least hospitable medical schools

[AegisZero]

I have been hearing a lot about medical admissions committees showing no courtesy or regard for applicants.

My friend told me a story about how Case Western treated him like crap after he had mailed in his money with the secondary.

Anyone else having this kind of experience at different schools?

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[Adcadet]

I think large parts of the application process are in desperate need of reform. I think med school admissions is a classic case of the powerful exploiting the powerless and desperate. It amazes me that this has been tolerated so long in the profession dedicated to serving humanity.

Let me give one example: Stanford's screening.

Stanford has admitted that they use a computer-based formula to determine who gets secondaries, who gets rejected, and who gets reviewed by a human (for those the computer cannot make a clear decision). And they charge $100 for this! Why can't they disclose the formula used so we can tell if we have a shot at admissions? Surely it can't cost Stanford $100 per application to run our numbers through the machine. I think this is clearly a case of thousands of desperate, powerless pre-meds being abused by Stanford for a profit.

I believe medical school admissions offices need to be held accountable for what they charge applicants, and I think applicants should only be charged a reasonable amount.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Adcadet
Stanford has admitted that they use a computer-based formula to determine who gets secondaries, who gets rejected, and who gets reviewed by a human (for those the computer cannot make a clear decision). And they charge $100 for this! Why can't they disclose the formula used so we can tell if we have a shot at admissions? Surely it can't cost Stanford $100 per application to run our numbers through the machine. I think this is clearly a case of thousands of desperate, powerless pre-meds being abused by Stanford for a profit.

Actually $75, but a valid point, even if I wouldn't go as far as saying "abused." It must have cost a lot to hire that computer programmer.

To play devil's advocate, Stanford does need to fund its applications process, given that they are so selective. And I would argue that there is nothing wrong with their being selective.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by Random Access
Actually $75, but a valid point, even if I wouldn't go as far as saying "abused." It must have cost a lot to hire that computer programmer.

To play devil's advocate, Stanford does need to fund its applications process, given that they are so selective. And I would argue that there is nothing wrong with their being selective.

Of course Stanford has the right to be selective, and I don't doubt that it's expensive to run a busy admissions office. But do you really think the admissions office LOOSES money for Stanford? I don't. And do you think it's fair to be profiting from desperate pre-meds?

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Adcadet
Of course Stanford has the right to be selective, and I don't doubt that it's expensive to run a busy admissions office. But do you really think the admissions office LOOSES money for Stanford? I don't. And do you think it's fair to be profiting from desperate pre-meds?

Supply and demand. If they didn't have so many people applying, the cost would be higher. It costs a fair amount to set up everything and interview everyone.

Do you know how much sending out catalogs costs? And postage? It adds up (as I know from having done it). There are so many costs to running an admissions office.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by Random Access
Supply and demand.

So just beause people want to go there, Stanford can charge more? Is this fair?

If they didn't have so many people applying, the cost would be higher.
You mean to say that the large number of applicants helps to defer the overhead costs? I suppose so.

It costs a fair amount to set up everything and interview everyone.

and yeah, I suppose there is some "marginal cost" for each person interviewed.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Adcadet
So just beause people want to go there, Stanford can charge more? Is this fair?

Sure, why not? It's not illegal. It's business. You know that Stanford is selective when you apply, and you are deciding that it's an acceptable risk for you to apply, if you do. You know that you have to have good stats and be a well-rounded applicant. And you know that the process can be random at times. I don't see what the problem is here.

Hell, they even tell you what their criteria are, if you look at that PDF! They have a right to protect their formula that actually tabulates the results.

 

[UCLAMAN]

Stanford has admitted that they use a computer-based formula to determine who gets secondaries, who gets rejected, and who gets reviewed by a human (for those the computer cannot make a clear decision). And they charge $100 for this!

Well if you don't get the secondary then you don't have to fork over the $75.

Why can't they disclose the formula used so we can tell if we have a shot at admissions?

Well I think Stanford is one of the better schools since they will actually reject people pre-secondary. That way if your file doesn't actually have a shot of admissions then you won't even be given the opportunity to fork over the dough.

So I think schools that reject a lot of applicants(ie Stanford, UCSF...well...relative to other schools out there) pre-secondary are actually doing us applicants a favor by saving us the secondary fee if something we really don't have a shot at admissions.

Furthermore there really isn't a "formula" to get into medical school. How boring would it be if everyone in your med school class did the same thing because they followed a "formula?"

However, I must agree...the whole process is very frustrating.
I think the biggest problem plaguing this whole application process is that there are(what are the stats again?) something like twice as many applicants for as many total spots(perhaps more applicants?)?

As far as the application fees...well...if one couldn't afford such fees there are fee waivers out there.

Supply and demand. If they didn't have so many people applying, the cost would be higher. It costs a fair amount to set up everything and interview everyone.

I agree with RA...I'm sure the schools don't make as much profit as we think. I mean theres correspondence, the time spent reviewing/interviewing(remember, time is money!), keeping the admissions office running, etc.

Oh ya...and as far as the OP and getting "treated like crap," what exactly happened?

anyhow...just my $0.02...I've had too much anatomy today!

 

[S.c. Cdc28p]

Originally posted by AegisZero
I have been hearing a lot about medical admissions committees showing no courtesy or regard for applicants.

My friend told me a story about how Case Western treated him like crap after he had mailed in his money with the secondary.

Anyone else having this kind of experience at different schools?

Columbia. A horribly organized interview day that shows no respect for the interviewees.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by S.c. Cdc28p
Columbia. A horribly organized interview day that shows no respect for the interviewees.

Heard that the food really really really sucks. (good ol' Columbia dorm food)

 

[siempre595]

Northwestern has been pretty rude to me. I called to be sure a letter I sent to be put into my file got there ok (it's a pretty important addition to my app). The woman on the phone told me I needed to use the online check system. So I tried to explain there was no way for me to do that, cause it was an additional letter. Then she asked me why I thought I should get the special privilege of calling and not checking online. Clearly she wasn't getting it. Then she hung up on me. I'm still not sure if the letter got there. I'm not sure I care either.

 

[Woots32]

The staff and students at Iowa were very friendly, but their interview day was also terrible. Most of the time was spent in a tiny conference room with nothing to do. Definately did nothing to favorably change my thoughts about the school, which is sad, because I think it's really pretty good. The interview day just did nothing to convey this.

 

[Katie]

I'd have to go with BU.. just under 2 years ago when I called them to see if there was any chance of me scheduling an interview with them since I would be in town interviewing at Tufts, they totally blew me off and hung the phone up on me. turns out they did me a favor, Tufts was a better fit for me in so many ways!

As for most hospitable schools, I'd like to nominate Penn State and SLU. Penn State had the warmest and friendliest admissions staff I'd met, and SLU was great about being willing to reschedule my interview when I needed it and finding a nice student host for me.

 

[jlb102]

Hey, anyone seen the "making the band 2" where some stupid girl is complaining about the food they had for the contestants and Puffy heard about it and said screw her and sent her home...
Think about it.
The interview is not about food. If you care that much and that is your biggest complaint. Go home.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by jlb102
Hey, anyone seen the "making the band 2" where some stupid girl is complaining about the food they had for the contestants and Puffy heard about it and said screw her and sent her home...
Think about it.
The interview is not about food. If you care that much and that is your biggest complaint. Go home.

Dude. Chill. Just having fun. (you saw the smiley, right?)

Columbia dorm food is known to suck though. And most schools do tend to feed applicants better.

 

[sdnmed321]

Aegiszero, what did Case do to your friend? Define crap please. I'm curious.

 

[AegisZero]

Basically he sent in his secondary and never got a confirmation for an interview or anything. They said that he didnt send it in, but then it shows that they cashed the check for a secondary already. So he called after this and they still said they didnt have it. The people he talked to were very rude apparently as well.

He doesnt really care though, since the school was like his 15th choice. The problem is, he wasted 75 bucks. He has been treated a LOT better by the top 15 or so medical schools though.

 

[scootad.]

Hmmm...15th on his list, treated better by the top 15...

ahhh, gotta love US NEWS

 

[USeF]

Originally posted by UCLAMAN
Well if you don't get the secondary then you don't have to fork over the $75.

So I think schools that reject a lot of applicants(ie Stanford, UCSF...well...relative to other schools out there) pre-secondary are actually doing us applicants a favor by saving us the secondary fee if something we really don't have a shot at admissions.

2 of the 3 schools that saved me secondary $$ to travel in the summer with. thank you Stanford, UCSF and UNC-Chapel Hill

 

[AegisZero]

Originally posted by scootad.
Hmmm...15th on his list, treated better by the top 15...

ahhh, gotta love US NEWS

I did not say that something about being ranked in the top 15 made these schools more hospitable, but that these schools that were in the top 15 were very good at helping my friend out. Maybe thats why they are in the top 15?

 

[Zoobaby]

Let's assume that Stanford sends secondaries to 3000 applicants (probably a high estimate.) At $75 per, that's $225,000. That's really not much of a 12 month budget for an office that does everything that that office does. Even if it's 5000 applicants and you figure $100 each, half a million dollars still doesn't seem unresonable. I'd bet that most admissions offices are either self-sustaining, or a drain on the books as a whole. Any that are profit centers probably pull down less per year that the tuition of one student. I agree that secondary fees suck, but they would be MUCH higher if the target was profit.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by Zoobaby
Let's assume that Stanford sends secondaries to 3000 applicants (probably a high estimate.) At $75 per, that's $225,000. That's really not much of a 12 month budget for an office that does everything that that office does. Even if it's 5000 applicants and you figure $100 each, half a million dollars still doesn't seem unresonable. I'd bet that most admissions offices are either self-sustaining, or a drain on the books as a whole. Any that are profit centers probably pull down less per year that the tuition of one student. I agree that secondary fees suck, but they would be MUCH higher if the target was profit.

I can't believe that this is true. I was at GW last week, and the guy running interview day basically begged us not to send in too much stuff, because the office is basically 3 people. But regardless - I'd like for each medical school to disclose this information to AAMC, AMSA, or another body. I'm interested in med school admissions reform, and I think disclosure is the honest, fair thing to do.

 

[marakah2]

I would have to say that northwestern was the worst.

I hated their strict deadlines for everything, the receptionist was not helpful at all in terms of scheduling flights "i have no idea how long it will take to get to the airport from here after the day"--i mean come on, shouldn't the admissions office be able to give a ballpark estimate about how long other students have taken to get to the airport?

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Adcadet
But regardless - I'd like for each medical school to disclose this information to AAMC, AMSA, or another body. I'm interested in med school admissions reform, and I think disclosure is the honest, fair thing to do.

I don't see an ethical justification for this. I think they can protect their methods and procedures as much or as little as they want. Why do you think it should be a right of the applicant to know the exact procedures?

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by marakah2
I hated their strict deadlines for everything, the receptionist was not helpful at all in terms of scheduling flights "i have no idea how long it will take to get to the airport from here after the day"--i mean come on, shouldn't the admissions office be able to give a ballpark estimate about how long other students have taken to get to the airport?

Admissions offices should really know this sort of information, especially if they're interviewing hundreds of people (and they probably have been to the airport or know someone who has!). That's really annoying. I've called shuttle companies to find out how long they take, on average, but that seems to be the only way at some schools.

If you're hitting up the L.A. area, check out Primetime Shuttle (which also serves New York metro). Their website is great for finding out fares and approximate transit times to and from airports.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Zoobaby
Let's assume that Stanford sends secondaries to 3000 applicants (probably a high estimate.) At $75 per, that's $225,000. That's really not much of a 12 month budget for an office that does everything that that office does. Even if it's 5000 applicants and you figure $100 each, half a million dollars still doesn't seem unresonable. I'd bet that most admissions offices are either self-sustaining, or a drain on the books as a whole. Any that are profit centers probably pull down less per year that the tuition of one student. I agree that secondary fees suck, but they would be MUCH higher if the target was profit.

And check out the money trail... They probably mail out at least 3 letters per application, so that's already over a dollar, and more if they mail you more things and heavier things. They send out viewbooks, and those probably run $10-15 each. That's perhaps 1/5 of the secondary cost already.

Then, they have to review your application, file all the paperwork, talk to interviewers, the adcom has to meet, they feed all these people, the list goes on and on. A $225K budget isn't that big for that much work. I think they're losing money. Thanks for the math, Zoobaby. No one really considered that before.

 

[Katie]

I'd like to nominate the University of Maryland for the lame-o award of the week.. When I applied, my application was complete in mid-September (they sent me no notification of this). I called them to make sure they had everything, and they told me that they did.. I asked them if they could give me an estimate of when I was likely to hear whether or not I would be interviewed, and they said, "since you just went to committee, you should probably hear within the month." A month went by and I heard nothing, so I called them back and was told that "once you are sent to committee we in the admissions office have NO control over when a decision will be made on your file." When I tried to tell them that that was not what I heard before and tried asking for a rough estimate they hung up on me! I didn't call them again, and didn't get interviewed until March, when virtually no spots were available. and I was in-state, had 3 letters of rec from professors at the med school in addition to my undergrad letters, and worked at UMB for 2 years. I moved on and all, but am still p.o.ed at Maryland for not giving any notification that I was being reviewed..

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by Adcadet
I'd like for each medical school to disclose this information to AAMC, AMSA, or another body. I'm interested in med school admissions reform, and I think disclosure is the honest, fair thing to do.

I agree. If you're talking about a state school, many (all?) are mandated to publish this sort of information in their annual reports and lesser documents. At U of Michigan you can get all of the financial info at the undergrad library's reserves desk including accounting details and even salaries paid per professor/staff member. Many private schools work the same way.

For some schools, the info you ask for is already available, it's just a matter of finding it. Sometimes the info that institiutions must make public IS made public, just in a pretty quiet way (eg, put one copy on reserves but don't publish it anywhere else.)