Lab and Farm Veterinarians

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NYC Chris

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I know that some research on animals is necessary for medical progress, but how do vets handle having to work on animals that are being experimented on. I mean how good can these animal's lives really be, and some experiments and out and out insane. How is it a Veterinarian can make an animal better in order for it to then be experimented on.

Same for farm animal vets, how is it you can make an animal better only to send it to slaughter. I am not judging I am just tyring to understand the inherit conflict in those two professions with veterinary practice overall.

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I believe that I can't change the whole industry and make everyone vegan. Instead I want to care for those animals so that they have the best life possible before they go to slaughter and are treated right during it.

Also, I think a vet's job in the food animal industry is to make sure that everything is safe for human consumption. It's part of your job and you can't go in there only thinking about the animals. Both humans and animals are directly or indirectly in your field of care.
 
Hi, Chris, and welcome to SDN!

First of all, what kind of experiments are you referring to when you say this?

some experiments and out and out insane

I agree that in the past, some of the things that humans (DVMs, MDs, and PhDs alike) have done to animals were completely reprehensible. If you are basing your current opinions of animal research off of PETA propaganda, though, a lot of those materials are outdated and aren't really relevant to the lab animal setting anymore. The regulatory guidelines that are in place now require review of all animal studies by several people at each institution to make sure the studies are beneficial to science and treat the animals humanely, and if any individuals at that institution are non-compliant, the entire institution can lose its funding. People tend to follow the rules when their research grants are at risk. Are there bad apples? Sure, but they are few and far between, and I can tell you from personal experience that the number of compassionate, intelligent people involved in lab animal research vastly outweighs the number of idiots.

The other thing to remember about the sensational PETA/MFA/ALF, etc. videos is that the people filming the videos are often the ones either mistreating the animals, or they are watching other people mistreat the animals but yet doing nothing to stop the abuse. What do you think this says about the videotaper's real regard for animal welfare?

It's also important to realize that the vast majority of animals (about 90%) used in research are "lower-level" animals, such as mice and zebra fish. I'm not saying that these species deserve a lower level of care, but think of how most people regard mice. They are generally considered pests in the "real world" and are left to die by being electrocuted, strangled, or crushed. In the lab animal setting, they spend most of their time in a cage with their buddies, eating all of the food they want, sleeping in a warm nest, maybe getting to make some babies along the way. When they're on study, they are quickly and humanely euthanized when they become sick (death is not an endpoint).

All things considered, no matter what's going on in the lab, the thing that helps me do the best at my job is to remember that the research benefits humans and animals (and if it didn't, it wouldn't be funded or approved in the first place), and I am an advocate for the animals. It is my job to make sure they are cared for and treated humanely and with respect.

Once you get into vet school, lots of institutions have externship programs for veterinary students that will let you see the real world of animal research, not just the demonized view that is publicized by radical animal rights organizations.
 
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You're going to have to wrap your mind around the fact that animals don't mean the same thing emotionally to everyone, and that's regardless of the type of animals they are: Some are companion pets, some are like-a-child pets, some are employees, and some are equipment or a food source. In my opinion, as long as they are not abused or neglected, and they are appropriately taken care of, I am OK accepting that they don't mean the same thing to all people. You can't get wrapped up in the owners' emotional connection (no matter how small or great) to the animals they own. I see no conflict between veterinary medicine and lab animal use or meat production, as long as the animals are treated appropriately (no abuse or neglect) while they are alive and their death is as painless as possible.
 
Hi, Chris, and welcome to SDN!

First of all, what kind of experiments are you referring to when you say this?



I agree that in the past, some of the things that humans (DVMs, MDs, and PhDs alike) have done to animals were completely reprehensible. If you are basing your current opinions of animal research off of PETA propaganda, though, a lot of those materials are outdated and aren't really relevant to the lab animal setting anymore. The regulatory guidelines that are in place now require review of all animal studies by several people at each institution to make sure the studies are beneficial to science and treat the animals humanely, and if any individuals at that institution are non-compliant, the entire institution can lose its funding. People tend to follow the rules when their research grants are at risk. Are there bad apples? Sure, but they are few and far between, and I can tell you from personal experience that the number of compassionate, intelligent people involved in lab animal research vastly outweighs the number of idiots.

The other thing to remember about the sensational PETA/MFA/ALF, etc. videos is that the people filming the videos are often the ones either mistreating the animals, or they are watching other people mistreat the animals but yet doing nothing to stop the abuse. What do you think this says about the videotaper's real regard for animal welfare?

It's also important to realize that the vast majority of animals (about 90%) used in research are "lower-level" animals, such as mice and zebra fish. I'm not saying that these species deserve a lower level of care, but think of how most people regard mice. They are generally considered pests in the "real world" and are left to die by being electrocuted, strangled, or crushed. In the lab animal setting, they spend most of their time in a cage with their buddies, eating all of the food they want, sleeping in a warm nest, maybe getting to make some babies along the way. When they're on study, they are quickly and humanely euthanized when they become sick (death is not an endpoint).

All things considered, no matter what's going on in the lab, the thing that helps me do the best at my job is to remember that the research benefits humans and animals (and if it didn't, it wouldn't be funded or approved in the first place), and I am an advocate for the animals. It is my job to make sure they are cared for and treated humanely and with respect.

Once you get into vet school, lots of institutions have externship programs for veterinary students that will let you see the real world of animal research, not just the demonized view that is publicized by radical animal rights organizations.

Thanks for posting this. I work in a lab that specializes in stroke research. We use pigs in that research and I personally take care of them, and I second all that you have mentioned about the humane care that research animals receive. I love my piggies and I treat them respect and care, but I also know that with their help, we may be able to really make a difference in peoples' lives.
 
I know that some research on animals is necessary for medical progress, but how do vets handle having to work on animals that are being experimented on. I mean how good can these animal's lives really be, and some experiments and out and out insane. How is it a Veterinarian can make an animal better in order for it to then be experimented on.

Same for farm animal vets, how is it you can make an animal better only to send it to slaughter. I am not judging I am just tyring to understand the inherit conflict in those two professions with veterinary practice overall.
I'm going to respond to this with a livetsock farmer/production animal pre-vet standpoint, as I have no experience with lab animals, though what I say here can certainly be applied for the most part to them.
Firstly, a farm animal vet has a pretty diverse job, though it will certainly depend on a variety of factors. There are many species that can be covered as farm animals/livestock/production animals. Food animals are the species that provide meat, milk, or eggs for human consumption. There are also fiber animals- those that produce wool, cashmere, etc. I would think that fur-bearing animals raised specifically for their pelts would also count. Sometimes food animal is used generically to describe any food, fiber, or fur animal. So, that means that cattle, sheep, goats, llamas, alpacas, other camelids, cervids (all deer species), horses, donkeys, mules, swine, rabbits, mink, poultry, and many more are covered as livestock.

Not all livestock are slaughtered as food animals, at least not typically. However, please bear in mind that all domesticated and many wild animals are used as food in many parts of the world. Yes, even dogs, cats, and horses. Rabbits too.

It is the farmer's best interest to keep his animals as healthy as they can be. Sick or stressed animals simply don't produce. There is absolutely no reason to allow something to get or remain ill.
Here's an example- in sheep, excessive stress due to any cause, including normal biological causes such as pregnancy, often results in a condition called "wool break". This is when the fibers become weak at a certain point all over the entire fleece. This means that the wool fibers break easily. When this occurs, the fleece's value is greatly reduced, since it cannot normally be spun into strong, durable yarn.

Here's another- when a ewe is not fed adequately during pregnancy, particularly during the first 90 days and the last 30 days, the placental growth is minimal and so the unborn lambs do not receive adequate nutrition during gestation. The placental will be basically as large at 90 days of gestation as it will be during the rest of the pregnancy. And the nutrition provided during the last 30 or so days is critical also, because about 70% of the lamb's growth takes place during this time. So what happens if the ewe is not getting enough? First, the lambs are born with very low weights. They are often weaker and may not be able to stand and search for the udder or suckle. They may die of hypothermia or starvation, or from certain infections that may have been prevented with adequate colostrum intake. The ewe herself may not be able to produce enough milk, resulting in low gains or even starvation for her offspring. Also, studies suggest that ewe lambs themselves may be poorer milkers if while in utero, they did not receive adequate nutrition during the second trimester.

Let's not forget deficiency diseases, such as white muscle disease for lambs, and acetonemia and hypocalcemia in the dam.

I see livestock farming as a partnership with the animals and with God. "Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds." I believe that there is a funamental difference between man and animal, and that we were given dominion over the earth, including the creatures which inhabit it. This is a very grave responsibility.

Therefore, we need to ensure that the animals we use are given the best possible care that we can, but we do not need to feel guilt about raising them and the humane harvest to nourish our bodies. It is a symbiosis. We give ourselves to them, providing them with shelter, protection from disease and predators, food, and anything else they need. In turn, they provide us with food, clothing, medicines, or whatever else they give.

So I don't see it as being hypocritical when I go out and treat an animal and then eat its brother at the dinner table. It's the fullfillment of a promise- I will care for you and you will care for me.

Do I feel sadness about the losses of livestock? Do I care about them? Am I emotionally invested in them? Yes! Yes to all three! I feel like I have a much deeper respect for animals than your average pet owner. My sheep are not my equals. But when I go out there- they are working as hard as I am. They are my pride and joy. There is no joy greater than being a part of a healthy birth, and no devastation like losing babies, or young stock or adults, to anything. I care about them in a much deeper, personal way than if they were "fur babies". I respect them. When one is sick, I am there for them. I stay outside no matter the weather, no matter how I feel, no matter how many nights I have been up previously with them. I have stayed in the unheated barn for days, in close to zero degrees F, with animals that weren't feeling well, while I was sick. I have been known to lie down next to them and cover them up with my blanket, to keep them warm, all night. And I can't tell you how many lambs and kids have stayed in the house with and gone to bed snuggled up to me, bevause they were orphaned or too weak or sick to stay out. I have cried when I lost them.

As a vet, you are not going to feel the "warm fuzzies" for every patient. But I sure hope that you do like animals in general, are fascinated by them, hopefully. I feel respect and appreciation, love in that way, for livestock, no matter what their end is to be. There will always be the individuals that you do love like a pet. Every single one of my sheep and goats have names. And do remember that every patient is destined to die. You and I are as well. It's not about the end, it's about how well they were treated, whether they have names or numbers. And that is where we farm vets come in. I can't imagine a more fulfilling job- being able to help both livestock and farmers, and in doing so, playing a part in nourishing and clothing the world.

Sorry about this being so long, but I hope this helps.
 
I love that there are bible verses in this thread :)

But as long as you are taking medicines, using certain body and hair products, and wearing, eating or using animal fibers you are endorsing lab animal research and farm animal practices. It's up to us humans to do our research and be responsible buyers and eaters. Lab animal vets as well as farm animal vets understand the importance of these fields and that's how they can do what they do. We could all benefit from doing a little more research and understand where our foods and clothes really come from :)


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He who humbles himself will be exalted.
 
And do remember that every patient is destined to die. You and I are as well. It's not about the end, it's about how well they were treated, whether they have names or numbers. And that is where we farm vets come in. I can't imagine a more fulfilling job- being able to help both livestock and farmers, and in doing so, playing a part in nourishing and clothing the world.

:thumbup::thumbup:
Really thumbs up to the whole post, just kinda long to quote

An important addition to this in my opinion is that like minded people need to seek out production medicine so that the current American system of livestock production becomes more humane and sustainable, not only as a benefit to the animals but also to benefit human health and the health of the environment. Your depiction of farm life is the ideal and unfortunately very, very far the reality of most farmed animals in this country.
 
But as long as you are taking medicines, using certain body and hair products, and wearing, eating or using animal fibers you are endorsing lab animal research and farm animal practices. It's up to us humans to do our research and be responsible buyers and eaters. Lab animal vets as well as farm animal vets understand the importance of these fields and that's how they can do what they do. We could all benefit from doing a little more research and understand where our foods and clothes really come from :)
:thumbup:
Very true. We don't realize exactly where all of our food and clothes come from.
 
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