Oct 1, 2019
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Dear All,

Would you please share the contact information for attorneys who are experts in ACGME rules and who really understand the residency experience. Looking for someone who has solid experience with working with residents in the past and understands the ramifications of legal decisions on our long term career's. An ACGME/residency subject matter expert is what I am looking for. Not interested so much in finding a litigator.

Best Regards.
 
Oct 1, 2019
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Are you gonna let us play internet lawyer and give us a hint what you are thinking?
I dont feel comfortable disclosing the nature of my case. If anyone has any solid recommendations, I would be in debted to you.
 
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90dayMD

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Dear All,

Would you please share the contact information for attorneys who are experts in ACGME rules and who really understand the residency experience. Looking for someone who has solid experience with working with residents in the past and understands the ramifications of legal decisions on our long term career's. An ACGME/residency subject matter expert is what I am looking for. Not interested so much in finding a litigator.

Best Regards.


Unfortunately lawyers have no clue in general about ACGME or the whole residency process in general. Unfortunately if a program wants you out it's hard to not be kicked out. This is a major issue in our training system in my opinion. A reasonable solution should be found.
 
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GoSpursGo

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Yeah as others have said what you’re looking for doesn’t really exist, mostly because the ACGME is really only interested in whether programs are complying either guidelines from a program-wide perspective. They can institute probation or other sanctions on the program when they are noncompliant, but they basically don’t have a role when it comes to disputes between a program and an individual resident. If you're having an issue with your program, chances are the important details are in your contract and not in ACGME rules/regulations.

I'd say 95% of the time when someone asks a question like this, they either have no real case or would be better served in the long-run by just putting their head down and dealing with whatever probation they've been given. Of course, without details I can't begin to guess whether you could be an exception.
 

DokterMom

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You may want to search here for threads regarding terminated residents and see if there are any follow-up opportunities. I've never seen individual lawyers or law firms mentioned, but various threads have linked to lawsuits and court filings.

It's a start, anyway...
 
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Goro

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You may want to search here for threads regarding terminated residents and see if there are any follow-up opportunities. I've never seen individual lawyers or law firms mentioned, but various threads have linked to lawsuits and court filings.
What I remember seeing form such threads in this forum is that the fired residents all had good cause for being fired and lost their cases.

"They punished/fired me for having/being X" was a common defense, and that fell apart quickly when it came out that said residents were either unteachable and/or a danger to patients.
 

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What I remember seeing form such threads in this forum is that the fired residents all had good cause for being fired and lost their cases.

"They punished/fired me for having/being X" was a common defense, and that fell apart quickly when it came out that said residents were either unteachable and/or a danger to patients.
It's also an incredibly expensive process, and lawyers of course never give guarantees or much assistance, they also tend to be clueless and lack understanding of how the complex and cumbersome medical system works. Not to mention that if a program wants you out, they will have a team of lawyers in the hospital/program and a bunch of attendings that will say how resident x was terrible in every possible way. Because medical education is so subjective, it's hard to argue the point.
The only times I have seen residents succeed is when there has been a massive resident upheaval where many residents got together, or when there is sexual harassment that is significant.
Outside of that, while the resident might truly not be at fault in certain cases, it's hard to argue the point. Look at the case of resident Maria Artunduaga, who sued U of C. She lost after years of fighting in court.
Had she won, would she really have wanted to be in a program that she had sued and fought in court with for years? Who knows but the point is that even if you DID win and were reinstated it would take years likely and I doubt most residents would want to be in that type of environment.
 

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Outside of that, while the resident might truly not be at fault in certain cases, it's hard to argue the point. Look at the case of resident Maria Artunduaga, who sued U of C. She lost after years of fighting in court.
Had she won, would she really have wanted to be in a program that she had sued and fought in court with for years? Who knows but the point is that even if you DID win and were reinstated it would take years likely and I doubt most residents would want to be in that type of environment.
IIRC she lost so badly that she had to pay UofC's legal fees, which... ouch.

/also not a great sign for the merits of her case.
 

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IIRC she lost so badly that she had to pay UofC's legal fees, which... ouch.

/also not a great sign for the merits of her case.
What does IIRC mean? I think she won on one or two counts, which were negligible from what I remember reading years ago. I was not aware she had to pay legal fees. I would agree with you, if that was the case I'm sure it'd be ouch. she started her own respiratory/COPD management type company so good for her I suppose.
 

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IIRC she lost so badly that she had to pay UofC's legal fees, which... ouch.

/also not a great sign for the merits of her case.
Ok I actually checked this in between patients and you are right - seems U of C got a massive victory which is not shocking given that I am sure they have far more money and could have a much better legal defense.
 
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gutonc

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This is (predictably) getting far off topic from the OP's question.

That said, the OP's question is basically unanswerable without more information and I suspect that the question that the OP has is not the question that was actually asked.

So, @md9900 , if you're looking for some actual help and a useful answer to your question, I recommend that you post in the Confidential Consult forum which has very limited access and will not be viewable on the public forum if you do not want it to be. In the absence of more information, nobody here will be able to help you.
 

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That, or she was simply a disaster as a fellow.
Not even a fellow, her plastics residency contract didn't get renewed after the 1st year. Apparently she then went and got 3 more masters degrees for whatever reason lol.
 
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90dayMD

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Not even a fellow, her plastics residency contract didn't get renewed after the 1st year. Apparently she then went and got 3 more masters degrees for whatever reason lol.
She also founded RespiraLabs - she has to do something with all that education. I say good for her she's making the best of her situation. If I were her though, I'd set up primary care clinics in the Chicagoland area - she is from Colombia, and Chicago has a large Hispanic population, and there is a significant need for primary care docs. She could likely make bank if she set up clinics for Spanish speaking patients for example and hired doctors/midlevels to work them. But regardless good for her for trying to make the best.
 

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This is (predictably) getting far off topic from the OP's question.

That said, the OP's question is basically unanswerable without more information and I suspect that the question that the OP has is not the question that was actually asked.

So, @md9900 , if you're looking for some actual help and a useful answer to your question, I recommend that you post in the Confidential Consult forum which has very limited access and will not be viewable on the public forum if you do not want it to be. In the absence of more information, nobody here will be able to help you.
That's what we do at SDN. We get off topic. But you are right. Back to OP. Good advice gutonc.
 

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It's also an incredibly expensive process, and lawyers of course never give guarantees or much assistance, they also tend to be clueless and lack understanding of how the complex and cumbersome medical system works. Not to mention that if a program wants you out, they will have a team of lawyers in the hospital/program and a bunch of attendings that will say how resident x was terrible in every possible way. Because medical education is so subjective, it's hard to argue the point.
The only times I have seen residents succeed is when there has been a massive resident upheaval where many residents got together, or when there is sexual harassment that is significant.
Outside of that, while the resident might truly not be at fault in certain cases, it's hard to argue the point. Look at the case of resident Maria Artunduaga, who sued U of C. She lost after years of fighting in court.
Had she won, would she really have wanted to be in a program that she had sued and fought in court with for years? Who knows but the point is that even if you DID win and were reinstated it would take years likely and I doubt most residents would want to be in that type of environment.
Most lawyers dealing with cases like OP's (assumed dismissal) are grifters that will drag things out to no effect. "Lawyering up" is functionally useless. You can get an attorney, but unless your program did something egregious you will lose and be out a fortune in the process
 
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Most lawyers dealing with cases like OP's (assumed dismissal) are grifters that will drag things out to no effect. "Lawyering up" is functionally useless. You can get an attorney, but unless your program did something egregious you will lose and be out a fortune in the process
What is a grifter? In my very limited (thankfully) experience with lawyers, most don't do a great job. Also they realistically hold absolutely no power - the only one who makes a decision is a judge, or in the case of a jury trial a jury. At times a person can do a better job representing themselves than a lawyer can - part of the reason the legal profession is in the dumps. Lawyers also have a hard time understanding the complex process of medicine, how things work, etc. So I would agree that unless something really bad was done by the program, which does happen, it's really hard to prove - even if it did happen - and let's be honest, many programs do use and abuse residents without a doubt. But given how subjective thigns are it's so challenging to prove. And just as in the case of Maria A, if a bunch of attendings team up and say how awful resident x was, it's hard to counter that.
 

Mad Jack

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What is a grifter? In my very limited (thankfully) experience with lawyers, most don't do a great job. Also they realistically hold absolutely no power - the only one who makes a decision is a judge, or in the case of a jury trial a jury. At times a person can do a better job representing themselves than a lawyer can - part of the reason the legal profession is in the dumps. Lawyers also have a hard time understanding the complex process of medicine, how things work, etc. So I would agree that unless something really bad was done by the program, which does happen, it's really hard to prove - even if it did happen - and let's be honest, many programs do use and abuse residents without a doubt. But given how subjective thigns are it's so challenging to prove. And just as in the case of Maria A, if a bunch of attendings team up and say how awful resident x was, it's hard to counter that.
A grifter is a small-time swindler, usually preying on hopes and dreams
 
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Most lawyers dealing with cases like OP's (assumed dismissal) are grifters that will drag things out to no effect. "Lawyering up" is functionally useless. You can get an attorney, but unless your program did something egregious you will lose and be out a fortune in the process
I think it depends on what's going on. If I was a resident who got in trouble for something and was forced to get a psych eval/fitness for duty test or was referred to a physician health program, I'd definitely talk to a lawyer first. Likewise if I was given an option to resign or be terminated, I'd consult an attorney. At the least the attorney could help with getting a neutral letter from my PD or something to help if I apply to residency again.
 
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