"Let Asians compete freely with white students."

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Originally posted by la2bos2ny
then don't call people idiots.
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Did that hurt your little feelings :(
Imagine being called that everyday of your life or having that feeling everyday of your life. You may begin to believe it. You got all teary eyed when I just said it once you would probably be in special Ed by third grade.
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Ernham: "Heh. Who makes up these gangs? who is reponsible for the violence?? Huh? I know. "


Typical. Very typical. What an easy way of dismissing an important and unfortunate reality. In such a racist form, you see it as the problem of the latino and black kid. Their shortcomings are their own fault for being so stupid, isn?t it?

Actually, It?s an issue of hopeless poverty and not race. It?s that sad notion that there is little you can do to change your way of life. Psychologically, people need self-worth and a form of identity. Unfortunately, when you live in the midst of a seemingly unchangeable rut, people start to use the most trivial things, like territory, or in group/outgroup, or toughness (in the case of gangs), as their mode of self-worth. What else do they have really? At this point, gang members begin defending their senseless way of life because it?s who they are, what they know, and what makes them worthwhile. Fortunately, you don?t have to deal with these kinds of things because you have much more on your plate--An education and becoming a doctor. However, if your self importance were threatened, like a doctor calls you an idiot and a disgrace to medicine, I?m sure you?d get pissed and feel threatened because you consider yourself intelligent. After all, you are in medical school or have hope of getting there.
 
You didn't "hurt my little feelings," you simply undermined your ability to make an argument. Frankly, I could care less whether you think I'm an idiot or not. I just think it's kind of pathetic that people who have no idea how to argue a point resort to name-calling in a desperate effort to win an argument. You don't seem to get it, though.
 
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Forgive me for making a poll pursuing my own, selfish interests. I'm trying to figure out how many current (and future) DUCOMers there are on SDN. I know that a bunch of my classmates are lurkers here, and that's fine. Just make sure you vote as it's anonymous.

Anyway, if you're not at DUCOM, and never will be, PLEASE do not vote for one of the first 7 options. I am trying to figure out how many active posters and lurkers from DUCOM there are on SDN, and there isn't really anyway to figure that out while still keeping the lurkers anonymous, except for a poll.

Of course, for those of you who are present or future Drexel-ites and don't mind saying so, post away!

Thanks in advance!

ttac
 
For the poster who was wondering about the name of the website, "ModelMinority", their front page offers an explanation:

"As diverse and rapidly changing as the society we live in, Asian Americans do not conform to any single description. Despite this, Americans reluctant to address the realities of continuing racism and white privilege have consistently portrayed Asian Americans as a "model minority" who have uniformly succeeded by merit.

While superficially complimentary to Asian Americans, the real purpose and effect of this portrayal is to celebrate the status quo in race relations. First, by over-emphasizing Asian American success, it de-emphasizes the problems Asian Americans continue to face from racial discrimination in all areas of public and private life. Second, by misrepresenting Asian American success as proof that America provides equal opportunities for those who conform and work hard, it excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race in general, and on the persistence of racism against Asian Americans in particular.

The mission of ModelMinority.com is to provide this scrutiny in every possible way, so as to educate, inform, provoke, and inspire movements by individuals and groups toward Asian American empowerment..."
 
"Huh. Not only am I curious as to what you think my ilk to be"

Your "ilk" is the worst type possible. It is your "ilk" that has been screwing this country up for decades. You grew up in some moderately well-off suburban area. You went to college and your mommy and daddy paid all your bills and made your life a cinch. You volunteer in some urban cesspool and believe it makes you "worldly," but you've never really been out in the rest of the real world, making your views quite myopic..

You might ask how I know so much about you, having never even met you. Well, after seeing your "ilk" in college more times than I care to recollect(particularly in pre-meds), I tend to be able to sniff them out quite readily. It's not difficult; their stench is overwhelming.

Now that we have the semantics of the word "ilk" over with, bring on your refutation and claim what I've deduced is incorrect. Again, that would just be status quo for your ilk.
 
FLAME! :eek:
 
I understand that many minorities feel helpless, and that there has unfortunatley evolved an ethos of helplessness.

However does aa adress this culture of victimization in an approriate way? Does it not just become a paternalistic version of being benevolent to the "noble savage?"

I feel as if aa insults minorities by saying they are not as good, or flawed in some fundamental way, which is nonsense. To the URMs here do you think aa has helped your communities in a tangible way?
 
another thought:

I think that aa really negates the root of the problem which is a lack of adequate oppertunity for urms in primary education, which would require a substantial investment to rectify.

Given this reality I can understand some preferantial treatment in college applications. However, I believe that after that the playing field is leveled to a certian extent. We all take the same classes and we all have the same tutors and help centers to go to.

At what point does preferential treatment for urms stop? Should we allow urms to not do as well on the boards, or allow them to pass with lower scores?
 
"That initial article was interesting because it kind of says Affirmative Action helps whites by keeping the number of Asians below what it should be if they freely competed."

You have to understand that site was created by a couple of crybabies that play the left-ist race card yet have no mathematical ability. These data are incorrect, because they do not take account for the proportion of whites vs asian, which has been swinging more and more towards asian americans than whites. So, all things being equal, of course they will have a small increase in percent of admission and it will continue you move that direction as the % of whites in california continues decrease. They are playing fast and loose with data and trying to make it look like AA is "helping whites." Laughable. Very common liberal-leftist tactics; lie to the ignorant, counterfactual data.
 
"I think that aa really negates the root of the problem which is a lack of adequate opportunity for urms in primary education, which would require a substantial investment to rectify."

There will never be equality in education. Just like there will never be equality in capitalism.

"Given this reality I can understand some preferantial treatment in college applications. However, I believe that after that the playing field is leveled to a certain extent. We all take the same classes and we all have the same tutors and help centers to go to."

If anything, URMs gain an advantage in universities. There often classes that only URM and "jocks" can take that they essentially get in A in for just showing up. All across the american university system there are tutoring programs that are only for URMs or disadvantaged students. Since an URM can come in from a high income family, and most pre-med URMs I've seen come from middle-class or higher background, they get these additional "perks" yet they are not disadvantaged. Not only that, but professors give exaggerated grades to URMs; there have been a number of Essays written by professors that have done this because they "feel sorry for them." There are also tons of programs set up "just for them."

I wish I had all the studies and cites that show that white professors, both men and women, give URMs exaggerated grades and less criticism than white students. I'm sure anyone in psychology or sociology has come across a number of these studies. My psychology textbook was littered with them("Psychology" 6th ed, David G Meyers)
 
Originally posted by drkingdingaling
Its a way of thinking. Im pretty sure your parents didn't come from a generation where they felt that it was totally impossible for them to succeed. it really does go all the way back to slavery. its been carried down from generation to generation that no matter how hard you work, theres no way in hell that the white man will let you be successful. Its not just a struggle its an uncontrolable mindset. If a kid hears that he'll never be anything everyday of his life by parents who themselves have a feeling of total hopelessness and defeat. the kids too will began to take on the same mindset of their parents. but, should you come from a culture where your past generations wern't subject to constant opression, a situation where You've grown up in an enviroment where your parents have worked hard and you were able to see them reap the benefits of their hard work, you yourself will take on the belief that anything can be achieved with hard work and determination. and you then will tell that to your kids.and so on and so on.Its so easy to say, why cant someone just work hard or why cant a person just quit being lazy.Its like when a fat person says they cant quit eating or a smoker says its they cant quit smoking. they've put themselves in a state of mind where those things are totally unattainable. Its a cycle that has to begin somewhere. if that means accepting people for reasons other than the norm, then so be it.
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Tha is it !! :clap:
 
"I've been in and out of the hospital a number of times in my life... I've never "established a rapport." It's always been more of a "McDonald's drive-through" situation."

Ok so you have social skill issues...

"It appears, then, that we need to "de-racify" URMs. Your data suggests that URMs are inherently racist and we would be better of fixing that "issue," rather than compromise healthcare for everyone."

WTF???


"Shorter lifespans for blacks has been document outside of the context you have placed it in. The fact of the matter is that blacks have a greater mortality rate for both genetic and behavioral reasons, not because of lack of black doctors."

(WTF???)2



"It won't be skewed when med schools are getting sued for millions every year. "

Then we as patients will sue back against monopolizing of medicine by schools which would not graduate physicians representative of our communities.





"Right. So we should just randomly pick people off the street for med school acceptance. *boggle*. You know, in America we pride ourselves, or we used to, on that those that really tried their best and worked hard would be rewarded on some level. What you are suggesting is in contradiction with this(highly un-american.)"

Since when medical school is a reward for those who work hard? helloo! medical school = school to prepare physicians.


"Here's a hypothetical situation for you:

You are very sick and are likely going to die. You have a couple months to live and one extremely difficult surgery that has a very high chance of failure is the only recourse you have. If you were to choose your doctor for the operation would you chose(same alma maters and experience):

Doctor A: 3.92 GPA, 41 MCAT.
Doctor B: 3.21 GPA, 24 MCAT."


Duh, none of the above, I would choose the doctor with the greatest experience in surgery and best record as a surgeon, who cares about undergrad GPA and MCAT at that point? LMAO!!!

U funny!
 
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Originally posted by la2bos2ny
Way to make a mature and reasoned argument. I may be an idiot, drkingdingaling, but you are awfully paternalistic. If these issues were as clear as you're making them out to be, they would have been resolved long ago.
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yeah sure, and greed and selfishness do not affect the judgement of those for whom the argument is not resolved.... (sigh)
 
Originally posted by la2bos2ny
If it were purely a matter of self-esteem, learned helplessness, whatever you want to call it, that would translate to clear, specific actions to remedy this situation.
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Really? prove that please
 
"Ok so you have social skill issues..."

Well, whatever. I don't feel like reiterating my life story to some stranger because I have the flu.



"WTF???"

Can't you read? If these studies say this, then URMs are inherently racist and need to be re-educated to be more "open-minded."


"(WTF???)2"

All manners of major maladies that befall black americans are genetic and behavioral.


"Then we as patients will sue back against monopolizing of medicine by schools which would not graduate physicians representative of our communities."

Who are you going to sue?? Start with God and move down the list?

"Since when medical school is a reward for those who work hard? helloo! medical school = school to prepare physicians."

Medical school is a reward for those that put in the blood, sweat, and tears to get in. Try not to confuse it with the church down the street giving out free bread, peanut butter, and 5 lb blocks of cheese.


"Duh, none of the above, I would choose the doctor with the greatest experience in surgery and best record as a surgeon, who cares about undergrad GPA and MCAT at that point? LMAO!!!"

Try reading that for comprehension next time.
 
Originally posted by Happy613
I understand that many minorities feel helpless, and that there has unfortunatley evolved an ethos of helplessness.
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However does aa adress this culture of victimization in an approriate way? Does it not just become a paternalistic version of being benevolent to the "noble savage?"
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Why should we think it necessarily become that?


I feel as if aa insults minorities by saying they are not as good, or flawed in some fundamental way, which is nonsense. To the URMs here do you think aa has helped your communities in a tangible way?
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Actually it feels real good to realize all the segregation, inhuman treatment to one's race is not just overloooked. It means a certain degree of comprehension is give to the generations of these former groups, doesn't being comprehended feel good?. Has AA helped communities? I believe it is very plain to see. American communities are as far as they are from what communities used to be like for minorities back in the days of Dr. MLK thanks to AA.
 
"Can't you read? If these studies say this, then URMs are inherently racist and need to be re-educated to be more "open-minded."

Actually , if URMs are racist maybe they learned to be racists from the majority counterpart, therefore, should you not reeducate the majority first before you educate the URMs? ;)


"All manners of major maladies that befall black americans are genetic and behavioral."

Unless you prove it you will most likely make the point that you are just speculating out of baseless hatred for the black race.


"Who are you going to sue?? Start with God and move down the list?"

So you bring up the sue issue then ask who would get sued? (nodding)


"Medical school is a reward for those that put in the blood, sweat, and tears to get in. Try not to confuse it with the church down the street giving out free bread, peanut butter, and 5 lb blocks of cheese."

So medical school is like candy heaven reward for those who work hard , huh? ok buddy... that really makes sense.


"Try reading that for comprehension next time"

You say medical school is a reward for some hard working group and you dare evoke the words reading and comprehension in the same sentence?

:laugh:
 
I'm not going to comment on AA, but I do want to comment on the idea that medical training is a reward for doing well in undergrad. That idea is a load of BS. Doing well in college (and on the MCAT) is a reward for itself. It will open doors for getting into medical school, but, as with anything else in life, there are no guarantees. If you have good grades and scores and go into a med school interview with the attitude that you DESERVE to be there because you're so smart and special, then I can promise you that the reason why you don't get in is not because a URM took your spot. Your own arrogance would be responsible for keeping you out of med school.

It has been argued on this message board that the smartest, most hard-working people don't even go into medicine. Are these people cheating themselves out of their reward? Medical education is a privilege that you need to prove yourself worthy of pursuing. It is not a reward for people who would place their own ego above the welfare of their patients.

Originally posted by Ernham
Medical school is a reward for those that put in the blood, sweat, and tears to get in. Try not to confuse it with the church down the street giving out free bread, peanut butter, and 5 lb blocks of cheese.
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"Actually , if URMs are racist maybe they learned to be racists from the majority counterpart, therefore, should you not reeducate the majority first before you educate the URMs?"

Actually, if you could *read*, you'd see that "only URMs seek out URM doctors." It does not say white patients seek out white doctors. Hell, I'd rather have an asian, personally. I would assume most whites are concerned about their doctors qualifications, not the color of their skin, unlike URMs, which are inherently racist if this information is correct.

"Unless you prove it you will most likely make the point that you are just speculating out of baseless hatred for the black race."

Yes, I'm going to spend a month beating the ignorance out of you. Hardly. Plenty of studies and statistics are available if you are truly interested.


"So you bring up the sue issue then ask who would get sued? (nodding)"

Wow. Unreal. You are going to sue WHO, and for WHAT. You can't sue anyone because blacks/URMs can't compete academically with whites/asians. As I said, you might initiate some litigation against god. Good luck with that.


Snipping the rest. You = waste of my time.
 
It only took you two paragraphs and ~1000 letters to precisely paraphrase what I had already stated in a simple sentence. Great job, Entei.


Originally posted by Entei
I'm not going to comment on AA, but I do want to comment on the idea that medical training is a reward for doing well in undergrad. That idea is a load of BS. Doing well in college (and on the MCAT) is a reward for itself. It will open doors for getting into medical school, but, as with anything else in life, there are no guarantees. If you have good grades and scores and go into a med school interview with the attitude that you DESERVE to be there because you're so smart and special, then I can promise you that the reason why you don't get in is not because a URM took your spot. Your own arrogance would be responsible for keeping you out of med school.

It has been argued on this message board that the smartest, most hard-working people don't even go into medicine. Are these people cheating themselves out of their reward? Medical education is a privilege that you need to prove yourself worthy of pursuing. It is not a reward for people who would place their own ego above the welfare of their patients.
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Yes, Ernham. You're very efficient at making yourself look like an arrogant jackass. Congratulations.

Good luck in med school (if you make it) with your attitude. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ernham
It only took you two paragraphs and ~1000 letters to precisely paraphrase what I had already stated in a simple sentence. Great job, Entei.
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What is the argument for giving advantages to specific races over giving advantages to those solely considered disadvantaged?

In other words, if society is messed up to the point where specific "races" are _inherently_ disadvantaged, the system in the above will, in practice come out the same. But isn't this far fairer? It seems to me that solely using the PC word of "diversity" to give specific "races" preference makes educational institutions perpetuate racism.

Affirmative action as practiced today is messed up. The above is really the promotion of skin color as an important factor in daily life. This is prima facie racism to me.

My only reservation is that it is probably true that blacks, indians, asians, and those not of the "mainstream" culture do suffer in society from many levels. And it's also true that racism in the history of the United States affects those who identify as being African-Americans even today. But I don't see how perpetuating racism solves the historical racism that permeates to the present day. The only solution, I see, is more interracial couples, because the society that derives from the children of those unions will alone ultimately unravel the entire notion of "race."

Maybe that's the solution for the Jews of Israel, to marry all the Palestinians, but of course, I would probably be doused with gasoline and lit on fire for saying such blasphemy.

:cool:

Thoughts?
 
Originally posted by BME103
http://modelminority.com/article304.html

Though supportive of affirmative action for black and Hispanic applicants in particular, Evelyn Hu-DeHart, a professor of history and ethnic studies at Brown, said she took offense at the perception that there might be a threshold for how many Asians on a campus was too many.

"I'll tell you what is discriminatory in the case of Texas," said Ms. Hu-DeHart, who emigrated from China in the 1960's. "They don't say whites are overrepresented. They're pitting Asian-Americans against blacks and Latinos by saying Asian-Americans are taking your place."

She added: "Let Asians compete freely with white students."
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This woman is an absolute idiot, totally ignorant of how admissions works. Admissions is a zero sum game.. when you give a bonus to one racial group for a set number of slots, its a de facto hindrance to the other racial groups.

Asians are FAR MORE OVERREPRESENTED than whites are in colleges/med/grad schools. If we were to use racial quotas, they would suffer the most, whereas whites would suffer but not nearly as much. That article said Berkeley was 45% Asian, which means you would have to drop that percentage by 34% to equal their population ratio of 11%. Whites represent 29% of Berkeley however, which is pretty close to the state population % of California.

She also has no clue about the Texas system she is bashing. Nobody at Texas EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A CEILING FOR ASIANS, so I have no clue where she even got that idea at all.

Secondly, whites ARE ALREADY COMPETING EQUALLY with Asians... whites get zero bonus in the admissions process, the same is true for asians. To suggest somehow that whites are being given an edge against asians is absolutely unfounded and ridiculous.

This woman is another example of a left wing radical fool who speaks with two tongues, one to benefit her race but another to decry whites and somehow promote other minorities.

She cant have it both ways. Either open it up to a true meritocracy where Asians will dominate and no regard for race is given in admissions; OR use some kind of AA system where blacks/hispanics are given an artificial bonus at the expense of asians/whites.
 
You are right that it is wrong to make this issue one about race rather than opportunity. My previous comments on this thread have been misconstrued by those who would like to paint me as a racist for suggesting it, but the fact is that the ideal here would be to have equality of opportunity for everyone.

Of course, certain races in this country have traditionally been marginalized and mistreated, in many cases resulting in a culture that reinforces such marginalization. This needs to be recognized, but the issue here is not one of reparation. The question is a very pragmatic one - how do you offer the best healthcare to the most people, across all social and racial strata, and how do you take into account an applicant's own circumstances when comparing him or her to others of very different backgrounds in the admissions process.

America is not a melting pot, and the solution is not a blindness to race. It is a salad bowl, or a mosaic, where everyone comes from different backgrounds and circumstances. The trouble is that some on this forum would have us focus exclusively on the differences, while others would have us pretend that they don't exist.
 
Originally posted by thewebthsp

Maybe that's the solution for the Jews of Israel, to marry all the Palestinians, but of course, I would probably be doused with gasoline and lit on fire for saying such blasphemy.



Thoughts?
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I once dated a jewish girl :love:
 
Hey Ernham I'm baAack. I actually enjoy replying to threads Ernham participates in. Is he a racist? Doubt it, I like the way hey establishes arguments and eloquently yet arrogantly(that's cool by the way) defends them. I have respect for anybody who likes a good debate. Especially when he sums up the black experience in one post (your arguments always come off alot stronger when you DON'T do that, you seem to show to much emotion). I have busy lately so I have not been able to counterpost with Ernham but I have been observing and he is pretty good. Well, I'm sure he is going to flame the heck out of my post any minute now so I'll be on my way. Oh Ernham, I hope to run into you in the next 8 years, I believe our counter opinions and competitive natures will surely yield something great and make us better doctors i the process.

flame away

-0-
 
I think we have to establish what is the goal of aa. Is it to have some fundamental transformation of society?

Or is it to adress historic injustices? If so how do you do this without creating more injustices?

Thirdly I would be interested to hear what people say about what I believe is an unfortunatley growing sentiment that urm are not "good doctors."

This is obviously a stupid, and ignorant notion; however I have many times heard people say that they would not want to go to a urm physician because they don't know if he just got by on racial prefrences.

Does this affect things in any way?


:)
 
Originally posted by Happy613
I think we have to establish what is the goal of aa. Is it to have some fundamental transformation of society?

Or is it to adress historic injustices? If so how do you do this without creating more injustices?

Thirdly I would be interested to hear what people say about what I believe is an unfortunatley growing sentiment that urm are not "good doctors."

This is obviously a stupid, and ignorant notion; however I have many times heard people say that they would not want to go to a urm physician because they don't know if he just got by on racial prefrences.

:)
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If AA had never been created, people would have felt the same way towards URM doctors (if there were any) anyway, except for a different, and even more unjustifiable reason.

I think at the undergraduate level and in the workplace, AA is about leveling the playing field; beyond undergrad, it tends to promote diversity.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
"There often classes that only URM and "jocks" can take that they essentially get in A in for just showing up.
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WTF? Where did you go to school?
 
Originally posted by MeganRose
WTF? Where did you go to school?
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MSU.
 
"Actually, if you could *read*, you'd see that "only URMs seek out URM doctors." It does not say white patients seek out white doctors."

How does the fact that study does not address the physician/race preference of non URM patient prove non URM patients do not tend/prefer to seek non URM doctors?


"Hell, I'd rather have an asian, personally. I would assume most whites are concerned about their doctors qualifications, not the color of their skin, unlike URMs, which are inherently racist if this information is correct."


Unlike you, most "whites" are most likely concerned about the physicians's medical qualification and not their GPAs or MCAT score :p . And about URMs being inherently racist, why does the desire of a minority member of being cared for by a minority , necessarily represent an act of racism? could it not, for example, be a fear of not being fully understood by the non URM physician?. Again you are apparently just full of blinding hatred which leads you to make irrational and racism-evidence conclusions.


"Yes, I'm going to spend a month beating the ignorance out of you. Hardly. Plenty of studies and statistics are available if you are truly interested."

If you know of such studies and statistics why would you not post them and thus substantiate your claims, now if not being able to cite work is not ignorance I am not sure what is then?



"Wow. Unreal. You are going to sue WHO, and for WHAT. You can't sue anyone because blacks/URMs can't compete academically with whites/asians. As I said, you might initiate some litigation against god. Good luck with that."

Evade the point all you want, there is no place for injustice in this planet anymore, if by lack of proper government, Medical care does not represent the needs of contemporary american society then injustice would exist.



"Snipping the rest. You = waste of my time. "

You = neurotic anger disorder = waste of time = anyone can see that ;) Boo ya!
 
responding to the OP's article, i think the demographic breakdown of the UC's, especially Berkley, shows exactly what would happen if AA was removed: asians would have an all-out free for all in the admissions process. even though they make up only a few percentage points of the U.S. population, they tend to dominate numbers in the absence of AA.

blame it on the immigrant mentality or belief in the american dream, but south and east asians are taught from a young age to be driven to succeed. whether that training is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.
 
deez4life is that Tomy Montana you have in that pic?
 
Okay, I'm going to give my 2 cents here. My disclamer: I am Japanese-American, I am a woman, and I am from a rural area.

In response to all of those people who seem to think that Asians have it easy, I have this to say: My grandparents were forced off of their land during WWII, and sent to "internment" camps. Despite popular American belief, these were in fact concentration camps, and people did in fact die. After the war, my family faced discrimination in business and in everyday life. But, this is not something I knew about my family when I was growing up.

I am from a town that is 80% hispanic. It would not be an exaggeration to say that about half of the town does not speak English. Yes, as an Asian-American, I am not benefited by AA, but I definately see the need to recruit more URMs. Many of my "white" friends do not fully understand some of the complexities of my culture, and I do not pretend to know the complexities of other cultures. Cultural sensitivity is important to many minorities.

All of this being said, I feel that admissions should be based primarily on choosing the best future physicians. But, who says that MCATs and GPAs are the only (or even the best) way to measure the future of a physician? What about compassion, sensitivity, and people skills? After reading this thread, I am saddened by the future of medicine. We sit here and argue about AA and who should and shouldn't be given special consideration when applying to medical school. We should be more concerned with making ourselves better applicants and better future physicans. It should be less about us and more about our future patients.

As I said before, as an Asian-American, I do not benefit from AA in medical school. But I worked hard and I've been accepted probably because of my commitment and intent to practice rural medicine.

Quit whining and do something to make yourself a better applicant. It's not all about stats.
 
Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?
deez4life is that Tomy Montana you have in that pic?
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yup, 'tis the late, great Scarface
 
"Okay, I'm going to give my 2 cents here. My disclamer: I am Japanese-American, I am a woman, and I am from a rural area."

I don't know why people feel the need for such disclaimers. As if someone needs a particular life story to have some validity to their opinion.

"In response to all of those people who seem to think that Asians have it easy, I have this to say: My grandparents were forced off of their land during WWII, and sent to "internment" camps. Despite popular American belief, these were in fact concentration camps, and people did in fact die."

Well, in all honesty the japanese that were interned didn't really have it very rough. Although they definitely were concentration camps, they were hardly horrible.

"After the war, my family faced discrimination in business and in everyday life. But, this is not something I knew about my family when I was growing up."

So did anyone with a central or eastern european last name/accent.

"Many of my "white" friends do not fully understand some of the complexities of my culture, and I do not pretend to know the complexities of other cultures. Cultural sensitivity is important to many minorities."

They don't have culture(s). They are americans. If they can't accept american culture as their own, they deserve to be marginalized.

"As I said before, as an Asian-American, I do not benefit from AA in medical school. But I worked hard and I've been accepted probably because of my commitment and intent to practice rural medicine.

Quit whining and do something to make yourself a better applicant. It's not all about stats."

Whom would you be speaking to? blacks "whining" they need AA, or non URMs whining that AA is racist? Heh.
 
Originally posted by Jillianrae
Quit whining and do something to make yourself a better applicant. It's not all about stats.
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I will as soon as you quit fu**ing with my civil rights.

??2000d - No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.?
 
I agree with Ernham. It's time for everybody to quit whining, go study and be generally productive. Given requisite amounts of desire and intelligence I would venture to say that almost any able-bodied individual is capable of getting into med school. Being an Asian male, it bothers me when other Asians complain about the preferential treatment that URM's get during the admissions process. There are plenty of Asian-Americans in medical schools all across the country. If they were really making it that difficult for us to get in we wouldn't be present in such large relative numbers. If you need to get a 35 on the MCAT to get an acceptance then do it. Don't worry about your average URM classmates who are getting <30.
 
"In response to all of those people who seem to think that Asians have it easy, I have this to say: My grandparents were forced off of their land during WWII, and sent to "internment" camps. Despite popular American belief, these were in fact concentration camps, and people did in fact die."

Well, in all honesty the japanese that were interned didn't really have it very rough. Although they definitely were concentration camps, they were hardly horrible."

Ernham -- how the hell do you know? Go read Farewell to Manzanar. If you were there, you wouldn't say it was "hardly horrible." How dare you make judgments on other people's suffering.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
[BWell, in all honesty the japanese that were interned didn't really have it very rough. Although they definitely were concentration camps, they were hardly horrible.

"After the war, my family faced discrimination in business and in everyday life. But, this is not something I knew about my family when I was growing up."

So did anyone with a central or eastern european last name/accent.
[/B]
Click to expand...

I don't understand how you could possibly make such a rash judgement if you personally did not experience the realities of living in a concentration camp? Even if your claim was true, it does not deny the fact that Japanese-American citizens were asked to give up their rights as a citizen. I doubt anyone would argue with the fact that forcing a group of people to give up everything they've worked and live in a facility with minimal comforts is a great atrocity.

Secondly, I do not understand how stating that central or eastern europeans facing discrimination somehow lessens the argument that asians faced discrimination.
 
it is pretty hilarious that if AA is removed, it would most likely result in less white med students.

("but at least it would be fair!!!" -- yes, im aware of this viewpoint, calm down)
 
I think a few people misunderstood me. I am not complaining about the fact that some URMs get special treatment. I am proud of the fact that I've worked hard to earn my spot in medical school. Anyone who is accepted into medical school has worked hard (those that don't just don't survive the pre-med courses). Many people who don't get medical school acceptances have worked hard.

In response to Ernham's comment on culture, define "American" culture. Each generation has its own culture, each ethnicity has its own culture. To say that one culture should be valued above another is the same thing as saying that all people who don't have the same religious beliefs as you are damned. It's that kind of attitude that leads to terrible atrocities. America is a country built on diversity.

Size-tens, without realizing it, has basically repeated the point I was trying to make. My comment about whining was, in general, directed at everyone who is whining about preferential treatment, or lack thereof, in the medical school application process. The energy that people spend whining about unfair treatment would be much better spent in activities that would better prepare them for the field of medicine.

I was going to comment on Ernham's message about the camps not being that horrible, but I think that some of the rest of you have said everything that needs to be said. Thank-you An Yong for your comment. I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Originally posted by indyzx
it is pretty hilarious that if AA is removed, it would most likely result in less white med students.

("but at least it would be fair!!!" -- yes, im aware of this viewpoint, calm down)
Click to expand...

You're missing the real thrust here. Yes, it would result in a little less whites, but it would result in SUBSTANTIALLY LESS blacks and hispanics. Thats the whole argument of the article.

You're talking about a relative drop of 1% for whites vs 20 or 30% for hispanics, yet harping on the drop in whites as if its the major trend here.
 
I fail to see the point of this discussion. Although I think AA is important and definitely something to keep in mind, none of us can do anything about it by next year. I'm Asian and applying for 2004 matriculation. If my ethnicity keeps me out of the schools of my choice, I just have to deal with it. If any of us really wants to make a change...maybe if we applied to law school now, we can make a difference in 20 years. Worrying about it now just gives you more to stress about and who needs that when we have enough to worry about with AMCAS, secondaries, LORs, interviews? Besides, do doctors really have a say in administration policies? It's a question for the judges and lawmakers. You want to make a difference for the next generation?...become a judge.:rolleyes:
 
Sometimes its fun to hang out with blacks. They have a good sense of humor and soul. Am I willing to let a black take the spot of a more qualified white lacking the soul and humor of the black? Maybe.
 
Am I willing to let a black take the spot of a more qualified white lacking the soul and humor of the black? Maybe."

To take someone elses spot? How nice of you...

To take YOUR spot....yeah right....lets see it gandhi
 
Originally posted by hightrump
Am I willing to let a black take the spot of a more qualified white lacking the soul and humor of the black? Maybe."

To take someone elses spot? How nice of you...

To take YOUR spot....yeah right....lets see it gandhi
Click to expand...

Wow, not only are you a whiny *****, but a racist as well. Is there any race you DONT tick off with your stupidity?

PS... I think Stanford rejected you outright because they must have figured you were a racist bigot from some other part of your application. The rest of us are doing just fine on our Stanford secondaries.
 
Racist?

How, I was making the point that the man was willing to let a classmate be booted out of school in favor of someone else. But not himself. Elthics doesnt work that way. If you think AA is only justified when YOU PERSONALY dont have to pay the price than you need to do more thinking. It has nothing to do with race. It could be regarding anything.

Unless your talking about mentioning gandhi....but im complementing gandhi....so.....I dont follow you here.....maybe you misunderstood my post.

But man are you angry at me......and getting personal for no reason. "The rest of us are doing just fine on our Stanford secondaries."
I mean come on......whos the ass here?
 
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