Left Medical Schoool in 2000 and want to reapply. Need advice.

[Math_Guy]

Hey all. Here’s my situation. (you may skip to the very end for my 4 pointed Questions).

I was admitted to medical school as part of an MD/PhD program a long time ago (ie 1995), and chose to leave the program in 2000 for various reasons (see below). Since that time, I have worked in the corporate world and am considering a move back to medicine for various reasons (see below). Here is a brief snapshot of my background.

- 32 years old and single. The only baggage I have is the mortgage on my fancy apartment.
- Currently live in NYC. Originally from Illinois.
- BS BioEngineering (3.54/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1992-1995)
- MS Pure Math (3.53/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1997)
- MS Applied Math (3.88/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1999)
- MS Finance (3.70/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (2000)
- 6 years of corporate experience as an actuary in New York City. (ie 2000-present)
- I was only accepted and registered in the medical school. I barely had anything to do with the program, except for 2 blow off courses I took in Medical Statistics and Behavioral Science. Needless to say, I got the highest marks in the class for Statistics.

The program I was admitted to was absolutely the wrong program for me at the time. For starters, the MD/PhD program I was admitted to did not have funding from the NIH, so I was encouraged to get my PhD before going to medical school. In my opinion this program does a major disservice to students because it basically mooches off the graduate program to fund medical school. Furthermore, you don’t save any time since you are really doing 2 separate degrees and there is no overlap of credits. Hindsight being 20/20, I should have left the PhD program from the beginning, and gone straight through medical school in 4 years. My roommate did exactly this, and but I felt guilty of leaving the joint program from the onset.

At first, I was going to get my PhD in Pure Math, but then I found it very hard to see why I was getting a PhD in Pure Math and getting an MD. The program faculty kept on saying, “Oh – it doesn’t matter. Just having a PhD will be useful.” With all do respect, I strongly disagree with that philosophy. So, I started to look for ways to put my math skills to use. After an MS in Applied Math, I discovered Finance, and thought I could apply myself in the field of Health Insurance. And so, 8 years later, after 3 masters degrees, I was poised to get a PhD in Finance and I still had not started medical school (except for 2 blow off courses in medical statistics and behavioral science).

After being in the same college cow town that I really hated for (ie Champaign, IL) for 8 years, I was VERY depressed. At that point, I was not even sure I wanted to be a doctor. I’m sure my depression had much to do with that. I had an itch to go out and explore the world. All I knew was academics, and the scene was getting very old very quickly. I remember days when I could not even get out of bed. I started to eat like crap (chips and salsa all day, with an occasional burger and cake). I basically turned into a worthless zombie. I went and told the program director that I was not doing well, and tried to transfer to the Chicago campus – but they would not listen. The only way I could transfer is if I could show an “extenuating circumstance.” The kept on saying “if you love what you do, then it does not matter where you are.” I don’t think advice that applies to everyone. A lot of my growth as a person is derived from my broader environment. It DOES matter A LOT for me where I actually live.

So, after my 3rd masters’ degree, I decided to take control over my life. I left the program (MD/PhD), packed up my bags, moved across the country. I went for the jugular, and moved right into Manhattan. All I had was a few thousand bucks and 3 masters’ degrees from a good Midwestern state school that gets no love in the big apple. However, I was bold and went after creating a new life with a vengeance. With hard work and tenacity, I got a fancy job in New York City. I now work on Wall Street, make a nice six figure salary, and have had life experiences I would have never had otherwise. As I type this note 6 years later, I am blessed to be able to look at my fancy eco-drive watch, and think about how fortunate I am to have a fancy apartment right on Wall Street!

My worst nightmare is most others dream come true. Leaving the program was probably one of the best decisions I ever made with my life.

Even though it is probably best for me to stay on my current career trajectory from an economic perspective, I feel that I am in the wrong industry. While it is important for me to be comfortable economically, I don’t need to be rich to be happy (although money does help make things easier). I feel like an outward career in medicine is a much truer representation of my inner self. Although my current career has been good to me, it lacks the “service to people component” which is what really makes me happy. I have had a broad range of life experiences, and am happiest when I am in a mode of service to others in a very direct helpful way. I’m sure my role in a large corporation is beneficial to the broader community, but I know I need a more direct experience.

On a personal level, I have grown to be quite spiritual over the past few years. I really am a big proponent of the “mind/body/spirit” connection – even though there is not too much science in this area yet. I practice yoga a few times a week and meditate almost daily. I wake up to a feeling of gratitude. I see the “abundance” in my life instead of the “voids.” Start every day with “empowering” thoughts instead of “destructive” ones. I see my body as my temple.

Moving to New York catalyzed an explosion of personal and spiritual growth. It is in this crazy city of outward expression and materialism that I felt a bolt of light and discovered a profound omnipresent inner bliss and truth. While I realize that this realization is not necessarily central for medical school, what IS central is that I have a calling of service to humanity. I know from my heart that service is one of the greatest forms of spiritual development, and that is my intention. I feel that medicine is much closer to my true spiritual nature than business. It is becoming increasingly important for me to live with compassion, mercy, and integrity. Although I think this is possible in business, it is just more harmonious with medicine. Needless to say, I work in the insurance business – which is very a shrewd industry. Also, I have always been interested in science subjects, and am an avid reader of the explosion of scientific breakthroughs. I have not done too much in terms of community service recently, simply b/c my fancy job takes up most of my time. However, I am really thinking of switching gears and trying to get more involved with the medical community.

Q1: One thing that has been bugging me is how to I handle my past of leaving medical school. Will that experience hurt me? How much detail should I write about?

Q2: Also, in terms of logistics I would need to sell my apartment, possibly take a loss, and move to the ghetto so I can save bucks. Having been accepted once, I think I have all the pre-requisites, although they are not current. Do I need to take more courses? If so, should I invest in a post-bacc program at take higher level courses at say, Columbia?

Q3: If I don’t need to take too many more courses, I think I will spend my weekends studying for the MCAT (my scores are way too old!) and doing community service. Do people think that would be sufficient to get into a top school?

Q4: Would I be a competitive applicant for a top school given my situation? I would love to goto either Columbia, Stanford, NYU, or Harvard.

Looking back, I can see the innocence of many of my decisions (i.e. starting to pursue a PhD in Pure Math and an MD, being 21 and having very minimal life experience outside of academics, not pushing through just an MD, etc.). The good news is that I will not apply to a place I know I will not be happy. The other thing I have learned is that I KNOW I can make anything happen if I set my mind to it. After all, they say “If you can make it in NYC – you can make it anywhere.” The world is full of possibilities – it’s just a matter of knowing what you want and going for it!

Thanks for reading this very long post!

Math_Guy

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[Eric Lindros]

BS BioEngineering (3.54/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1992-1995)
Math_Guy

Question:

How did you get your Bioengineering Degree at UIL U/C when the degree only bacame available in 2003?

http://www.bioen.uiuc.edu/about.html

 

[Math_Guy]

Question:

How did you get your Bioengineering Degree at UIL U/C when the degree only bacame available in 2003?

http://www.bioen.uiuc.edu/about.html

Eric,

BioEngineering was indeed a formal major back then, and has had a long history at UIUC. However, UIUC college of Engineering recently formed a BioEngineering department, and this is what you are noticing.

Thanks for the link. Looks like not much has changed in the major. I took pretty much the same curriculum as what is posted online.

 

[Law2Doc]

Q4: Would I be a competitive applicant for a top school given my situation? I would love to goto either Columbia, Stanford, NYU, or Harvard.

Forgive me for the bluntness of this, and this is totally my own opinion, but I somewhat doubt it, and would think you need to apply much more widely.

First, from what I can tell, the med school program you left was not comparably competitive to the top 10, so your credentials are not magically now good enough to get into the top schools. And average matriculant credentials for these top schools have climbed steadilly up since you last applied, making the bar higher. Schools don't put as much weight to non-health graduate schooling as you'd like to think -- it helps, but not enough to bump you up into a top 10 school candidate. A high MCAT can help your chances, but you'd really be counting unhatched chickens from eggs you don't even own to think you will get into a top 10 program. Shoot for any allo program and plan on these being very longshots, at best. And at least one of those schools reportedly isn't the most amenable to reapplicants besides.

Second, all school applications tend to ask if you have ever applied to or matriculated to med school before and the fact that you bailed once will loom large. Schools want to accept people who will make it through their program without quitting, and you already have a bad track record for this. Not something you cannot overcome, but it is a red flag for some.

Third, the sheer volume of degrees and degree programs you have been in can also give you a red flag as being unfocused, a "degree collector" and "career student". This too is something you can overcome but also should be regarded as a red flag as much as an asset. Expect to have to do a lot of spin control with this to get into med school, and expect to have to widen your sites to a much broader range of schools.

Again, I could be wrong and this is only my opinion. Others should weigh in. Good luck.

 

[Math_Guy]

Second, all school applications tend to ask if you have ever applied to or matriculated to med school before and the fact that you bailed once will loom large.

Yes - I am aware of this. Any idea on how to spin this? ie should I be short and to the point, or should I get into details. I do have documented evidence that I was depressed, etc. (I got professional help).

UIUC is a top 5 engineering school in almost every ranking, and is very good for the other areas I studied as well. I would think that my performance + extracurriculars would count highly - but I could be wrong.

In my honest opinion, graduate level work in Math is very difficult - much more difficult than anything in medicine in terms of analytical problem solving. Do Adcoms give any love to Math majors?

Do you think a post-bach program would serve me well. If I make close to a 4.0 in such a program and take higher level courses, would that help? I'm just hesitant on going to Columbia's post-bach program b/c it is really pricy.

Actually - I'm not so high strung on a top med school, as long as I am in a half way decent place. To be truthful, after spending almost 10 years in the boonies, I think I could spend 4 years almost anywhere.

 

[njbmd]

- BS BioEngineering (3.54/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1992-1995)
- MS Pure Math (3.53/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1997)
- MS Applied Math (3.88/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (1999)
- MS Finance (3.70/4.0). U of IL – Urbana/Champaign, IL (2000)
- 6 years of corporate experience as an actuary in New York City. (ie 2000-present)
- I was only accepted and registered in the medical school. I barely had anything to do with the program, except for 2 blow off courses I took in Medical Statistics and Behavioral Science. Needless to say, I got the highest marks in the class for Statistics.


Q1: One thing that has been bugging me is how to I handle my past of leaving medical school. Will that experience hurt me? How much detail should I write about?

Q2: Also, in terms of logistics I would need to sell my apartment, possibly take a loss, and move to the ghetto so I can save bucks. Having been accepted once, I think I have all the pre-requisites, although they are not current. Do I need to take more courses? If so, should I invest in a post-bacc program at take higher level courses at say, Columbia?

Q3: If I don’t need to take too many more courses, I think I will spend my weekends studying for the MCAT (my scores are way too old!) and doing community service. Do people think that would be sufficient to get into a top school?

Q4: Would I be a competitive applicant for a top school given my situation? I would love to goto either Columbia, Stanford, NYU, or Harvard.

I am going to preface my comments with this. I sit on the admissions committees of two medical schools. One is a state school and the other is a private school. I also have some experience with three of the schools that you have mentioned above in that several of my closest friends sit on their admissions committees and we consult each other often.

From the standpoint of both my schools where I do admissions work: Your leaving medical school (for the reasons that you state) would be a death blow. Sure you were young (and inexperienced) but you had enough experience to get accepted into an MD/Ph.D program. You either received poor advice from your mentors or you didn't research the implications of your decision. Being young and inexperienced is not an excuse for squandering an opportunity that might have been given to someone who would have finished that program. If you had been ill or had to leave to take care of an ailing loved one (child, spouse, parent), you might be able to convince a medical school school to take a chance on you but not liking the program does not speak well for your poor decision-making.

It is unlikely that a formal post bacc program would be interested in accepting you for the above reason. You would be able to do an informal post bacc (take the classes that you need to re-take on your own outside of a program).

In terms of top schools, I can say that three of the schools that you have mentioned above are likely to fall along the lines of my two schools and pass on you. Brilliance does not equal suitability for medical school and I am not sure how you could spin your record, again, as you have stated it, into something that would convince a school to take a chance on you.

If you overcome the problems of your leaving a previous MD/Ph.D program, you have the problems of your GPA. Your undergraduate GPA is lower than the average matriculant (medical schools across the country) and much lower than the matriculants at the schools that you seek to enter. Your first Masters GPA is pretty low and the other two, that are reasonably acceptable are not likely to help you much since graduate GPAs are not weighted as strongly as undergraduate GPA.

You may want to look into consulting a professional medical school admissions counselor (do a Google search, find some and compare) and see if they can offer you some suggestions as to what your best course of action might be.

IMHO, you face an uphill (but not impossible) battle. At least, before you sell your "stuff" and move to the "ghetto", you should be well-informed as to the implications of your decisions so that you do not repeat your mistakes.

 

[NonTradMed]

Yes - I am aware of this. Any idea on how to spin this? ie should I be short and to the point, or should I get into details. I do have documented evidence that I was depressed, etc. (I got professional help).

UIUC is a top 5 engineering school in almost every ranking, and is very good for the other areas I studied as well. I would think that my performance + extracurriculars would count highly - but I could be wrong.

In my honest opinion, graduate level work in Math is very difficult - much more difficult than anything in medicine in terms of analytical problem solving. Do Adcoms give any love to Math majors?

Do you think a post-bach program would serve me well. If I make close to a 4.0 in such a program and take higher level courses, would that help? I'm just hesitant on going to Columbia's post-bach program b/c it is really pricy.

Actually - I'm not so high strung on a top med school, as long as I am in a half way decent place. To be truthful, after spending almost 10 years in the boonies, I think I could spend 4 years almost anywhere.

You have good GPAs from tough courses at a school known for it's engineering (and presumably the math program ain't bad either). You need to retake your MCAT now and do well on it (30+). Academically, you are not in bad shape. However, your previous matriculation into a medical program WILL be a red herring to adcoms. They do not like to see people bail out of graduate programs and they especially do not like to see ex-med students who quit. It brings into doubt whether or not you would quit again if they accept you a second time. I think you should start by doing the MCAT. Get at least a 32. I say this because your situation may make it harder for med schools to want to accept you. In order to get them to give you a 'second chance', you may have to be an 'above average' candidate to see some love.

Make a list of schools you want to apply to. Make a few calls to the top choices and ask them about your predicament. See what they say. You need to get a feel for how each med schools treat ex-med students.

Also, shadowing is important. And volunteer work that will get you clinical experience. This is not pretty much a requirement for med schools nowadays.

When you apply, it won't be that much more different than from the first time around. Everything is electronic now and people may apply to many more schools since it is easier to do that now, but there's still primaries, secondaries, essays etc. I think you have a good shot, but not at a top school. Good luck.

 

[Eric Lindros]

Eric,

BioEngineering was indeed a formal major back then, and has had a long history at UIUC. However, UIUC college of Engineering recently formed a BioEngineering department, and this is what you are noticing.

Thanks for the link. Looks like not much has changed in the major. I took pretty much the same curriculum as what is posted online.

Ah, ok. My bad.

 

[Math_Guy]

From the standpoint of both my schools where I do admissions work: Your leaving medical school (for the reasons that you state) would be a death blow.

Thanks for your candor. I really appreciate it. Whooh. This sounds like a really really bad idea. I am happy with my current life, and perhaps I just need to hear more from people like you.

Q for you. Does it matter that I really had nothing to do with the MD program? And, I did really well in the 2 minor (ie not central) courses I took. Sounds like I would be much better off today if I had never accepted and enrolled into the program, but I can't see why? It's not like I failed out (far from it).

If it comes down to economics that is one thing. But if it b/c they think I can't make it through, that is another. I don't think anyone can question my intelligence, drive, etc. I realize that my undergrad GPA is not a 4.0, but I would think that the competitive nature of the curriculum should get weighted? Would someone from MIT or Stanford's Engineering school with a 3.5/4.0 be at a disadvantage? UIUC is right up there with the big boys (for engineering at least - math and science is up there too...).

Am I just basically screwed, or do I have a shot at a top 20 school?

Perhaps osteopathic may be more receptive to me and also more in line with how I feel about medicine, but I'm a bit prestige conscious. (very bad I know…breath….that's why I need to do more yoga&#8230

 

[njbmd]

Thanks for your candor. I really appreciate it. Whooh. This sounds like a really really bad idea. I am happy with my current life, and perhaps I just need to hear more from people like you.

Q for you. Does it matter that I really had nothing to do with the MD program? And, I did really well in the 2 minor (ie not central) courses I took. Sounds like I would be much better off today if I had never accepted and enrolled into the program, but I can't see why? It's not like I failed out (far from it).

If it comes down to economics that is one thing. But if it b/c they think I can't make it through, that is another. I don't think anyone can question my intelligence, drive, etc. I realize that my undergrad GPA is not a 4.0, but I would think that the competitive nature of the curriculum should get weighted? Would someone from MIT or Stanford's Engineering school with a 3.5/4.0 be a disadvantage? UIUC is right up there with the big boys (for engineering at least).

Am I just basically screwed, or do I have a shot at a top 20 school?

Perhaps osteopathic may be more receptive to me and also more in line with how I feel about medicine, but I'm a bit prestige conscious. (very bad I know…breath….that's why I need to do more yoga&#8230

Your problems have little to do with intelligence and mostly to do with a huge question of commitment to the practice of medicine. You have no evidence of this commitment and much evidence to the contrary.Your undergraduate school and major have little to do with the decision that you made to leave an MD/Ph.D program regardless of whether you actually attended the MD courses or not. You need to come up with a good reason why you made your previous decision and you need to find a sound way of convincing any medical school of why they should offer you a place in their class when the competition is very stiff for every seat regardless of osteopathic or allopathic medical school.

Osteopathic schools may be an option for you but you still face the obstacle of explaining why your left your original program. The level of instruction at osteopathic schools is outstanding and you would be a physician upon graduation. If you desire to practice medicine, osteopathic or allopathic will get you there.

It comes down to:

Big problem - you left an MD/Ph.D program, why should we take a chance on you when you essentially squandered a great opportunity? Solve the big problem and you can work on:

Smaller problem: Your GPA is a bit on the low side but you can raise that by re-taking the courses that may have expired (some schools will not take pre-med courses that are older than 3 years) or by taking some upper-division courses and doing well.

 

[Math_Guy]

You have good GPAs from tough courses at a school known for it's engineering (and presumably the math program ain't bad either). You need to retake your MCAT now and do well on it (30+). Academically, you are not in bad shape. However, your previous matriculation into a medical program WILL be a red herring to adcoms. They do not like to see people bail out of graduate programs and they especially do not like to see ex-med students who quit.

Make a few calls to the top choices and ask them about your predicament. See what they say. You need to get a feel for how each med schools treat ex-med students.

I think you have a good shot, but not at a top school. Good luck.

Amen brother! Keep hope alive!

Ha ha. OK - thanks for the glimmer of hope, but most people think I'm screwed. Look - I'm a pretty tough chinned dude, and I can face the facts if that is indeed true.

I personally feel that getting anything above a 3.5/4.0 at UIUC's engineering school is stellar. Grades are not handed out over there, and it is just as good as any engineering program in the country / world.

But if other people don't view it that way - yes I could be dead under water.

How do I probe the various med schools and still remain anonymous??! I've been wondering about that. Is there a contact person? Like I said, my med school was a very removed experience and I wish I knew!

Also, do you really think that med schools will think I'm a quitter? I just didn't roll over and "quit." I did finish 3 masters degress in a span of 5 years of full time study. To me, that does not sound like quitting....

I knwo someone who accepted, enrolled for a week, and then quit. That is something very different, no?

 

[Math_Guy]

BTW, as I side note - I think I could offer the medical profession a tremendous asset. I am an (re)insurance actuary and am intimately familiar with the business of insurance pricing and risk management.

Most people in the world have never heard of us actuaries, but in a nutshell, there are very very few of us in the world. We have 9 board exams to clear, which take on the order of 10 years to finish. These exams are incredibly tough to clear - and that is an understatement.

One part of my motivation that I have not mentioned is that I opted to gain real world experience + actuarial designations instead of getting a PhD in finance (which is very removed from reality). I told myself that after a few years of hands on experience, I could contribute much more to medicine than if I had stayed in Champaign, IL in an academic bubble.

My point is that insurance is a HUGE part of the economics of insurance, and I could be a valuable asset to bridge the gap between the medical and business communities. To understand insurance is requires an in-depth understanding of economic, legal, regulatory, and market forces that an actuary is best equipped to handle.

I think I hold that as an ace card ??

- MG
(BTW, reinsurance is insurance for insurance companies).

 

[Math_Guy]

Big problem - you left an MD/Ph.D program, why should we take a chance on you when you essentially squandered a great opportunity?

How is, "A PhD in Finance would have taken me at least 5 years. Instead I wanted to gain first hand experience in the insurance marketplace - which is exactly what I have done. In that time, I have cleared tough actuarial exams and have worked at some of the worlds most influential insurance firms. Furthermore, my network consists of some of the most powerful insurance professionals in the world. I am now much better equipped to served the business of insurance than if I would have obtained a PhD. The second half of my training consists of becoming a doctor, which will position me to address some of the nations most critical health care issues..."

 

[notdeadyet]

- 6 years of corporate experience as an actuary in New York City. (ie 2000-present)

Now, I don't have three higher degrees in Math, but...

imho, I think your application is going to read like this:

1. Was accepted to a medical program and left of his own volition
2. 8 years later, after 6 (or 8?) years of suit and tie life, has decided to go back to medicine
3. Obviously is a bright guy, but seems to collect degrees without really finishing to his goals
4. Now wants to go to med school for very vague reasons

Maybe you can spin it, but I'd consult a professional advisor. Your app is going to raise lots and lots of red flags, but I'm not getting a great spin from you for how you can get past it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Also, do you really think that med schools will think I'm a quitter? I just didn't roll over and "quit." I did finish 3 masters degress in a span of 5 years of full time study. To me, that does not sound like quitting....

You quit med school. That is the only one that is relevant for this inquiry. Med schools have a mission/obligation to churn out practitioners, and seats are precious, so schools only want to accept people likely to finish. People who start graduate programs, (especially med school) and don't complete thus have a bad track record.

Your "getting real world experience" argument will be a hard sell, as that was something you should really have done before initially applying, and there are plenty of nontrads out there with life experience who don't have your same red flags. Had you been a nontrad who never matriculated, you could spin the insurance angle nicely. But top schools don't bend over backwards for folks with masters degrees and prior careers the way you seem to think.

I wonder if you may have a shot at getting back into the place you dropped out of, if you meet with them, humbly, hat in hand -- perhaps they would regard it more as a leave of abscence rather than a new application; you may want to talk to the dean of admissions after the current cycle.
Unfortunately njbmd has more direct experience in the workings of adcoms than most of us, and so her post should have you running a bit scared.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Thanks for your candor. I really appreciate it. Whooh. This sounds like a really really bad idea. I am happy with my current life, and perhaps I just need to hear more from people like you.

Q for you. Does it matter that I really had nothing to do with the MD program? And, I did really well in the 2 minor (ie not central) courses I took. Sounds like I would be much better off today if I had never accepted and enrolled into the program, but I can't see why? It's not like I failed out (far from it).

If it comes down to economics that is one thing. But if it b/c they think I can't make it through, that is another. I don't think anyone can question my intelligence, drive, etc. I realize that my undergrad GPA is not a 4.0, but I would think that the competitive nature of the curriculum should get weighted? Would someone from MIT or Stanford's Engineering school with a 3.5/4.0 be at a disadvantage? UIUC is right up there with the big boys (for engineering at least - math and science is up there too...).

Am I just basically screwed, or do I have a shot at a top 20 school?

Perhaps osteopathic may be more receptive to me and also more in line with how I feel about medicine, but I'm a bit prestige conscious. (very bad I know…breath….that's why I need to do more yoga&#8230

Hey,

I can't comment too much on any of the other stuff (i.e. dropping out of Medical School) but I am a career-changing engineer who has been accepted this cycle to a top-20 medical school, and may yet be accepted to more, so I will put some of these comments into perspective:

1. Your GPA is great for engineering from a top engineering school. I also went to a top engineering school and had a similar GPA. Remember that I have been accepted to a top-20 Medical School this cycle. Do well on the MCAT (I had a 36) and I think you can overcome your GPA "problems." I put "problems" in quotes because I don't really think you have a problem with your GPA. Engineering programs at top schools are TOUGH, and at least some ADCOMs know it.

2. The common belief on this forum is that dropping out of ANY graduate program kills your application. I dropped out of a PhD program (and since I already had a Master's degree, I couldn't leave with a Master's degree or anything like that.) It's something that I was asked about at 2 of my interviews, but it didn't stop me from getting into a good Medical School. Common sense says that dropping out of a MEDICAL school program will look much worse, but if this is really what you want to do, think some more about how you will spin your situation, and you may be able to overcome it.

I do want to make a comment about your attitude. Medical School admission does not come easy to ANYONE. Like a previous poster said, setting your sights on only top-10 schools is unrealistic. You may well have to attend a Medical School in the middle of nowhere (your best chances for admission probably lie with your state schools) and live in the "ghetto" if this is what you really want. Besides community service (which isn't likely to influence your application very much at this late a state,) you will need to have at least some clinical experience, which often involves you doing menial tasks (scutwork) to help nurses, doctors, and patients. Make sure that this is really what you want to do, because you will be facing, to at least some extent, an uphill battle. Best of luck to you!

 

[billydoc]

Math_Guy,
First off Best of Luck to you. I think you'll get in somewhere. I don't think that all schools would be so unforgiving that you're doomed and screwed. But if nothing else works (I HIGHLY doubt that) you can always get MD from the 4 well established Caribbean schools. There is an absolutely crapload of very qulified ppl from every walk of life went to ROSS with me. I got sick on the island (just an exacerbation of chronic stuff), and will be applying D.O soon. I'm 36 and have been in healthcare field for the past 16 yrs. So it may work to my advantage. I don't want to give you a poor advise, and don't know what you want to specialize in...but if you want an MD there are many legit ways to get it. Though Carib can hinder your chances for an uber competative residencies. But if I had degree in finance, engineering etc, adding an MD to this mix could be a dynamite combo, IMHO. You may want to have a little bit from both of these Worlds.
Best of Luck

 

[1Path]

How do I probe the various med schools and still remain anonymous??! I've been wondering about that. Is there a contact person? Like I said, my med school was a very removed experience and I wish I knew!?

The absolute FIRST thing you need to do is go back to your original post and DELETE ALL identifying info. I'm not on an adcom, but I could spot your application from a mile away and as I've found, the world of medical admissions is a VERY small place. Ask the the moderators delete portions of the posts others quoted too.

Also, do you really think that med schools will think I'm a quitter?

Absolutely! Honestly if I were you I'd do something unique to prove that I was sincere about med school, like join the peace corp in Africa for 2 years. If that's not an option, I'd certainly get involved ASAP with an organization involved with providing health care, like a clinic in a rural or urban area and put some REAL time in. The other obvious thing is doing well on the MCAT.

Personally, I think aceing the MCAT is going to be the "easy" part (Engineers are the smartest premeds on the planet, I don't care what ANYBODY says) and you should give yourself a reasonable timetable to reapply too like 2 years or for the class of 2009. Proving you're ready is going to be much harder but certainly NOT impossible if you make the right decisions from this point forward.

Best of luck from someone who years earlier tuned down an MD/PhD opportunity too!

 

[Math_Guy]

OK. What I hear loud and clear is that a top 10 med school may be a stretch, but I think a top 40 is not out of the Q?

I'm a bit scared though, b/c the person who sits on an adcom basically says my grades are on the low end, and I'm not even sure if any program can save me now.

BTW, I am prepared to quit the Armani suit lifestyle, move to the ghetto, and gain clinical experience. I know this would involve scut work, but that's the easy part for me.

If I were on the Adcom, I would think, "Wow - this person wants rock the boat, give up 'the bling', live ghetto fabulous, went back to school, rocked the MCAT, survived on pb&j, all to be a doctor. This person must be really committed."

Just my 2 cents.

I think I should do some risk management and rock the MCAT first. If I bomb it, my decision is made for me. I concur that I would need mid 30's to be competitive.

 

[Law2Doc]

OK. What I hear loud and clear is that a top 10 med school may be a stretch, but I think a top 40 is not out of the Q?

I think you need to start with the mindset of hoping for a lucky shot at ANY med school. That doesn't mean "top" anything. You should note that people on this thread have suggested you look at schools "in the middle of nowhere", DO schools and carribean schools. So I don't quite get this whole -- I'm qualified for a high ranked school notion you've got going on.

 

[Math_Guy]

Unfortunately njbmd has more direct experience in the workings of adcoms than most of us, and so her post should have you running a bit scared.

Yes - I'm sort of scared ****less. I had no idea this would turn into such a big deal. Honestly.

Seriously - in some wierd way, I almost feel like a criminal. Like I I've committed adultery or something. Perhaps if I brand a scarlet letter Q (for Quitter) on my forehead, that will help.

If anything at all, it should be me who should be upset since my school never told me about any of this.

I'll keep the post up for a bit, and then I'll take it down. Clearly, there are people on adcoms who view this board.

 

[Law2Doc]

If I were on the Adcom, I would think, "Wow - this person wants rock the boat, give up 'the bling', live ghetto fabulous, went back to school, rocked the MCAT, survived on pb&j, all to be a doctor. This person must be really committed."

Read the thread in the nontrad board about what salaries people gave up for med school. You will see that your career situation was hardly unique.

 

[Math_Guy]

Hey thanks everyone. I think I'm basically screwed.

Sounds like getting into any allopathic program will be a hail mary. I'm not averse to going to any med school in the nation, but I really prefer to stay in the US.

I am receptive to the DO option as well.

-MG

 

[NonTradMed]

Hey, just wanted to add that I was an engineer too (although it was computer science which is in the engineering dept, but I took all the engineering bells and whistles classes) and I came from a fairly selective school (top 20), and I believe that your 3.54 is NOT bad. I was a 3.4 and I don't think I had nearly the difficulty of work that you had but while my GPA didn't help me, I was told that since I attended a difficult school, had a difficult major, that my 3.4 was not going to knock me out of the running as it may other students who had easier programs to contend with.

Math majors, I have read, tend to score very well on the MCAT, probably because the analytical thinking involved in math is carried over to the MCAT.

As I stated before, your academic record is NOT the problem, it's the quitting med school part. If you had not matriculated into the school program, I think most of us here would consider you a pretty good candidate for med school.

But fear not, I still think you have a shot. You will need to show dedication to the medical field. This means proving that this second jaunt into medicine isn't a random decision. You need to shadow, volunteer and get some good recs. You need to do well on your MCAT, there can be no room for mediocrity. Maybe briefly doing stint with Peace Corps or as an EMT which shows your interest in med school will help. I'm sorry to say the process for you may not be as easy as taking the MCAT and sending out your application but I think if you truly want to do medicine, there is a way. Btw, carribean or DO is not a bad option. Your stats are very good for DO and some may let you in because of your excellent record. Carribean is another option and probably the 'easiest' one since they will not hold quitting out of med school against you.

I too had worked for a couple of years after graduation before deciding to do the med school thing. I was also premed, took the MCAT etc in college but I never applied. When I decided to do med school again, I had to make a game plan on how to approach it. I contacted some local hospitals about shadowing and volunteering. I started studying for the MCAT. I made a timeline on when I should try to apply, and had backup plans set in place in case I didn't get in. In the end, I had to quit my job and focus on doing it fulltime. My MCAT score expired and retaking it was a pain so I had to really spend time with my books. My lack of upper level bio courses and going four years without seeing a bio text meant I had to take some classes at a local uni.

I also made sure to do some serious volunteering. I wrote about all of this in my application so the adcoms knew about what I had done to improve my application. It was obvious to anyone that my application to med school was not done on a whim. I had to quit my job and move hundreds of miles back home to do all of this. But it was worth it. I got into my top choice.

If you are serious about med school, don't let your application deter you. You need to write up a gameplan. Think about what you can do to make your application better. Contact a few schools and just tell them your situation. Ask them about what you can do to improve it. Be proactive.

Your shot at a top 50 is probably not feasible unless you have some connection to one of the schools (i.e I attend a "top 50" school but the only reason I got in is because it's also my state school so I got 'lucky' with the state I lived in). Your best bet is your state school and the 'unranked' schools. They will most likely be more forgiving about your previous matriculation into med school than one of the 'top' schools. Right now, set your goal to getting *into* a program. Don't think about prestige. They're for people who want to do academic medicine, get competitive residencies, or have an ego boost. You just want to be a doc, right?

 

[billydoc]

Hey thanks everyone. I think I'm basically screwed.

Sounds like getting into any allopathic program will be a hail mary. I'm not averse to going to any med school in the nation, but I really prefer to stay in the US.

I am receptive to the DO option as well.

-MG

Math_Guy, I'd say apply and see what happens. What do you have to loose at this point? I've done it before, so you know the process a lot better than many ppl who have not gone through it themselves. Apply broadly. I don't see why it wouldn't work. But that idea of "top" anything....well...you'd be much better off leaving it outside the door of med schools. I think all these ranking is a premed game anyway. And the "top" school pretty much guarantees that you'll pay top $$$$ for their brand name. But it doesn't guarantee a "top" placement. Quite frankly I've seen enough of these nut jobs from the ivy league walking into the workplace with the expectation if an entitlement. many are miserable, b/c nothing could be right or them. They are so f****n "genius" in their own minds that the "right" environment simply cannot exist by definition. I know you don't sound anything like this bunch, but I'm just observing. I guess what I'm trying to say that you can get in super "top" school where they'll "give you a new colon" in the process of medical education, and still wind up unhappy. So pick up the pieces of your medical carrer where you find them, and start moving forward. the bottom line is you won't know untill you apply, IMHO.

 

[Math_Guy]

Thanks for the words of encouragement NonTradMed.

Honestly, I'm really hurt right now.

I never thought this would turn out into such a big deal. I really wish I was better informed. Not sure how things would have changed, but at least I would have known. It sure is strange how medical schools want compassionate people, yet they give no sympathy to real issues like depression. And I didn't just become depressed overnight. It was the culmination of 8 years of being unhappy with my location. To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I would have done the same thing. I'm a happy chipper person once again, and refuse to go back to that level of mental insanity.

One thing I could do is to move & become a resident of a "favorable" state while I apply to tilt the odds in my favor.

I try for an osteopathic school.

I feel a bit defeated at the moment though.

 

[Math_Guy]

Thanks for the words of encouragement NonTradMed.

Honestly, I'm really hurt right now.

I never thought this would turn out into such a big deal. I really wish I was better informed. Not sure how things would have changed, but at least I would have known. It sure is strange how medical schools want compassionate people, yet they give no sympathy to real issues like depression. And I didn't just become depressed overnight. It was the culmination of 8 years of being unhappy with my location. To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I would have done the same thing. I'm a happy chipper person once again, and refuse to go back to that level of mental insanity.

One thing I could do is to move & become a resident of a "favorable" state while I apply to tilt the odds in my favor.

I may try for an osteopathic school.

I feel a bit defeated at the moment though.

 

[NonTradMed]

Thanks for the words of encouragement NonTradMed.

Honestly, I'm really hurt right now.

I never thought this would turn out into such a big deal. I really wish I was better informed. Not sure how things would have changed, but at least I would have known. It sure is strange how medical schools want compassionate people, yet they give no sympathy to real issues like depression. And I didn't just become depressed overnight. It was the culmination of 8 years of being unhappy with my location. To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I would have done the same thing. I'm a happy chipper person once again, and refuse to go back to that level of mental insanity.

One thing I could do is to move & become a resident of a "favorable" state while I apply to tilt the odds in my favor.

I try for an osteopathic school.

I feel a bit defeated at the moment though.

Well, your depression can be a good reason for leaving med school and I guess you can try to explain your leaving through that. I'm not sure how well that will reflect on your app though, perhaps one of the people involved in the admissions game can provide for more insight.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel defeated, but if you read around the forums, you'll find that the process is also very hard for others. It's just that your problem is more unique (i.e most others have academic issues).

The states which are friendly to their instaters are TX and some of the midwest and southern states which reserves ALL their seats for instaters and/or have lower admissions numbers. Buy the MSAR book and see about that if you want. However, unless you live in CA, moving your state residency probably won't help you as much as getting involved in the medical field to boost up your resume. Take it one step at a time. Make a few inquiries. Sign up for volunteering. Start studying for the MCAT. There's no need to quit your job and move just yet.

 

[notdeadyet]

Well, your depression can be a good reason for leaving med school and I guess you can try to explain your leaving through that.

I think that will come across as a red herring. The OP suffered from depression (as he finished three masters programs with great GPAs in five years) so he dropped out of an MD/PhD program.

If he reapplied after a year or two of treatment and re-evaluation, claiming a bout of depression might fly. But pursuing another career for eight years in the interim? He's a career changer.

 

[LADoc00]

That is a whopper of a post, but I love the quote:

So, after my 3rd masters’ degree, I decided to take control over my life

 

[g293]

If I were on the Adcom, I would think, "Wow - this person wants rock the boat, give up 'the bling', live ghetto fabulous, went back to school, rocked the MCAT, survived on pb&j, all to be a doctor. This person must be really committed."

Just my 2 cents.

I think I should do some risk management and rock the MCAT first. If I bomb it, my decision is made for me. I concur that I would need mid 30's to be competitive.

I'm a doc and was 10 years out of undergrad when I started med school. Worked with the admissions process as a student rep too. Schools are not excited about you giving up the bling lifestyle "all to be a doctor". They have hundreds of applicants who are giving up high paying jobs and see this every day. What they want to be convinced of is WHY you are doing this now. That is actually a very difficult question to answer (you can't say "because I want to help people") and is made more difficult by you dropping out of a program once. On the other hand, it opens the door wide open for you to explain why you are coming back to medicine and why things are different now.

Take the MCAT--what can it hurt. If you do well, give it a whirl--if you don't it pretty much answers the question for you. Good luck!

 

[coredump]

Looks like many of the posters have already hit the big points (broaden range of [ranked] schools, volunteer, upward battle, etc.).

While I agree that your application can be raise a few eyebrows, I don't think you're doomed by any means.

The 1st step you should take is to set up appointments with admissions deans of medical schools you realistically plan on attending, and hear what they have to say about your application. As long as it's during the "off" season of application cycles (~summer), they should be happy to talk to you.

Some schools might say, "you have no shot here", others a, "do this-and-that to fix your application, and apply". Follow their advice, and keep them updated.

If you have any q's, feel free to PM me... and good luck.

-cd

 

[Pemberley]

The one thing that wasn't crystal clear from your post was your motivation for going back now. I am not, and never have been, involved in med school admission, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your motivation will have to be

• more than just lack of personal interaction in your current job
• more than just that you want to help people (high school teachers help people! so do nurses, policemen, EMTs, soldiers, etc...)
• crystal-clear and compelling enough to override your history

I wouldn't presume to say that you don't have a compelling motivation; what I'm saying is that you haven't successfully communicated it.

Shadowing a sub-specialty that I could really get into helped me clarify and intensify my communication of motivation just in time for interview season. I think you may need something even more intense; some long-standing involvement with medicine by the time you apply. I don't know what is appropriate for you, whether working for a year or two in a medical field at a pay cut would begin to demonstrate commitment. But I'm guessing you need something fairly unambiguous.

One thing that was crystal clear from your posts so far was a pre-occupation with rankings. You'll probably want to lose that and focus on getting any degree from any school as your holy grail of opportunities.

The following arguments, in my opinion, are prime opportunities to get your application circular-filed:

The kept on saying “if you love what you do, then it does not matter where you are.” I don’t think advice that applies to everyone. A lot of my growth as a person is derived from my broader environment. It DOES matter A LOT for me where I actually live.

As I type this note 6 years later, I am blessed to be able to look at my fancy eco-drive watch, and think about how fortunate I am to have a fancy apartment right on Wall Street!

I feel like an outward career in medicine is a much truer representation of my inner self.

Moving to New York catalyzed an explosion of personal and spiritual growth. It is in this crazy city of outward expression and materialism that I felt a bolt of light and discovered a profound omnipresent inner bliss and truth.

Bear in mind that nothing I've typed comes from personal experience on an adcomm; just my reactions from reading your post. Take with a grain of salt and use if helpful.

 

[RxnMan]

OP, to reiterate what others have said, you have serious issues to resolve before you can be a competitive medical school candidate.

As an alternative, have you considered taking your desire to help others and using the degrees you already have? Math, finance, and statistics could be applied to epidemiology through organizations like the CDC and NIH. You could also work for the World Bank (or similar organization) and help third-world countries build bridges and dams. Fresh water and freedom from disease will go farther in saving lives than spending a lifetime as a physician.

 

[ShyRem]

Not trying to pass the buck here, but your situation is rather.. unique. I think really your best bet for some really great spot-on advice would be to make an appointment with a nearby med school or two. Or a few not-so-close med schools. Although I'm rather afraid they'll state pretty much what njbmd said already. Personally, I'd rather make every single stinkin' med school tell me NO than tell it to myself. Let us know what they say.

 

[Math_Guy]

Thanks guys. That seems sensible.

How does one go about making an appointment to visit a dean of an Adcom. I'd love to be face to face with someone live.

For example, I already know what I need to do (i.e. clinical exp, high MCATs, etc.), but I need to know if I'm still going to be screwed by this stain on my background (which I never knew about until now).

Do you just call up the school and say, "Uhm Hi. I'm Johny and I need a shoulder to cry on. Can you pass me the hankie while I tell you my story?!"

Seriously. How does this work? Is this an underground thing they do for non-traditional types? I imagine they would get flooded with tons of applicants. Don't they say something like, "Sorry - we cannot meet with prospective applicants until you have been offered acceptance...."

 

[Math_Guy]

The one thing that wasn't crystal clear from your post was your motivation for going back now. ....I wouldn't presume to say that you don't have a compelling motivation; what I'm saying is that you haven't successfully communicated it. ...One thing that was crystal clear from your posts so far was a pre-occupation with rankings. You'll probably want to lose that and focus on getting any degree from any school as your holy grail of opportunities.

Regarding my motivation. Yes - I haven't done a good job on this on this post. That is because I plan to spend a good year gaining clinical experience where I can have a more tangible discussion. How can one communicate a feeling? It isn't until feelings manifest into action that people will believe my feelings. I suppose if I had 1 year of clinical experience under my belt, then I can make a more tangible case.

I forgot about the rankings already? Huh? Rankings? What are those?

 

[RxnMan]

...How does one go about making an appointment to visit a dean of an Adcom. I'd love to be face to face with someone live...

Since the main AMCAS season is over, they may have enough time that you can just call them up yourself and schedule something.

...Seriously. How does this work? Is this an underground thing they do for non-traditional types?...

There's no handshake or password - just look up a local school's website and their admissions page for the name and # of their dean. You'll get the secretary, but ask for whomever does the dean's scheduling and go from there. Good luck.

 

[Math_Guy]

Not central to this thread:

I feel strongly about certain principles about life in general, but not sure I would mention them on my application. Although I have tremendous respect for science and the allopathic system, I think there is a lot to be said for "alternative medicine." I chuckle when I hear that world "alternative" because for me it is actually very mainstream. I am healthier and more vibrant than I have every felt!

It is a fact of quantum physics that all "things" in the world exist fundamentally as a probabilistic measure of a wave energy particle. There is nothing as pure matter. Everything is fundamentally energy, with manifestations as particles outlined by probability amplitudes.

We manifested into beautiful bodies all from one cell, called a zygote. And this cell is made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms which are 99.9% empty space. If you take these subatomic particles and crash them into a super collider, you get energy --- not matter! Just another reminder that we are nothing but bundles of energy!! The fact that we see solid matter is more due to the limitations of the eye versus reality.

To tap into one's fundamental nature is to tap into this source of energy that ultimately unifies the entire universe. There are many health benefits by simply discovering this side of ones self, and there are some prominent physicians who have done research in this area: Dean Ornish, Mehmet Oz, Andrew Weil, etc.

It sounds a bit flaky/loopy/non-scientific, but please bear in mind that I am a mathematician with a very critical eye for anything that sounds too flaky.

BTW, many of these concepts have been around for thousands of years in the east. Just b/c they cannot be proven in a laboratory does not deem them ineffictive -- especially when there is overwhelming clinical evidence that this stuff works!

Again, not sure if I'd mention any of this to an Adcom....unless of course, Andrew Weil is reading my application!

 

[Math_Guy]

But what if I meet with the Dean, tell the truth, and get yelled at for committing such a horrific crime (ie leaving medical school).

Perhaps I should brand the scarlet letter Q (for Quitter) on my forhead and come up with a really slick story before I go?

I'm just worried of being thrashed by the local adcoms.

They may ask me to leave the city boundaries. I will never be able to vote. They will send me to Canada!

After all, I did quit medical school!

Does going to Sunday school count for anything?

 

[medeng]

If you overcome the problems of your leaving a previous MD/Ph.D program, you have the problems of your GPA. Your undergraduate GPA is lower than the average matriculant (medical schools across the country) and much lower than the matriculants at the schools that you seek to enter. Your first Masters GPA is pretty low and the other two, that are reasonably acceptable are not likely to help you much since graduate GPAs are not weighted as strongly as undergraduate GPA.

FYI, Champaign Urbana is in the same league as MIT of engineering schools. People will turn down Stanford and Harvard to study engineering at Champaign Urbana. MIT, Champaign Urbana, and Berkley have the best engineering programs in the nation, bar none.

Having taken both engineering undergraduate courses and pre-med courses students use as pre-recs, I can safely say the pre-med courses are much, much easier in comparasion. A 3.5 in engineering is very impressive, and a 3.5 from Champaign Urbana is extremely impressive. Not all majors have their top students with 4.0 GPAs.

To the original poster: Good luck with your applications!

 

[Math_Guy]

If I beg, what are my chances of getting back into medical school (ie no PhD) at the U of IL?

[I can stomach the 4 years of being there at this point. I have gotten my life experiences....]

I feel sort of awkward even making the phone call! I've never been good at asking for favors, let alone begging!

 

[emgirl]

OK. What I hear loud and clear is that a top 10 med school may be a stretch, but I think a top 40 is not out of the Q?

I'm a bit scared though, b/c the person who sits on an adcom basically says my grades are on the low end, and I'm not even sure if any program can save me now.

BTW, I am prepared to quit the Armani suit lifestyle, move to the ghetto, and gain clinical experience. I know this would involve scut work, but that's the easy part for me.

If I were on the Adcom, I would think, "Wow - this person wants rock the boat, give up 'the bling', live ghetto fabulous, went back to school, rocked the MCAT, survived on pb&j, all to be a doctor. This person must be really committed."

Just my 2 cents.

I think I should do some risk management and rock the MCAT first. If I bomb it, my decision is made for me. I concur that I would need mid 30's to be competitive.

Oh my god you are so arrogant. Stop saying that you "will move to the ghetto" and give up your "Armanis"- as if that qualifies you to be a dr and makes you a more attractive applicant than the rest of us. By the way, nobody thinks of UI as a top state school except you. Your GPA is not bad but please stop acting like you went to Harvard and your 3.5 is somehow superior to everyone else's [higher] gpa. Oh and being an actuary does not give you bonus pts either- there are tons of non traditional premeds out there coming into medicine from interesting and unique careers- your actuary background does not mean you have a great deal to offer medical schools. And get over being convinced you are top-5 of top-40 med school material (or top whatever). You will need to apply broadly and be happy with where you get in, regardless of the ranking. But your biggest challenge is going to be getting adcoms to overlook the fact that you (1) quit and MD program (2) quit a PhD program (though you spent 5 years in it and managed to finish 3 masters degrees?) and (3) you are extremely arrogant. I know this sounds harsh but you need a serious reality check.

 

[emgirl]

But what if I meet with the Dean, tell the truth, and get yelled at for committing such a horrific crime (ie leaving medical school).

Perhaps I should brand the scarlet letter Q (for Quitter) on my forhead and come up with a really slick story before I go?

I'm just worried of being thrashed by the local adcoms.

They may ask me to leave the city boundaries. I will never be able to vote. They will send me to Canada!

After all, I did quit medical school!

Does going to Sunday school count for anything?

Stop being such a martyr. No one forced you to leave med school. You left the program when you were 26 or 27- that's not that young to play the foolish youth card. Call the adcoms and see what you need to do to rectify the situation, but stop whining that you QUITTING med school shouldn't be held against you, etc. It's a huge sign of flakiness and you need to take responsibility for it. Just accept what you did and move on. The advice about calling the adcoms is good. Just focus on what you can do in the future to improve your chances.

 

[Math_Guy]

Hey,
I can't comment too much on any of the other stuff (i.e. dropping out of Medical School) but I am a career-changing engineer who has been accepted this cycle to a top-20 medical school, and may yet be accepted to more, so I will put some of these comments into perspective:

1. Your GPA is great for engineering from a top engineering school. .... Engineering programs at top schools are TOUGH, and at least some ADCOMs know it.

For starters, Congrats on making the switch.

Some Adcoms know it? Which ones? I would figure more like ALL Adcoms, but something tells me this is not the case.

I also get the impression that all GPAs get viewed more or less the same. SO getting a 4.0 in leisure studies at arm pit state is better than getting a 3.6 in economics at the University of Chicago? Is this true? If that is true, that is crazy.

To be quite blunt, ceteris paribus, engineering degrees are is much harder than bio majors. I think most would not argue with that. i.e. an engineer can go romp all over any bio class, but I don't think the converse is true. Likewise earning decent marks at a top school is harder than shwag state college.

The Q in my mind is why Adcoms don't recognize this. I've already been dissed by one adcom here, "you GPA is a bit low...."! That's a bit out of context in my opinion. But then again, everyone has an opinion.

BTW, I'm not upset at this adcom. Actually, I'm quite grateful that he/she tried to be a helping hand. I'm just confused - that's all.

 

[Math_Guy]

Guys,

I'm just trying to keep it light hearted here. I hope you can seperate my dry humor from reality.

Trust me. I got the message.

Rankings? Huh? What are those?

I don't even own an Armanis suit....

Soo, I was justa kidding folks! Things can come across very differently in type unfortunately....

I understand that the quitting part will be a huge issue. Thanks for all the words of wisdom though. I'll put on my game face and have a face to face with someone real.

 

[Law2Doc]

If I beg, what are my chances of getting back into medical school (ie no PhD) at the U of IL?

[I can stomach the 4 years of being there at this point. I have gotten my life experiences....]

I feel sort of awkward even making the phone call! I've never been good at asking for favors, let alone begging!

I actually think that's worth a try. I'm not sure you want to beg as much as fall on your sword. An in person meeting would be best, but by phone if that's not realistic. Explain the situation, tell them at the time you weren't focused but that you've grown up a lot since then and now would love to return. And ask them what you'd need to do to get back in. Like all the others, it's still a hail mary, but at least at your original school they can perhaps chalk it up as a leave of absence rather than a brand new application with a big red flag.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

For starters, Congrats on making the switch.

Some Adcoms know it? Which ones? I would figure more like ALL Adcoms, but something tells me this is not the case.

I also get the impression that all GPAs get viewed more or less the same. SO getting a 4.0 in leisure studies at arm pit state is better than getting a 3.6 in economics at the University of Chicago? Is this true? If that is true, that is crazy.

To be quite blunt, ceteris paribus, engineering degrees are is much harder than bio majors. I think most would not argue with that. i.e. an engineer can go romp all over any bio class, but I don't think the converse is true. Likewise earning decent marks at a top school is harder than shwag state college.

The Q in my mind is why Adcoms don't recognize this. I've already been dissed by one adcom here, "you GPA is a bit low...."! That's a bit out of context in my opinion. But then again, everyone has an opinion.

BTW, I'm not upset at this adcom. Actually, I'm quite grateful that he/she tried to be a helping hand. I'm just confused - that's all.

I can't give you a direct answer as to which ADCOMS recognize the challenges faced by engineers. The indirect answer that I CAN give you is: Apparently UTSW No two medical schools are alike, so it is hard to make generalizations about how GPAs are percieved, but I certainly think that most ADCOMS are aware that competition at top undergrad. Universities is a little more fierce than at the local LAC. That's why your MCAT score is important -- all applicants take substantially the same MCAT, so it is the "great equalizer" in Medical School admissions.

As for why most ADCOM members DON'T recognize the toughness of engineering programs, that answer is simple: Most ADCOM members/doctors are not engineers and/or do not have an engineering background. Having been through both engineering and premed programs, I generally agree with most of what you are saying, but I would bite my tongue (even around here,) if I were you. No one likes to hear that their major is "easier" than any other major, so you're not going to get much sympathy with that attitude.

 

[braluk]

Why dont you first enroll in a special masters prgoram to strengthen that application after taking the MCAT. That way, you show that you have the knowhow, and not applying cold-turkey- shows some "recommitment" to the field you already left. As well, your personal statement will probably become your best friend as you do have alot of explaining to do.

And as Law2Doc will probably agree with me, being a career changer, or nontrad, is not one that can hurt, in fact, it might even help. But career changing from a phD track/MD track is one that might be difficult to overcome. You could always say that you found the PhD aspect of it uncompelling and you were still coming on your own, having been naive and 21-22. Having no community service or volunteering experience may also take away from your assertion that, health service is something that makes you feel satisifed. Going into your field after medicine made it seem like you were money hungry, after all, take it from an adcoms point of view. "so this guy got into med school...then left to go to wall street, now he wants to come back? Why? Because he wanted the cash? And he doesn't even have any healthcare volunteer/altruistic experiences as of late to back up his claim that he wants back in?" Again all this should be addressed with your Personal Statement. Personally, you should definitely apply broadly. You have the money for it, and if you're already committeed to it, I wouldn't worry about where you get in. "Halfway decent" should be subsequent to getting a medical education, which is anywhere you go in the US. I also think you should put yourself into a special masters program first. If you are interested, go to the postbac forum, and look under my thread "official guide to special masters programs"

Good luck.

 

[Math_Guy]

Hey thanks. Good suggestion. I'll check out the thread.

Like I said, I'm willing to do all of the above. Go back to school, volunteer, get clinical experience, whatever it takes. This is a good brainstorming session to help me prioritize my game plan.

I have another thought.

I'm quite interested in the intersection of alternative and western medicine. What if I were to get my a degree Oriental Medicine? That would involve science courses, as well as clinical exposure. How would that look? Is interest in alternative care frowned upon?

I could easily get into a program in Oriental Medicine, and complete a masters degree with 3.5 years of full time study. (doctorates are just now being introduced, and are not required for practice). The thing is that I could enroll basically immediately vs the timing issues of a MS in medical science program.

This would be a dream for me. The thing is that these programs are pricy as well. Also, if you have an MD - you can get trained in Oriental Medicine pretty quickly (since they usually give you exemptions for the science courses taken in Med School).

There are plenty of reasons why I would not want to stop with just a MS in Oriental Medicine. For starters, it lacks all the cutting edge scientific allopathic approach. Secondly, the market for alternative care is small because of lack of knowlege and insurance reimbursement issues. Thirdly, MD's/DO's still have more credibility with the general public that alternative practitioners. The same advice can be given from 2 people, but people give more kudos to MD's and DO's (in general).