letter grades vs. pass/fail etc. in med school

[btowngirl]

I was wondering what people think about the different types of grading systems. What do you think are good and bad about each one? I am trying to determine schools to apply to based on what type of system (and other criteria) I would work best in and I am not sure. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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[ironey]

It may not really matter . . . even at some of the "Pass/Fail" institutions, there is a faculty committee keeping track of your academic performance and ranking the class based on a "GPA" type scale. They've got to evaluate students some way, and as long as you are receiving graded evaluations (no matter the scale), the school will use them.

I'm at an honor/pass/fail institution, but I know that the CESC is keeping track of my number scores to use for my residency evals. No matter how much the advising dean tells us that our year 1 and 2 grades don't really matter, I can't help but keep a running talley in my mind. . . .

There is some discussion about our school moving towards simply pass/fail grades. Frankly, I think it's a good idea only if those are the ONLY grades that the school keeps track of. It bothers me that there is some sort of clandestine GPA system no matter what our transcripts say. I would love to see the students at my school feel that they have more time to devote to community service projects and clinical experience. As it is now, there is a trade-off for many of us: if we choose experience, we choose to simply pass instead of honor.

 

[JohnnieBlue]

I want to second some stuff that ironey mentioned. While I don't start school until this fall, I've learned some stuff in the application process.

First, know that p/f is not p/f in many schools. When I visited NYU for example, they told me that its so relaxed because the first two years are pass/fail and in the clinical years, everyone gets an A, A-, or B+. I went on and asked them how the school can distinguish between students when they apply to residency, and also how they go about awarding an honor such as AOA. With a little pressing, everyone pretty much admitted to me that while your transcript is P/F, the Dean's office knows who the top students are. Basically, if you want a competitive residency, don't fool yourself into thinking that your 71 is as good as someone else's 96 just because your transcripts both say "pass." That said, NYU is still a pretty chilled out place.

At Einstein however, I ran into a similar situation where they also have p/f for the first 2 years. I pressed them with the same question, but they stuck to their guns. I even know someone who did average in his first 2 years, but recieved honors on 5 out of 6 rotations and got AOA. So, my advice is to ask questions of each school and don't let them feed you BS answers. Find out the reality as best as you can. It most likely will come from students and not from the Adcom.

If you are really looking for no competition, I suggest looking into a school such as Yale, where p/f is really pass/fail and no rankings are assigned because there is no AOA. Obviously, not eveyone can go to Yale, and most schools don't go to the extreme of the Yale system, but there are a bunch out there who don't do AOA.

Personally, I need some kind of motivation to push myself to work harder. Many people are motivated enough to study for 10 hours a day, even for a pass. While I don't plan on being a gunner, I think I need something to work towards instead of just trying to "get by," even if getting by in med school still means putting in countless hours of work. Other people would rather not have to be anxious about how they fall in the curve, and therefore opt for pass/fail. (ie- When I told a friend at Yale that I was also interviewing at Hopkins, he told me that if I would even consider Hopkins, there is no way I should go to Yale. In the end, neither school wanted me, but the story proves a point.) You need to ask yourself what you think you need to succeed.

On a final note, look out for pass/fail/honors. These systems are as good (or bad) as grades in my mind. Honors=A, Pass=B. Its silly that they think they can mask it, but they try.

 

[patzan]

And some schools call their system p/f when it is really fail/pass/high pass/honors (= D/C/B/A)

What gets me is that they really think that we are going to buy that they are really p/f.

 

[VCMM414]

And some schools call their system p/f when it is really fail/pass/high pass/honors (= D/C/B/A)

What gets me is that they really think that we are going to buy that they are really p/f.

*Sorry patzan, not trying to pick on USC (southern cal) on purpose here, it's just that your signature reminded me of something about the school...*

At Keck/USC, the official grading system is p/f. However, at the end of each year the top 10 or 15% of the class is eligible to receive the "dean's recognition," and this will show up on your transcript. I think this dean's recognition is based upon different things: your grades, project (?), your performance on an end-of-year evaluation exam on all your classes, extracurricular, etc. So...this is another example of distinguishing the top students from the rest while still technically maintaining a p/f system. Regardless, USC students still are fairly relaxed and don't seem to really worry about it.

 

[Jalby]

The grades that USC is reffering to is the year end test that is at the end of each year. Deans recognition is given to people who score in the top half (but really top quarter) of the year end tests who have good evals from their ICM (clinical) instructors.

As for the grades here counting for AOA, for my class the actual grades count 15% towards AOA, with the year end tests counting for 45%, and third year grades counting for 40%. For the class below me, I think they got rid of the 15% for first two year grades so teh 71 actually would be equal to the 96.





As for teh discussion of this thread, there was a good discussion in the allo thread about there. There was two cases of people who's schools switched from Pss/Fail to grades and it brought out all of the gunners (trying to quote)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=97397

 

[patzan]

My point was that I didn't buy it. Of course schools have to rank their students for residency,AOA, etc. I liked USC's way of doing it best.

 

[missbonnie]

Yale DOES have AOA, but you dont find out if you got till 4th yr (i.e. after you match) so it doesn't really do much for macthing.

 

[exmike]

Very very very few schools have TRUE pass fail.

When I was at mount sinai, they told us they were pass fail. When we inquired further, they admitted that they kept interal rankings of all the students 1-120 using their first two years grades. On your transcript it will say P/F, but they DO have a ranking to use on your deans letter. If there is an internal ranking, I don't see how that makes it pass fail.

Case western has true pass fail. The administration only records if you passed or failed a class, and no record is kept of your score on exams at all. Therefore your evaluations only start to matter during rotations when they revert to the traditional H/HP/P/F model.

This is what I loved about Case. After all, what is the point of stimulating competition during the preclinical years? Promoting a collegial atomosphere will probably result in the group learning more collectively since there is no fear in helping out your fellow classmate and thus boosting the curve.

Of course P/F isnt as helpful during rotations since you arent graded against the whole class like you are in preclinical sciences, and the school still needs a way to evaluate you.

I know some people that say they need that "curve" to push them to achieve and for those people maybe a A/B/C/F school is for them. And of course, Gunners love A/B/C/F and H/HP/P/LP/F .

 

[principessa]

(ie- When I told a friend at Yale that I was also interviewing at Hopkins, he told me that if I would even consider Hopkins, there is no way I should go to Yale. In the end, neither school wanted me, but the story proves a point.) You need to ask yourself what you think you need to succeed.

Oops! I considered Hopkins, but I'm going to Yale in the fall. I think the point for me is that the grading system was just one thing I considered, and it was a relatively minor factor. Try to decide which grading system would work best for you, but also decide how important it is compared to other factors.

 

[pjr28]

Very very very few schools have TRUE pass fail.

When I was at mount sinai, they told us they were pass fail. When we inquired further, they admitted that they kept interal rankings of all the students 1-120 using their first two years grades. On your transcript it will say P/F, but they DO have a ranking to use on your deans letter. If there is an internal ranking, I don't see how that makes it pass fail.

Case western has true pass fail. The administration only records if you passed or failed a class, and no record is kept of your score on exams at all. Therefore your evaluations only start to matter during rotations when they revert to the traditional H/HP/P/F model.

This is what I loved about Case. After all, what is the point of stimulating competition during the preclinical years? Promoting a collegial atomosphere will probably result in the group learning more collectively since there is no fear in helping out your fellow classmate and thus boosting the curve.

Of course P/F isnt as helpful during rotations since you arent graded against the whole class like you are in preclinical sciences, and the school still needs a way to evaluate you.

I know some people that say they need that "curve" to push them to achieve and for those people maybe a A/B/C/F school is for them. And of course, Gunners love A/B/C/F and H/HP/P/LP/F .

It is true that very few places shave pass/fail curriculum, but Harvard is one of them. That was definitely one of the deciding factors in my decision to apply to HMS. The only other schools that I know of that do this, which were already mentioned, are Albert Einstein and Case. I think it is a great way to foster copoperation betweeen classmates and constuct a true medical community. If you have any questions about HMS, pm me. Good luck with the process!

 

[jlee9531]

i thought all schools will be required by AMCAS to have internal rankings at p/f schools by a certain deadline (2006?), so that residency directors can have some more info when it comes to evaluating students.

 

[exmike]

i thought all schools will be required by AMCAS to have internal rankings at p/f schools by a certain deadline (2006?), so that residency directors can have some more info when it comes to evaluating students.

is that right?! good thing ill be done with preclinical by then! This will be interesting if it is true.

Jlee, maybe AAMC means internal rankings if they have P/F for clinicals? I know some schools had P/F clinicals before. Maybe there are still some stragglers? Tulane comes to mind for this. They used to be P/F all four years.

 

[Jalby]

Tulane?? P/F??? When I interviewed there Dr. Pisani told us a great story about how they were one of the first P/F schools and the students complained so they moved back to grades.