Law vs Medicine

[Gauss44]

As a law student who decided law wasnt for me, this is false. The issue is that there is a forced curve and come finals everyone knows the law well, its all about who can write an exam answer in the format law professors like, and they all have different preferences. That is why many people feel that grading in law school is arbitrary. The old adage is that you dont take contracts, you take contracts with professor x.

Paralegal experience has virtually no impact on grades outside of maybe legal research and writing, which is usually pass fail anyway at top schools.


As for the OP I cant tell you what to do but I can give you advice is you go to law school. I went to a lower ranked school with a full tuition scholarship because I was afraid of debt. DONT DO THAT. Go to the best school you get into. PAYE makes most of that debt irrelevant if you dont get biglaw. But where you go to school WILL follow you around forever unless you decide to go solo or start a small firm.

If you are being graded on a curve or against other students, then IMO it really matters whether they are A-students, C-students, etc. And it matters if your competition tends to be prepared and plan ahead. I would much rather compete against a group of F-students.

Paralegal experience is a much needed boost. Gradewise, it will help the most in legal research and writing, but will set you apart from your non-paralegal peers in many ways. Having paralegal experience will get you hired easier and will help you move up the ranks. (It's not the only factor. It will help.) A paralegal certificate is also easy to get, costs only a few thousand dollars, takes less than 6 months, and paralegal positions are easy to find. There's no good reason not to do it. Employers love paralegal experience.

You don't need to go to a top school to get into BigLaw at all. But, like medical school, you do need to make yourself impressive somehow. If you pursue BigLaw with the same amount of time and energy you would put into medical school, there's no reason for it not to happen. If you are really stuck on BigLaw, make your 1st year grades rock, and do everything I said above. Most people don't. Most people who apply to law school don't qualify for medical school. You can't compare yourself to them in this situation.

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[Law2Doc]

I started medical school in August of 1979 when I was 20; then, ~85% of entering students were traditional and were 22 years of age. Today, ~ 70% of entering students at the same school are traditional and 22 years of age; that 31 year-old non-trad really skews the average.

Competition for slots is fierce, and it's a numbers game upfront, but we'd still rather have students start right from undergraduate. And counter to your "thinking" stated above, (and present company probably excluded) traditional students do perform better statistically in medical school than do non-trads, exceptional students are found in both paths. We do look favorably at those applicants who do take a science courses heavy post-bac ("fifth year"), and they statistically do almost as well as traditionals.

One note, in exit interviews we have seen that fewer non-trads actually tried for AOA, both in numbers obviously, but also by percentage in either path-- due to a variety of reasons. We see that non-trads tend to be less "gunnerish" than their younger classmates (match lists reflect that difference in specific ways too) and we've had zero non-trads enter the MD/Ph.D. program in the last four years.

And counselor, previous lives matter-- we take a real long look at "other profession" applicants, especially from law. Seriously: we look at lawyers entering medical school as a type of inoculation for the class-- a little "infection" from that profession does the class some good.

First, I don't know where you are (don't really care to know though) that would "rather have students directly from undergrad", but the national average age is in fact several years higher than your numbers suggest and many programs have a pretty decent percentage of their incoming class coming from postbacs or advanced degrees. That you are at a program that bucks the national average maybe says something about your program more than about its admittees. Considering nontrads are a tiny minority of the applicants the fact that the national average age is higher than you suggest actually shows me that at MOST med schools there's a bit of a benefit to having some life experiences. Whatever. Second, I never even discussed whether nontrads or trads do better IN med school, so you are just creating your own points to argue, and assigning me a position. reading comprehension is a must, my friend. (On your side point, I would point out that fewer nontrads in MD PhD tracks may simply reflect the fact that some nontrads already have PhDs and other advanced degrees. The goal isn't to collect the most paper. Additionally a number of trads do PhD for the stipend while nontrads coming out of prior lucrative careers may not need it.) Finally most lawyers who get into med school get in because their law career gave them good experiences and transferable skills that were ultimately the "hook" that helped them into med school. Many of us have talked to adcoms after admission about this and know what the thought process was. That you are postulating that your program looks at them as an inoculation/disease is not reflective on programs nationally, fortunately, and again probably says something about your particular program which isnt maybe something you really want to brag about. Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
You don't need to go to a top school to get into BigLaw at all. But, like medical school, you do need to make yourself impressive somehow. If you pursue BigLaw with the same amount of time and energy you would put into medical school, there's no reason for it not to happen. If you are really stuck on BigLaw, make your 1st year grades rock, and do everything I said above. Most people don't. Most people who apply to law school don't qualify for medical school. You can't compare yourself to them in this situation.

agree with this. It's a common misconception on this board that only the graduates from the top handful of schools get big law. In fact, your odds are probably better if you are an editor of law review and one of the top students from a regional law school. Meaning firms like to hire the very top guys at the law school across the street almost as much as they like the guy in the top half of the top ten school three states away. Local matters to clients so it matters to firms.

 

[circulus vitios]

agree with this. It's a common misconception on this board that only the graduates from the top handful of schools get big law. In fact, your odds are probably better if you are an editor of law review and one of the top students from a regional law school. Meaning firms like to hire the very top guys at the law school across the street almost as much as they like the guy in the top half of the top ten school three states away. Local matters to clients so it matters to firms.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...9668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130317152725 I'd say this disagrees with you?

 

[Law2Doc]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...9668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130317152725 I'd say this disagrees with you?

It actually doesn't disagree with me. Pick out almost any regional school and you will find a handful of people who ended up in big law.

 

[Gauss44]

It actually doesn't disagree with me. Pick out almost any regional school and you will find a handful of people who ended up in big law.

I like this feature (scroll down and select the "firm" tab left of the pie chart): http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202588887416

If you are using the feature where you select a firm on the left and get a pie chart showing where the new attorneys (aka first year associates) graduated from, you can complement that with this list of BigLaw firms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100_largest_law_firms_by_revenue

Pick your BigLaw firm. See where their new attorneys graduated from.

 

[circulus vitios]

I like this feature (scroll down and select the "firm" tab left of the pie chart): http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202588887416

If you are using the feature where you select a firm on the left and get a pie chart showing where the new attorneys (aka first year associates) graduated from, you can complement that with this list of BigLaw firms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100_largest_law_firms_by_revenue

Pick your BigLaw firm. See where their new attorneys graduated from.

Banking on being one of the 10-20 people in a class of 100 students is a good idea? Law and medicine pull on very different skill sets. Looking at law firm biographies is flawed unless you only look at new graduates, and that still says nothing about any possible connections they had to get there.

 

[Gauss44]

Banking on being....

Circulus Vitios: Your pie chart shows that top schools are far from the only place BigLaw attorneys come from. I think that the point you are trying to make by quoting a statistics is leaving out a great deal of relevant information.

 

[Danbo1957]

You know where I am counselor, on the med-school admin committee at one of the institutions at the Texas Medical Center.

 

[Tommyguns89]

If you are being graded on a curve or against other students, then IMO it really matters whether they are A-students, C-students, etc. And it matters if your competition tends to be prepared and plan ahead. I would much rather compete against a group of F-students.

Paralegal experience is a much needed boost. Gradewise, it will help the most in legal research and writing, but will set you apart from your non-paralegal peers in many ways. Having paralegal experience will get you hired easier and will help you move up the ranks. (It's not the only factor. It will help.) A paralegal certificate is also easy to get, costs only a few thousand dollars, takes less than 6 months, and paralegal positions are easy to find. There's no good reason not to do it. Employers love paralegal experience.

You don't need to go to a top school to get into BigLaw at all. But, like medical school, you do need to make yourself impressive somehow. If you pursue BigLaw with the same amount of time and energy you would put into medical school, there's no reason for it not to happen. If you are really stuck on BigLaw, make your 1st year grades rock, and do everything I said above. Most people don't. Most people who apply to law school don't qualify for medical school. You can't compare yourself to them in this situation.

Im sorry but this is just false, at least today. Biglaw is prestige obsessed and there are certain grade/school rank cut offs(varies between top 50% at top 6 all the way to top 5% at TTT). You have one chance in your first year(first year grades are the ones that matter because you interview for biglaw in 2l OCI) and if you miss the boat that door is closed for the most part. Of course there are exceptions, but they are of the "my dad is the CEO of a major client for the firm" than "I worked at the firm as a paralegal"

If you dont believe me as a law student, read Paul Campos' blog, he is a law professor so he carries more credibility.

 

[Tommyguns89]

agree with this. It's a common misconception on this board that only the graduates from the top handful of schools get big law. In fact, your odds are probably better if you are an editor of law review and one of the top students from a regional law school. Meaning firms like to hire the very top guys at the law school across the street almost as much as they like the guy in the top half of the top ten school three states away. Local matters to clients so it matters to firms.

This is true but your odds of being at the top of any law school class are small, so overall your odds are MUCH greater going to a top school. 95% of the class at a TT/TTT wont be in the top 5%.

 

[Alembic12]

Law and medicine pull on very different skill sets.

This is what worries me. Could you perhaps elaborate on how the two respective skill sets might differ? I.E., the things necessary for a competent/talented lawyer vs a competent/talented doctor.

Obviously, the capacity to work long hours and a rather high degree intelligence would be required of both.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Im sorry but this is just false, at least today. Biglaw is prestige obsessed and there are certain grade/school rank cut offs(varies between top 50% at top 6 all the way to top 5% at TTT). You have one chance in your first year(first year grades are the ones that matter because you interview for biglaw in 2l OCI) and if you miss the boat that door is closed for the most part. Of course there are exceptions, but they are of the "my dad is the CEO of a major client for the firm" than "I worked at the firm as a paralegal"

If you dont believe me as a law student, read Paul Campos' blog, he is a law professor so he carries more credibility.

Biglaw hiring, and I suppose legal hiring in general, changed quite a bit after the crash. Will the law economy bounce back to previous hiring levels where more than a handful of regional school grads get biglaw? A lot of people I've talked to say no.

 

[LaughingMan]

No Brainer - Medicine.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Biglaw hiring, and I suppose legal hiring in general, changed quite a bit after the crash. Will the law economy bounce back to previous hiring levels where more than a handful of regional school grads get biglaw? A lot of people I've talked to say no.

Campos actually thinks it has been declining for quite some time now. I know there is writing from a long time ago like early 1900s saying that there was a lawyer surplus even then.

But keep in mind that even if you win the biglaw lottery, you very well may still lose in the long run.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-reader-suggested-i-take-look-at.html

 

[Snowdon48]

I suggest watching a few seasons of Law and Order and then watching a few seasons of Greys Anatomy and then decide.

 

[Gauss44]

Im sorry but this is just false, at least today. Biglaw is prestige obsessed and there are certain grade/school rank cut offs(varies between top 50% at top 6 all the way to top 5% at TTT). You have one chance in your first year(first year grades are the ones that matter because you interview for biglaw in 2l OCI) and if you miss the boat that door is closed for the most part. Of course there are exceptions, but they are of the "my dad is the CEO of a major client for the firm" than "I worked at the firm as a paralegal"

If you dont believe me as a law student, read Paul Campos' blog, he is a law professor so he carries more credibility.

I think we're closest to agreeing on the bold part.

Most BigLaw firms hire summer associates to a large extent, but not entirely, based on their 1st year grades (being a paralegal helps too, as do accomplishments, etc.). Then those firms invite the same people back, offering them positions upon graduation. Some people like it this way, knowing by the end of their 2nd year of law school, that they're in!

If you don't end up with a summer associate position by the end of your 2nd year, it becomes much more difficult to get in. (Some would say, "nearly impossible" at that point, but that depends on who you are. It's not random. It is picky, very picky.) BigLaw aggressively recruits the strongest players in whatever area of law they need. If you stand out among your peers as a terrific attorney (or better yet a leader or significant figure in that area of law) and your area of law is needed by a firm, you're likely to be approached. BigLaw also swallows and acquires smaller firms, sometimes to add practice areas (which means keeping most of the lawyers). BigLaw basically takes what it wants, or tries to. Your job is to make it want you.

On the partner level, BigLaw attorneys often go back and forth between the public and private sectors, sometimes holding a public office. Some go back and forth between working at a financial firm or corporation and BigLaw. Most BigLaw partners, I believe, have worked at more than one firm.

I personally really like circulus vitios' pie chart, which shows that you don't have to go to a top school to get into BigLaw. You do have to be a strong candidate.

Edit:

If you are a good candidate and know someone in BigLaw, they can tell you when a position opens up. If they refer you, you have a better chance at getting in and they will probably get a whopping bonus if you're hired.

If you are a wise paralegal, you will use it to network. Join legal clubs that interest you. Really get to know what firms you like and why. Better yet, get to know recruiters who frequent social gatherings. Backdoors are not limited to relatives. No, being a paralegal doesn't guarantee anything. It is always a huge plus (for the experience alone), and a bigger plus if you use it right.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is true but your odds of being at the top of any law school class are small, so overall your odds are MUCH greater going to a top school. 95% of the class at a TT/TTT wont be in the top 5%.

Well your odds of getting into a top ten school out of the hundreds out there, and then being in the top 50-60% that actually get to big law (based on the NLJ article cited above) really isn't really going to be better than your odds of going to a regional school (relatively easy to get into) and then being one of the top 5% and on law review. I'm just saying the door is actually open to a wider range of people than you would think from reading SDN.

If I were trying to get from undergrad to law today, I'd probably not take the "top school or bust" approach, but rather plan to go to the best place I could get into and then plan to work like I was a first year med student. The competition in law school isn't as extreme as med school because very few people treat it as intensely. A lot if people are there because they didn't decide what to do with their liberal arts degrees and need a few more years to figure things out. If you went to a decent regional law school and put in the same kind of effort most med students do, you'd rise to the top pretty impressively.

 

[Law2Doc]

Circulus Vitios: Your pie chart shows that top schools are far from the only place BigLaw attorneys come from...

exactly. That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Law2Doc]

...Law and medicine pull on very different skill sets...

not really. There are more similarities than differences. In both fields you can get really far by being able to think on your feet, have good interpersonal skills, and be willing to put in long hours mastering your craft. Most of the people who are told would make a good lawyer generally don't. The stereotype lawyer generally isn't the guy who makes it into Big Law. it's the guy who probably would succeed in any profession because of his brain power and work ethic who does.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

If you are being graded on a curve or against other students, then IMO it really matters whether they are A-students, C-students, etc. And it matters if your competition tends to be prepared and plan ahead. I would much rather compete against a group of F-students.

Paralegal experience is a much needed boost. Gradewise, it will help the most in legal research and writing, but will set you apart from your non-paralegal peers in many ways. Having paralegal experience will get you hired easier and will help you move up the ranks. (It's not the only factor. It will help.) A paralegal certificate is also easy to get, costs only a few thousand dollars, takes less than 6 months, and paralegal positions are easy to find. There's no good reason not to do it. Employers love paralegal experience.

You don't need to go to a top school to get into BigLaw at all. But, like medical school, you do need to make yourself impressive somehow. If you pursue BigLaw with the same amount of time and energy you would put into medical school, there's no reason for it not to happen. If you are really stuck on BigLaw, make your 1st year grades rock, and do everything I said above. Most people don't. Most people who apply to law school don't qualify for medical school. You can't compare yourself to them in this situation.

The chances of you getting into biglaw from a non T14 school diminish the further and further you get down the rankings list. Do you need to go to a top school to break into biglaw? no. Is it likely that you will at a lower ranked school? absolutely not.

Yes, your chances rise as you rise in class rank, and being at the top of your class matters alot, but considering that you have to be in the top 5% of your class at a school like, say Pace in order to have the same opportunities and career prospects as someone from the top 50% of NYU is ridiculous.

When you're paying the same tuition and total COA at a private TTT as you would at a T14 school for drastically different career prospects you'll naturally strive towards the T14 school.

 

[circulus vitios]

Well your odds of getting into a top ten school out of the hundreds out there, and then being in the top 50-60% that actually get to big law (based on the NLJ article cited above) really isn't really going to be better than your odds of going to a regional school (relatively easy to get into) and then being one of the top 5% and on law review. I'm just saying the door is actually open to a wider range of people than you would think from reading SDN.

If I were trying to get from undergrad to law today, I'd probably not take the "top school or bust" approach, but rather plan to go to the best place I could get into and then plan to work like I was a first year med student. The competition in law school isn't as extreme as med school because very few people treat it as intensely. A lot if people are there because they didn't decide what to do with their liberal arts degrees and need a few more years to figure things out. If you went to a decent regional law school and put in the same kind of effort most med students do, you'd rise to the top pretty impressively.

I think it would be better to look at typical law outcomes: six figure student loan debt and $50k/year starting salaries.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I suggest watching a few seasons of Law and Order and then watching a few seasons of Greys Anatomy and then decide.

some of the girls on grey's anatomy are smoking. complete bitches, but smoking.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Well your odds of getting into a top ten school out of the hundreds out there, and then being in the top 50-60% that actually get to big law (based on the NLJ article cited above) really isn't really going to be better than your odds of going to a regional school (relatively easy to get into) and then being one of the top 5% and on law review. I'm just saying the door is actually open to a wider range of people than you would think from reading SDN.

If I were trying to get from undergrad to law today, I'd probably not take the "top school or bust" approach, but rather plan to go to the best place I could get into and then plan to work like I was a first year med student. The competition in law school isn't as extreme as med school because very few people treat it as intensely. A lot if people are there because they didn't decide what to do with their liberal arts degrees and need a few more years to figure things out. If you went to a decent regional law school and put in the same kind of effort most med students do, you'd rise to the top pretty impressively.

The thing is as I am sure you can attest to, law school curriculum isnt straight forward. It is a lot more subjective than what I assume Medical school education to be like(at least in the first 2 years). Most law professors "hide the ball" and class lecture is the professor more asking questions via Socratic method than giving answers.

There was a saying amongst the class that came before mine "you cant outwork the curve", the sense is that grading in law school tends to be arbitrary outside of those who do no work and finish at the bottom. Point being that a lot of people "work like a first year med student" and finish around median. One kid I know was at the library all the time, never went out, etc. and finished just above median. You do well in law school by knowing your professor, not by knowing the law imo. And I did fairly well my first semester without working very hard. In fact I decided I was going to leave 2 weeks before finals and barely prepared at all and I finished better than the kid at the library all the time who has both a higher GPA and lsat than me.

All I am saying is that law school is much more of a gamble than med school.

 

[jw3600]

Biglaw hiring, and I suppose legal hiring in general, changed quite a bit after the crash. Will the law economy bounce back to previous hiring levels where more than a handful of regional school grads get biglaw? A lot of people I've talked to say no.

Because someone (intelligently) realized that giving a bunch of 25 year old K-JD's enormous salaries and significant legal responsibilities all will-nilly was not the best business model. Even with a return in the economy, I agree what you have posted and have heard that the Biglaw glory days are a thing of the past (eerily, somewhat similar to medicine).

 

[Gauss44]

A lot if people are there because they didn't decide what to do with their liberal arts degrees and need a few more years to figure things out. If you went to a decent regional law school and put in the same kind of effort most med students do, you'd rise to the top pretty impressively.

I think this is likely.

All people are not equal in every way.

As an aside, I wonder how many pre-meds have compared themselves to the average american? Link here: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/education.html

BigLaw is alive and well. Regarding the previous post, if you go back a few responses and click on my wikipedia link, it shows how much money BigLaw firms bring in every year. They can afford to pay better than almost any other business. Many, if not most, BigLaw firms have financial firms/big banks as their major clients so what impacts the big banks can impact BigLaw to some extent. BigLaw also usually has corporations as major clients. Keep in mind that bankruptcy law did really well back in 2008, 2009. Some attorneys specialize in a couple of different things so that they have plenty of business in a good economy or a bad one. Circulus vitios' pie chart shows which firms are bringing in the most new associates. The chart doesn't show all new hires, just all new associates. I really like that chart. Some firms are increasing their hiring now that the economy is improving.

 

[Law2Doc]

The thing is as I am sure you can attest to, law school curriculum isnt straight forward. It is a lot more subjective than what I assume Medical school education to be like(at least in the first 2 years). Most law professors "hide the ball" and class lecture is the professor more asking questions via Socratic method than giving answers.

There was a saying amongst the class that came before mine "you cant outwork the curve", the sense is that grading in law school tends to be arbitrary outside of those who do no work and finish at the bottom. Point being that a lot of people "work like a first year med student" and finish around median. One kid I know was at the library all the time, never went out, etc. and finished just above median. You do well in law school by knowing your professor, not by knowing the law imo. And I did fairly well my first semester without working very hard. In fact I decided I was going to leave 2 weeks before finals and barely prepared at all and I finished better than the kid at the library all the time who has both a higher GPA and lsat than me.

All I am saying is that law school is much more of a gamble than med school.

Actually almost nobody in law school worked like med students, and those handful that did certainly weren't at the mean. There was some subjectivity in grading but actually a heck of a lot less than in the clinical years of med school. Knowing your professor wouldn't have helped at my school because your entire grade came down to a single end of the year test which was graded blind (no names on the part that went to the professor). Many schools do it that way.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think it would be better to look at typical law outcomes: six figure student loan debt and $50k/year starting salaries.

This point was actually addressed in part a few years back by Atul Gawande in a New Yorker article much better than I'm going to do, but his point is that the average law student doesn't get into med school, so you really need to compare the guys who would have been good enough to choose from both careers to make any sort of meaningful comparison. Only If you do that can you get an apples vs apples comparison. And that's not the person who ends up earning $50k a year. That's the guy who ends up in big law. Because quite frankly if you have the smarts and work ethic to get through med school and residency, you have the smarts and work ethic to end up a heck of a lot further up the food chain than that B-/C+ student who ends up the average law graduate out there.

 

[circulus vitios]

This point was actually addressed in part a few years back by Atul Gawande in a New Yorker article much better than I'm going to do, but his point is that the average law student doesn't get into med school, so you really need to compare the guys who would have been good enough to choose from both careers to make any sort of meaningful comparison. Only If you do that can you get an apples vs apples comparison. And that's not the person who ends up earning $50k a year. That's the guy who ends up in big law. Because quite frankly if you have the smarts and work ethic to get through med school and residency, you have the smarts and work ethic to end up a heck of a lot further up the food chain than that B-/C+ student who ends up the average law graduate out there.

Success in law school, like in med school, may be a function of hard work, but success in the 'real world' is absolutely not a function of hard work. Look at the example Tommyguns linked to. Look at the thousands of hard-working law students at TTT, T2, T1, and T14 schools who don't get big law, or the big law associates who are asked to leave, or the big law associates who stay on but never make partner.

 

[Law2Doc]

Success in law school, like in med school, may be a function of hard work, but success in the 'real world' is absolutely not a function of hard work. Look at the example Tommyguns linked to. Look at the thousands of hard-working law students at TTT, T2, T1, and T14 schools who don't get big law, or the big law associates who are asked to leave, or the big law associates who stay on but never make partner.

Making partner is very different analysis than getting big law. These days law firms err on the side of creating non equity paths for good people who are workhorses but who aren't making enough rain to get a piece of the pie. If you are hard working and smart, they will try to find a way to keep you without giving out of their own pocket. In this respect the smart guy with the med school caliber work ethic still has the upper hand over a Lot of his law school classmates, who will be the ones asked to leave when they don't get partner.But truth of the matter is you may face the same kind of nonequity thing in medicine. Most people end up employees, not partners in medicine as well, and that is truer the bigger the organization you work at. If you end up a non equity "partner" or a "staff attorney" and just earn a salary, you might still make a decent six digit living at big law, not a whole lot different than a lot of doctors working at hospitals make. So yeah, id say if you have the brains and work ethic to get into and through med school, you can have some degree of professional success on either path. It's only when you start making the apples and oranges comparisons that you see that there are a lot of lawyers, those without the brains and work ethic that would have succeeded on other paths, those perhaps who squeaked into law school with a gentleman's C, those who have no clue what happens at the library at closing, who really do have the potential to end up broke and unemployed. But its not right to lump them in with the others when you make your comparisons.

 

[Gauss44]

Medicine you will be employed with great salary after residency, After law school you might be employed and there's a great chance you will be making less than 50k. That's as real as I can keep it.

Sure, if you're a c-student with no experience and no accomplishments.

 

[callcar]

Reason being you did better in philosophy: philosophy is very debatable. Whereas science and math is pretty straight forward. If you like to debate things, then being a lawyer is the job. You can still help people by being a lawyer. Not everyone can afford a lawyer but they still deserve to be defended. That's where people like you could help out

Good luck in your future..

 

[callcar]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmauree...is-the-worst-career-decision-youll-ever-make/
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...isis-for-law-school-grads-deepens.html?pg=all

Quite honestly I agree with this poster. You have to be a pretty darn good lawyer to make top salary. I know a lawyer that graduated from Boston University and they are working for peanuts.

 

[Gauss44]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmauree...is-the-worst-career-decision-youll-ever-make/
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...isis-for-law-school-grads-deepens.html?pg=all

If you are generally an a-student (in law school sometimes the top 5% have lower gpas so I said "in general"), have legal experience, click with interviewers, wrote for the law journal or did well in moot court, have other accomplishments, and live in an urban area, you are unlikely to be unemployed after law school.

The average law student doesn't do all that, or even close.

 

[Gauss44]

Ive needed a doctor countless times, I've never needed a lawyer.

Businesses need lawyers too.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Basically, in the language of realness, what this kid is saying is, you will most likely be broke working as a lawyer, but if you are comfortable with that then go for it.

The services of a physician will always be more in demand than the services or a lawyer. Both have a monopoly on their skills, but physician skills are needed in a greater capacity. Ive needed a doctor countless times, I've never needed a lawyer.

The one thing that law school has going for it is that it is about 100x easier (than medical school) to go for very little, if any, debt. Making 50k isn't the end of the world if you have no loans hanging over you.

 

[circulus vitios]

The one thing that law school has going for it is that it is about 100x easier (than medical school) to go for very little, if any, debt. Making 50k isn't the end of the world if you have no loans hanging over you.

Yeah except those $50k/year ****law jobs will have you working biglaw hours.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Yeah except those $50k/year ****law jobs will have you working biglaw hours.

Yeah, possibly. I was referring more to PD or prosecution jobs. I've been told that they don't have that bad of hours. Of course, you could be stuck doing doc review for the rest of your life, which sounds soul crushing.

 

[Gauss44]

If you have an engineering, finance, or business degree before going to law school (and do everything previously mentioned), you are even more likely to get an awesome job. Another unmentioned perk, is that when you work in business and finance and have the pulse of sectors of the economy, it can help with investing - even if you don't manage your own funds.

 

[Law2Doc]

If you are generally an a-student (in law school sometimes the top 5% have lower gpas so I said "in general"), have legal experience, click with interviewers, wrote for the law journal or did well in moot court, have other accomplishments, and live in an urban area, you are unlikely to be unemployed after law school.

The average law student doesn't do all that, or even close.

But again the average law student wasn't ever the guy who had a shot at med school, or the brains, or the work ethic. You have to compare apples with apples. The guy who actually has a choice between med school and law is the guy who ends up doing fine in law. It's the other guys, with their gentleman's B-/ C+ average, and their lack of focus that end up with the 50k jobs or unemployed. if you look at average you are not doing a fair comparison, because no med student would be average in law (give or take the one or two rare outliers someone can dig up). Take it from someone who has actuallyworked in both fields. It's not apples and apples at the median of each field.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah, possibly. I was referring more to PD or prosecution jobs. I've been told that they don't have that bad of hours. Of course, you could be stuck doing doc review for the rest of your life, which sounds soul crushing.

Prosecutors often choose those jobs for a variety of non monetary reasons, especially political aspirations. So they shouldn't get lumped in with PDs. And FWIW big law associates review a heck of a lot more documents for the average business deal than a person dealing in criminal law ever will.

 

[callcar]

The one thing that law school has going for it is that it is about 100x easier (than medical school) to go for very little, if any, debt. Making 50k isn't the end of the world if you have no loans hanging over you.

I disagree. Lets put some math to it. The poster wants to go to a top 14 law school. The average price of a top 14 law school is.... (sorry if this is long)

#1 Yale University
New Haven, CT
$53,600 per year (full-time) 615
U.S. News Law School Compass
#2 Harvard University
Cambridge, MA
$50,880 per year (full-time) 1,727
#2 Stanford University
Stanford, CA
$50,802 per year (full-time) 575
#4 Columbia University
New York, NY
$55,488 per year (full-time) 1,290
#4 University of Chicago
Chicago, IL
$50,727 per year (full-time) 610
#6 New York University
New York, NY
$51,150 per year (full-time) 1,471
#7 University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA
$53,138 per year (full-time) 776
#7 University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA
$46,400 per year (in-state, full-time); $51,400 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 1,078
#9 University of California​‒​Berkeley
Berkeley, CA
$48,068 per year (in-state, full-time); $52,019 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 856
#9 University of Michigan​‒​Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor, MI
$48,250 per year (in-state, full-time); $51,250 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 1,124
#11 Duke University
Durham, NC
$50,750 per year (full-time) 660
#12 Northwestern University
Chicago, IL
$53,468 per year (full-time) 811
#13 Cornell University
Ithaca, NY
$55,220 per year (full-time) 596
#14 Georgetown University
Washington, DC
$48,835 per year (full-time)

716776 / 14 = $51198 average tuition for top law school. Lets play fair game and only consider post grad in our calculations because both degrees require a BA/BS anyway.

3 years at a top 14 law school x $51198 will roughly set you back $153594.

How can you say the OP will have "if any debt"? Especially for someone who isn't even guaranteed a job. Does this look like "no" loans? To me that sounds like a risky investment. At least us future doctors shelling out $250 will have a guaranteed job and be making enough money to pay off the loans in a matter of years. TheWeelceMan, give me $153,594 right now if that's nothing.TheWeeIceMan is a high roller

Sources: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

 

[Planes2Doc]

But again the average law student wasn't ever the guy who had a shot at med school, or the brains, or the work ethic. You have to compare apples with apples. The guy who actually has a choice between med school and law is the guy who ends up doing fine in law. It's the other guys, with their gentleman's B-/ C+ average, and their lack of focus that end up with the 50k jobs or unemployed. if you look at average you are not doing a fair comparison, because no med student would be average in law (give or take the one or two rare outliers someone can dig up). Take it from someone who has actuallyworked in both fields. It's not apples and apples at the median of each field.

The guy who should have a shot at a US medical school should have a shot at a TOP law school.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I disagree. Lets put some math to it. The poster wants to go to a top 14 law school. The average price of a top 14 law school is.... (sorry if this is long)

#1 Yale University
New Haven, CT
$53,600 per year (full-time) 615
U.S. News Law School Compass
#2 Harvard University
Cambridge, MA
$50,880 per year (full-time) 1,727
#2 Stanford University
Stanford, CA
$50,802 per year (full-time) 575
#4 Columbia University
New York, NY
$55,488 per year (full-time) 1,290
#4 University of Chicago
Chicago, IL
$50,727 per year (full-time) 610
#6 New York University
New York, NY
$51,150 per year (full-time) 1,471
#7 University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA
$53,138 per year (full-time) 776
#7 University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA
$46,400 per year (in-state, full-time); $51,400 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 1,078
#9 University of California​‒​Berkeley
Berkeley, CA
$48,068 per year (in-state, full-time); $52,019 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 856
#9 University of Michigan​‒​Ann Arbor
Ann Arbor, MI
$48,250 per year (in-state, full-time); $51,250 per year (out-of-state, full-time) 1,124
#11 Duke University
Durham, NC
$50,750 per year (full-time) 660
#12 Northwestern University
Chicago, IL
$53,468 per year (full-time) 811
#13 Cornell University
Ithaca, NY
$55,220 per year (full-time) 596
#14 Georgetown University
Washington, DC
$48,835 per year (full-time)

716776 / 14 = $51198 average tuition for top law school. Lets play fair game and only consider post grad in our calculations because both degrees require a BA/BS anyway.

3 years at a top 14 law school x $51198 will roughly set you back $153594.

How can you say the OP will have "if any debt"? Especially for someone who isn't even guaranteed a job. Does this look like "no" loans? To me that sounds like a risky investment. At least us future doctors shelling out $250 will have a guaranteed job and be making enough money to pay off the loans in a matter of years. TheWeelceMan, give me $153,594 right now if that's nothing.TheWeeIceMan is a high roller

Sources: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

I guess I should have been more specific. In general, law schools have much more money to throw around in the form of scholarhips than medical schools. Though I wasn't referring to only the t14, it is not uncommon for students to attend for far lower than sticker price at most of these schools. Outside of the t14, getting scholarhips to cover a huge portion of the COA is not that difficult for a good student (which I assume most people who get into medical school are).

 

[Gauss44]

But again the average law student wasn't ever the guy who had a shot at med school, or the brains, or the work ethic.

My point exactly.

 

[Jerry31xx]

I wouldn't worry too much about the starting late thing, I decided on medical school during the last semester of the year I was planning on graduating, just had to tack on another year at school to cram all those prereq's in and take a gap year.

Also, you should check into employment statistics for those recently graduated with a law degree, I was considering a JD at one point and that definitely decreased my interest.

 

[Instatewaiter]

agree with this. It's a common misconception on this board that only the graduates from the top handful of schools get big law. In fact, your odds are probably better if you are an editor of law review and one of the top students from a regional law school. Meaning firms like to hire the very top guys at the law school across the street almost as much as they like the guy in the top half of the top ten school three states away. Local matters to clients so it matters to firms.

Things have changed a bit recently. Because of the downturn, more pain is being felt with the less prestigious law schools. My wife graduated from a school just below the top tier. Roughly a third of my wife's graduating class did not have a job at graduation and many of these people didn't have one still. Even the top people in the class were seeing that the top firms weren't hiring like the once did and many of the local jobs were going to the strong law schools... granted my state was an abberation having 5 first tier law schools in the state.

 

[pre med 2014]

Medicine you will be employed with great salary after residency, After law school you might be employed and there's a great chance you will be making less than 50k. That's as real as I can keep it.

keepin' it real right hur

 

[John 117]

Medicine or law? That's like choosing between living in NYC vs some frozen radioactive wasteland in the corner of Alaska. Easy choice.

Pick medicine and don't look back.

 

[noleknight16]

As someone who attended law school in Fall 2012 and decided against it and to pursue medicine, I can say with full confidence GO MEDICINE.

I went to a Tier 1 law school for a semester. It was an okay experience. It was a nice intellectual environment. Students weren't very cutthroat, but I'd assume at a T-14 it can get pretty heated . I think the most frustrating part is how arbitrary law school grading is. There's one test at the end in most classes and it's really just a matter of how the teacher feels when he or she is grading your paper. I ended up with pretty good, not amazing grades. I did earn some A's though, which are coveted in law school. One company.... ONE came to on campus interviewing. This is a fricking tier 1 law school.

So it came down to whether or not I was okay taking out 150k in loans for likely a 35k government job.

Now, T-14 schools are a different story than Tier 1. You have a ~50-70% chance of going Big Law just by matriculating. However, as others have pointed out, 90% of those going Big Law will get abused for 5 years and tossed to the curb or crack under the pressure. The other 10% will get partner.

Medicine, which certainly has it flaws, gives me no doubt I'll be at least helping people live a better life. With law, I was wondering if the goal was to help or just tie two companies in court a long time to rack up billable hours. Combine it with the fact the law market is crashing (even big law is feeling the effects), and I have no issues going back to a university and starting on my bios and chems.