General Admissions & OTCAS Lessons I learned for the next application Cycle

[alansda]

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[inari87]

I won't even respond with an ad hominem attack to you as you did to me. I brought up a relevant point, as I see it, about the lack of diversity in occupational therapy programs: if you think that's "trolling" then you clearly have to resort to attacking the person because you can't come up with an argument to support your case. I find that sad.
I never once attacked you, or attacked anyone, I simply stated that there is a very big gender imbalance in occupational therapy and there doesn't seem to be much resolve to solve that.
As a white male I can tell you that I've yet to see the dividends of this "privilege" of which you all speak. It's certainly not paying off in my life. I've worked hard for everything I have, and I'll work as resolutely and as hard for whatever I do in my life. I don't want a free ticket for being a man: I'm simply pointing to the fact that OT is massively an imbalanced field. We would not tolerate this with race or if it was a reverse situation (5% women) without remedying it.

Again, please, please, please do some reading on white privilege. No one is saying you don't work hard. We're saying you have many advantages that others don't have by virtue of your skin color and your gender. No one assumes you to be a thief, no one assumes you shouldn't get a management position because you're probably going to go on maternity leave, mo one assumes you don't have a college degree. There are countless more. And the idea that OT schools are actively discriminating against men, which is precisely what you're suggesting, is absurd and offensive. If you present ideas anywhere like this in your essays of interviews I'm going to go ahead and let you know definitively that it's why you're not getting in.

By the way, I am a white male. I'm more likely to get into management positions, less likely to be accosted by police, less likely to be assumed to be a bad tipper or shoplifter or ex-convict, and despite what you said, I was absolutely aided by being a man in applying for OT school. If two applicants are equal in every way I'd bet literally I everything I've ever come in contact with that they school will first admit the man. Males have privilege to begin with, but the schools ARE trying to increase the diversity of their classes - but the reality is that men are applying to PT and med school not OT and nursing.

Also, you say we wouldn't tolerate this with race. I'm curious as to how racially balanced you assume the field to be. I'm gonna give you a spoiler alert - it's very white.

 

[mgeagle]

I won't even respond with an ad hominem attack to you as you did to me. I brought up a relevant point, as I see it, about the lack of diversity in occupational therapy programs: if you think that's "trolling" then you clearly have to resort to attacking the person because you can't come up with an argument to support your case. I find that sad.
I never once attacked you, or attacked anyone, I simply stated that there is a very big gender imbalance in occupational therapy and there doesn't seem to be much resolve to solve that.
As a white male I can tell you that I've yet to see the dividends of this "privilege" of which you all speak. It's certainly not paying off in my life. I've worked hard for everything I have, and I'll work as resolutely and as hard for whatever I do in my life. I don't want a free ticket for being a man: I'm simply pointing to the fact that OT is massively an imbalanced field. We would not tolerate this with race or if it was a reverse situation (5% women) without remedying it.

Inari87 hit it right on the nail and deserves a medal for what he just said, and just to coattail off of his enlightening post...... research shows that a white male is more likely to get paid more than a black male, white female, black female, etc. for the EXACT same job, what's even more interesting is that I myself have heard others actually experience this. Does this mean that the white male does not work hard? Absolutely not! Some of my closest buddies who work their TAILS OFF and whom I admire are white males. It is simply a matter that as a white male you may get a little bit more benefit out of hard work in certain situations than those of other races. There isn't even 20% of OTs nationwide that are not white. I volunteered at several OT/PT clinics with a total from all places combined of about 22 OTs and I ran into 2 therapists that were not white so apparently the racial imbalance is accepted to some extent. Just work hard and make yourself a great applicant and take what society gives you and make it grand.

 

[BLS614]

It wasn't my intention to wade into a political discussion, but I guess that is very hard to do once we have touched on two sensitive subjects: race and sex. I don't deny that historically there have been many injustices towards minorities (women also); I was only making the point that being a white male is not some "golden ticket" in life that some do portray it as being. I have a Texan accent and people make a lot of assumptions that you are ignorant or have certain views on a whole slew of issues just based on an accent; yeah I sure can feel that white privilege in our society.
There is no affirmative action approach for men in OT, just to be clear, but there is for race in all fields. I have a black male friend who was informed that they will add nearly a full GPA point to many of his medical school applications simply by virtue of his race (ignore the fact that his family is rich and he does not suffer the socio economic problems that inner city blacks do). I think that in some sectors there is reverse discrimination and that being a straight white male makes you an outsider. I sure do not feel as if things are easier for me; the US is a meritocracy: did you notice our president is black? Here in Oklahoma we have suffered our trials and tribulations with race, and I think we are much more sensible in our approach, and recognize the errors of our past, these days.
Back to OT: In other fields with a massive gender or racial imbalance departments take an activist approach making it a major goal to recruit women (as in engineering) or minority candidates. There is no such approach in OT. I don't think race or sex or any of these things should play a role in admissions; but I find it rather telling that when it comes to minority candidates and women we have a strong push for diversity, but when occupational therapy is 90%+ women you rarely hear a peep about this being a major problem.
Regarding the "research" showing that white men get paid more: I'm skeptical. I've seen a lot of research that shows that men make more than women for the same positions. They factor in women taking leave from their positions to have their children and or raise them! I've seen other figures that claim men receive more promotions: they do not account for the fact that women often choose to place their family lives (understandably so for many women) ahead of their career advancement. Men don't have that reality (of childbirth) so it's understandable that we remain and are promoted more often into leadership roles. I think it is also fair to say that women and men emphasize different aspects that are valuable in a work place: studies show that women intuit more and also seek agreement more with others in a workplace, men are more likely to seek to convince others of their position. The latter is more likely to be perceived as a leadership quality in our culture I think.
Is there racism and sexism in our society: yes. I also think there is reverse racism and sexism as well.
@inari87: Men are much more represented in nursing departments across this country, and that's a fact. A woman who applies to an engineering department in this country (or a black candidate for that matter) will be swooped up faster than you can say "interview". I think it's a good thing in some respects that these departments want diversity. I have a problem with the fact that it's seen as a pressing issue in those departments, but not in departments where women dominate. Diversity seems to be a one way street when it comes to OT.

Seriously? You probably won't make many friends on here, or in life, engaging in a diatribe on "reverse discrimination." Women and minorities are often recruited because they have historically been underrepresented in nearly ALL places of professional employment. I'm sorry you feel like OT doesn't do a good job recruiting white males into their ranks. This seems to be one of only a hand full of fields like this, so consider yourself lucky you aren't actively discriminated against very often (even though not one ounce of me believes you weren't chosen for an OT school because you are a white man). As nearly everyone has pointed out to you, no one has insinuated things come easy to you because of your gender or your race, yet you still get defensive about how hard you work. Clearly, you don't understand the depths of sexism (as you seem to justify it with childbirth) or racism (of which little was mentioned in your post other than "our President is black!," apparently problem solved) in our society. I strongly suggest you take a good look at your own privileges as described by others in this forum. Being able to recognize your own privilege is so, SO important to this profession. We are working with people facing illness and disabilities after all. I know you have also indicated an interest in counseling and social work. I can tell you without hesitation that your above message would be totally dismissed by nearly every reputable social work school in this country. I feel as though the theme you have carried throughout these threads is of complaining and playing devils advocate. Clearly, it's not going so well for you. People are trying to help each other on these boards. Maybe it's time to take everyone's advice and do some serious reflection instead of playing victim and whining about things you can't control.

 

[inari87]

I think what you don't understand, OSU, is that it doesn't matter how things have gone for you as an individual. Discrimination and privilege is systemic. You've never been discriminated against for being a straight white man because it's not possible for that to happen. Individuals may choose to be dinguses (though I seriously doubt "being an outsider" means anything more than feeling uncomfortable in a room full of minorities), but you're never going to face systemic, institutionalized discrimination. Not in OT school applications, not in work, and not in life. Neither am I, again, being a white male.

"they do not account for the fact that women often choose to place their family lives (understandably so for many women) ahead of their career advancement."

Just look at that! That statement right there demonstrates systemic oppression and our society's rigid expectations around gender roles. It's understandable for women because that's their expected role in society - to raise children and not to work, or to make money. No one would ever say "understandably so for many men" because we expect men to work, get promotions, and make money. As a result, many more men are successful in their professional lives than are women.

I'm going to check out of this thread because it's painful, but take heed - with your GPA and observation hours, this kind of attitude is very likely a factor in why you're not being admitted to OT school.

 

[mgeagle]

It wasn't my intention to wade into a political discussion, but I guess that is very hard to do once we have touched on two sensitive subjects: race and sex. I don't deny that historically there have been many injustices towards minorities (women also); I was only making the point that being a white male is not some "golden ticket" in life that some do portray it as being. I have a Texan accent and people make a lot of assumptions that you are ignorant or have certain views on a whole slew of issues just based on an accent; yeah I sure can feel that white privilege in our society.
There is no affirmative action approach for men in OT, just to be clear, but there is for race in all fields. I have a black male friend who was informed that they will add nearly a full GPA point to many of his medical school applications simply by virtue of his race (ignore the fact that his family is rich and he does not suffer the socio economic problems that inner city blacks do). I think that in some sectors there is reverse discrimination and that being a straight white male makes you an outsider. I sure do not feel as if things are easier for me; the US is a meritocracy: did you notice our president is black? Here in Oklahoma we have suffered our trials and tribulations with race, and I think we are much more sensible in our approach, and recognize the errors of our past, these days.
Back to OT: In other fields with a massive gender or racial imbalance departments take an activist approach making it a major goal to recruit women (as in engineering) or minority candidates. There is no such approach in OT. I don't think race or sex or any of these things should play a role in admissions; but I find it rather telling that when it comes to minority candidates and women we have a strong push for diversity, but when occupational therapy is 90%+ women you rarely hear a peep about this being a major problem.
Regarding the "research" showing that white men get paid more: I'm skeptical. I've seen a lot of research that shows that men make more than women for the same positions. They factor in women taking leave from their positions to have their children and or raise them! I've seen other figures that claim men receive more promotions: they do not account for the fact that women often choose to place their family lives (understandably so for many women) ahead of their career advancement. Men don't have that reality (of childbirth) so it's understandable that we remain and are promoted more often into leadership roles. I think it is also fair to say that women and men emphasize different aspects that are valuable in a work place: studies show that women intuit more and also seek agreement more with others in a workplace, men are more likely to seek to convince others of their position. The latter is more likely to be perceived as a leadership quality in our culture I think.
Is there racism and sexism in our society: yes. I also think there is reverse racism and sexism as well.
@inari87: Men are much more represented in nursing departments across this country, and that's a fact. A woman who applies to an engineering department in this country (or a black candidate for that matter) will be swooped up faster than you can say "interview". I think it's a good thing in some respects that these departments want diversity. I have a problem with the fact that it's seen as a pressing issue in those departments, but not in departments where women dominate. Diversity seems to be a one way street when it comes to OT.

I took a Psychology/sociology of women class that showed the research proving what you said in the last post of men getting paid more than women, what you said is true however as my professor carefully pointed out those studies were done with white males and not minority males which is a completely different ball game in certain instances. Be skeptical of the research all you want but as I said before I have also ran into this from personal accounts and in my eyes reality can trump research in certain cases because research can be flawed at times. I merely suggest research because it is the gold standard in our society when you are trying to argue a point and rightfully so because scholars try their best to limit errors and bring out the facts. The whole "our president is black" thing you mentioned is laughable beyond all reason. Congress (the entity that matters the most in the government in terms of making laws) is made up of a vast majority of white males with females and minorities not even remotely close to being somewhat represented. The rich rule the country and the vast majority of business owners, CEOs, high level supervisors, high level managers, high level officers, and other prestigious positions in the corporate world are white males so I'm sorry if I am not very convinced on the abundance and the inclusiveness of this "meritocracy" thing for everyone including women and minorities because 1 man who is half minority made it to the top and became president when I could name instance after instance when a minority or woman (especially a woman, ladies I feel bad for y'all) plays the whole meritocracy thing fair and square and gets blatantly cheated. You know the funny thing is the more we discuss this inequality in society the less I am bothered by OT being majority women cause hey let's face it they have had the short end of the stick for centuries. Would more male representation in OT be nice to see? Sure, but if it doesn't happen anytime soon, whatever, that's life and I most definitely will continue to live and do my best to make myself an asset to society in whatever way possible. You are a very intelligent guy osu789 and stand firm in what you believe and will state your point with vigor, if OT doesn't work out I seriously think you should consider going to law school, they could use someone with your enthusiasm and willingness to state their case in a professional manner.

 

[TexasOT2be]

@osu789 Well said! You have never once instigated an argument and have refused to act childish and revert to name calling on this forum. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree with quite a lot of what you say about reverse discrimination. I don't know why people feel the need to argue every single thing you say.

As a single white female, I have no shot in h#?! of ever receiving a grant or scholarship, as they are all aimed at every other ethnicity and/or single mothers. But do I harbor ill will towards those recipients? No. Why? Because there are other factors in life where being a female works to my advantage. Life isn't fair and everyone isn't always treated equally. On both sides of the scale.

That being said, for all of you on this forum that get all hot under the collar about different viewpoints from your own, please remember that they are just "opinions" and we are all entitled to them. No need to attack and make assumptions.

The bottom line is that we are all super stressed and on edge waiting to get an email from an OT school that will change our lives. Right? Hang in there, we can do this!

 

[inari87]

Sorry, that's not the bottom line. This is a much more serious issue than being stressed out about OT school. You talk about opinions as if there aren't issues that have a right answer. This is one such issue. White people are not actively discriminated against. Men aren't either. White men don't have a golden ticket, but we do enjoy advantages that others don't and I'm not tolerant of the idea that thinking otherwise is just another opinion. It's wrong and it helps promote systemic oppression of others.

 

[alg5443]

I definitely have to agree that certain groups of people have advantages in different areas of life. I have had this instilled in me through resident assistant training for the past 3 years and I'm very thankful for that opportunity which opened my eyes to how others feel. My favorite example, which may seem silly and small to some is the color of bandaids. What color are they and who's skin tone do they match? I never ever once thought of that, but I never "had to" because these privileges just come along with being a white female. While the color of bandaids is a smaller example, the issue extends to many different areas of life which have already been stated in this thread.
However, this is way off topic from the original post and may be better suited in the socio topics on this network. I can try and bring it back on topic by stating that OSU, you were most likely not denied admission to OT school because you are a male. You definitely have other red flags in your app that you need to figure out. Also, if you feel you were discriminated against in the process because you are a male, or if you would like to propose that more males should be accepted to OT programs, I would contact AOTA or the programs you applied to with your concerns.

 

[alg5443]

I understand that Texas schools have a very high GPA requirement. If that is the case then you should have applied more broadly to schools that fit you best. Going back to the main point of the thread, I think this is the best advice you gave, apply to schools based on fit. Obviously, you have extensive volunteer research, I have already addressed that by saying our stats are basically identical... I have received acceptances, which is why I am very very surprised this hasn't been a good cycle for you. That is why I keep saying there is a red flag somewhere or if you only applied to Texas schools, they might not have been the best fit. From what you're saying, I think your app is strong and you have a great shot at OT. No need to get defensive and justify your caring for others, I get that, otherwise I doubt you'd be going into OT. I also just wanted to suggest what you can do with your feelings about the male imbalance in OT, you spoke strongly about it so I thought I'd give you some resources to voice your opinion and try to change things.
With that being said, I'm out of this thread. It seems to be full of negativity and I don't need that in my life. I hope everything works out the best for you.

 

[BLS614]

There seems to be a lot of aggression here by people who are arguing for more tolerance in our society. I'm not going to resort to ad hominem attacks because it's wrong to do. I believe in being a straight shooter and speaking directly; I don't speak in codes, you can consider that a part of my Texas/Oklahoma upbringing.
I disagree with the person who said there is no such thing as reverse discrimination against whites and men; there is pressing desire (a good one) by hiring managers and schools to recruit minority and women candidates in many fields; the fact of the matter is that white men are at a disadvantage when this is the case and minorities and women are at an advantage. It's reverse discrimination because they aren't simply looking at the empirical data and achievements of the candidate but rather are weighting their race or sex, and I do find that wrong. What I find particularly wrong is that women and minority applicants have an advantage when applying to white male dominated fields, but men do not have one when applying to OT. Many fields would find men being excluded to such a large degree as they are in OT to be a pressing problem that must be remedied: not in OT.
@TexasOT2be : It's a texas thing, we call it as it is. I'm also a fair minded person. Take note at their intolerance and how some are saying that you can't possibly be a good OT unless you accept that white people are dominant in society and we all have more rights. Give me a break.
We're fast becoming a minority majority country and we have a black president, and we still have anachronisms like Affirmative action programs which discriminate against white applicants and all we keep hearing about is how racist society is and how special it is to be white.
@alg5443: Schools in Texas have extremely high GPA requirements fyi. You don't know me or the extensive volunteer and caring that I am engaged in for my society. I'm a veteran and I'd like to work for the VA to provide care for veterans (yes, regardless of their sex or race).

I guess there is no sense in arguing. You just aren't getting it. You are essentially advocating for white males to benefit from affirmative action when getting into OT school, yet you describe affirmative action as an anachronism. A white male's experience getting into OT is a droplet in the ocean compared to the discrimination that women and minorities experienced (and sometimes still experience) for centuries. If you want to cry white male victim in the process, then you really should contact AOTA. I hope things work about better for you next cycle.

 

[alansda]

I removed my previous post since I now see you were serious at your beliefs and not just trolling--I apologize. Though I strongly disagree with your positions for the same reasons that @BLS614 @inari87 and @mgeagle have eloquently stated, speaking as a minority male student here.

For kicks and giggles, here's Louis CK's bit on being white (NSFW language)

 

[lcs2074]

I am not going to add to all the debate and controversy, I just want to address the issue of gender/diversity imbalance in OT.

I don't believe there is active discrimination against men or cultural minorities in OT, in fact I'm sure that if a male and female applicant with very similar stats were to apply to an OT grad program (which probably happens fairly often considering the increased competitiveness) 9 times out of 10 the male will be chosen. That said, there is an imbalance in the applicants or at least in those applicants that meet the top of the qualifications, and I'm sure more could be done to recruit and encourage those minorities to apply and enter the field.

There actually is an organization called BrOT, created by male occupational therapy students, that does aim at just that, so you cannot say no one in OT is aware of this imbalance and not trying to change it. OSU789, since this seems to be something you're passionate and have concerns about, you may want to contact them. Especially check out the "brOT OT Practice Magazine Article" under Resources. This is an interesting website/group all y'all may want to check out.
http://www.brotmovement.com/

 

[Otsunshine56]

If true, then that's the school's problem. Obviously, the field isn't discriminating against males. You have plenty of evidence here to the contrary. In fact, it's just the opposite: the field is actively recruiting males. You can see as much in certain publications by AOTA.

No offense, but it sounds like you're jumping to conclusions based on a bad applications cycle. I'm just taking a stab at this, but you sound young and guns blazing. Calm down, don't jump to conclusions (especially in your SOP), work on letters and GRE and diversify your hours. There seem to be a good number of guys on this forum who have succeeded in their journey. Stay positive and you should be fine!

 

[lcs2074]

I will tell you that I applied to a school that is currently doing interviews. I inquired if I received an interview, I was told "we have not interviewed a single man yet, so no you haven't been invited yet." I know many of you will question my credentials or my LORs or my hours; I am not a perfect candidate -- no one is. I have a 3.75 GPA and very good references, and about 80 observation hours to date. One in acute care and another in pediatrics (I can strengthen my profile greatly by getting in more observation sites and hours I think). I also only have B's in Anatomy and Physiology I and II. That can be improved by re-taking it. I don't want to, but I can.

To address the men in OT issue: I was not even called for an interview at one school. Not even an interview. No men were. Not ONE. I have trouble believing that my statistics do not qualify me for an interview when there are no male applicants at all being interviewed. How many other men are in my situation? Their entering class will be 100% female and it is not due to a lack of qualified men; this would not be permitted to happen with race: I guarantee you that a qualified black applicant will get an interview. Not so with men. OT has to work on addressing this *massive* gender imbalance that I guess departments just don't care much about.

I apologize if this thread became a much more political and contentious discussion than it originally began as; it was not my intention. I'm concerned with helping others or I wouldn't choose OT, I'd go and get my degree in finance if I wanted that. We're all here, and in it, for the same reason I hope: to impact others in a positive way. It's important to understand that we all carry a different perspective on life: I am from a small town in Texas and I grew up in a very conservative homogenous culture. I joined the army and that is what actually made a strong impression on me exposing me to different people from many walks of life: I had never met blacks, or a gay person until I joined the army. I certainly didn't have the best impression of either growing up. Being open minded doesn't mean subscribing to a PC/Leftist mentality, it means you meet people where they are and don't judge. I don't.

osu789, my post was in no way judging you, arguing with you, or attacking you, "ad hominem" or otherwise. You have made your position on gender inequality in the field clear before this, there is no need to repeat it over again. Though I find it highly unlikely you didn't receive an interview for the sole reason that you are male, lets say (for the sake of argument) thats true. I provided you with a link to a resource for an OT community focused on helping men and other minorities break into the field. Don't you think it would be more proactive and helpful for you to contact them and get advice from male OTs who also care about this and have successfully gained admission to highly competitive OT programs? As opposed to continuing to be defensive and repeating your argument to other applicants here on this forum, who are obviously not giving you the kind of response you are looking for?

 

[lcs2074]

Okay, you are clearly determined to only see what you want to see and keep repeating the same complaints over and over again, ignoring anything that might conflict with your perspective or actually be constructive. Its a shame because in the two years I've been following this forum, this is the first time I've experienced someone being so continually, determinedly negative and narrow-minded. Since you have completely ignored any advice or constructive comments from various individuals even when presented in the kindest, most considerate way possible, I'm done wasting time and energy responding to anything you post.

And for the record, I completely agree with everything inari87 and bls614 said about white privilege and male privilege. There is a lot more I could say, but since you insist on remaining willfully ignorant, I won't bother.

 

[lcs2074]

@osu789
My clear intention was to steer the conversation on this thread in a positive way towards resources and solutions for addressing the gender disparity, instead of the negativity of controversy and argument. Since you seem more interested in continuing to complain and victimize yourself, I'm out. I'm still glad I posted about the BrOT movement as those who do actually want to know more about what is/can be done to address this disparity may find it helpful.

 

[BLS614]

@osu789 - I noticed in another thread last year that you had mentioned your undergrad GPA was very low. I understand that you have taken a lot of post-bach courses, but don't you think your original GPA could be holding you back in admissions? I mention this because I have seen you post a lot about your credentials (which are great) and your 3.7 post-bach GPA, yet you haven't been admitted to a school. Unless you are applying to schools that only look at your last 60 hours, unfortunately, a low undergrad GPA would still factor into an admissions committee's decision. It sucks that some programs won't see past this, especially since it was probably a long time ago, but since OT schools have become incredibly competitive, any little thing can count against you. The committee sees ALL of your grades since you began college after all. I have seen many people on this forum in similar circumstances who have acknowledged that they believe it was their poor performance their first year or two in undergrad which held them back (which I agree is kind of unfair). I feel like you have put a lot of blame on the admissions committees for not choosing you, and act quite shocked by it, even going as far as to use one example of a school not interviewing men (admittedly very strange) to argue that OT schools have actively discriminated against you for being a man. However, if a low undergrad GPA is appearing on your application, you probably don't need to assume prejudice for not being admitted. I am of the mindset that mistakes you made at 18 shouldn't hold you back from success at 28 and there is always more to a story than a stupid GPA. Unfortunately though, admissions committees don't always see that. So before attempting to create a panic whereby people are led to believe a ton of OT schools want nothing to do with male applicants, I would make absolutely sure your gender was the only thing keeping you from a spot in the class.

 

[PaulS156]

"No offense, but it sounds like you're jumping to conclusions based on a bad applications cycle. I'm just taking a stab at this, but you sound young and guns blazing. Calm down, don't jump to conclusions (especially in your SOP), work on letters and GRE and diversify your hours. There seem to be a good number of guys on this forum who have succeeded in their journey. Stay positive and you should be fine!"

OTSunshine56 put it perfectly. Dude, you have to relax. I had an interview where I was the ONLY guy there out of 27 people. There were 5 or 6 other interview dates, not sure how many applicants at those interview dates and what the gender balance was but at my interview, I was the ONLY male. I got in. If you are facing a bunch of rejections or not hearing from schools, I suggest taking a school that you heard back from and call them to ask WHY, specifically, you didn't get an interview. Ask what you can do to make your application better.

 

[PaulS156]

Additionally, while it is kind of rude, realistically, not all schools are going to be able to contact every single applicant. For example, Midwestern had 1,100 applicants this year. It is disheartening but schools have quite a bit more to do for the application process than just letting people know if they've got an interview or not.