Late interest in urology- am I screwed?

[Hocotate]

Hey everyone, I just finished a short rotation on my school's urology service and loved every second of it, so much so that I'm strongly considering applying. I had previously presumed I would just apply into medicine and go into a procedure-centric fellowship (cards or GI), but I had a last-minute change of heart and I'm now freaking out--primarily because I have avoided research during med school (not for lack of desire, but I just had a hard time balancing classes and extracurriculars), and had very little exposure to the field prior to this previous rotation.

I met with my school's program director and he said if I got started on a project now, I could have something to put on my CV and he didn't think I needed to take a research year... but I'm not confident that I would match at this rate. Step 1 was fine (252), honors in surgery with awesome comments, but high passes in medicine and OB/GYN (but, I also had excellent comments for both; my shelf scores earned me those high passes). I would be applying for this coming application cycle (graduating in 2019). As it stands, the PD said I could do two aways in August/September and use the time from now until then to get involved with projects and try to get things on my CV, but I couldn't be choosy about where I apply.

I'm not opposed to taking a research year, and I feel that's what is most likely going to happen, but I was just hoping for some input. Is urology even possible for me, at this point?

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[Hemorrage]

Your grades are definitely more than enough. You may match or you may not, it’s hard for me to say as many of the people that I know that didn’t match this year didn’t so because of a lack of perceived commitment to urology. If you decide to go through with applying I would definitely bust some butt from now until September to get some form of urology research done whether it be some posters, abstracts, anything. Additionally, pick your away rotations carefully and study hard to impress. Your aways will be your best source of strong letters of recommendation as well as your strongest chances of getting in. About 54% of people matched at their home or away institution this year. Let me know if you have more questions. Source: matched this year


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[Hocotate]

Your grades are definitely more than enough. You may match or you may not, it’s hard for me to say as many of the people that I know that didn’t match this year didn’t so because of a lack of perceived commitment to urology. If you decide to go through with applying I would definitely bust some butt from now until September to get some form of urology research done whether it be some posters, abstracts, anything. Additionally, pick your away rotations carefully and study hard to impress. Your aways will be your best source of strong letters of recommendation as well as your strongest chances of getting in. About 54% of people matched at their home or away institution this year. Let me know if you have more questions. Source: matched this year


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Could you elaborate on carefully choosing aways? In terms of competitiveness, geographic location, etc? I know a top program is not likely for me, so should I be doing my aways at mid/low tier programs?

 

[ERDOC555]

Hey everyone, I just finished a short rotation on my school's urology service and loved every second of it, so much so that I'm strongly considering applying. I had previously presumed I would just apply into medicine and go into a procedure-centric fellowship (cards or GI), but I had a last-minute change of heart and I'm now freaking out--primarily because I have avoided research during med school (not for lack of desire, but I just had a hard time balancing classes and extracurriculars), and had very little exposure to the field prior to this previous rotation.

I met with my school's program director and he said if I got started on a project now, I could have something to put on my CV and he didn't think I needed to take a research year... but I'm not confident that I would match at this rate. Step 1 was fine (252), honors in surgery with awesome comments, but high passes in medicine and OB/GYN (but, I also had excellent comments for both; my shelf scores earned me those high passes). I would be applying for this coming application cycle (graduating in 2019). As it stands, the PD said I could do two aways in August/September and use the time from now until then to get involved with projects and try to get things on my CV, but I couldn't be choosy about where I apply.

I'm not opposed to taking a research year, and I feel that's what is most likely going to happen, but I was just hoping for some input. Is urology even possible for me, at this point?

Personally, I don't think you would match if you applied right now, especially considering the URO match is early. You would only have a couple months before you submit the URO version of ERAS which likely isn't enough time to even complete and present a poster, let alone a publication.

You would be competing against people who have spent the last 1-3 years showing interest in Urology and getting research in. Deciding a couple months before residency applications on one of the most competitive specialties would be a major disadvantage.

You have great stats and I think you can match Uro eventually, but my personal opinion is that the window to decide on Uro (or any other competitive field) is closed for this year, and you wouldn't have enough time to build a quality application.

 

[cpants]

Hey everyone, I just finished a short rotation on my school's urology service and loved every second of it, so much so that I'm strongly considering applying. I had previously presumed I would just apply into medicine and go into a procedure-centric fellowship (cards or GI), but I had a last-minute change of heart and I'm now freaking out--primarily because I have avoided research during med school (not for lack of desire, but I just had a hard time balancing classes and extracurriculars), and had very little exposure to the field prior to this previous rotation.

I met with my school's program director and he said if I got started on a project now, I could have something to put on my CV and he didn't think I needed to take a research year... but I'm not confident that I would match at this rate. Step 1 was fine (252), honors in surgery with awesome comments, but high passes in medicine and OB/GYN (but, I also had excellent comments for both; my shelf scores earned me those high passes). I would be applying for this coming application cycle (graduating in 2019). As it stands, the PD said I could do two aways in August/September and use the time from now until then to get involved with projects and try to get things on my CV, but I couldn't be choosy about where I apply.

I'm not opposed to taking a research year, and I feel that's what is most likely going to happen, but I was just hoping for some input. Is urology even possible for me, at this point?

Not sure why you are asking this question on this board when the guy most qualified to answer this question for you already did. I would follow your program director's advice. Your stats are great. Try to get a couple of abstracts accepted prior to submission of your application -- very doable. Ask your PD about where to do aways. I would go with mid-low tier programs in a geographical region of your choosing.

The hit your application takes from having minimal research will take you out of contention for the best programs -- Indiana, Hopkins, Harvard. Otherwise, you are still a contender. It's much better to be in your situation than to be the guy with a 215 on the boards and tons of research. If you apply broadly, you will match somewhere. A research year is a big waste of time and money, and I wouldn't do one in almost any circumstance.

 

[Anicetus]

Hey everyone, I just finished a short rotation on my school's urology service and loved every second of it, so much so that I'm strongly considering applying. I had previously presumed I would just apply into medicine and go into a procedure-centric fellowship (cards or GI), but I had a last-minute change of heart and I'm now freaking out--primarily because I have avoided research during med school (not for lack of desire, but I just had a hard time balancing classes and extracurriculars), and had very little exposure to the field prior to this previous rotation.

I met with my school's program director and he said if I got started on a project now, I could have something to put on my CV and he didn't think I needed to take a research year... but I'm not confident that I would match at this rate. Step 1 was fine (252), honors in surgery with awesome comments, but high passes in medicine and OB/GYN (but, I also had excellent comments for both; my shelf scores earned me those high passes). I would be applying for this coming application cycle (graduating in 2019). As it stands, the PD said I could do two aways in August/September and use the time from now until then to get involved with projects and try to get things on my CV, but I couldn't be choosy about where I apply.

I'm not opposed to taking a research year, and I feel that's what is most likely going to happen, but I was just hoping for some input. Is urology even possible for me, at this point?

Don’t listen to SDNers. We had people without publications or research who matched uro this year with worse scores than yours. As long as you’re from US MD school with your scores you can match urology as long as you are not picky about location. The people I described above matched into undesirable locations, but they get to cut penises so their boats are floating.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

Don’t listen to SDNers. We had people without publications or research who matched uro this year with worse scores than yours. As long as you’re from US MD school with your scores you can match urology as long as you are not picky about location. The people I described above matched into undesirable locations, but they get to cut penises so their boats are floating.

Even then - the desirability of a location is highly subjective. I think Augusta GA is the best place on earth while various top notch residency programs in MCG have trouble attracting applicants.

 

[831929]

Definitely apply. Great score, can probably get a review article pub in by that time. Get some good letters and you have a chance. I don't think we should be constrained just because we made a decision closer to graduation. There is so little time to really experience every specialty so I don't see how someone can hold that against you.

 

[Cyphix]

I think you have a solid chance of matching without a research year - just make sure to do well on your away rotations. If you want to match at a top tier program, a research year would help.

 

[ERDOC555]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks that there are programs where no research at all is fine. Research isn't some novel thing for only top tier programs like Harvard/Stanford. Please link me to these ****ty community programs that will take people with 0-1 pubs/posters/abstract.

For the Competitive Specialties The average Pubs/Posters/Abstracts is often between 10-15 and that's just an average. The top programs are taking people with significantly higher numbers.

Sure "community programs" have less of a research focus, but in the uber competitive specialties like Derm/Plastic/Uro/Ortho etc I don't believe that there are safety programs that consistently take people with 250+ and 0 research.

Trying to match competitive specialties with 0 or minimal research is an uphill climb regardless of step score.

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To OP, good luck with whatever you choose. If you do decide to apply Uro outright, it would be interesting to see the outcome and I hope you can come back and let us know how it will turn out. I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.

Hopefully you can pump out some quick projects in time for your application!

 

[DoctwoB]

Trying to apply Uro? I wouldn’t say you’re screwed.


I’d say you’re boned.

 

[DoctwoB]

Hey everyone, I just finished a short rotation on my school's urology service and loved every second of it, so much so that I'm strongly considering applying. I had previously presumed I would just apply into medicine and go into a procedure-centric fellowship (cards or GI), but I had a last-minute change of heart and I'm now freaking out--primarily because I have avoided research during med school (not for lack of desire, but I just had a hard time balancing classes and extracurriculars), and had very little exposure to the field prior to this previous rotation.

I met with my school's program director and he said if I got started on a project now, I could have something to put on my CV and he didn't think I needed to take a research year... but I'm not confident that I would match at this rate. Step 1 was fine (252), honors in surgery with awesome comments, but high passes in medicine and OB/GYN (but, I also had excellent comments for both; my shelf scores earned me those high passes). I would be applying for this coming application cycle (graduating in 2019). As it stands, the PD said I could do two aways in August/September and use the time from now until then to get involved with projects and try to get things on my CV, but I couldn't be choosy about where I apply.

I'm not opposed to taking a research year, and I feel that's what is most likely going to happen, but I was just hoping for some input. Is urology even possible for me, at this point?

To be more helpful. It depends on what your goals are. If you apply broadly and interview well your odds of matching are pretty good, but you’ll be looking at a lower end program most likely. In uro, the number of spots is pretty tightly controlled so even lower end programs generally offer very good training, so that’s a viable option. Likewise most fellowships aren’t too competitive so you can use that to bolster your resume.

Alternatively, taking a year to do research, get to know your department for better letters, etc would definitely strengthen your application and maybe lead to a better match. Both are viable options. it just depends on how you want to approach it.

 

[cpants]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks that there are programs where no research at all is fine. Research isn't some novel thing for only top tier programs like Harvard/Stanford. Please link me to these ****ty community programs that will take people with 0-1 pubs/posters/abstract.

For the Competitive Specialties The average Pubs/Posters/Abstracts is often between 10-15 and that's just an average. The top programs are taking people with significantly higher numbers.

Sure "community programs" have less of a research focus, but in the uber competitive specialties like Derm/Plastic/Uro/Ortho etc I don't believe that there are safety programs that consistently take people with 250+ and 0 research.

Trying to match competitive specialties with 0 or minimal research is an uphill climb regardless of step score.

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To OP, good luck with whatever you choose. If you do decide to apply Uro outright, it would be interesting to see the outcome and I hope you can come back and let us know how it will turn out. I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.

Hopefully you can pump out some quick projects in time for your application!

Please don't misunderstand me, you need to check that research box. You need to get to work on something ASAP. The PD can help you or set you up with someone to work with. It's imperative that you get at least 1-2 research citations onto your CV. You have 6 months until applications are due. This is very doable. Deadline for WCE is in 2 weeks I think -- very low bar for acceptance. See if you can slap together a chart review!

That said, having only a small amount of research on your application is a negative, but it's not going to sink the ship. At least in urology, the average is not 10-15 publications. There are plenty of applicants in that range, but I would guess the average is about 7. We all understand that most people are playing a game to pad their application, and most of these "publications" are small retrospective abstracts that will never be published.

It's a much better situation to be applying with a 250+ and 2 publications than to be applying with a 220 and 2 publications. On interviews, you need to be able to explain why you weren't productive and what you are currently working on. If you do OK with that and have an otherwise strong application, you will match somewhere.

The away rotations very important for you. You are most likely to match at one of these places, so choose wisely and work hard.

I will again say to you that you should value the advice your program director gave you much more than what random medical students on this board, most of whom aren't even involved with urology, are telling you. They have no idea what is required. The PD actually selects candidates every year for his program, and he is telling you to move forward.

Taking a research year is a very extreme step. In most cases it will be unfunded, meaning a huge financial and time sacrifice for you. In most cases, you won't be as productive as you think you think you will. It's also a big risk. If you do it, you better make sure you are extremely productive. I'm talking 4-5 papers and 15-20 abstracts minimum. If you show up with 5 things on your CV after a year of research, that is going to look very bad.

 

[FutureDoc1088]

I’m an ortho resident but I think my advice still applies. I think the sub-I means a TON. As others have noted, you are most likely to match where you rotate. Kill it and be an awesome person to everyone, show you work hard and prepare, arrive early and stay late, and I think everyone will care more about that that how many crappy posters you put together. On the other hand, as someone who did a research year (I felt similarly to you and had similar stats/decided late on ortho), doing a research year is not just about pumping out publications. Sure, it’s important to publish if you do one, but it’s also a time to form relationships with people at whatever program you do the research year. Mine was funded, as are many in ortho, so you’d have to find those opportunities in urology. If you want to do a fellowship, the research will follow you during residency and help you there. If you want to do academics someday, the research will be there for you on your CV. Most importantly, if you still find yourself wanting to pursue urology after a whole year of research, chances are that it’s the right field for you. A couple weeks on a rotation may not be enough to solidify that dream, but a whole year plus sub-Is should let you know if you’re making a mistake. Better to do that in my opinion than match and then waste a hard year of being a general surgery intern than to figure it out before applying. Also, urology applications are early from what I recall from classmates so you really don’t have time to prove your pursuit of the field. I know a guy that was very competitive for optho who didn’t match for similar reasons, did a research year, then matched easily. You might get lucky this time around, and if you kill your aways you might not need luck. But I do think research is a viable option that I’m glad I pursued. Made the application process last year very enjoyable. A year in ortho research also helped me do dry well on my in training exam which is a side plus. Hope this helps.

 

[Newyawk]

Please don't misunderstand me, you need to check that research box. You need to get to work on something ASAP. The PD can help you or set you up with someone to work with. It's imperative that you get at least 1-2 research citations onto your CV. You have 6 months until applications are due. This is very doable. Deadline for WCE is in 2 weeks I think -- very low bar for acceptance. See if you can slap together a chart review!

That said, having only a small amount of research on your application is a negative, but it's not going to sink the ship. At least in urology, the average is not 10-15 publications. There are plenty of applicants in that range, but I would guess the average is about 7. We all understand that most people are playing a game to pad their application, and most of these "publications" are small retrospective abstracts that will never be published.

It's a much better situation to be applying with a 250+ and 2 publications than to be applying with a 220 and 2 publications. On interviews, you need to be able to explain why you weren't productive and what you are currently working on. If you do OK with that and have an otherwise strong application, you will match somewhere.

The away rotations very important for you. You are most likely to match at one of these places, so choose wisely and work hard.

I will again say to you that you should value the advice your program director gave you much more than what random medical students on this board, most of whom aren't even involved with urology, are telling you. They have no idea what is required. The PD actually selects candidates every year for his program, and he is telling you to move forward.

Taking a research year is a very extreme step. In most cases it will be unfunded, meaning a huge financial and time sacrifice for you. In most cases, you won't be as productive as you think you think you will. It's also a big risk. If you do it, you better make sure you are extremely productive. I'm talking 4-5 papers and 15-20 abstracts minimum. If you show up with 5 things on your CV after a year of research, that is going to look very bad.

Love your advice cuz it makes me feel better about myself.
On a similar note - is it "late" to discover you like urology at the end of MS2? Assuming you start research right away

 

[cpants]

Love your advice cuz it makes me feel better about myself.
On a similar note - is it "late" to discover you like urology at the end of MS2? Assuming you start research right away

Good luck.

It's not too late in MS2. I would advise all medical students to get involved in research MS1 and continuing throughout residency. Even if you aren't very interested in research, it keeps your options open. If you had done research in anything your first two years, you would be a lot better off now.

 

[Newyawk]

Good luck.

It's not too late in MS2. I would advise all medical students to get involved in research MS1 and continuing throughout residency. Even if you aren't very interested in research, it keeps your options open. If you had done research in anything your first two years, you would be a lot better off now.

I did do research in undergrad through med school in an unrelated field at the same lab (albeit largely unproductive - one abstract and paper still in the works for a few years now). Would that be of any help?

 

[Hemorrage]

Could you elaborate on carefully choosing aways? In terms of competitiveness, geographic location, etc? I know a top program is not likely for me, so should I be doing my aways at mid/low tier programs?

So my advice would be to aim for one program that is known to be a good rotation (I.e offers you the chance to shine provided you work hard) and has a well known chair that other programs would recognize.

The second program can be one you’re genuinely interested in matching at and ideally that you would stand a strong chance of getting into provided they like you during your time there. I would focus on identifying programs that don’t typically get a ton of away rotators (1-2 resident/yr community urology oriented programs).

This will cover your bases. As for geography, your interviews will likely be distributed based on where you rotate and who you get letters from. If you want to “open” up other areas of the country it may be beneficial to rotate outside the AUA section where your medical school is.


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[cpants]

I did do research in undergrad through med school in an unrelated field at the same lab (albeit largely unproductive - one abstract and paper still in the works for a few years now). Would that be of any help?

Yes the abstract will help minimally. Papers in the works are meaningless -- only presented, published, or "in-process" projects can go on your application.

 

[cpants]

So my advice would be to aim for one program that is known to be a good rotation (I.e offers you the chance to shine provided you work hard) and has a well known chair that other programs would recognize.

The second program can be one you’re genuinely interested in matching at and ideally that you would stand a strong chance of getting into provided they like you during your time there. I would focus on identifying programs that don’t typically get a ton of away rotators (1-2 resident/yr community urology oriented programs).

This will cover your bases. As for geography, your interviews will likely be distributed based on where you rotate and who you get letters from. If you want to “open” up other areas of the country it may be beneficial to rotate outside the AUA section where your medical school is.


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Agree about focusing on programs that don't get tons of rotators and community type programs (not that there are many). Places that accept a dozen medical students for rotations (Mt. Sinai for example) is a waste of a rotation, in my opinion. You want to go somewhere where they will remember who you are.

Disagree about seeking out a well known program or chair. At every urology program in the country there is someone well known enough to write you a good letter. These are your chances for an extended audition, and your best chance at matching. Make sure you go to a place where you have a shot at matching. Even if MGH accepts you as a rotating student, there is basically no chance of matching there without good research -- wasted rotation. A letter from a bigger name is not as valuable as that rotation time selling yourself to a program.