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drseanlive

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lets say you have an MD degree, no residency and an MBA from a top school, and you are going to enter the 'business' world...what kind of money would you expect to be starting at, and how would that advance as time goes on? I understand there is a huge variety, but I am trying to figure out if its fully worthwhile to take the business route....

Do the guys in business generally make more than the clinical counterparts? If you are money hungry and dont really care about being a clinician anymore, is it a no brainer to use the MD to get into business?

Also, how much does an MD help? Are you at a big advantage or no real advantage? Are doors opened with it? Will your starting salary be significantly higher than if you didn't have one?

Thanks.
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drseanlive said:
Do the guys in business generally make more than the clinical counterparts?
Click to expand...

Is this a serious question? How can you even compare the two groups?
 
well, it is a serious question because i am wondering what the catch is...the reason why plastics/derm/optho are all so competitive is basically because of $$ and lifestyle. So why isn't everyone dropping out of medicine and going to wallstreet.

Do you have any background to base your answer on, or is it just based on impression?
 
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drseanlive said:
lets say you have an MD degree, no residency and an MBA from a top school, and you are going to enter the 'business' world...what kind of money would you expect to be starting at, and how would that advance as time goes on? I understand there is a huge variety, but I am trying to figure out if its fully worthwhile to take the business route....

Do the guys in business generally make more than the clinical counterparts?
No, not even close. Aside from landing a primo spot in a biotech or VC start up company, you will make far less than the average run of the mill doc, sometimes working 10-15 hours more a week. A newly minted fellow I commanded as much if not more than CEOs of 3 closest biotech starts ups for comparison.

If you are money hungry and dont really care about being a clinician anymore, is it a no brainer to use the MD to get into business?
Nope, it actually is quite location dependent. Regardless, most people wont even consider you an MD without residency and even a subspec fellowship, 6-8 years more training.


Also, how much does an MD help? Are you at a big advantage or no real advantage? Are doors opened with it? Will your starting salary be significantly higher than if you didn't have one?
Depends, it will be higher than if you had a just a bachelors but for isntance if you are a MD from a crap tier 4 med school you will be well behind people with a BS, MBA or JD from a place like Stanford.

Thanks.
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See above
 
Working on Wall Street is not an easy lifestyle. Be prepared to work really long days to accomodate potential clients on the west coast if you live in NYC.

As for salary - that really depends on who you know, size of company, your growth potential, etc. You may start at a certain # but then quickly increase in leaps and bounds if you excel, demonstrate leadership, and climb the corporate ladder. In the corporate world, one way to quickly increase your salary is to look for a new position every 3-4 years.

Once again, corporate American lifestyle can often = working lots of hours, being a workaholic, and not having much of a family life if you're traveling all the time and working until 8-9 pm every night. Oh, and don't forget that you'll be attached to a BlackBerry that you'll be expected to answer at all hours of the night if you're ever dealing with night owls or international clients. If you thought your pager was bad, wait until you get a corporate BB.

So - the answer is - what kind of life do you want? Is $ the most important thing to you? Do you want to be in large corporate environment where you have to play the game to climb the ladder? Or the proper work/life balance that still allows you to pay your debts, enjoy nice vacations, and spend time with your family.

If you want to do some research, ask recruiters who will promise you high-paying jobs and get you some interviews.

For other resources:

http://nonclinical.blogspot.com/

http://www.prnresource.com/

Attend:
http://www.seak.com/semncc08.htm

and network with physician executives from various industries.

 
then how can you explain all the people who work for companies like mckinsey and say it was the best decision of their lives?

i thought it was common that business side of medicine was more ludrative and more fun (in terms of travel/lifestyle)....is this completely wrong?/
 
Overall, I agree with LADOC. An MD in business is rare, and you have to be from a really good school and/or have some contacts in place. I know guys with only a B.Sc. who are pretty much millionaires in there early to mid 30s.

Brains, drive & contacts is all you need.

I don't think anyone in the business world would be impressed that you have an MD, unless you're going into some rare niche like biotech or VC, and even then, MDs are rare.

You can make good money in medicine. Sky is the limit in finance if you work 24/7.
 
MBAs have more potential to strike it rich, but in general will make less.

MDs have far more job security and on average will make more.
 
JAMMAN said:
MBAs have more potential to strike it rich, but in general will make less.

MDs have far more job security and on average will make more.
Click to expand...


Correct budy!!
At least the starting salary looks very attractive for these MBAs
 
Best decision of their lives? All of my college budies went into business right out of college... all the top firms, McKinsey, Bain, Goldman, etc. The one thing in common is they all hate their lives. The consultants are always traveling, and the bankers live in their office. Sure they are making buttloads of cash, but most of my friends are pissing it all away on expensive meals, clothing, bottle service etc. to try and make the pain go away.

Random Anecdotes:
One friend quit and went to design school because doing power points / excel all day is a great way to make you lose all interest in living.
A few friends are trying to jump ship into PEG. Same horrible lifestyle, but you get paid even more.
Another slaved away literally pulling 120hr weeks only to get minimum bonus cause he didn't play the politics right (this means he made just over minimum wage).
Another guy is out on the red eye sunday night and flies back into town friday night every week unless he's off case. His relationship is tanking.

Keep in mind I haven't worked any of these jobs, but I just hear the horrible stories day after day. They say its like selling your soul for money. So who knows.
 
StevenRF said:
Best decision of their lives? All of my college budies went into business right out of college... all the top firms, McKinsey, Bain, Goldman, etc. The one thing in common is they all hate their lives. The consultants are always traveling, and the bankers live in their office. Sure they are making buttloads of cash, but most of my friends are pissing it all away on expensive meals, clothing, bottle service etc. to try and make the pain go away.

Random Anecdotes:
One friend quit and went to design school because doing power points / excel all day is a great way to make you lose all interest in living.
A few friends are trying to jump ship into PEG. Same horrible lifestyle, but you get paid even more.
Another slaved away literally pulling 120hr weeks only to get minimum bonus cause he didn't play the politics right (this means he made just over minimum wage).
Another guy is out on the red eye sunday night and flies back into town friday night every week unless he's off case. His relationship is tanking.

Keep in mind I haven't worked any of these jobs, but I just hear the horrible stories day after day. They say its like selling your soul for money. So who knows.
Click to expand...

It's true many bankers live in their office, but don't many surgeons live in the hospital too? I think the hours/week issue is not a good argument, because in both cases, business or medicine, if you want to make it big you have to put lots of hours.

Now, someone posted what I think is the big difference between the two fields. If you make it big in medicine, let's say, you become a successful neurosurgeon/ENT/cardiologist or whatever other high-paying specialty, you could make between 500-800k. If you're a successfull banker or you climb the corporate ladder in a big company, you'll be making in the tens of millions. I haven't heard of any physician making several millions a year.

In terms of the effort to put in both cases, people understimate the effort and luck it takes to go into the competitive residencies. You have to do really well on step 1, be good in your class, come from a reputable school, etc... you can't take all of this is for granted. Many people who want to go into the high paying specialties can't make it, and end up going into lower paying fields like neurology, peds, general surgery, etc... In none of these specialties you'd even get close to 300k.

What I'm saying is that if you're smart, and you're willing to work hard, it's likely you'll make it big in the business world... I'm not saying you'll necessarily be the most succesfull hedge fund manager who'll be making more than a billion dollars a year, or the CEO of any of the big investment firms, but you'll very likely climb the ladder and make several million dollars a year.
 
Hmmm.

StevenRF - Some good points, but someone, either you or your friends, is missing the big picture. Why did they go into this? I did consulting right out of undergrad and loved it, but in time I got sick of flights, hotels, meeting with clients, etc. I could care less about my expense account, airline & hotel points, etc. But, that's what I wanted to do at first! So what did I do after I learned that I dread it? I began to plan and worked harder than ever.

Sure, there were guys who bought a Lexus and other junk to null the pain or reward themselves, but I kept my focus knowing that this is a transient experience for me AFTER I realized and accepted that this is not for me, nor was jumping ship to a client what I wanted. I began to plan my exit strategy.

I left consulting after a couple of years, and now I'm in a new role which doesn't have much travel, and I can afford to do my post-bacc part time in the evenings (still tough though). Is my current job ideal? No. But you know what? I've garnered enough experience for a top 10 MBA program if I want to go that route, I'm about done with my CFA exams, I've saved and invested most of my money over the past couple of years, and I've learned more business sense than I could ever learn in school. I've had the opportunity to meet with a ridiculous amount of executives, portfolio managers, bankers, name it. I've traveled most of the U.S., albeit for business and not pleasure. Oh, and I have things like a paycheck and benefits. Sure, I can focus on Excel, meetings, everything which is negative, but I choose to focus on the positive here, and being smart with what I've earned didn't hurt as I made enough to finance a medical degree at this point and still live. The Rolex, the Lexus, whatever - that's all junk. I plowed it all into investments.

pdz makes some great points. Regardless of profession, you will need to work your tail off if you want to succeed. The only people I know who work full time at 40 hours a week are in the supermarket, and there is nothing wrong with doing that. If you have a more demanding career, then be prepared to work if you want to move up and if you want to make money.

Oh, and I've seen interesting career changers as well. I'm doing a post-bacc now, and there is an ex trader and an ex banker in my class. A girl in my consulting firm quit and moved to France for culinary school, and another guy quit and bought an RV - dude wanted to travel the States. This stuff happens all the time. Look at the big picture, plan accordingly, and make sure to save & invest some cash along the way.
 
pdz said:
What I'm saying is that if you're smart, and you're willing to work hard, it's likely you'll make it big in the business world... I'm not saying you'll necessarily be the most succesfull hedge fund manager who'll be making more than a billion dollars a year, or the CEO of any of the big investment firms, but you'll very likely climb the ladder and make several million dollars a year.
Click to expand...

It is very very difficult to make millions of dollars a year, even in business. How, exactly? That basically means doing extremely well in finance or as an entrepreneur, either of which take a hell of a lot more than just being smart and hardworking.
 
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It is very very difficult to make millions of dollars a year, even in business. How, exactly? That basically means doing extremely well in finance or as an entrepreneur, either of which take a hell of a lot more than just being smart and hardworking.
Click to expand...

Agreed, however, the potential to make more is available in business; not as much in medicine, but either field will grant you good pay. The vast majority of people on this planet will never touch a six figure salary.

It's still about being smart and working hard though.
 
beetlerum said:
It is very very difficult to make millions of dollars a year, even in business. How, exactly? That basically means doing extremely well in finance or as an entrepreneur, either of which take a hell of a lot more than just being smart and hardworking.
Click to expand...

Pavo and michaelrack both said it right. I'm not saying it's easy to make several millions a year, but working in any investment firm gives you the chance to attain that. You can't dream of that in medicine.

The whole point is that in medicine you have to put lot of effort to go through med school and residency. Everyone knows that life as a resident is really tough, with a very low pay and usually poor benefits (employer wouldn't match your 401K). Again, to get the competitive residencies, you have to work very hard in med school. And in most cases, the more lucrative specialties require lot of hours and have bad life quality (neurosurgeons, cardiovascular surgeons, etc...of course, there are exceptions: opht, ENT, etc...).

Moreover, the trend in our health care system is that more pay cuts are on the way. But even now, it is a minority of doctors who would earn more than 500k. I would say most of doctors earn 200-250k. That's very close to the salary you'd get 2 years off your MBA in any reputable investment firm. Go figure. For some reason real state in Manhattan is that high. And obviously it is not doctors driving those prices up!

You have to go for what you want. Medicine is a great and fulfilling career if you want to take care of sick people, and make a change in their lives. It is not the thing you go for if you want money. Because believe me, if you are willing to put the same effort, you'd get much more money doing something else.
 
it is a minority of doctors who would earn more than 500k. I would say most of doctors earn 200-250k. That's very close to the salary you'd get 2 years off your MBA in any reputable investment firm. Go figure. For some reason real state in Manhattan is that high. And obviously it is not doctors driving those prices up!

You have to go for what you want. Medicine is a great and fulfilling career if you want to take care of sick people, and make a change in their lives. It is not the thing you go for if you want money. Because believe me, if you are willing to put the same effort, you'd get much more money doing something else.
Click to expand...
If you want to make money, then go into business/finance. You cannot compete with the money you can make IF you go to a well known school and you have contacts and some drive.

A buddy of mine worked for 3 years at an investment firm right out of undergrad. He worked hard, but he also saved/invested a good $150k in those 3 years, so at 25 years old he had a cool $150k to him, if not more. He's finishing up his MBA at a top 5 school as I type, and enjoying life - golfing, traveling, etc. He has a job lined up with Goldman once he graduates in a couple of months. He interned there last summer and probably made $10k for interning there over the summer. He'll start at a base of $120k, he'll probably have a nice signing bonus, and he has the potential to obtain a annual bonus that is 100% of his base pay - this is just the first year out of business school and he is 27/28 years old right now. If you can last a few years, then your total compensation is over $300k. If you stay there a decade, then were talking seven figures.

Of course, this isn't a static model and it depends on the ball bouncing right a few times, but in terms of making real money, this is how it's done. You cannot compare an MD to this. My buddy will be retired as a multi-millionaire by the time the MD finishes his residencies and fellowships to obtain that high paying specialty gig. At what age does a cardiologist or neurosurgeon start making real money? Residencies/fellowships don't count as real money. Also, business/finance is nowhere near as competitive as the highly specialized MD areas - lay a good foundation in undergrad (Tier 1 or 2) and on your first job (does not have to be a bank) + solid GMAT score and some volunteering = top MBA program. The formula for success in medicine isn't as simple.
 
It's very impt to do what you like. I myself could never put in the long hours in the business world even to make top money. If you do something for the money, most likely you will not be good at it. Second those who are in it for the love of it will kick your arse only because they enjoy what they are doing and are good at it.

There are always business opps in medicine if you have the entrepreneurial spirit, more in some fields than others.

In short, if you are doing something for the money and not for the love of it, you will suck at it and you and others will notice.

Pavo said:
If you want to make money, then go into business/finance. You cannot compete with the money you can make IF you go to a well known school and you have contacts and some drive.

A buddy of mine worked for 3 years at an investment firm right out of undergrad. He worked hard, but he also saved/invested a good $150k in those 3 years, so at 25 years old he had a cool $150k to him, if not more. He's finishing up his MBA at a top 5 school as I type, and enjoying life - golfing, traveling, etc. He has a job lined up with Goldman once he graduates in a couple of months. He interned there last summer and probably made $10k for interning there over the summer. He'll start at a base of $120k, he'll probably have a nice signing bonus, and he has the potential to obtain a annual bonus that is 100% of his base pay - this is just the first year out of business school and he is 27/28 years old right now. If you can last a few years, then your total compensation is over $300k. If you stay there a decade, then were talking seven figures.

Of course, this isn't a static model and it depends on the ball bouncing right a few times, but in terms of making real money, this is how it's done. You cannot compare an MD to this. My buddy will be retired as a multi-millionaire by the time the MD finishes his residencies and fellowships to obtain that high paying specialty gig. At what age does a cardiologist or neurosurgeon start making real money? Residencies/fellowships don't count as real money. Also, business/finance is nowhere near as competitive as the highly specialized MD areas - lay a good foundation in undergrad (Tier 1 or 2) and on your first job (does not have to be a bank) + solid GMAT score and some volunteering = top MBA program. The formula for success in medicine isn't as simple.
Click to expand...
 
Pavo said:
If you want to make money, then go into business/finance. You cannot compete with the money you can make IF you go to a well known school and you have contacts and some drive.

A buddy of mine worked for 3 years at an investment firm right out of undergrad. He worked hard, but he also saved/invested a good $150k in those 3 years, so at 25 years old he had a cool $150k to him, if not more. He's finishing up his MBA at a top 5 school as I type, and enjoying life - golfing, traveling, etc. He has a job lined up with Goldman once he graduates in a couple of months. He interned there last summer and probably made $10k for interning there over the summer. He'll start at a base of $120k, he'll probably have a nice signing bonus, and he has the potential to obtain a annual bonus that is 100% of his base pay - this is just the first year out of business school and he is 27/28 years old right now. If you can last a few years, then your total compensation is over $300k. If you stay there a decade, then were talking seven figures.

Of course, this isn't a static model and it depends on the ball bouncing right a few times, but in terms of making real money, this is how it's done. You cannot compare an MD to this. My buddy will be retired as a multi-millionaire by the time the MD finishes his residencies and fellowships to obtain that high paying specialty gig. At what age does a cardiologist or neurosurgeon start making real money? Residencies/fellowships don't count as real money. Also, business/finance is nowhere near as competitive as the highly specialized MD areas - lay a good foundation in undergrad (Tier 1 or 2) and on your first job (does not have to be a bank) + solid GMAT score and some volunteering = top MBA program. The formula for success in medicine isn't as simple.
Click to expand...




Is he a medico?
 
Talk to some executive recruiters - they'll provide you with some realistic #'s based on their most recent placements. You'll see that the #'s really vary across the board.
 
if you are doing something for the money and not for the love of it, you will suck at it and you and others will notice.
Click to expand...

I agree, pick your area(s) of interest and strive to be the best at it. Money, and everything else will follow.

Your absolutely right. 'All' a person has to do is go to a top 5 school, get a position at Goldman Sachs and waltz to a top position. Its simple really. And, better yet, its all available to med students because no one else has figured this out.

Believe me, if it were this straightforward, everyone would do it.
Click to expand...

Uh, hmmm. Okay. Let me lay some groundwork here because my previous post was a brief.

It's not easy, but it's simple. The same thing goes for getting rich, not easy, but simple to do.

My friend is older than me by a few years. He went to a Tier 1 undergrad, graduated with honors, played golf in high school & college, social, outgoing, etc.

Landed his first job, worked long hours, befriended the right people in the organization, and landed accounts/projects that had great exposure. Long hours and befriending the right people is KEY to success in the business world.

He was promoted after 2 years, and did much of the same - long hours, right network. He volunteered at some places on the side, and nailed his GMAT - got into a top 5 program.

B school isn't tough; it's tough to get into a top 5 program. He got in, continued to network, landed a Goldman internship. Graduating this year and already has an offer secured from them. He'll be starting in a few months.

Hmm. He has been doing everything right over the past few years, and I don't see him slowing down either. It's not about being smart, but you need good grades. Pardon the cliche, but it's more about personality and befriending the right people. It's about staying on top of your game and planning ahead, years down the road of where you want to be. It's about being known in an organization as a go to person; it's about leadership. Of course, he has an interest in what he does - finance, and within finance, institutional sales. That's what he loves to do and that's what he is great at.

I've only been working 2.5 years now out of undergrad (started fall of 05). I graduated with a B.Sc. (Honors), secured work by networking well before graduating college while many friends where still slamming jager bombs and hitting bongs, and pulled many 80 hour weeks once I got in while many friends were still slamming jager bombs. Befriended the right people along the way; left consulting for a product management position with more sane hours while working on my post-bacc at night and here I am today. Along the way I never interviewed, but I turned down offers from traders, sales, and other fin. services organizations.

It's about having a network in place, delivering on your promises, and being better (more valuable) than the guy next to you. It's about taking initiative and convincing others that you are the best person for this role and you know what the heck you are doing and talking about; it's about leadership. Basically, convince them that they would be a fool to pass you up; you need to look through the lens of a CEO in your business dealings.

Every person I meet in life is an interview, and I treat it as such. I make sure to make great impressions; with that people have asked me to come work for them by the end of our conversation, and with my current volunteering position, have asked me to join the leadership board of the organization.

Medicine is a different beast. HereI am struggling to master chemistry in my free time. I'm not kidding you! This stuff is tough. But I can hold a meeting with executives on business strategy and leave the room knowing that I made a very good impression and I will deliver on what I promised. I'm not the smartest guy out there, I'm not the brightest, but I am willing to work very hard and long hours. I know who to become very good friends with - the people who will take me places as opposed to just work for a paycheck. I know how to treat people. Business is all about relationships; those will land you the opportunities to go places. Once you land the opportunities then you better deliver on what you promised, and pardon the cliche, but overdeliver. Never stop nurturing your relationships and never stop hunting for the next opportunity.

Perhaps the success in business will rest more along the lines of interests and personality traits than anything else. I know PhD's who are doing well in business, but I know guys with just a B.Sc., many times from a lesser known college, who are making serious dough.
 
My prediction is I-banking is going to get raped in the coming recession/depression. That is not something I would hitch my wagon to at this point.

Yes there will still be people pulling down 7 figs, but be prepared for mass lay offs of hitherto unknown proportions in global finance.

And trust me, no one is going to have sympathy for these types when the dust settles.
 
LADOC -

one can't compare MD salaries to CEO salaries at startup firms since the majority of compensation is the equity stake and/or options upside. But your general point is correct: most MDs in the buisness world won't make as much as their sub-specialist colleagues (primary care might be a different argument).

MDs in high-end finance on Wall Street will probably make more though, assuming one isn't fired.
 
dropout said:
LADOC -

one can't compare MD salaries to CEO salaries at startup firms since the majority of compensation is the equity stake and/or options upside. But your general point is correct: most MDs in the buisness world won't make as much as their sub-specialist colleagues (primary care might be a different argument).

MDs in high-end finance on Wall Street will probably make more though, assuming one isn't fired.
Click to expand...

You know how many start ups have stock options that are actually worth something?? VERY FEW.

Cali isnt all Google and Microsoft...

I will own the crap out of 99% MDs in VC, dabbling in small biotech companies and those doing consulting for medical device companies and I will work 1/2 the number of hours they do...
 
The amount you make in clinical practice is relative. It won't be uniform in all specialties and in all places you go to. Thus, having an MD doesn't guarantee big success all the time. Do not forget the doctors who work in small towns, or the specialist who has to compete with his colleagues and the more established ones, or the one who chose a sub specialty with not much patients (and thus, making big bucks only when he does have them) . I know of a surgical oncologist (he's my senior and friend) working in 2 top notch hospitals who tells me he's the "poorest" in the family. All his brothers are in business or in finance.

As for whether consulting will be rewarding, I think it's case-to-case: some might think it's the best decision in their lives compared to their lives in clinical practice, while others may think otherwise. It depends on what you want or what sort of lifestyle you seek. For instance, I would give up a clinical life which requires me to be on call 24/7 and would welcome a life where I only have to work 12 hours a day with most weekends off on a relatively predictable field than in an extremely unpredictable working day in surgery.

I think we can agree that, as previously mentioned, the potential to make more is better in business than in medicine. But I think, either way, we can agree that both fields make a lot, requires hard work, long hours, so you might as well choose which career or lifestyle suits you and will make you feel happy.
 
Not to completely break up or diverge from this topic, but let's say we're talking about super-competitive residencies or MD-business/management occupations. Earlier someone said that attending a "crap tier 3 or 4 medical school" could make things harder later on. Does the medical school you attend truly matter, or just how well you do at that particular school in obtaining these positions? In particular, will attending a SUNY medical school (or any state school in that category) end up changing the options available for that person, with all else being equal (if that even makes sense)?
 
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