of my classmates to drop out of the program due to personal issues. I believe that every prospective student needs to educate themselves with the process and ask some of these important questions at the interview. This leads to a lot of poor personal outcomes for these psychologists.
As far as the debt and salary issue goes, It is one in which there will always be a battle. The increasing price of education and decreasing or stagnant salaries are true throughout nearly all fields nowadays. It is a fact of life now that more education isn't always better as with our parents generation. I think more people need to research careers in depth and stop blindly trusting higher ed whilst they rob you.
As far as training in psych goes, I feel that there are generall two groups. Those attending programs with tuition remission and stipends, that have 100% apa -accredited internship placement, and solid post-doc and career placement. These people don't have too many problems. The other group has to pay their own way, has trouble placing for internship/post-doc, and a hard time being placed in good jobs. These people are just getting hammered with one problem after another. Just compare CSPP to a well known PhD program. It is a completely different experience. I won't even go into non-accredited programs. My belief is that you should only go into psych if you can get into programs that allow you to be the former. God Knows, I wouldn't be here of that wasn't true for me.
 
My belief is that you should only go into psych if you can get into programs if you can be one of the former.

I fully agree. I also advise those of you just starting to apply for every possible stupid little scholarship out there - it does pay off and after a while you just produce your own generic scholarship application. For reasons I don't understand, institutions tend throw more money at applicants who already got many scholarships....
 
I like the suggestion of searching for tuition assistance and stipends. Just be careful -- I did ask questions as an applicant about financial assistance because that factored in to my decision about where to attend. And I received tuition assistance and stipends in my program and it still wasn't enough. For some crazy reason, I took some degree of comfort in knowing I was going to an APA-accredited PhD program in clinical psychology. Duh. That really means nothing in terms of the financial piece. There are no guidelines set up around money or tuition waivers or how many hours you can work, although perhaps there should be. The school can offer whatever they are willing and able to. So when you interview, don't just ask, "do you offer tuition waivers or stipends"? Really talk to current students -- ask how they are managing in real life, do they struggle to make ends meet, what it the cost of living, what is the actual tuition cost (look it up online), what is actual the work load like -- and keep in mind that (sadly) many students stretch the truth because of the idea (maybe it's cognitive dissonance in action) that you have to "convince" applicants to attend that program, so they present everything as being great. So ask more than one student, and ask for weaknesses of the program. And, even when you receive what you feel are decent answers to your questions about financial assistance, it is sometimes difficult until you're actually doing it to understand how far the money can or can't stretch and what's it's really like to work 20 hours during your 1st or 2nd year of grad school while trying to balance a courseload and see clients (unpaid work) in the university clinic. Keep all that in mind. And definitely apply for scholarships, that's a great idea.

Look on other listservs (e.g., Yahoo's NewPsychList for people who have completed psychology doctorates within the last 5 yrs -- do a search for "disgruntled") to see what others who have finished school and are trying to work have to say. It's frustrating to see how many people went through a doctoral program and end up disillusioned and frustrated because what they end up getting doesn't match the time, effort, and money you put into it. That is certainly not true for everyone. It's just very important to understand as best you can all the requirements that are on the road ahead of you. It's incredibly hard work. Make sure you're in it because you love it, not for the money you'll make in the end (because although the potential is there, it's not a guarantee). But also keep in mind that you need money to live! As soon as I was licensed, I left my crappy job in the almost-40k range and got a 60k job with a small private agency. But how much more than that will I actually end up making in the future? Who knows, unless I want to go in to independent private practice and take on all the worries and financial burdens that go along with that (cost of office space, cost of various types of insurance, cost of test materials, billing insurance if desired, working LOTS of hours per week because every client hour=money but you still have to do all the paperwork in addition to that, etc.) .

For me, the field of psychology 10 yrs ago when I decided as an undergrad that I wanted to go into grad school was COMPLETELY different than it is now. Back then, people WERE making a decent living, it seemed like a worthy and prestigious degree, etc. Throughout my training, I watched managed care completely unravel the type of care that is provided to patients and the type of actual work that many psychologists do. The career of a psychologist has changed. What will happen in 5 or 10 more years? I don't know. But consider the supply & demand issue -- there is an absolute proliferation of PsyD graduates from a growing number of programs every year (not all of them, and I am really not trying to start a debate on this -- but just please consider this as a potential factor that is powerful enough to change the field of psychology in the future). What will that mean for the type of jobs that are available for us? I suppose time will tell. If you are concerned and think the APA should turn its attention to these matters, see what others have posted & consider providing your own feedback at the following link: http://apaoutside.apa.org/accredsurvey/public/
 
Forgot to add this piece to my previous post -- I went to a grad program that, by all accounts and encounters I have known, has a great widespread reputation. Good fundamental training, produces students that are pretty well-rounded with relevant training and research experience. I matched to my top internship choice, as do most applicants from my program. Some match to their 2nd choice, and occasionally 3rd, but I can't remember hearing of anyone in a long while who just didn't match at all and had to go through the clearinghouse. And we all are required to attend APA-accredited internship programs. I would consider myself an "average" student as far as other students in my program -- not the brightest or hardest-working, but certainly not at the other end of the spectrum either. I entered my PhD program after receiving a master's in clinical psych at another institution. I thought I had a pretty good handle on what I was getting myself into and what the field was all about. Things can still surprise you, or at least they did me. I just don't want to seem like some outside-the-norm crazy person whose experience is way off the mark. I just want to provide info about a topic that many applicants and grad students don't find out about until they go through it themselves, which is too late in my opinion. Still looking forward to hearing about others' experiences in this area.
 
I'm increasingly convinced from reading these forums that the advantages of gaining a clinical Phd or PsyD over an MSW or MA are limited compared to the costs (time and money), assuming that one's primary goal is to provide psychotherapy. Certainly, attending a fully funded PhD program alleviates a large chunk of this burden, but I still don't fully understand what the benefits are over practicing as a master's level clinician, beyond the obvious aspects of better training and prestige. And I write this as someone currently planning on applying to clinical PhD programs this fall, for some largely unknowable reason.

I suppose what motivates me -- and this is the source of my question -- is the idea that as a clinical PhD, I will have the chance to embody the scientist/practitioner model, actively pursuing research while seeing a certain number of private clients as well. Is this completely naive? And if it is realistic, do research jobs at medical, academic, or research institutions provide a better return on the educational investment than pure practice, where one is forced to compete with the masses of practitioners working with less expensive degrees?

Honestly, I feel like I have no other choice than to pursue this line of work regardless of the money, because it's the one area that I can imagine myself finding sustained fulfillment (I've already spent several years slowly fading away in meaningless cubicle jobs, watching the clock hands resist movement...). But still, I'd like to map out the career trajectory as rationally as possible.

Anybody have a little insight on the reality of the scientist/practitioner dream?
 
<< I'm increasingly convinced from reading these forums that the advantages of gaining a clinical Phd or PsyD over an MSW or MA are limited compared to the costs (time and money), assuming that one's primary goal is to provide psychotherapy. >>

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am in a terminal Master's program that provides NO information about licensure, salaries, employment opportunities, advantages and disadvantages to the various degrees, etc. I was set to apply to the PsyD program at the same school when I did the math. The only thing I can say to people who are weighing these options is research, research, research. After I did the tuition math and watched the ads for psychologists, I came to the conclusion that, especially since I am older, the PsyD was for lottery winners and not me. I would love the education, but it is just not workable from a financial standpoint.

I am still trying to wrest practical info from my school with no success. They say to read the catalog. Thanks guys. There seems to be much more support for people in doctoral programs than for us fourth-class Masters people. NOBODY cares if we sink or swim. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm on my own and will simply have to keep my nose to the ground when it comes to information about how best to proceed.

And yeah, as a poster said, the NASW does a much better good job of supporting its students and practitioners. I considered the MSW, but it just doesn't provide the clinical education I wanted.
 
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Well, I agree that the doctorate just doesn't seem worth the investment if all you want to do is private practice psychotherapy. The value of the doctoral degree in clinical practice is the ability to do many different things in practice. If you do not want to take advantage of that, then you may want to reconsider the doctorate. Also, you may hit a ceiling with a masters degree. Despite being at an agency for years, you may not be able to attain a supervisory role. The last thing being that having worked at an agency with a psychiatrist, psychologist, and a social worker, I have heard all sides of the story. The psychologist felt that it would have been nice to practice earlier, however the social worker was sorry that he did not have a soctorate because he was being paid less for the same therapy services. The point he was making was that the income difference made it hard for him to live comfortably, whereas this wasn't the case for the psychologist. One started in the 30K range, the other in the 50-60K range. It might not be worth the effort for the extra education, but in this case it makes the difference between comfortable and somewhat struggling financially. Also, I must admit that the most I have ever personally heard of a social worker making is in the 60k range, and this is as an agency supervisor with 20 years experience. Hell, I have friends with bachelors degrees who started at that salary.
 
I agree with Sanman - the most I have ever seen a social worker make in an agency is in the 60k range and that was as a supervisor with almost 20 yrs experience. Not sure if it would be different for them in private practice because I'm not sure if there is a difference in rate of reimbursement for their services. The benefit of a MSW is the ability to be licensed and work independently (as compared to a master's in psychology who typically must be supervised by a doctoral-level psychologist for the duration of their practice). LPC can do this also, but it has been my experience that their training is more limited than MSW training. However, going into a MSW program will not provide the same training as grad school in psychology. You don't get the research piece, there is no training in assessment -- you are pretty much just trained to do therapy, so you have to be sure that's what you're interested in doing.

And I agree with Sanman that, in this field, the doctorate in psychology is the best degree to have as far as salary goes. Just know that the salary might not be the greatest. But you will also have a greater degree of flexibility with the types of jobs you can do.

As konrad asks, yes - I think that researchers can do somewhat better financially, but it depends on where you are. Med schools pay well in a lot of cases, as do academic institutions (depending on which ones). But many faculty members starting out make $45,000. I think you have to be able to generate grant funding, so if you do well at that then you're set.

As for RobinA's experiences, that really sucks -- but I have a feeling many students feel the same way. You're probably best off contacting your state licensure board and getting an application packet (if you haven't done so already) to see what is required of you, and ask others in your state who are actually working for advice. Just know that, once you're done, you're done! The bad experience will fade somewhat after you actually graduate and put that program behind you.
 
Actually, I'm not sure where this notion that LPCs must work under supervision comes from, I can find no support for it anywhere. Other than currently not being able to work for the DoD (which means VA) because of written insurance language, this myth doesn't seem to be true where I have looked. And there's legislation to change the DoD language, already passed by the House.

As far as MSW vs. LPC, I have a BSW and elected to go with the Psychology Masters because the clinical training was far more extensive. The MSW was too focused on policy and social service provision than I wanted to be, I wanted straight mental health without a lot of hee hawing about budgets, programs, etc. That's for someone other than me to worry about.
 
I think you're right about LPC supervision, from what I understand. Once they complete requirements for licensure (certain # of grad credit and supervised clinical hours -- 48 and 2000, respectively, at least in my state) then they can work independently and without ongoing supervision. It's usually the master's in clinical psychology that some states license (often called Psychological Associates) that require ongoing supervision from doctoral-level psychologists.
 
Interesting, I'm in PA, we don't have Psychological Associates here, that I know of, anyway. We have 60 hours classroom, a test, and 3600 supervised clinical hours for the LPC. The kicker is getting the appropriate supervision for the 3600. Something my school will not admit is a problem when I ask directly, but my own research into jobs and who does the supervising leads me to believe may be.
 
Wow, that's a lot of hours. I know how hard it is to get anyone to agree to supervise you. It's a catch-22. Can't find a decent job (or sometimes any job) until have the license, but you can't get the license until you actually work some hours and get supervision. Very irritating. I know of some community mental health centers in my state who have started making unlicensed job applicants sign a contract stating they will work there for 2 years after they become licensed (which means at least 4 yrs for some people) or else they are required to pay the agency back $200 per month for all the previous "wasted" supervision time the agency provided before they quit. Ridiculous. Feels like you never get finished jumping through hoops...
 
psych101 said:
I know of some community mental health centers in my state who have started making unlicensed job applicants sign a contract stating they will work there for 2 years after they become licensed (which means at least 4 yrs for some people) or else they are required to pay the agency back $200 per month for all the previous "wasted" supervision time the agency provided before they quit. Ridiculous. Feels like you never get finished jumping through hoops...

I can only hope that this is not the case in PA for two reasons. Number 1, my own interest - it's not like we make big bucks... Number 2, from my experience trying to get people services from community mental health, they are WAY understaffed and unable to meet demand. I can only hope they are less worried about "wasted" (Huh?) supervision and more interested in hiring adequate staff to meet the need out there.
 
I agree. For some reason, the agency I mentioned felt that it was somewhat of a "waste" of supervisors' time to provide supervision because those were hours that they were unable to see clients and actually bill for services. And the agency was WAY understaffed, and I agree it should have been a priority to get adequate staff on board to meet the need. It's sad when the focus has to be strictly on money, not on providing decent services. Guess that's why it can be so disillusioning when you get out into the real world -- agencies are businesses and clients are referred to as "billable units," and clinicians have to worry about how many units they bill per day week, and month. I know that's not why I entered the field. I started feeling like a salesman working on a sales quota or something! Yuck.
 
psych101 said:
I agree. For some reason, the agency I mentioned felt that it was somewhat of a "waste" of supervisors' time to provide supervision because those were hours that they were unable to see clients and actually bill for services. And the agency was WAY understaffed, and I agree it should have been a priority to get adequate staff on board to meet the need. It's sad when the focus has to be strictly on money, not on providing decent services. Guess that's why it can be so disillusioning when you get out into the real world -- agencies are businesses and clients are referred to as "billable units," and clinicians have to worry about how many units they bill per day week, and month. I know that's not why I entered the field. I started feeling like a salesman working on a sales quota or something! Yuck.

Sheesh, I thought I said good bye to all this billable crap when I left my last career at a law firm. I simply will not do this, even if it means I have to move to the boondocks at work for $20,000 a year.
 
Jon,
I definitely agree with everything you have said, with the exception that I would say that even 30-40K debt is alright depending on your interests. Also, school psychology nowadays is mostly testing and assessment.

Robin,
Unfortuntately there isn't any escaping billable hours, money makes the world go round. However, you may be able to minimize your exposure to these problems by possibly working at a VA hospital, working at a place that recieves funding to see no pay clients,some CMHC's are actually pretty good. The other option is working at a place that is well off enough not to worry about it.
 
Jon,

I appreciate your comments, which are well-taken. I hadn't been thinking of clinical PhD practice as qualitatively different than MA or MSW level practice; although I was aware of the differences in supervision requirements and opportunities, I had lumped the hourly (billable) work together.

I'm wondering if you could follow up on one of your examples of alternative doctoral work. What role does a doctoral level psychologist play in the provision of ABA? I've done tutoring, and I think it's a very valuable intervention, but most of the coordinating professionals I've encountered have much lower education levels.

Thanks for any info...
 
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