Lawyers are Doctors too!

[RedSHIFT]

JD okay. lawyers are starting to want to be referred to as Dr. lol. So when do we let lawyers wear the white coat too?

and don't give me this bull **** that lawyers are smart too. in 1970 the supreme court ruled that a tomato was a vegetable because it was served in salads and not sweet. and aren't they supposed to be the smartest of the lawyer bunch?

i personally will never refer to a lawyer as a doctor unless he has a PhD, MD, or has the terminal law degree in his field. JD? u must be crazy.

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[Elbowstoopointy]

JD okay. lawyers are starting to want to be referred to as Dr. lol. So when do we let lawyers wear the white coat too?

and don't give me this bull **** that lawyers are smart too. in 1970 the supreme court ruled that a tomato was a vegetable because it was served in salads and not sweet. and aren't they supposed to be the smartest of the lawyer bunch?

i personally will never refer to a lawyer as a doctor unless he has a PhD, MD, or has the terminal law degree in his field. JD? u must be crazy.

lol @ law students comparing themselves to med students.....they don't even have real tests LOL.

IMO its dumb people say "Lawyer and Doctor" as the elite professions....ENGINEERS are by far smarter and more badass than lawyers.

 

[2012mdc]

lol @ law students comparing themselves to med students.....they don't even have real tests LOL.

IMO its dumb people say "Lawyer and Doctor" as the elite professions....ENGINEERS are by far smarter and more badass than lawyers.

As a whole probably so. But the elite lawyers are pretty badass too.

I took some high level engineering classes in UG and got my assed kicked. Definitely conceptually more difficult than anything I've seen in medical school

 

[RedSHIFT]

As a whole probably so. But the elite lawyers are pretty badass too.

I took some high level engineering classes in UG and got my assed kick. Definitely conceptually more difficult than anything I've seen in medical school

here here. I agree...PhDs are on the same field as MD's and some I admire even more than MD's (engineers, inventors, people who hold Patents).

After 3 long hard years at Law School, I'm kind of curious how they are addressed when the walk the stage at graduation. Do they call them Dr. so and so when they get their diploma?

 

[FunnyCurrent]

JD okay. lawyers are starting to want to be referred to as Dr. lol. So when do we let lawyers wear the white coat too?

and don't give me this bull **** that lawyers are smart too. in 1970 the supreme court ruled that a tomato was a vegetable because it was served in salads and not sweet. and aren't they supposed to be the smartest of the lawyer bunch?

i personally will never refer to a lawyer as a doctor unless he has a PhD, MD, or has the terminal law degree in his field. JD? u must be crazy.

The JD use to be masters degree. It is not a terminal degree.

/end thread

 

[Isoprop]

man it's ridiculous how some people in medicine care so much about rank, status, and title.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

man it's ridiculous how some people in medicine care so much about rank, status, and title.

I first learned that the JD was not a terminal degree while eavesdropping on some academic SJD's refusing to call a new faculty member a doctor even though she requested it. The bigger fatter one kept saying, "I will not call her a doctor. A J.D. is NOT a terminal degree." I couldn't help but smile.

We're not the only ones who care about status. Everyone wants to be called a doctor probably because they think it will command the same awesomeness of being a REAL (by public perception) doctor.

 

[yamaraja808]

here here. I agree...PhDs are on the same field as MD's and some I admire even more than MD's (engineers, inventors, people who hold Patents).

After 3 long hard years at Law School, I'm kind of curious how they are addressed when the walk the stage at graduation. Do they call them Dr. so and so when they get their diploma?

The announcer just says their names and they walk of stage to get their diplomas (my friend got a JD at my university that is how I know). They are still Mr. and Ms/Miss/Mrs. fill in the blank.

 

[Instatewaiter]

JD okay. lawyers are starting to want to be referred to as Dr. lol. So when do we let lawyers wear the white coat too?

and don't give me this bull **** that lawyers are smart too. in 1970 the supreme court ruled that a tomato was a vegetable because it was served in salads and not sweet. and aren't they supposed to be the smartest of the lawyer bunch?

i personally will never refer to a lawyer as a doctor unless he has a PhD, MD, or has the terminal law degree in his field. JD? u must be crazy.

Ok, stop.

This is a rarity. My wife is a lawyer and most of her friends are as well. No lawyer goes by doctor unless they are a huge douche... and then the other lawyers make fun of them for being such a douche. Now some do go for more training and do get a doctorate (see below)

The JD use to be masters degree. It is not a terminal degree.

/end thread

The JD first was a bachelors degree (just like an MD used to be) and often is in other countries. A JD is technically a doctorate but if you want to go for advanced training the next level is a masters degree and then a doctorate (despite already having a 'doctorate'). Lawyers know this and rarely use the title doctor unless they have done the masters and doctorate after their JD or if they are a massive toolbox.

 

[surftheiop]

Who cares?

If someone wants to be called doctor it doesn't bother me. Although I think esquire is the most cool of all education titles so if I were a lawyer I would be always signing that behind my name.

 

[Barcu]

Who cares?

If someone wants to be called doctor it doesn't bother me. Although I think esquire is the most cool of all education titles so if I were a lawyer I would be always signing that behind my name.

Agreed. Esquire is a way better way to go.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

When I use to work at the ED, this one history phd from my school comes in for something (i don't remember). Anyways, the EP introduces himself and before he can launch into the history the phd interrupts:

phd: "it's doctor, I'm a doctor"
EP: "oh really what specialty"
phd: "history"
Awkward pause
EP: "Oh... Well Doctor ___ what bring you here today?"

I thought it was really funny

 

[RedSHIFT]

Agreed. Esquire is a way better way to go.

Esquire, I ve seen people read that and pronounce as Esqueer.

You know i cared for a couple hours.... but now If a lawyer wants to be called a doctor just let em have it.

 

[2012mdc]

Who cares?

If someone wants to be called doctor it doesn't bother me. Although I think esquire is the most cool of all education titles so if I were a lawyer I would be always signing that behind my name.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFZFHzf2d8[/YOUTUBE]

It doesn't bother me, I just find it funny

 

[GellaBella]

So I completed a PhD last year in Microbiology and Molecular genetics. It took me 5.5 years and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

I'll admit, it was a little annoying when I went to a college get together with friends and this girl who had graduated with her JD was like "I guess I'm the first doctor in our group!!!"

I didn't say anything because she is my friend, but 3 years of law school with summers to at least try different things is much MUCH different than 5.5 years of 50+ hours/week, 52 weeks/year bench work for a PhD.

She's like a pilates instructor now, but everytime I see her she still likes to mention how she got her "doctorate" first.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

Maybe we can just let them have the doctor thing... They need it. Some of them are having a very difficult time securing jobs. For example:

http://www.newser.com/story/120160/...t-find-a-job-sues-college-for-50-million.html

 

[mjl1717]

As far as I'm concerned a lawyer is a liar.

Maybe its me, but many of them just don't seem to have any class.
(Sometimes they won't even answer simple questions)

 

[surftheiop]

As far as I'm concerned a lawyer is a liar.

Maybe its me, but many of them just don't seem to have any class.
(Sometimes they won't even answer simple questions)

As one of the peds attendings on SDN says:

"Lawyers are like pit-bulls, you think the world would be better off without them, but when you are wronged or threatened, you want the biggest/meanest one the world has to offer"

 

[DrIBProfen]

Just so happens that I have a JD . . . under a bunch of latin my degree is a "Juris Doctoris" (other schools call it a Juris Doctorate)

To set the record straight, a JD is not a terminal degree. In fact, law degrees used to just be a bachelors (LLB) and before that you just apprenticed and hung out a shingle.

Further, practically nobody in our profession calls themselves doctors. But I will admit that a very, very small minority do refer to themselves as doctors and state ethics committees (run by lawyers) have actually deemed this to be okay within a certain scope. Socially, however, if one lawyer called himself doctor in front of other lawyers, he'd be laughed out of whatever law firm, court room or back alley he/she then occupied.

To clear up a final misconception. Not all lawyers sue people. The best analogy I have would be to claim that "all doctors just want to slice you open". Broadly, there are two categories: transactional and litigation. The latter sues in court, whereas the former gets deals done. Often you're one or the other, but you can be both. I'm a transactional guy. If my client ends up in court, something went wrong and need my work to a litigator.

Finally, if you think all lawyers should be eliminated, I recommend you re-read Shakespeare's Henry VI. Not all, but most

 

[clifftacopter]

I don't get all the lawyer hate. "Oh, they went to law school. It was ONLY three years. Hurr durr." Law school is pretty tough, too. I have a number of friends whom I consider very bright people that are currently in law school and it definitely kicks their butts. Medical school doesn't have a monopoly on being difficult and time-consuming. Lawyers can provide a valuable service to society, too. Yeah, some of them can be scum-bags and leech-like, but that doesn't represent the majority of them. Likewise, there are plenty of doctors who are jerks (and liars!), don't care about patients, build their business around vanity procedures, etc.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

I don't get all the lawyer hate. "Oh, they went to law school. It was ONLY three years. Hurr durr." Law school is pretty tough, too. I have a number of friends whom I consider very bright people that are currently in law school and it definitely kicks their butts. Medical school doesn't have a monopoly on being difficult and time-consuming. Lawyers can provide a valuable service to society, too. Yeah, some of them can be scum-bags and leech-like, but that doesn't represent the majority of them. Likewise, there are plenty of doctors who are jerks (and liars!), don't care about patients, build their business around vanity procedures, etc.

Hmmm. This part of the analogy makes me hmmmm.


Because if you provide a valuable service that is anything less than treating an indigent patient who can't pay then you're a scumbag doctor? Right? mmmkay

 

[mjl1717]

I don't get all the lawyer hate. "Oh, they went to law school. It was ONLY three years. Hurr durr." Law school is pretty tough, too. I have a number of friends whom I consider very bright people that are currently in law school and it definitely kicks their butts. Medical school doesn't have a monopoly on being difficult and time-consuming. Lawyers can provide a valuable service to society, too. Yeah, some of them can be scum-bags and leech-like, but that doesn't represent the majority of them. Likewise, there are plenty of doctors who are jerks (and liars!), don't care about patients, build their business around vanity procedures, etc.

A good physician will attempt to tell his patients how to prevent disease.
(avoid diabetes, lower cholesterol, don't smoke etc.)

Lawyers don't prevent anything..(which is probably one of the reasons why the average physician makes more then the average lawyer)

Physicians are MUCH more under the microscope!!!!!! The liar I mean lawyer may say "sue the doctor" , sue the hospital [Put a lawyer under the microscope his refrain may be "Ill sue you"]

Also even with vanity procedures the dermatologist can still attempt hair growth, remove nevi, remove early stage cancer, and do much needed procedures..(he is not a jerk)

As stated the only time lawyers are really needed is if someone gets in DSAT (deep s--- and trouble)

*Lawyers are occasionally benign when they help someone write a will, help someone apply for bankruptcy or help the elderly apply for medicaid..

**But I do notice that elite lawyers are usually good negotiators...

Example-John Edwards? (where do you start with this guy?)

 

[RedSHIFT]

if law ceased to exist lawyers would be irrelevant.
if men were to be immortal, doctors would be irrelevant.

which is more likely?

btw. when i was 16 i got arrested for fighting in a movie theater. my lawyer told so many lies before the judge in my favor that i thought he was going to be arrested for perjury ( i was an idiot when i was 16). the point is that i had to spend 2 k on a lawyer because the judge was a tool and didn't realize that kids fight when they are young and stupid.

i just remember my lawyer driving me to my mom's house in his BMW 7 series after he lied his ass off about my actions in the theater....i don't know, i would have rather been found guilty than lying. scum bag profession.

 

[mjl1717]

if law ceased to exist lawyers would be irrelevant.
if men were to be immortal, doctors would be irrelevant.

which is more likely?

btw. when i was 16 i got arrested for fighting in a movie theater. my lawyer told so many lies before the judge in my favor that i thought he was going to be arrested for perjury ( i was an idiot when i was 16). the point is that i had to spend 2 k on a lawyer because the judge was a tool and didn't realize that kids fight when they are young and stupid.

i just remember my lawyer driving me to my mom's house in his BMW 7 series after he lied his ass off about my actions in the theater....i don't know, i would have rather been found guilty than lying. scum bag profession.

But even if men where immortal..They could still come to the physician to vent right?
You have good ethics and integrity.

 

[searun]

After you guys make bank and invest wisely, you will appreciate the tax lawyers and the lawyers who specialize in estate planning....or at least your spouse and children will appreciate these attorneys after the perfunctory period of mourning following the obligatory spreading of your ashes at sea or under the walnut tree in your backyard.

You will also appreciate the lawyer who successfully defends your honor and wins the medical malpractice lawsuit that was filed against you.

Basically it is like politicians....everyone hates politicians but most people like the guy who represents them.

Eventually everyone of you will probably need a lawyer at some point in your life and it is likely that you will be a fan of the guy who is in your corner.

 

[surftheiop]

A good physician will attempt to tell his patients how to prevent disease.
(avoid diabetes, lower cholesterol, don't smoke etc.)

Lawyers don't prevent anything..(which is probably one of the reasons why the average physician makes more then the average lawyer)

Physicians are MUCH more under the microscope!!!!!! The liar I mean lawyer may say "sue the doctor" , sue the hospital [Put a lawyer under the microscope his refrain may be "Ill sue you"]

Also even with vanity procedures the dermatologist can still attempt hair growth, remove nevi, remove early stage cancer, and do much needed procedures..(he is not a jerk)

As stated the only time lawyers are really needed is if someone gets in DSAT (deep s--- and trouble)

*Lawyers are occasionally benign when they help someone write a will, help someone apply for bankruptcy or help the elderly apply for medicaid..

**But I do notice that elite lawyers are usually good negotiators...

Example-John Edwards? (where do you start with this guy?)

Have you seriously never heard of lawyers doing risk management, the whole concept of that is preventing bad things from happening

Additionally on a more fundamental level, lawyers prevent all kinds of terrible stuff from happening everyday because people know if they wrong someone a lawyer can hold them accountable.

 

[mjl1717]

Have you seriously never heard of lawyers doing risk management, the whole concept of that is preventing bad things from happening

Additionally on a more fundamental level, lawyers prevent all kinds of terrible stuff from happening everyday because people know if they wrong someone a lawyer can hold them accountable.

Ok.. You got me, but that does'nt mean I like them..

 

[kaleerkalut]

Just so happens that I have a JD . . . under a bunch of latin my degree is a "Juris Doctoris" (other schools call it a Juris Doctorate)

To set the record straight, a JD is not a terminal degree. In fact, law degrees used to just be a bachelors (LLB) and before that you just apprenticed and hung out a shingle.

Further, practically nobody in our profession calls themselves doctors. But I will admit that a very, very small minority do refer to themselves as doctors and state ethics committees (run by lawyers) have actually deemed this to be okay within a certain scope. Socially, however, if one lawyer called himself doctor in front of other lawyers, he'd be laughed out of whatever law firm, court room or back alley he/she then occupied.

To clear up a final misconception. Not all lawyers sue people. The best analogy I have would be to claim that "all doctors just want to slice you open". Broadly, there are two categories: transactional and litigation. The latter sues in court, whereas the former gets deals done. Often you're one or the other, but you can be both. I'm a transactional guy. If my client ends up in court, something went wrong and need my work to a litigator.

Finally, if you think all lawyers should be eliminated, I recommend you re-read Shakespeare's Henry VI. Not all, but most

What is the terminal degree in law? Thanks

 

[michaelrack]

The JD first was a bachelors degree (just like an MD used to be) and often is in other countries. A JD is technically a doctorate but if you want to go for advanced training the next level is a masters degree and then a doctorate (despite already having a 'doctorate'). Lawyers know this and rarely use the title doctor unless they have done the masters and doctorate after their JD or if they are a massive toolbox.

I'm too lazy to look this up on wikipedia, so can someone tell me the names of the master/doc degrees for lawyers?

 

[surftheiop]

I'm too lazy to look this up on wikipedia, so can someone tell me the names of the master/doc degrees for lawyers?

I think "Master of Laws" is one step above JD, then I think you can get some sort of PhD for academic law

 

[richse]

JD okay. lawyers are starting to want to be referred to as Dr. lol. So when do we let lawyers wear the white coat too?

and don't give me this bull **** that lawyers are smart too. in 1970 the supreme court ruled that a tomato was a vegetable because it was served in salads and not sweet. and aren't they supposed to be the smartest of the lawyer bunch?

i personally will never refer to a lawyer as a doctor unless he has a PhD, MD, or has the terminal law degree in his field. JD? u must be crazy.

Wow, this thread is ridiculous. Historically, the only real doctors are the Ph.D.s. Clinicians were not originally doctors just as lawyers were not originally doctors. A lot of posters in this thread need to do some research on the history of the title Doctor. It's just plain sad to see anyone ragging on lawyers for this. They have as much right to use the title doctor as any MD/DO.

A little research would be especially helpful to the person who posted the "funny" story about a patient with a Ph.D. in History telling the EP to call them doctor. I think you'll be surprised to see that, as I stated above, the patient historically had more right to be called Doctor than the EP.

 

[RedSHIFT]

Wow, this thread is ridiculous. Historically, the only real doctors are the Ph.D.s. Clinicians were not originally doctors just as lawyers were not originally doctors. A lot of posters in this thread need to do some research on the history of the title Doctor. It's just plain sad to see anyone ragging on lawyers for this. They have as much right to use the title doctor as any MD/DO.

A little research would be especially helpful to the person who posted the "funny" story about a patient with a Ph.D. in History telling the EP to call them doctor. I think you'll be surprised to see that, as I stated above, the patient historically had more right to be called Doctor than the EP.

um you should of kept on reading on the thread. i said 3 hours later that i didn't give a **** anymore and that lawyers could be called doctors if they wanted to.

 

[McLovinMD]

Originally Posted by richse
Wow, this thread is ridiculous. Historically, the only real doctors are the Ph.D.s. Clinicians were not originally doctors just as lawyers were not originally doctors. A lot of posters in this thread need to do some research on the history of the title Doctor. It's just plain sad to see anyone ragging on lawyers for this. They have as much right to use the title doctor as any MD/DO.

A little research would be especially helpful to the person who posted the "funny" story about a patient with a Ph.D. in History telling the EP to call them doctor. I think you'll be surprised to see that, as I stated above, the patient historically had more right to be called Doctor than the EP.

Originally Posted by richse
Wow, this thread is ridiculous. Historically, the only real doctors are the Ph.D.s. Clinicians were not originally doctors just as lawyers were not originally doctors. A lot of posters in this thread need to do some research on the history of the title Doctor. It's just plain sad to see anyone ragging on lawyers for this. They have as much right to use the title doctor as any MD/DO.

A little research would be especially helpful to the person who posted the "funny" story about a patient with a Ph.D. in History telling the EP to call them doctor. I think you'll be surprised to see that, as I stated above, the patient historically had more right to be called Doctor than the EP.

"Wow, this thread is ridiculous. Historically, the only real doctors are the Ph.D.s. Clinicians were not originally doctors just as lawyers were not originally doctors. A lot of posters in this thread need to do some research on the history of the title Doctor. It's just plain sad to see anyone ragging on lawyers for this. They have as much right to use the title doctor as any MD/DO.

A little research would be especially helpful to the person who posted the "funny" story about a patient with a Ph.D. in History telling the EP to call them doctor. I think you'll be surprised to see that, as I stated above, the patient historically had more right to be called Doctor than the EP."

Please tell me you see the fundamental flaw in basing rights on historical precedent...unless you still consider educated women to be "witches" and a black man to be 3/5th's of a white man.

 

[Zuerst]

funny... i go out of my way to NOT introduce myself as a doctor.

 

[Morsetlis]

I thought medicine was considered a lowly profession until Observations on the Duties and Offices of a Physician and on the Method of Prosecuting Enquiries in Philosophy (1770) by John Gregory. The word "doctor" comes from Latin docere, to teach. It dates back to the rise of the university.

Which came first, the Lawyer or the Physician?

If the OP did not care about historical significance, then lawyers should be able to wear white coats (or whichever colors they want), and physicians should be able to wear barrister wigs.

 

[richse]

Please tell me you see the fundamental flaw in basing rights on historical precedent...unless you still consider educated women to be "witches" and a black man to be 3/5th's of a white man.

There are many many fair and just things that are still based on historical precedent and the fact that you can find an example of a historical injustice doesn't mean that all precedents are invalid. I have never seen anything that suggested lawyers should not still be considered doctors as they always have been. It's not a compelling argument that you and the OP just don't think they deserve the title.

 

[McLovinMD]

There are many many fair and just things that are still based on historical precedent and the fact that you can find an example of a historical injustice doesn't mean that all precedents are invalid. I have never seen anything that suggested lawyers should not still be considered doctors as they always have been. It's not a compelling argument that you and the OP just don't think they deserve the title.

Never said I don't think they deserve the title. Was simply pointing out why an argument for or against something shouldn't be based on historical precedent alone. If you can provide an argument based on actual merit then that would be valid. And no, I can not provide an argument against them. Personally I don't care what anyone calls themselves, and if I did I wouldn't claim to know enough about their training and fund of knowledge to judge whether they deserved the title.

 

[DrIBProfen]

What is the terminal degree in law? Thanks

There is another degree called an SJD (Scientiae Juridicae Doctor) and it's a research oriented degree that is functionally equivalent to a PhD.

So really you can earn two doctorate level degrees within the field of law, a JD and an SJD. The former is what all lawyers get while the latter is extremely rare and often sought by foreign students and a very few academically inclined lawyers. SJDs are very rare and the vast majority of law professors don't have one or need one.

A good physician will attempt to tell his patients how to prevent disease.
(avoid diabetes, lower cholesterol, don't smoke etc.)

Lawyers don't prevent anything..(which is probably one of the reasons why the average physician makes more then the average lawyer)

Physicians are MUCH more under the microscope!!!!!! The liar I mean lawyer may say "sue the doctor" , sue the hospital [Put a lawyer under the microscope his refrain may be "Ill sue you"]

If you think lawyers don't prevent anything you know absolutely nothing about the practice of law. Seriously, read any contract written by any attorney.

A large part of my job as an attorney is to explain to clients how to minimize their legal and economic exposure and then draft and execute documents to that effect.

As for the rest of your post, the level of ignorance borders on intentional.

I think "Master of Laws" is one step above JD, then I think you can get some sort of PhD for academic law

In addition to the two doctorates you can get in law, there is also a masters called an LLM. This is usually a more focused "specialization" of sorts and is most common (and important) for tax attorneys but is available in areas such as patent, urban development, etc.