Lets be serious, does any patient actually trust an NP/PA?

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MedicineZ0Z

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It seems like if you pursue feedback from people, turns out they tend to disregard what midlevels say if the actual doctor was involved in their care. Only general exception are lesser educated people.
This whole fear of the NP/PA takeover is ridiculous because patients ultimately want an actual doctor for the most part.

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Oh please. For the most part, the public is full of "lesser educated people" who love their NP's because they are "so nice and caring and spend so much time with me!!!" Never mind that their knowledge base and diagnostic skills may suck. Long as they are nicer than the mean, bad, greedy doctors.
 
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Oh please. For the most part, the public is full of "lesser educated people" who love their NP's because they are "so nice and caring and spend so much time with me!!!" Never mind that their knowledge base and diagnostic skills may suck. Long as they are nicer than the mean, bad, greedy doctors.
Where I'm from everyone complains about the nurses' attitudes.
 
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--Reply about how this topic is discussed ad nauseum--
--Lengthy discussion about limited clinical hours midlevels experience--
-- Sarcastic Story about how a mid-level messed something up--
--Mention how this topic should be posted to allnurses.com--
--Laughing post bc pursuing surgical field--
--SJW post about how midlevels don't deserve such scrutiny--
 
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It seems like if you pursue feedback from people, turns out they tend to disregard what midlevels say if the actual doctor was involved in their care. Only general exception are lesser educated people.
This whole fear of the NP/PA takeover is ridiculous because patients ultimately want an actual doctor for the most part.
Do you think administrators care? If it saves them a buck, they will go that way.
 
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My top three favorite care providers were all PA's who I would go to before a doctor if I had to again. I don't feel that I'm a lesser educated person but I could be wrong.

What if it's not a bread and butter case
 
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******TO SAVE TIME, PLEASE SELECT A PREFERRED RESPONSE FROM BELOW AND QUOTE AS YOU PLEASE******

--Reply about how this topic is discussed ad nauseum--
--Lengthy discussion about limited clinical hours midlevels experience--
-- Sarcastic Story about how a mid-level messed something up--
--Mention how this topic should be posted to allnurses.com--
--Laughing post bc pursuing surgical field--
--SJW post about how midlevels don't deserve such scrutiny--

Did anyone see Logan? Helluva movie.
 
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these incessant anti-nursing, MD versus DO at Cetera threads are adding to the toxic atmosphere of this forum which is driven so many users away.

Please refrain from such topics.
 
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As a doctor do you really want to be spending most of your time with patients who come in with something not that serious, which an NP/PA can take care of?
 
To answer your question without a bunch of SJWing: yes. My current "doc" is a PA and I trust her with my medical decisions. Both of my parents see a (different) PA and actually will wait to see her rather than see any "real doc" at the clinic. She's probably the most popular provider at the clinic, the other physicians will go to her for a second opinion.
 
If the OP was just trolling, might I suggest Netflix as a more amusing way to pass the time.

If it was the expression of an actual held opinion, a bit of advice: that attitude will earn you nothing but problems in your career, and better to get it out of your system ASAP. Nurses, NPs, PAs, etc. are not your competition, they're your team. You'll need their support, insight, and backup.

Do you know who your patients confide in the most? Their personal support workers that earn less in a month than many doctors bill in a morning. The closer to the patient, the better the information you have as the one prescribing lengthy, expensive, and potentially lethal medical interventions.

The best doctors out there know the strengths, contributions, and limitations of every member of the health care team...including themselves.
 
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I am choosing my words very carefully here. An NP was my family doctor for several years, and she was wonderful. An NP is my kids pediatrician. She is also wonderful.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth you see in these fora about midlevels is NOT about patient safety, nor is it about salary competition. It is instead motivated by ego and degree hubris ("I went to school for ten years so I'm smarter and better than you!"). Exhibit A: You have SDNers complaining literally about "nurses need to know their place". There is a strong whiff of misogyny on these comments as well.

This will be my only comment on the subject. Period.


It seems like if you pursue feedback from people, turns out they tend to disregard what midlevels say if the actual doctor was involved in their care. Only general exception are lesser educated people.
This whole fear of the NP/PA takeover is ridiculous because patients ultimately want an actual doctor for the most part.
 
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I am choosing my words very carefully here. An NP was my family doctor for several years, and she was wonderful. An NP is my kids pediatrician.

You get away with little baits like these quite a lot. At this point, it's just beyond question that you're trolling.

Methinks it's time to pack your bags and saunter on back to Pre-Osteo Boulevard. Trolling can be entertaining, but your act is kinda tired. Lacks subtlety, you see.
 
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You get away with little baits like these quite a lot. At this point, it's just beyond question that you're trolling.

Methinks it's time to pack your bags and saunter on back to Pre-Osteo Boulevard. Trolling can be entertaining, but your act is kinda tired. Lacks subtlety, you see.
He means that an NP works takes the place of his doctor ( a NP is qualified to treat most minor health ailments, and therefore can "take the place" for lack of better phrasing, of an MD/DO doctor.)His point is that they are qualified to do the job o being primary care takers.
Goro is an AdCom at a DO school and actually one of the more important members on SDN ( having actual knowledge of how the med school admissions process works).
 
I am choosing my words very carefully here. An NP was my family doctor for several years, and she was wonderful. An NP is my kids pediatrician. She is also wonderful.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth you see in these fora about midlevels is NOT about patient safety, nor is it about salary competition. It is instead motivated by ego and degree hubris ("I went to school for ten years so I'm smarter and better than you!"). Exhibit A: You have SDNers complaining literally about "nurses need to know their place". There is a strong whiff of misogyny on these comments as well.

This will be my only comment on the subject. Period.
Except, doctors are in fact smarter than nurses & essentially all professions. I'm sure everyone is familiar with that famous job/IQ study that was done. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

To become a nurse you need Cs in a basic uni program. To become a doc you need As on top of an mcat score most of the general population could not achieve if their life depended on it. Lets not forget most kids have serious trouble passing 10th grade math.

Often what happens with people in our position is we lose touch with reality and what most people are like and what they're capable of.
 
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Except, doctors are in fact smarter than nurses & essentially all professions. I'm sure everyone is familiar with that famous job/IQ study that was done. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

To become a nurse you need Cs in a basic uni program. To become a doc you need As on top of an mcat score most of the general population could not achieve if their life depended on it. Lets not forget most kids have serious trouble passing 10th grade math.

Often what happens with people in our position is we lose touch with reality and what most people are like and what they're capable of.
You need at least a 3.5 gpa to get into nursing school.
The program is still harder than most people could handle, even if it is easier than Med school.
Also, Goro is a college prof. You can see that they're just behind doctors.
Also, the Doctor range starts at 105. That's barely higher than the average IQ of about 100.
It seems to be that the median IQ of doctors is about 120 and the one for nurses is about 110.
 
You need at least a 3.5 gpa to get into nursing school.
The program is still harder than most people could handle, even if it is easier than Med school.
Also, Goro is a college prof. You can see that they're just behind doctors.
Also, the Doctor range starts at 105. That's barely higher than the average IQ of about 100.
It seems to be that the median IQ of doctors is about 120 and the one for nurses is about 110.
I think you kind of missed the point...
Are nurses above average intelligence? Of course. No one is challenging that. Just to finish a university degree in any science related field requires above average intelligence.
I was merely refuting Goro's gesture in that "we're all equal." Med students and interns are told to be quiet and accept the hierarchy of the medical system but for some reason doctors can defend their top role in the overall hierarchy.
 
You need at least a 3.5 gpa to get into nursing school.
The program is still harder than most people could handle, even if it is easier than Med school.
Also, Goro is a college prof. You can see that they're just behind doctors.
Also, the Doctor range starts at 105. That's barely higher than the average IQ of about 100.
It seems to be that the median IQ of doctors is about 120 and the one for nurses is about 110.

The GPA is a bit of an overstatement. I've seen nursing students get in with around 2.9-3.1, and they're highly ranked university programs too. There aren't as many pre-reqs for advanced courses for nursing as opposed to MD/DO/DDS/PharmD/PA/etc. Not that the pre-reqs really help in advanced programs. There's also no entrance exams for nursing school for a majority of schools.

That doesn't imply that nursing students are less intelligent than medical students by any means. We can see this because some nurses get into medical school or advance in their practice. Some stick to nursing for different purposes, such as less schooling, and that's perfectly reasonable. I think for general practice, it's a smarter choice to become an NP than an MD. As opposed to other people who have NPs/PAs as their main practitioner, I have an MD as my PCP, and I wouldn't have it any other way!

In this sense, IQ is meaningless. Medicine requires a reasonable amount of intelligence, diligence, work ethic, connections and luck. It is not all smarts and everyone must have a 3.8-4.0 GPA. There are so many variables to consider rather than relying on IQ as an argument. There's a lot of hoops that prospective medical students and medical students must go through to obtain their license, so IQ is irrelevant. The training in medical school is vigorous and exhausting, so let's NOT discredit their work.

At the end of the day, it really depends on how the patient feels about their care to determine if they truly trust their provider. It's all subjective. I've seen doctors that are mediocre, and NPs/PAs who have no idea the differences in the medications they are prescribing. That's when I see pharmacists get irritated. The healthcare system isn't perfect.
 
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To be honest, where I'm from, most people are more likely to trust/like their NP/PA versus an MD for family medicine and primary care. DO is somewhere in between. It's like they read the "MD" and automatically come to the conclusion that this is a cold drug-pushing scientist lacking compassion, who won't look at them as a patient, but rather something to throw medication at. I'm not sure if this is just a rural attitude, or what, but the number of times I've heard someone praising their NP over the doctor is really curious.

Also, my home state doesn't have an MD school, so that probably has a lot to do with their attitude toward MDs.
 
It seems like if you pursue feedback from people, turns out they tend to disregard what midlevels say if the actual doctor was involved in their care. Only general exception are lesser educated people.
This whole fear of the NP/PA takeover is ridiculous because patients ultimately want an actual doctor for the most part.

This is a question that would be better answered by patients, yes? Perhaps run a randomized non-biased sample survey. ;)

lol
 
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The more time I spend with NPs and physicians the more I respect and understand the difference in expertise and training. Straight forward issues, no problems for NPs, but through in a easy curve ball and accurate diagnosis and treatment declines rapidly. I've witnessed on multiple occasions NPs asking their supervising physicians questions that make me wonder why they are allowed to practice independently in some states. Often times for more complicated patients, I feel like the NP is making their best guess. Have you ever seen the ridiculous number of tests some of these NPs order (or don't order when they should)?

I'm not suggesting NPs don't have a role, but comparing them any as being near physicians in terms of expertise is simply foolish!!
 
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Except, doctors are in fact smarter than nurses & essentially all professions. I'm sure everyone is familiar with that famous job/IQ study that was done. Modern IQ ranges for various occupations

To become a nurse you need Cs in a basic uni program. To become a doc you need As on top of an mcat score most of the general population could not achieve if their life depended on it. Lets not forget most kids have serious trouble passing 10th grade math.

Often what happens with people in our position is we lose touch with reality and what most people are like and what they're capable of.

Absolutely Correct
 
I am choosing my words very carefully here. An NP was my family doctor for several years, and she was wonderful. An NP is my kids pediatrician. She is also wonderful.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth you see in these fora about midlevels is NOT about patient safety, nor is it about salary competition. It is instead motivated by ego and degree hubris ("I went to school for ten years so I'm smarter and better than you!"). Exhibit A: You have SDNers complaining literally about "nurses need to know their place". There is a strong whiff of misogyny on these comments as well.

This will be my only comment on the subject. Period.

A NP was not your family doctor because nurses are not doctors. An NP may have been your primary care provider, that is a more accurate statement.
 
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The difference between NP and physician is huge, OMG, its not even close. Anyone who has ever worked with an NP or PA knows they don't know their stuff beyond a basic level. When clinical situations become even slightly complicated, they start guessing, often ordering tests they don't know how to interpret or don't provide useful information. A few days ago on my IM outpatient rotation, an NP came to ask her supervising physician about a case because the ultrasound didn't show anything after she ordered a CT. We were both confused about this logic since this particular clinical situation didn't need either. Mid-levels do a lot to keep radiologists and lab workers in business.
 
The difference between NP and physician is huge, OMG, its not even close. Anyone who has ever worked with an NP or PA knows they don't know their stuff beyond a basic level. When clinical situations become even slightly complicated, they start guessing, often ordering tests they don't know how to interpret or don't provide useful information. A few days ago on my IM outpatient rotation, an NP came to ask her supervising physician about a case because the ultrasound didn't show anything after she ordered a CT. We were both confused about this logic since this particular clinical situation didn't need either. Mid-levels do a lot to keep radiologists and lab workers in business.

Sounds pretty anecdotal. You are correct that some studies have shown midlevels increase healthcare costs by ordering many more tests. There are other studies that show midlevels achieve superior A1C, cholesterol, and BP control than physicians. The bag is mixed. It's important we all avoid cherry picking evidence and using it as a hammer to attack other professions.
 
I'd trust a PA/NP, or Johnny Depp, over a Caribbean MD grad any day. Nothing like a poo-for-brains PGY3 with 'island roots' to make you feel good about yourself.
 
I'd trust a PA/NP, or Johnny Depp, over a Caribbean MD grad any day. Nothing like a poo-for-brains PGY3 with 'island roots' to make you feel good about yourself.
lol what? Knowledge matters and takes time. You don't learn medicine in an online NP school or a year of class room + 1 year of shadowing in PA school.
 
Says the med student....


What is the obsession with online NP schools here on sdn. They aren't the baseline. And PA's don't just 'shadow'.

I have a colleague who completed their NP degree at an 'online' school with clinical placements at a hospital most medical graduates would dream of...assigned to both APRNs and Physicians.
 
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I'd trust a PA/NP, or Johnny Depp, over a Caribbean MD grad any day. Nothing like a poo-for-brains PGY3 with 'island roots' to make you feel good about yourself.
No need for this kind of an attack. I'm not a Carib MD but the Carib MD residents I've met are great and have taught me a lot.
 
Says the med student....


What is the obsession with online NP schools here on sdn. They aren't the baseline. And PA's don't just 'shadow'.

I have a colleague who completed their NP degree at an 'online' school with clinical placements at a hospital most medical graduates would dream of...assigned to both APRNs and Physicians.
Say the RN....

Like what exactly makes you think you're even remotely qualified to judge competence? The best NPs/PAs are worlds behind the worst of the worst MD DOs. Literal fact.
 
lol who made the initial attack??



For most RNs, I have tons of respect.

I feel bad for you that you feel the need to spend time you should be using learning medicine attacking nurses on every thread possible on the SDN. You’re the type that make me want to use the D part of my DNP just to watch you possibly stroke out from the resulting hypertensive emergency it would cause.
 
I feel bad for you that you feel the need to spend time you should be using learning medicine attacking nurses on every thread possible on the SDN. You’re the type that make me want to use the D part of my DNP just to watch you possibly stroke out from the resulting hypertensive emergency it would cause.
lmao what?
 
I'll try to answer your question as best I can from my 3rd year core experiences (notably 80% outpatient, 20% inpatient, midlevels on every rotation). To fully answer the original question, most patients initially trust everyone they encounter in healthcare (or barring midlevel attitude problems are usually too modest to say otherwise), and that is the problem--what they don't know about medical training can actually hurt them. Most pay for and expect a service, not a relationship.

Outpatient medicine is completely based on the rapport the midlevel or physician builds. Patients are free to switch, but with the level of continuity and trust in those settings it doesn't make sense to do so. Certain specialties are much more sensitive to this rapport, such as Ob. For example, I have seen patients actively seeking the care of nurse midwives only, and many of those patients have devoted trust in seeing only the midwife in the practice after multiple births. It wouldn't make sense for someone who has been delivered 5 times by a midwife to suddenly transfer her care over to a physician who doesn't know anything about her body's history. The relationship between physicians and midlevels in Obgyn is unique and fascinating...some would argue it is necessary. In generalist outpatient specialties (FM/Peds/IM) the relationship doesn't make any sense to me...an extender of a physician generalist shouldn't exist and makes no sense on paper. How do you extend the services of a generalist? Even if you're talking about a midlevel that provides limited services that the physician really isn't comfortable providing but can if necessary (like a well-visit ob midlevel that does speculum exams all day), the patient would almost certainly be better off with a midlevel at a specialist practice. The docs training midlevels to be full spectrum generalists/specialists are doing a disservice to their specialty.

Inpatient medicine is team based. Leashes are typically kept very short within those teams, but yes the inpatient PA/NPs I've seen have good rapport with patients, and they're treated like physicians by patients. When patients only want to see the physician it can be very awkward, and sometimes the physicians have stepped in to bolster the patient's trust in their nurses or midlevels (you have to remember that these people are often trained BY the physicians, and so are valued as true physician extenders--tools that allow physicians to be in more places). The level of procedural capability and diagnostic skill of some of the better-trained and institutionalized inpatient midlevels has baffled me. In my experience, midlevels are actively reaching more areas of inpatient medicine and surgery than people here will give them credit.

After a while of seeing this in just about every rotation it started to make sense to me: Inpatient medicine is moving to be much more team based, and trust and responsibility has to be placed on the system rather than individuals. Much like a sports team, physicians are often the team leaders or coaches covering multiple functions and ensuring their players are performing to spec. Yes, they can also step in and play the game themselves, but it's often not time-efficient to do so. Instead what I have noticed is that midlevels as true physician extenders are often really great at a few dozen things and provide those services at higher quality than any physician just from having done them so often. Outpatient medicine can be concentrated and focused, or it can be a miniature team. Patient concerns can vary dramatically from cost, ease of access, rapport, and other factors. With these varying concerns you can end up shooting craps with who is taking care of you.

Knowing what I know now, I do not question the role of inpatient midlevels, but I seriously question the role of anyone outpatient who hasn't had formal training in a residency. I do sense that some midlevels have the ability to be better than physicians at some things, but the picture of their entire skillset and knowledge base is tiny by comparison. Even more, I question how qualified that person is to manage the entirety of my care on the spectrum of low-high acuity. In a sense, outpatient medicine is the wild west and midlevel leash length varies dramatically across practices. However, in my experience, midlevels necessarily function better as cogs in a larger system than they do as directors of individualized care, and are better suited for the controlled inpatient medicine and surgery environment as trained technicians.
 
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Say the RN....

Like what exactly makes you think you're even remotely qualified to judge competence? The best NPs/PAs are worlds behind the worst of the worst MD DOs. Literal fact.

Like I suppose I could ask the same of you, Paris. That's hot.

There will come a time when you're done with lectures (oh, wait, med students don't even attend lecture, they watch online recordings...), books, and poorly fitted business attire and then some lucky human will take/receive you into their lives - more on this at plannedparenthoodsexed. The result will be a small creature that might need a stay in a peculiar place called the NICU. There you can exercise your judgement about the superiority of MD/DO trainees, but you'll quickly come to your senses and beg for your child to be transferred to the NNP team. All will be forgiven.

*this post was gender neutral
 
Like I suppose I could ask the same of you, Paris. That's hot.

There will come a time when you're done with lectures (oh, wait, med students don't even attend lecture, they watch online recordings...), books, and poorly fitted business attire and then some lucky human will take/receive you into their lives - more on this at plannedparenthoodsexed. The result will be a small creature that might need a stay in a peculiar place called the NICU. There you can exercise your judgement about the superiority of MD/DO trainees, but you'll quickly come to your senses and beg for your child to be transferred to the NNP team. All will be forgiven.

*this post was gender neutral
Sounds like someone's a little salty they got rejected from med school and have to use their online ethics courses to play doctor. Why don't you try those caribbean schools you made fun of earlier? I'm sure they're better than those online "doctor of" nursing physician assistant practitioner or whatever they call them nowadays.
 
Sounds like someone's a little salty they got rejected from med school and have to use their online ethics courses to play doctor. Why don't you try those caribbean schools you made fun of earlier? I'm sure they're better than those online "doctor of" nursing physician assistant practitioner or whatever they call them nowadays.

At least we know you go to a Carib school. It also explains why you feel the pathological need to prove everywhere how much better you perceive yourself to be than NP’s, because other med students look down on you for not getting into a US med school.
 
There you can exercise your judgement about the superiority of MD/DO trainees, but you'll quickly come to your senses and beg for your child to be transferred to the NNP team.

This is the funniest thing I've read on SDN in months. I thought it was a literal joke.

Then I read this user's earlier comments which seem to disparage medical training in favor of nursing training because we "watch our lectures online" sometimes. Yikes.
 
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Sounds like someone's a little salty they got rejected from med school and have to use their online ethics courses to play doctor. Why don't you try those caribbean schools you made fun of earlier? I'm sure they're better than those online "doctor of" nursing physician assistant practitioner or whatever they call them nowadays.

Enjoy your community hospital jobs. I'll stick with my medical peers at one of the world's best hospitals who are giggling at you as we speak. Bye, paris.
 
This is the funniest thing I've read on SDN in months. I thought it was a literal joke.

Then I read this user's earlier comments which seem to disparage medical training in favor of nursing training because we "watch our lectures online" sometimes. Yikes.

I'm just taking a page out of your playbook.
 
I think it would be great if the 'anti-midlevel' crowd of SDN took pride in their efforts by donning pins, sashes, or bandanas that identified them as such.....like the white nationalists who also base their arguments on nonsense - they wave flags. This way your non-virtual peers will know who the *****s are ahead of time.
 
I think it would be great if the 'anti-midlevel' crowd of SDN took pride in their efforts by donning pins, sashes, or bandanas that identified them as such.....like the white nationalists who also base their arguments on nonsense - they wave flags. This way your non-virtual peers will know who the *****s are ahead of time.

I think I speak for everyone when I say we’re not anti midlevel.

Midlevels have an important job in our healthcare system for sure. You should understand, though, that’s it’s very offputting to compare nurses or midlevels to physicians. Physicians have years more of education and experience. It seems like you have a lot of confidence that you somehow received an education comparable to physicians...but the saying goes “you don’t know what you don’t know.”

FWIW, those Carib docs you disparaged are just as qualified as US docs seeing as they had to have performed superbly on the USMLE (testing of medicine knowledge) to have placed in residency here. No midlevel would succeed on this test because you aren’t taught to understand the minutiae of physiological process. Understand the midlevel role is to assist the physician...and your training is geared to that.

Also your argument about being at a nice hospital kindve speaks to the immaturity I think you’re showing on this topic. By that logic, the janitor and Harvard Medical School has some sort of advantage over a “lowly” medicine resident at Bronx Lebanon hospital. I really don’t get this argument. So midlevels making 120k (tops) at Mayo Clinic are snickering at the hospitalist making 300K for 14 shifts at the local community hospital? Ok.

TL;DR: There’s levels to this ****
 
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It seems like if you pursue feedback from people, turns out they tend to disregard what midlevels say if the actual doctor was involved in their care. Only general exception are lesser educated people.
This whole fear of the NP/PA takeover is ridiculous because patients ultimately want an actual doctor for the most part.
I think I speak for everyone when I say we’re not anti midlevel.

Midlevels have an important job in our healthcare system for sure. You should understand, though, that’s it’s very offputting to compare nurses or midlevels to physicians. Physicians have years more of education and experience. It seems like you have a lot of confidence that you somehow received an education comparable to physicians...but the saying goes “you don’t know what you don’t know.”

FWIW, those Carib docs you disparaged are just as qualified as US docs seeing as they had to have performed superbly on the USMLE (testing of medicine knowledge) to have placed in residency here. No midlevel would succeed on this test because you aren’t taught to understand the minutiae of physiological process. Understand the midlevel role is to assist the physician...and your training is geared to that.

Also your argument about being at a nice hospital kindve speaks to the immaturity I think you’re showing on this topic. By that logic, the janitor and Harvard Medical School has some sort of advantage over a “lowly” medicine resident at Bronx Lebanon hospital. I really don’t get this argument. So midlevels making 120k (tops) at Mayo Clinic are snickering at the hospitalist making 300K for 14 shifts at the local community hospital? Ok.

TL;DR: There’s levels to this ****

Clearly you don’t speak for the OP. A lot of you (not you in particular, just as a group) are not just anti mid-level, you are offensively so. There’s no hogwarts level incantation or spell cast upon a medical student graduate. The knowledge a newly minted physician has can be learned by any ‘mid level’ given enough years of practice and additional study. I’m tired of hearing arrogance and condescension from people who claim to be students of medicine.
 
Clearly you don’t speak for the OP. A lot of you (not you in particular, just as a group) are not just anti mid-level, you are offensively so. There’s no hogwarts level incantation or spell cast upon a medical student graduate. The knowledge a newly minted physician has can be learned by any ‘mid level’ given enough years of practice and additional study. I’m tired of hearing arrogance and condescension from people who claim to be students of medicine.

Sure, midlevels could read all day about the basic sciences med students learn and know it as well as they do. Unfortunately, that’s the least important part of the picture. A physician becomes a real physician through his or her residency training. A midlevel can never receive residency training and thus can never have that level of clinical knowledge. Conversely, if you try to say that much residency isn’t needed or that midlevels can get the same experience on the job, that is frankly disrespectful to all physicians in the world. You would be saying that we all have/will undergo extensive medical training followed by a brutal residency for no reason since we could’ve just became midlevels and eventually had the same knowledge base. You’re not saying that (yet), but just hypothetically because that would be the only response.

I agree that some people from my side may be offensive to the midlevel side but it depends on what you’re getting upset at. It is fact that physicians in general are more knowledgeable, better trained, and ultimately responsible for the patient. Therefore, they are better paid and generally more respected. That’s just the way it goes. If this grinds your gears as midlevel, then all I can say is the truth hurts.
 
Sure, midlevels could read all day about the basic sciences med students learn and know it as well as they do. Unfortunately, that’s the least important part of the picture. A physician becomes a real physician through his or her residency training. A midlevel can never receive residency training and thus can never have that level of clinical knowledge. Conversely, if you try to say that much residency isn’t needed or that midlevels can get the same experience on the job, that is frankly disrespectful to all physicians in the world. You would be saying that we all have/will undergo extensive medical training followed by a brutal residency for no reason since we could’ve just became midlevels and eventually had the same knowledge base. You’re not saying that (yet), but just hypothetically because that would be the only response.

I agree that some people from my side may be offensive to the midlevel side but it depends on what you’re getting upset at. It is fact that physicians in general are more knowledgeable, better trained, and ultimately responsible for the patient. Therefore, they are better paid and generally more respected. That’s just the way it goes. If this grinds your gears as midlevel, then all I can say is the truth hurts.

The residents I talk to often say that 80 percent of what you learn in residency you learn in the intern year, with the last 20 percent tweaking what you already know during the final two years. I realize residency is a difficult right of passage that prepares physicians to be physicians, but I disagree that a well rounded 'mid level' with years of experience in different areas of medicine wont end up with the same knowledge as a 'PGY4'. This concept that medical school and residency are magical and physicians are super human needs to stop, and it needs to stop with the medical students. A little tough love, if you're willing to hear it, is this attitude is what gives the profession a bad name. The experienced attendings are wonderful team players who respect all roles without condescension. I wish the medical students would copy their behavior. Some patients prefer NP's because of this mentality.
 
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