Lame starting salary

[bobbyseal]

For ha-ha's I figured out what an orthopod salary may be starting out in the military immediately after residency (full deferment in a civilian hospital).

Let's say this orthopod lives in lovely Washington, DC....

She'll be coming in as an O3. Residency won't be long enough to have her make O4 yet. In addition, she won't be board certified coming out of residency. One is required to complete a series of cases before being certified. Often times, it can take a couple years to get board certified.

So let's have fun...

BAH= $1641.00/month for a single gal with no dependents.

BAS= $183.99/month

Total tax free pay per year = $21,899.88. Let's multiply it by 133% to see what it would be like in civilian dollars to account for a high 33% tax rate. You would get $29,126.84. This is probably an over exageration, but bear with me.

Now, base pay for an O3 with 0 years of service is = $3553.80. Add on VSP and that's $416.67 as she will have under 6 years of creditable service. So for the year that's a total of $47,645.64. Add to that the ASP bonus of $15,000 and you get $62,645.64. We'll add the BAH and BAS adjusted for taxes and that's = $91,772.48. Now, let's add that big specialty pay which would be $36,000.

So for all of you future orthopods coming out of a deferment into the military you're going to make $127,772.48.

Oh yeah, and in your last year of commitment you get to lose out on your specialty pay. So we ought to subtract $9,000 from that salary to account over 4 years the loss of $36,000. So, you're really making $118,772.48 that first year.

I don't think it needs to be said how much an orthopod can make on the outside.

Ugh...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[llort]

i dont know if you include tuition in your calculations. If said person went to private med school, they would borrow around 60k a year. over 4 years thats 240k + interest= 280k. so, you could add another 70k per year to that salary, right?

 

[texdrake]

Me thinks you should have checked that out first.....

That's why it says in my FAQ that going into anything other than primary care or ER would most likely mean a significant decrease in income over the lifetime of the committment.

 

[winston_79]

For ha-ha's I figured out what an orthopod salary may be starting out in the military immediately after residency (full deferment in a civilian hospital).

Let's say this orthopod lives in lovely Washington, DC....

She'll be coming in as an O3. Residency won't be long enough to have her make O4 yet. In addition, she won't be board certified coming out of residency. One is required to complete a series of cases before being certified. Often times, it can take a couple years to get board certified.

So let's have fun...

BAH= $1641.00/month for a single gal with no dependents.

BAS= $183.99/month

Total tax free pay per year = $21,899.88. Let's multiply it by 133% to see what it would be like in civilian dollars to account for a high 33% tax rate. You would get $29,126.84. This is probably an over exageration, but bear with me.

Now, base pay for an O3 with 0 years of service is = $3553.80. Add on VSP and that's $416.67 as she will have under 6 years of creditable service. So for the year that's a total of $47,645.64. Add to that the ASP bonus of $15,000 and you get $62,645.64. We'll add the BAH and BAS adjusted for taxes and that's = $91,772.48. Now, let's add that big specialty pay which would be $36,000.

So for all of you future orthopods coming out of a deferment into the military you're going to make $127,772.48.

Oh yeah, and in your last year of commitment you get to lose out on your specialty pay. So we ought to subtract $9,000 from that salary to account over 4 years the loss of $36,000. So, you're really making $118,772.48 that first year.

I don't think it needs to be said how much an orthopod can make on the outside.

Ugh...

I was under the impression that specialty pay doesn't kick in until you are beyond the time you had to commit back to the service...can anyone confirm this? Is it ASP instead? I was pretty sure one of those "pays" worked in such a fashion. Either way it's pretty evident not to serve as a physician in the military if your goal is strictly money-oriented.

 

[Croooz]

I don't understand why these calculations are constantly being brought up? If anyone even for a second joins the military for the money they deserve what they get. No one, absolutely no one does a federal or government job for the money...why should joining the military be any different?

 

[bobbyseal]

Alright... Just everyone relax.

I was bored and was just looking through the pay tables. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Rudy]

money. Everyone on this board acts like they are supposedly joining the military for the "right" reasons (love of country, desire to be a big bad military doc, etc.), but the reality is that there are still a lot of folks out there whose primary motive is fear of debt. A statistic that backs this up is the dramatic increase in the proportion of DO students among those accepting the HPSP scholarship. According to an article in US Medicine, about half of all HPSP students are DOs. This is interesting since allopathic students outnumber osteopathic students by about 10 to 1 nationwide. So, there are two possible explanations for the disproportionate number of DO students in HPSP:

1) DO students are inherently more patriotic and pro-military than MD students
2) DO schools are all private with high tuition and thus debt is more of an issue for DO students vs many MD students that go to state schools with lower tuition.

My whole point is that I think that money still plays too large a role in the decision of whether to join the military for medical education. With today's low loan interest rates and the good physician job market, I think it bears repeating that those who are joining primarily (or secondarily) for the money are making a big financial mistake and may regret their decision later on.

Unless you like to play GI Joe for fun, and look forward to deploying to the desert 3-6 months a year in this time of war, don't sign up.

 

[Rudy]

in my prior post.

http://www.usmedicine.com/column.cfm?columnID=147&issueID=56

It is by a retired Navy Admiral Dr. Koenig who has been an active voice in military medicine issues. It is an interesting article as it discusses the dramatic decrease in USUHS applications (about 50% over the past 5 years) as well as the rapid increase in the proportion of DO students among the HPSP applicants. Apparently the decline in the academic credentials of the HPSP/USUHS candidates is a "matter of concern" for some of the higher-ups in military medicine.

Any thoughts?

 

[AubreyMaturin]

For what it is worth:
I am joining the military, in part, becasuse I do not want to be driven by the almighty $$$. Yet I do (as I am sure do all) want to have enough financial security to allow myself and my family equal opportunity. If I stay civilian I will certainly be able to pay off my substantial loans, but I will be worried about money at every turn until after residency, and I will choose my specialty training according to how much money I can make, so that I can pay off the loans.
In the military, my finances are secured, and I can worry about practicing medicine (and everything else my job entails).

I don't think people are concerned about money because they are in it for the money, but because they need reassureance that they won't get financially screwed.

Maybe DOs are more likely to take HPSP because their schools are expensive and there prospects at the big money residencies are not as bright. For the most part, a GP after 4 years of school at 40,000/year, would make LESS in the private sector. One instance where the military actually pays more, or at least about the same.

 

[Croooz]

money. Everyone on this board acts like they are supposedly joining the military for the "right" reasons (love of country, desire to be a big bad military doc, etc.), but the reality is that there are still a lot of folks out there whose primary motive is fear of debt. A statistic that backs this up is the dramatic increase in the proportion of DO students among those accepting the HPSP scholarship. According to an article in US Medicine, about half of all HPSP students are DOs. This is interesting since allopathic students outnumber osteopathic students by about 10 to 1 nationwide. So, there are two possible explanations for the disproportionate number of DO students in HPSP:

1) DO students are inherently more patriotic and pro-military than MD students
2) DO schools are all private with high tuition and thus debt is more of an issue for DO students vs many MD students that go to state schools with lower tuition.

My whole point is that I think that money still plays too large a role in the decision of whether to join the military for medical education. With today's low loan interest rates and the good physician job market, I think it bears repeating that those who are joining primarily (or secondarily) for the money are making a big financial mistake and may regret their decision later on.

Unless you like to play GI Joe for fun, and look forward to deploying to the desert 3-6 months a year in this time of war, don't sign up.

I made the same argument a little while back...money is by far the main reason students are taking the HPSP. They ignore what's presented here and believe what they want because after all....they aren't "that" broke during medical school and will have no debt...

Not all DO schools are private. I did compare a DO school I was thinking about and it was just as expensive as going to Harvard so I know where you're getting at with this.

As for DO joining the military in record numbers the article addresses quite well. With the very high cost of becoming a DO continuing to escalate and many truly having the desire to practise general medicine, something has to give. A Harvard tuition bill with a DO degree going into the lower paying fields of medicine??? "Hey, let's join the military!" The points in the paper are true but the military is very slow to implement change...unless it suits them.

 

[qqq]

in my prior post.

http://www.usmedicine.com/column.cfm?columnID=147&issueID=56

It is by a retired Navy Admiral Dr. Koenig who has been an active voice in military medicine issues. It is an interesting article as it discusses the dramatic decrease in USUHS applications (about 50% over the past 5 years) as well as the rapid increase in the proportion of DO students among the HPSP applicants. Apparently the decline in the academic credentials of the HPSP/USUHS candidates is a "matter of concern" for some of the higher-ups in military medicine.

Any thoughts?

Interesting article. I would have liked it to go more in depth on the diminishing credentials of HPSP/USUHS applicants. To play devil's advocate, why would the military be concerned about this? Considering most of the people making decisions are not physicians themselves, why would they care that DOs may begin making up an increasingly larger percentage of military physicians? All they see is that the general practitioner slots are being filled. And if that's what the military needs the most, then they will be satisfied. What's the point of increasing the caliber of military medicine? Or having specialized phsyicians? We can just contract those out anyway. The conveyer belt approach to bringing in new physicians (as opposed to having the necessary provisions in place to foster retention) aptly suits the military bureacracy. It's cheap and effective. Who cares if these young docs get out because they had to do a GMO or were dissatisfied with other aspects of military medicine that could be changed if someone with power cared? There's plenty more where they came from. I think that's the bottome line.

On another note, do any of you doctors ever get guidance to not give out (or limit) referels to the civ med community? Especially for those that are not in hospitals, but are in locations where there is only a clinic, is there ever pressure for you to treat something that is outside your scope rather than refer patients to a specialist?

 

[Homunculus]

1) DO students are inherently more patriotic and pro-military than MD students
2) DO schools are all private with high tuition and thus debt is more of an issue for DO students vs many MD students that go to state schools with lower tuition.

DO students are also more likely to be "nontraditional" as well-- ie, people with prior military service who don;t mind going back in.

--your friendly neighborhood traditional caveman

 

[aatrek]

You know.. I think the problem with military docs is that they are LAZY... ..
Does no one hear understand that just because you are in the military does not mean that you can not have other income.
I agree that going into the military should not be about money.. But I am just starting in the miltary and I got to pick where I am going, I have three online medical jobs lined up (to do when ever I am free) and when I calculate it all out I will be traveling, living where I want, and making two and a half times what I was offered in a major univeristy hospital here in downtown Chicago.
I think docs in the military need to just sharpen their mind and FOR JUST ONCE IN THEIR LAZY _____ LIFE think outside the box...

And crooz is right.. stop crying about the money... either educate yourself on how to make some.. or shut up..

sorry.. for any harsh words..
A

 

[qqq]

You know.. I think the problem with military docs is that they are LAZY... ..
Does no one hear understand that just because you are in the military does not mean that you can not have other income.
I agree that going into the military should not be about money.. But I am just starting in the miltary and I got to pick where I am going, I have three online medical jobs lined up (to do when ever I am free) and when I calculate it all out I will be traveling, living where I want, and making two and a half times what I was offered in a major univeristy hospital here in downtown Chicago.
I think docs in the military need to just sharpen their mind and FOR JUST ONCE IN THEIR LAZY _____ LIFE think outside the box...

And crooz is right.. stop crying about the money... either educate yourself on how to make some.. or shut up..

sorry.. for any harsh words..
A

this is a great perspective that hasn't been brought up when i've talked to other people about what being a military doc is going to be like. I'd really like to hear more from you. what's an online medical job (i'm not a doctor)? You get paid some decent money for that? So you're saying it's entirely possible to have other employment in the civ world on the side? thanks

 

[Homunculus]

I'd really like to hear more from you. what's an online medical job (i'm not a doctor)? You get paid some decent money for that?

i'd like to hear more as well. i've tried looking for online medical stuff that doctors can do to supplement income, but haven't found any. i rotated with an FP one time that would do online surveys once a week or so and get $50-$100, but i forgot who it was through. there's got to be something out there, lol.

please let us in on the scoop

--your friendly neighborhood mouths to feed caveman

 

[AubreyMaturin]

If not eployed, could you moonlight at local hospitals or clinics? Just pick up shifts? If so, this would keep your skills sharp as well as supplement your income. There are also Pharma gigs and lawsuit gigs for expert witness'. these types of jobs are more abundant for specialists. Does the military allow you to take in outside income? I assume it does since I worked with a few marines at a restaurant ijust outside of Paris Island SC.

 

[USAF MD '05]

My buddy is an EM attending at Wright-Patterson AFB, which is professionally not stimulating at all. He moonlights for 180 bucks an hour at a downtown facility to keep his trauma/ procedural skills up. The ca$h can't hurt, either. He did say the military makes it kind of a pain in the ass to do, because of their rules of hours worked before shifts. I'm not clear on the exact policy, and it may vary between services. Hope this helps.
Steve
PS- I'd like to find out about those online gigs as well!

 

[Croooz]

My buddy is an EM attending at Wright-Patterson AFB, which is professionally not stimulating at all. He moonlights for 180 bucks an hour at a downtown facility to keep his trauma/ procedural skills up. The ca$h can't hurt, either. He did say the military makes it kind of a pain in the ass to do, because of their rules of hours worked before shifts. I'm not clear on the exact policy, and it may vary between services. Hope this helps.
Steve
PS- I'd like to find out about those online gigs as well!

No more than 16 hours a week....by Navy policy...and of course you have to get permission....don't ever forget "it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission".

 

[R-Me-Doc]

For what it is worth:

In the military, my finances are secured, and I can worry about practicing medicine.

RMD 1-4-10

 

[R-Me-Doc]

You know.. I think the problem with military docs is that they are LAZY... ..
Does no one hear understand that just because you are in the military does not mean that you can not have other income.
I agree that going into the military should not be about money.. But I am just starting in the miltary and I got to pick where I am going, I have three online medical jobs lined up (to do when ever I am free) and when I calculate it all out I will be traveling, living where I want, and making two and a half times what I was offered in a major univeristy hospital here in downtown Chicago.
I think docs in the military need to just sharpen their mind and FOR JUST ONCE IN THEIR LAZY _____ LIFE think outside the box...

And crooz is right.. stop crying about the money... either educate yourself on how to make some.. or shut up..

sorry.. for any harsh words..
A

Must be a derm or rads guy. With no personal or family life to boot. Who else would have all that free time?

Please, do tell me how I can make my lazy ass some more money when the Army has me working 12+ hours a day 6 or 7 days a week and on call the other 12 hours.

"Travelling and living where I want . . . ."? Sure, if you want to travel to Fallujah and live there . . .

 

[aatrek]

Ok.. guys.. lets take a deep breath...
Just because you seem to be living a "unhappy' life (R Me Doc) doesn't mean we all are.
First.. i am not a derm or a rad... guy.. I am acually a gen surg/surg Onc.. (so there..)
Yes i am busy.. and yes i have a very very active personal life.. Just finshed running a couple of M.thones.., taking japanese/guitar classes.. and all that.. of course being single helps.. (love the single life...)

Now, remember.. what I said about thinking outside the box.. Ok.. so i take trauma/gen surg call.. and guess what i do .. i teach online classes. I teach anatomy/physio and even teach education classes and pharm. when I AM ON CALL..... if I get called.. I pause what i am doing and take care of it and come back.. simple.

I also moonlight and i also do surgical consults online, but the later does not make lots of money..

anyway.. I feel like this whole thing is getting a little hostile.. and I really didn't want it to be.. I mean if you are comfortable just sitting there complianing about your money... blah blah blah.. then all power to you.. All I am going to say is that I am happy with what I have.. will make more than 250K in 2005.easy.... and that is not bad for a single 30 year old guy...
Now.. some of you guys.. might say that you can make more as a general surgeon in the US.. well wake up.. the average sallary of a gen. surg. (starting, since I am only 30) in chicago is 125K... ONLY>>>>> of course if you are in the middle of nowhere then you can make more.. but then you might as well be deployed... Now.. of course(as our good friend R-m-doc) pointed out.. you don't get deployed if you are not in the mil... but of course.. everything has its price.. and guess what.. even if you get deployed, its not forever......

so good luck to all of you.. and please.. cut the anger down.. a bit.. were all in the same club here.. or so I think..
A.

 

[Homunculus]

i teach online classes. I teach anatomy/physio and even teach education classes and pharm. when I AM ON CALL..... if I get called.. I pause what i am doing and take care of it and come back.. simple.

I also moonlight and i also do surgical consults online, but the later does not make lots of money..

so how do i get hooked up teaching online classes?

there's gotta be other stuff out there. i just gotta find it. you all will be the first to know when i find anything

--your friendly neighborhood in search of easy money caveman

 

[GMO2003]

so how do i get hooked up teaching online classes?

there's gotta be other stuff out there. i just gotta find it. you all will be the first to know when i find anything

--your friendly neighborhood in search of easy money caveman

keep us informed...good luck..I'll give everyone a heads up too if I find anything

 

[deuist]

so how do i get hooked up teaching online classes?

there's gotta be other stuff out there. i just gotta find it. you all will be the first to know when i find anything

--your friendly neighborhood in search of easy money caveman

Here are some links:

University of Phoenix
Kaplan University (<--- This link may not work)
Capella University
Walden University


Check out classesusa.com for an extensive list of online schools