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Lacking challenge, frustrated

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by Shredder, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Shredder

    Shredder User
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    k so I've gotten the hang of tests and now things are going too smoothly near the end of 1st year. Signed up for Netflix and now I've taken to watching movies and anime left and right, reading extracurricular books and gaming with friends. Heavy drinking is a given every weekend. Wasn't expecting this upon entering school. Skipping every class except mandatory ones and not doing any EC activities (I mean like EC ECs). I don't get much out of lectures, and the ppts alone are sufficient+faster. Granted I avg low 80s on tests which isn't spectacular, but who cares about yr 1+2 grades anyway. Been keeping up with First Aid and planning to do well on step 1 as well as the wards.

    HOWEVER I feel like this is an unproductive way of living and I sincerely wish there were either online med schools or 3 year accelerated options. Doesn't Duke do 1 yr basic sciences? Why aren't 3 yr schools in existence? And why aren't there online med schools like there are biz schools? Haven't posted in a while but I've raised some of these pts in the past on various parts of the forums. I've spoken with a few of my peers about this but I forgot there were you guys on SDN as well. Ppl who said med students are all brilliant and such and such, I knew that was bs back then and I've now validated it

    Obviously this tends to be targeted to ppl who feel similar; others sry if I piss you off but I have a habit of doing that with some ppl, you cant please em all. Looking forward to hearing from ppl about it
     
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  3. Mr. Freeze

    Mr. Freeze Not right. (in the head)
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    Probably because that's one less year they can butt**** you with "empathy". Plus they'd lose out on another year of dough. And it's always been 4 years. And "who are these people who think they can skip class anyway? We never had mp3s when I was in school"...:rolleyes:

    And if it was online, who'd go? Because you'd miss out on all the great experience you get with "early patient contact"
     
  4. nekrogg

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    i hope i get to feel this way after i begin...
     
  5. CenterMass

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    I'll humor you for the moment. First of all, contrary to what a lot of people say, you may find 2nd year a little more time-consuming with a lot more memorization time required. Second of all, plenty of people care about 1st and 2nd year grades. If you are really looking for a challenge, you might be smart enough that you won't be able to find it until you are a resident, but you might not be able to get as challenging a residency with low 80 averages your first two years. If you aren't completely full of crap, it sounds like you could be AOA if you put a little effort in; but if you are content to be average and get an average residency, by all means, take it easy, or train for next year's Ironman.
     
  6. Robizzle

    Robizzle 1K Member
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    Amen.
     
  7. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    My thoughts -- why not stop being such a workaholic and enjoy your anime/netflix/socializing? :) You're going to be busy enough later, so it's not like you'll be lacking challenges for the rest of your medical career. Second though -- if you really feel the need to work, start striving to ace your classes. It sounds like you can.
     
  8. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet
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    I was somewhat similar in my first year. Enjoy it. I mean you have a bit of gift - not your fault - you could study more and lock in a top 10 position, but if you're comfortable just sitting op 1/3 or 1/4 this way, it' your career, your reality make of it how you please. Next year you will literaly tripple to quadrupl the amount of material. It will be more of a challenge. Third year you will be busy with your wards and clinics and findind time to study is a pain in the ass. Enjoy what is left of your first year.

    They had three year medical school classes all over the country in the 70's. My father graduated from a three year course no worse for the wear. It is my understading that medical schools went back to 4 years because of a disturbing suicide trend and in today's application and interview (plus you need that research) world of medicine, you'll be glad for the extra time. Come to think of it. Sounds like you've got time for reseach. Go do some it will only help, I promise.
     
  9. Tristy

    Tristy BairesYarnCreation @ etsy
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    I never ever thought I would say this but, after almost loosing my mind and having a panick attack for my last test (I barely studied) and doing pretty decent in it, I decide to take a chill pill and work on some of my "hobbies" (which include wasting time playing the Sims, lame, I know :laugh: ). Yeah, it may be unproductive but you know what? we better enjoy this time because probably next year things will change (and for sure in 3rd year)!
     
  10. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    I need to buy the Sims. I used to play it all the time, so I understand the obsession. :)
     
  11. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    I need to buy the Sims. I used to play it all the time, so I understand the obsession. :)
     
  12. dilated

    dilated Fought Law; Law Won
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    I was in the same boat. I realized I wasn't doing anything useful with all that extra time anyway, so I started studying some more to get honors and picked up a research project. First year isn't that hard, but med students are such anxious, high strung people that they blow it up into a huge deal when it doesn't need to be. You'll see people wandering the halls the day before the exam freaking out. Ask them if they've ever failed (no). Have they been close to failing (no). So why in the world would they be so stressed out? Because they're neurotic.

    Some of us are blessed with indifference. Meet you in derm in 3 years. :p
     
  13. TheCybermen

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    amen.:thumbup:
     
  14. Tristy

    Tristy BairesYarnCreation @ etsy
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    It's nice to see that there's other people out there that like that game :D It's always been my favorite one but I stopped playing it for years up until like 1 month ago. It's addictive, but I guess you already know this ;)
     
  15. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    Do some legitimate EC's you bum, and not just organizing 2 lunches a semester.
     
  16. 45408

    45408 aw buddy
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    That's because people who are actually doing poorly probably keep it to themselves. Surprise, surprise, when you show up next year for M2, you might recognize some of your old classmates.....with the M1s. I did reasonably well first semester, and I *probably* will do the same this semester as well, but I did actually fail (yes, FAIL) an exam.
     
  17. Shredder

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    As for doing really well in classes, I think the ROI isn't very high. Better to ace step 1 and do well on wards. Nearly universal opinion is that yr 1+2 grades are of little importance unless you're very high in the class or very low. So the middle 80 or more percentiles don't matter much. As for residency I only wanna do path or rads, nothing else. And what's the sense in picking up ECs, again it's a ROI question. I might as well take up jumping jacks as a hobby, no? Research--questionable worth unless one is MD/PhD or going into academic medicine. I do enjoy gaming/anime/etc when I am in the moment, but sometimes I reflect on it and wonder how much unproductive time is going down the drain.

    As for 2nd year being harder, I guess I'll see. Ppl have always been telling me for all my yrs that things will get harder, you just wait. Hasn't ever really come to fruition though. High school was hardest for me bc my I went to an affluence public school in the burbs with lots of brilliant azn kids who went off to great colleges. In college I had similar frustrations if my courseload was light, but there was the option of loading up on hours and taking summer classes to go faster. Those options aren't present anymore, the courseload is predetermined. Of course it will also be tailored to the mean. The prob with getting stellar grades is that I think grades vs studying time follows a logarithmic curve. It would take me like twice as much studying to get 90s and I'm unwilling, as it doesn't seem to have practical value with payoff. In fact I've been progressively scaling back my studying to see how little I can get away with just to scrape by. It's no lack of ambition and I don't intend to scrape by in life, this is just different. gtg can elaborate if needed

    I'm not saying all med schools should be 3 yr but there should be some that are. Online med school is a viable idea I think. At some pt I will look into this but I feel too young and lacking connections to make anything happen.
     
  18. OncoCaP

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    So why didn't you go into Finance or start your own business? It seems like you are going to be bored to tears for the next several years learning stuff, doing H&Ps, etc. .... Are you sure that you will find Path or Rad to be exciting?

    Maybe you could start some kind of business or get involved in transactions that do have a great ROI. I bet you could find something with a better ROI than hanging out on SDN (but perhaps not as fun...).
     
  19. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    There is actually substantially more information to convey these days than there was when the initial 4 year med school program was set up. If not for the lengthy residency training already mandated, and the prohibitive educational loans people already incur, a better argument could be made to up it to 5.

    I agree with the prior poster who suggested that second year will likely be more time consuming for you. I also agree with the poster who suggested that if you are watching anime instead of working harder to get A's, you are probably not the poster child for reducing time in med school - you are already doing the minimum to "get by", and would likely continue to do so if they scaled it back further. That is your prerogative, but unless you are coasting (drinking and watching movies) and still getting straight Honors, you aren't making a convincing argument that there is too little info to fill the time. Clearly the challenge is there, you just haven't risen to meet it.

    I agree with you that first year grades likely don't have a huge impact on your career, but second year grades correlate pretty well with Step 1 success (since those are the highest yield courses), which does. So it wouldn't be a bad idea to plan to cancel Netflix and pick up the pace in August. Good luck.
     
  20. dilated

    dilated Fought Law; Law Won
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    Well, it's usually not hard to figure out which of your classmates are the ones who are doing well and which aren't - there are always a couple that are just flat out dumb and can never answer the simplest questions. And considering a max of like 5% of our class can fail, the odds are strong that most of those neurotic people aren't lying when they say they're not in the danger zone. If you do a reasonable amount of work there is no reason to be petrified of failing.

    Well, blowing off preclinical grades means you're probably ineligible for AOA, otherwise it's not a huge deal. If you're sure you want rads or path that's probably not critical though.
     
  21. DrBowtie

    DrBowtie Final Countdown
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    Take up card counting and start your own blackjack team :laugh:
     
  22. pagemmapants

    pagemmapants Unknown Member
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    Should'a come here Shredder; must less time a'wastin'. Then you could have gone for that MBA at Fuqua. ;)

    "Duke School of Medicine: We do Fuqua in our 'off-year'. "

    Other option, depending on your location: flipping condos.
     
  23. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    I think your analysis of the value of research is flawed. There are far more reasons to do research than for a PhD or to enter academic medicine.
     
  24. diosa428

    diosa428 SDN Angel
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    If you're bored, you can do my work too.
     
  25. 8o8o8o8

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    i felt that way during the 1st year & a half (we start clinics early). Enjoy your free time you have WAY less come clinics. Take an undergrad art class, play IM sports, go out, use your netflix, soak it up
     
  26. Ross434

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    Nice! I knew shredder was one of the smartest and most common sense people on this board 2 years ago.
     
  27. Tired Pigeon

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    I thought rads was a pretty competitive residency ... not true??
     
  28. lord_jeebus

    lord_jeebus 和魂洋才
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    I agree that you're underestimating the value of research. It is a great way to make connections early, especially since you've narrowed things down to two fields.
     
  29. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet
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    You have no clue . . . good luck.
     
  30. Tired

    Tired Fading away
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    Should make for an entertaining rads interview.
     
  31. Tony326

    Tony326 Member
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    I have a friend who just matched into a very competitive derm residency without AOA, though he did take a year to do research (from what I hear it, it was more like a vacation).

    I think this has been said to death: there is no set formula, just a few methods that have proven successful in the past.

    I'm off to go watch tv and play video games.
     
  32. Shredder

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    There's sense to this, but yeah if it were 3 years I would still do the minimum to get by. I don't see enough benefit to do more. It's different from high school when class rank was all the rage, and college when GPA mattered a lot. Docs come in to talk to us all the time and say the 3 things that matter for docs are affability, availability and ability in that order. Teachers always downplay the importance of grades and say other stuff matters more. Dunno if this is true or just to make ppl who get bad grades feel good. 2nd year grades correlate to step 1 but it's only a correlation. One can still botch tests and kick ass on the step. Generally ppl who do well in classes will do well on the step, no arguing that but it's only a generalization. By the same token ppl who rock the MCAT do well on the step but you don't see schools having much regard for that.

    If schools said that getting 90s would mean you can choose a 3 year accelerated option then I would rise to the challenge. As it stands there's no challenge and no payoff for doing well; I respond to incentives and they aren't there presently. Getting good grades in itself I don't find rewarding. You will always hear people say that good grades/test scores don't necessarily indicate ability as a doc and such and such, so if you say that to ppl who struggle for grades and test scores then you should be consistent about it with me.

    Ross you're still around huh, what are you up to. emma Duke's app was so daunting, I would've gotten rejected anyway as I was rejected from other similar schools. jdh71 thx for the thoughtful post, dad 3 yr school huh that's interesting. I still think it should be an option for those who want it. Oh yeah rads is competitive I know; 240 step+US allo grad should be sufficient to get into a low tier program. Path 220 step and US allo grad should be same. Does program quality matter much unless you want to do research or academic med?
     
  33. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Well, I don't think there's an inconsistency -- there's a difference between struggling for your low 80s and getting those low 80s because you are slacking and instead drinking and watching movies -- people applaud the attempts of the former and jeer the latter pretty consistently, as well they should. You don't get very penalized for coming up short, but you sometimes do for not even trying.

    As for incentives, the folks who honor everything, get AOA and do well on the step tend to have an edge in getting those "work less and get paid more" type specialties. That's a pretty compelling incentive for at least some of the top students. Doesn't necessarilly make them better doctors, but can certainly get them more easilly to their target position.
     
  34. Shredder

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    k what if I lie and say I struggle then, does it make a diff if the outcome is the same. It's true admins and peers resent me since I don't pretend to put forth much effort, but to hell with them. Of course if I wanted to I could put on a show but whats the pt. Honoring everything+AOA and such is for gunners who want neurosurg and plastic surg. Lifestyle specialties are the best anyway and dont require gunnerdom, just healthy doses of foresight and cynicism ahead of time. no? gtg its fri night and my classmates want to get smashed, thx for responses and if i show disagreements its sometimes bc of devils advocate so mind that
     
  35. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member
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    Good luck with radiology, srsly.
     
  36. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    ROFL. See Pinkertinkle's post above.

    I think Trump would advise you to "play the game" to win.
     
  37. Long Dong

    Long Dong My middle name is Duc.
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    You could always go to the gym and try to get your bench press as high as your IQ or u and try to get your bench press higher then your step 1.

    Or you could go to the myspace to hook up with some hotties or go to the myspace health forums and debate with the know it alls there.

    Actually I always thought law was interesting, there are online law schools or correspondence classes you can take. Then you can help out your fellow docs who are getting raped by the lawyers and decreasing reimbursements.

    I always wanted to be a chef myself, you could watch the food network and iron chef then invite classmates over to try new foods. I would've done this one myself during med school but I didn't find med school as easy as you do, so I guess the chef stuff well have to wait till after res.
     
  38. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    I'm guessing (since I've never met an online law grad), but I suspect that online law grads are going to be plaintiff's side lawyers, because it's hard to get into a firm with hourly billed clients (eg. doctors) with that credential --so you end up working contingency. So you probably would just join in on the raping.
     
  39. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet
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    Yes. But even better than that will be the sinking feeling he's about to get "pwned" after listening to the rest of the applicants, in the waiting area, quite nicely and politely, describe just exactly how large their CV dicks happen to be.
     
  40. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet
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    It all about options and numbers my friend, options and numbers. You only help yourself, or don't . . . you be in a much nicer position after commiting to 12-14 interviews and turning down 6 others, then clinging desperately to your 240 and allo-graduation at the 4-6 low-tier programs that were kind enough to interview you.

    As far as training. Hell you look at films in dark rooms anywhere I reckon. After four years . . .

    Funny short rads/ortho story: was following the ortho attending in clinic, the shoulder specialist, and we go to look at the MRI. Official read: supraspinatus ligament may or may not be torn. The attending turned to me, MS3 at the time, and said, "you could have told me the same thing! The radiologist is the lowest form of life in the hospital"

    Nice.
     
  41. Tired

    Tired Fading away
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    Bingo.

    The other problem will be if that 240 doesn't come through as planned, and he's sitting on a 225, good clinical and pre-clinical grades, and suddenly realizes that while rads may come through, he might need to apply to IM as well as a backup.

    The general moral of the story, in my mind, is this: If you have the time to improve your CV, and you're at all considering a competitive specialty, never count on "good enough" to get you in. Every class has the smart kids who thought they were "good enough" and ended up scrambling anyway.
     
  42. Mr. Freeze

    Mr. Freeze Not right. (in the head)
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    As I'm probably far on the other end of what you might call The Effort Spectrum only to arrive at the same destination, I'm not really sure what to tell you, other than you're wasting "the gift". Other than some training time for aforementioned :thumbup: triathlon :thumbup: , My EXTRA time is spent making sure: my wife doesn't leave me, my son knows who his daddy is, and honey-dos to keep my house in a general state of repair. So it's somewhat difficult to EMPATHIZE with someone who chooses to play video games and watch CARTOONS instead of making good grades.

    I just don't see the logic in being LAZY for 2 years, and then "planning" to smoke USMLE just to offset that. :confused: I can "plan" to do a lot of ****; that doesn't mean it's gonna happen...
     
  43. lilnoelle

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    I'm with you all the way. My "extra" time is spent with my kids and husband.
    I try to keep up with laundry and dishes too, but in generally, my house is always in disarray because I just don't have time to keep up with it.
    Some blocks I feel like I have enough time to get everything done, other blocks I feel way behind. I end up with the same result as you, though I generally only get my high pass after extra "attendance" points that are added to my test grade. I do empathize a little with the Op in that it would require a huge more amount of work to pull my high pass up to an honors to do it for the grade itself would not be worth the effort. It would be worth the effort if it means that I know the material better though, and may make things easier for Step I or when I'm in clinical rotations.
    Though unlike the Op, I feel better about my decision to attend med school than I have in quite a while. Now that I'm starting to understand the physiology involved, I'm really enjoying all that I'm learning.
     
  44. NonTradMed

    NonTradMed Perpetual Student
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    I guess I'm one of the rare birds that have to work really hard just to pass. I think anyone who can do well in med school and still have so much free time is truly gifted. Why not enjoy this time that you have? Or try for top grades? It seems somewhat arrogant to assume that you will 'ace' your boards, or to set your bar at a low totem because you figure you only want to do X and Y and that doesn't require top grades and/or research.

    What if you find out you wanted to do something really competitive that could have been helped had you do research and made AOA? Keep your options open. If I could honor my classes, I would. One thing I have found is that doing well never hurts you, but doing poorly can.
     
  45. lilnoelle

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    I don't think your experience is rare.
     
  46. Mr. Freeze

    Mr. Freeze Not right. (in the head)
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    I agree that sometimes the effort required to do better seems out of proportion, but I think the larger issue is why the OP doesn't feel it's warranted. But I just don't know that preclinical grades are as worthless as people make it sound. If they are, why do we have 'em? I mean, I'd like to believe I won't have to attone for how bad I'm doing, but if I live to see a residency interview, I'm pretty sure it'll come up.

    And when it does, I'll be able to communicate what I think are at least personally legitimate reasons for not being at the top of my class, and you can bet your ass they won't contain any combination of the words video games, heavy drinking, and cartoons...
     
  47. Long Dong

    Long Dong My middle name is Duc.
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    I'm with you on this one my brother. :thumbup:
    I have to put in that extra effort just to do as well as the average guy.
     
  48. Shredder

    Shredder User
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    already maxing 250+ on bench and iq good enough for mensa so no probs there. rads kicks orthos ass, ortho is for ppl who actually care about being macho docs. rads comparable pay and far superior residency and lifestyle. 220-225 is good enough for path, come on IM is for ppl who barely pass. interviewers arent gonna ask why ppl got 80s on tests. 70s and a few fails i can understand but any interviewer who asks about 80s with smashing step1 score is a punk and screw that program. who the hell looks at individual test grades anyway--ive been to interest groups and grades are hardly brought up. i think most of you are just trained to get good grades so you continue to do it out of habit. dunno about you guys but im confident that even with $hitty grades i can rock the step so their value is an indicator of that is dubious. getting good grades by memorizing endless minutiaie, come on is that really a worthwhile use of time in the long run

    gimme a break, you think i would cite vid games, drinking etc as reason for substellar grades--ive come this far and have enough sense not to be a dummy. countless other reasons can be BSd whether they are true or not. as for AOA and "really competitive" specialties thats for gunners and not so relevant to the thread. gunners dont end up better off than shrewd slackers. btw doing well can hurt one in terms of opportunity cost. jdh no interviews are acts of kindness, they are all 2 sided transactions. anyway as always thx for responses sry if im abrasive.
     
  49. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I think you have to realize that most people will change their minds about what they want to do once they see more. You might decide you love something you do in rotations. You might learn in rotations that you hate certain roles. Truth of the matter is that as a first year, you really don't know. And you don't need to --your job is just to keep as many doors open as you can. But you are for some reason making it harder to get certain options you have likely not had any exposure to yet. Grades certainly don't matter as much as some other things. (I've had mentors describe their lack of import as the "dirty little secret" of med school). But there is a correlation of med school grades to Step 1 (the second year grade correlation is far greater than that of the MCAT, because that covers the highest yield material), and, regardless of how it is weighted, residencies do see your grades and class rank. At a lot of places regularly getting low 80s puts you just shy of the class average which may even mean different wording in your dean's letter. That's well and fine if it's the best you can do. But pretty foolhardy if you are not putting in the effort to do better.
     
  50. MyNameIsOtto

    5+ Year Member

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    I don't have a crapload of freetime first year, but I pretty much am with Shredder on this. I know I'm going into path or rads and nothing else. I realize grades are less important than the networking you do 3rd and 4th year.
     
  51. indo

    indo Feed me a stray cat
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    When school gets too easy for me I just put on an eye patch.
     

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