Learning from Radiology job market?

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ak6819

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It was not that long ago, maybe ~2-3years, that the Radiology forum was filled with negative posts about a horrible job market. Now, however, I'm seeing reports both from friends and on the message boards that the job market has taken a pretty sharp rebound and things are looking good for now at least.

I'm wondering, how have things changed so rapidly, what can be learned from their job market fiasco, and can any of that be related to the current situation in radiation oncology?

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No. There is still secular growth in imaging demand.

Radiology does not have an issue like the transformation of early stage breast and prostate to hypofractionation (and observation, in some cases), nor have they had their residency slots expand as quickly over the last decade
 
How was it possible for their job market to rebound so quickly?
 
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The norm is now for every radiology resident to do a fellowship prior to starting their job, right?. Like the 4 years they have during residency doesn't make them good enough to go work as an attending, they need extra training in a subsite that they should have already learned during their 4 years of residency.

Is that what we're willing to accept as a solution? Have people doing fellowships so they can go be an attending in private practice and treat prostate/breast all day?
 
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Is that what we're willing to accept as a solution? Have people doing fellowships so they can go be an attending in private practice and treat prostate/breast all day?

It's not quite the same. The view on fellowships is different in this field (basically questionable for pp unless you trained at a deficient program) and none of them are accredited.

The only way I see that happening is if, with this unfettered expansion in residency slots, more marginal programs keep coming on line with lower quality to the point where fellowships are expected for necessary training
 
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The field of radiology is so wide that some are sufficiently different from general radiology and are not considered to be fully taught during residency.

For example, most academic residents do not get sufficient training in IR to safely handle PP IR all by themselves. They maybe able to do 95% of the cases but fixing complications or high end cases belong solely to fellowship trained IR. Same thing with neuroradiology or high end cardiothoracic stuff. Many fellowships are also accredited by the ACGME. The only thing equivalent to an ACGME fellowship in radonc as far as “new skills learned” are probably proton and peds, I would imagine.
 
I think there could be an argument made for brachytherapy fellowship. Most residents don't get enough of it...especially prostate.
 
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I think there could be an argument made for brachytherapy fellowship. Most residents don't get enough of it...especially prostate.
Agreed, with the data on high-risk prostate coming out, as well as the possibility of bundles on the horizon, prostate brachy may be making a resurgence soon

I know ABR/ABS had talk about doing something with a brachy sub-certificate which I don't think panned out. Interstitial GYN brachy/syed implants also necessary for some locally-advanced GYN, and I bet a lot of places don't get enough of that either.
 
The norm is now for every radiology resident to do a fellowship prior to starting their job, right?. Like the 4 years they have during residency doesn't make them good enough to go work as an attending, they need extra training in a subsite that they should have already learned during their 4 years of residency.

Is that what we're willing to accept as a solution? Have people doing fellowships so they can go be an attending in private practice and treat prostate/breast all day?

I agree that I don't think further extending training and adding fellowships is the solution (as is the case for some other specialties such as radiology).

I also question whether or not adding 1-2 years of extra training is really what caused a turnaround in the radiology market, are there other factors we should consider? I'm sure it's complicated and no one really knows. I feel like just a few years ago the radiology job market looked horrible (see a 2013 article in JACR "Radiology Residency Spots Should Be Drastically and Immediately Reduced"), and this year all of a sudden things are looking much better. And it's not like radiology has cut it's residency slots, with a ~35% increase since 2001, granted that's much less than radiation oncology's increase.
 
I agree that I don't think further extending training and adding fellowships is the solution (as is the case for some other specialties such as radiology).

I also question whether or not adding 1-2 years of extra training is really what caused a turnaround in the radiology market, are there other factors we should consider? I'm sure it's complicated and no one really knows. I feel like just a few years ago the radiology job market looked horrible (see a 2013 article in JACR "Radiology Residency Spots Should Be Drastically and Immediately Reduced"), and this year all of a sudden things are looking much better. And it's not like radiology has cut it's residency slots, with a ~35% increase since 2001, granted that's much less than radiation oncology's increase.

Increased utilization with more PAs/NPs and more ubiquitous use of imaging for every little thing as people become more and more defensive and assembly line patients more is my guess.

For community Rad-onc, that seems to be decreasing as has been discussed extensively.

It's not quite the same. The view on fellowships is different in this field (basically questionable for pp unless you trained at a deficient program) and none of them are accredited.

The only way I see that happening is if, with this unfettered expansion in residency slots, more marginal programs keep coming on line with lower quality to the point where fellowships are expected for necessary training

I agree with that, but what if ACGME accredited them, and there were fellowships in say breast? Prior to explosion of radiology fellowships, were radiology residents not being trained sufficiently in reading mammograms to go practice as an attending?

The field of radiology is so wide that some are sufficiently different from general radiology and are not considered to be fully taught during residency.

For example, most academic residents do not get sufficient training in IR to safely handle PP IR all by themselves. They maybe able to do 95% of the cases but fixing complications or high end cases belong solely to fellowship trained IR. Same thing with neuroradiology or high end cardiothoracic stuff. Many fellowships are also accredited by the ACGME. The only thing equivalent to an ACGME fellowship in radonc as far as “new skills learned” are probably proton and peds, I would imagine.

To me, the process of anything interventional does make a fellowship make sense. Including neurointerventional. Corollary in Rad-onc would be brachytherapy (procedural) unfortunately.

I'm not sure what is learned in a breast imaging fellowship that isn't learned during radiology residency.

I think there could be an argument made for brachytherapy fellowship. Most residents don't get enough of it...especially prostate.

Then perhaps there should be minimum requirements for PSI for all residents in residency. Increasing ACGME requirements for non-basic EBRT (SRS/SBRT/Brachy) would help at least stem further residency expansion.

I suppose the alternative is that if you wanna do brachy you have to do a fellowship, which seems silly to me, cause most brachy folks are already making less in terms of RVUs than those doing H&N/Lung/Breast. The prospect of doing a fellowship to earn less money isn't 100% foreign in medicine, but usually there's some benefit (lifestyle). IMO all that would lead to is further decreases in utilization of brachy then there already is, which objectively negatively affects clinical outcomes.
 
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I agree with that, but what if ACGME accredited them, and there were fellowships in say breast? Prior to explosion of radiology fellowships, were radiology residents not being trained sufficiently in reading mammograms to go practice as an attending?

To me, the process of anything interventional does make a fellowship make sense. Including neurointerventional. Corollary in Rad-onc would be brachytherapy (procedural) unfortunately.

I'm not sure what is learned in a breast imaging fellowship that isn't learned during radiology residency.
There's been a lot of change in recent breast imaging with tomosynthesis, MRI, and soon-to-be contrast-enhanced mammography. Soon 2D-alone mammography will be obsolete, as the newer tomography machines will synthesize 2D views in the relentless charge for dose-reduction. These look different and people will need to retrain. Several of these have come about during my residency (I'm a PGY4). Since we have to pick our fellowships during R3, some people will realize they want extra training in a changing field 1-2 years from now and will do something like mammo.

Arguably, the greatest utility of the breast fellowship is the procedural experience with Tomosynthesis/MR/US guided biopsy and MagSeed localization.

However, I agree that the resident case minimums for RRC/ACGME are too low and should be revised upward for Radiology. Our program almost hits all of them by the end of R1...
 
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The way I'm reading the current literature, there is a growing movement to cut down on unnessesary breast CA screening and related imaging.

There's been a lot of change in recent breast imaging with tomosynthesis, MRI, and soon-to-be contrast-enhanced mammography. Soon 2D-alone mammography will be obsolete, as the newer tomography machines will synthesize 2D views in the relentless charge for dose-reduction. These look different and people will need to retrain. Several of these have come about during my residency (I'm a PGY4). Since we have to pick our fellowships during R3, some people will realize they want extra training in a changing field 1-2 years from now and will do something like mammo.

Arguably, the greatest utility of the breast fellowship is the procedural experience with Tomosynthesis/MR/US guided biopsy and MagSeed localization.

However, I agree that the resident case minimums for RRC/ACGME are too low and should be revised upward for Radiology. Our program almost hits all of them by the end of R1...
 
There's been a lot of change in recent breast imaging with tomosynthesis, MRI, and soon-to-be contrast-enhanced mammography. Soon 2D-alone mammography will be obsolete, as the newer tomography machines will synthesize 2D views in the relentless charge for dose-reduction. These look different and people will need to retrain. Several of these have come about during my residency (I'm a PGY4). Since we have to pick our fellowships during R3, some people will realize they want extra training in a changing field 1-2 years from now and will do something like mammo.

Arguably, the greatest utility of the breast fellowship is the procedural experience with Tomosynthesis/MR/US guided biopsy and MagSeed localization.

However, I agree that the resident case minimums for RRC/ACGME are too low and should be revised upward for Radiology. Our program almost hits all of them by the end of R1...

This is the equivalent of current Rad Onc residents requiring 'fellowships' in IMRT/SRS/SBRT. Realistically the people who need additional training are people with 25 years of attending experience who have not kept up with changing technologies. Guess who isn't going to be doing 'fellowships' to make up for supposed knowledge shortages?
 
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The way I'm reading the current literature, there is a growing movement to cut down on unnessesary breast CA screening and related imaging.

Define what’s unnecessary. Screening creates mortality improvement but it’s too expensive for society. Detractor argue that screening create anxiety and therefore isn’t worth the mortality improvement. I can’t make this up
 
You may be surprised to learn that it is now argued that clinical stage I invasive breast cancer in elderly is clinically insignificant.

Define what’s unnecessary. Screening creates mortality improvement but it’s too expensive for society. Detractor argue that screening create anxiety and therefore isn’t worth the mortality improvement. I can’t make this up
 
You may be surprised to learn that it is now argued that clinical stage I invasive breast cancer in elderly is clinically insignificant.

Like let it go completely untreated? Explain further.
 
Lumpectomy alone, without radiation to the remaining breast, and adjuvant oral anti estrogen therapy is a standard option for women over 70 with stage I hormone receptor positive breast cancer

The poster prior to that mentioned screening. If you are going to treat, then screening does something. He said that clinical stage I breast cancer was clinically silent in the elderly, not that it needed no adjuvant treatment. Further posters, please read prior portion of thread before contributing trifling answer.
 
Lumpectomy alone, without radiation to the remaining breast, and adjuvant oral anti estrogen therapy is a standard option for women over 70 with stage I hormone receptor positive breast cancer

Which you won’t find without imaging. Sounds like imaging changes the management for this disease.
 
What would YOU recommend for your mother, wife, or daughter?

Not to go to doctors that don't read properly?

I'm curious to hear data regarding leaving stage I breast cancer untreated in the elderly.
And, if you don't screen patients, how do you know they are stage I?
Would be remarkable to just guess by looking at someone that they have stage I disease. But there are really impressive clinicians in this group that do their own biopsies and diagnosis incredible things.
 
May be a shocker for some, but data are pretty robust: finding screen-detected stage I cancers does not decrease cancer-specific mortality.

Autier P; Boniol, Magali; Koechlin A; Pizot C; Boniol, Mathieu. Effectiveness of and overdiagnosis from mammography screening in the Netherlands: population based study. BMJ. 2017;359:j5224. Effectiveness of and overdiagnosis from mammography screening in the Netherlands: population based study.

Bleyer A, Welch HG. Effect of three decades of screening mammography on breast-cancer incidence. N Engl J Med. 2012;367:1998-2005.


Like let it go completely untreated? Explain further.
 
A retrospective, population based study that does not have a control and interventional arm is robust and reveals we shouldn't treat stage I breast cancer? I can see the argument to consider not screening the elderly. But, in a patient with diagnosed cancer... that is apples and spacestations.

People are right. Research in this field is weak. Probably because people don't know what and how to answer questions.
 
You are a fast reader to so quickly judge 2 well-conducted studies published in BMJ and NJEM. These data are supported by similar work in the US. We should treat diagnosed breast cancer because there is no good way to tell which ones will metastasize. But we should not be looking for them in the first place. Screening mammography indications are shrinking and will continue to do so.

A retrospective, population based study that does not have a control and interventional arm is robust and reveals we shouldn't treat stage I breast cancer? I can see the argument to consider not screening the elderly. But, in a patient with diagnosed cancer... that is apples and spacestations.

People are right. Research in this field is weak. Probably because people don't know what and how to answer questions.
 
I'm not understanding. Are you saying that if you discover a stage I breast cancer in an elderly woman that it is appropriate to not treat them? Because I don't think either of those studies says that.
 
Back to my initial post, screening mammography is a futile intervention for a large proportion of screened Americans. It is what data show. Once that knowledge sinks in deeper, demand for fancy mammo machines and radiologists will drop.

I'm not understanding. Are you saying that if you discover a stage I breast cancer in an elderly woman that it is appropriate to not treat them? Because I don't think either of those studies says that.
 
Whether screening -NOT JUST IN THE ELDERLY- is useful or not is the subject of an editorial every couple of years in the NEJM, usually casting doubt on any benefits. Wouldnt surprise me if elderley luminal A breast cancer just like G6 (which apparently may not have metatstatic potential) prostate cancer, and 20 years from now these low grade neoplasms, we may simply not call "cancer." I dont remember the autopsy numbers, but like prostate cancer, occult breast ca is present in a significant portion of woman dying form unrelated causes.
(you can still click on the error links)

NEJM - Error
Abolishing Mammography Screening Programs? A View from the Swiss Medical Board

NEJM - Error

NEJM - Error
 
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This is the equivalent of current Rad Onc residents requiring 'fellowships' in IMRT/SRS/SBRT. Realistically the people who need additional training are people with 25 years of attending experience who have not kept up with changing technologies. Guess who isn't going to be doing 'fellowships' to make up for supposed knowledge shortages?

Honest question: do old modalities in RadOnc die? I feel like it takes ages for old modalities to die in Radiology, so perhaps that’s a difference? We don’t ever replace old with new; we just staple on more required competencies to the point where you can’t hit them all competently in 4 years.

Eg. Breast imaging used to be mammo only; now it’s mammo, tomo, ultrasound, mri, and soon to be contrast mammo, and that’s just diagnostic examinations alone.
 
You may be surprised to learn that it is now argued that clinical stage I invasive breast cancer in elderly is clinically insignificant.

I've heard that for DCIS (not treating even when it's found). Is there any data supporting that in early stage breast cancer? Not talking about whether we should be screening or not.
 
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Honest question: do old modalities in RadOnc die? I feel like it takes ages for old modalities to die in Radiology, so perhaps that’s a difference? We don’t ever replace old with new; we just staple on more required competencies to the point where you can’t hit them all competently in 4 years.

Eg. Breast imaging used to be mammo only; now it’s mammo, tomo, ultrasound, mri, and soon to be contrast mammo, and that’s just diagnostic examinations alone.

Clinically, yes, we move past old modalities. However, in residency we are forced to learn how crap was done 20+ years ago so we can have a "historical perspective".

For example, for head and neck radiation (which is done with IMRT near 100% of the time in the current age), we still have to learn how old plans were created on X-ray (2D planning), despite the fact that it was night and day in terms of areas covered. Why did we have to learn that? Because somebody who trained back in the era where the only imaging you could plan on was an X-ray is still practicing as an attending. Because apparently all of the literature we have currently on what needs to and doesn't need to be covered isn't as useful as knowing how somebody did radiation treatment 30 years ago.

Even in 3-field breast plans, we now have contours for lymph node areas, that we can conform our planning fields to and minimize dose to normal tissue, but "it looks different than when we planned it with x-ray alone" is a very common criticism.

The issue is that most areas that are covered with radiation are extrapolations of how things were done back in the 2D era, meaning most of the time it's similar enough, so anytime there's a discrepancy, somebody can say "that's not how we treated it 20 years ago", and everyone who hasn't been in the field for 15+ years has to resist the urge to roll their eyes.
 
Clinically, yes, we move past old modalities. However, in residency we are forced to learn how crap was done 20+ years ago so we can have a "historical perspective".

For example, for head and neck radiation (which is done with IMRT near 100% of the time in the current age), we still have to learn how old plans were created on X-ray (2D planning), despite the fact that it was night and day in terms of areas covered. Why did we have to learn that? Because somebody who trained back in the era where the only imaging you could plan on was an X-ray is still practicing as an attending. Because apparently all of the literature we have currently on what needs to and doesn't need to be covered isn't as useful as knowing how somebody did radiation treatment 30 years ago.

Even in 3-field breast plans, we now have contours for lymph node areas, that we can conform our planning fields to and minimize dose to normal tissue, but "it looks different than when we planned it with x-ray alone" is a very common criticism.

The issue is that most areas that are covered with radiation are extrapolations of how things were done back in the 2D era, meaning most of the time it's similar enough, so anytime there's a discrepancy, somebody can say "that's not how we treated it 20 years ago", and everyone who hasn't been in the field for 15+ years has to resist the urge to roll their eyes.
Personally I wish Radiology would dispense with the 4th year minifellowship nonsense and just make the residency 3 years. If “everyone” has to do a fellowship, just amputate the “focused” year that doesn’t actually count for any certifications and allow us to do actual fellowship that year so we can earn our merit badges / CAQs and get on with our lives. It’ll never happen because the cheap labor is just too tasty, but the ABR itself created this weirdo 4th year situation by moving the Core exam. If 3 years is enough to learn the material for the core exam, then we should be good enough to progress to our “required” fellowships.
 
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