letter of recommendation FAIL

[whiteshadodw]

so i emailed my PI last night asking for a strong letter of support for a scholarship i'm about to apply for. i get this reply, "sure, but it will include the business about the grade appeal"...

ok...

i took a class with my PI, she was coteaching with another professor, the class was officially listed under the other professor. i got a B by 10 points, due to some incredibly inept TAs (ie, teacher asks for definition of X, i write down definition of X from the book, i lose 4 points, etc, etc). so i informally appealed my grade to the head instructor, she says NO. mind you, this professor also made the whole class do 20 points of extra stuff on the final exam, because she caught a select few cheating on the last problem set. obviously i feel bummed, so I do a formal appeal through the college of science. this thing was a semester long process and I was basically able to convince 3 CoS (college of science) faculty members and two students that I deserved an A. i presented my case to the committee and so did the head instructor, but my PI seemed to be left in the dark. the committee recommends a grade change to the associate dean, and the associate dean agrees.

let me briefly explain my case. the main instructor obviously had some issue and wasn't going to give me the A no matter what. their syllabus also said that an 80% on the HW was an A, 90% on tests A, and 90% on discussion points was an A. the way she assigned grades was based on 90/90/90, so 90 total. if you factored the 80% on HW was an A, I would have gotten an A. anyways, i thought this info might be needed.

so, what the hell do i do? this scholarship is through the CoS, so I can sort of see why she would want to mention this, but i'm still a little lost. is this her way of saying that she doesn't want to write the letter? i'm a little shocked because she's always commending me and has an awful amount of trust in me. i'm literally always in lab and likes how i work like i'm a "grad student". i've taught half the current students how to do the assays they're doing and about half the rotation students that come in... i just won an award for my research at a conference, and she seemed proud that i was representing the lab. so her reply to my email was a little bit of a shock... i'm more worried about what would happen when i need her letter in may/june for MSTP or MD...

do i accept the letter or should i talk to her about it?

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[flip26]

She is telling you to buzz off.

Do NOT take this letter. Drop it.

Don't you have other profs who can write strong letters without any qualified remarks?

 

[bobsmith]

Since it seems like you're going to want to use a letter from her for MSTP/MD purposes (especially since I'm pretty sure MSTPs are going to want to see a letter from your PI), I'd probably talk to her first and try to explain your point-of-view about what happened with the grade thing. I mean, as you said, she was sort of in the dark about it, so maybe she doesn't know the story that you told us.

That being said, I probably wouldn't want to go in there all defensive about the grade change appeal and would probably acknowledge that it was sort of petty and not worth my time to go through that whole process (again, this is just my take on it - some professors really dislike grade grubbing and she might appreciate any maturity you have on the issue).

 

[whiteshadodw]

i think it'd be best to talk to her about it now. but honestly, i don't feel like it was petty and i'm not going to say that just to win her over. when i contacted the head instructor she didn't even read my appeal. abbreviated transcript of our email comm:

me: i was wondering if we could have a word about my grade in person some time?
head instructor: you have a B and you're 12 points away, nothing can help you. but write a written appeal.
me: here is the written appeal. what about this ambiguity in the syllabus?
head instructor: no.

i mean, my work and awards speak for the quality of my work. i'm not quite sure how relevant it would be for her to include the grade appeal in the letter... i mean, maybe because the scholarship is through CoS and the grade appeal was through the CoS and so maybe she has to get her side of the story clear? because, i could see how it looks bad on paper, she's supporting me and i filed an appeal against her colleague? i'm guessing when it comes to MSTP or MD apps it wouldn't be relevant, but because its within the university it needs to be addressed?

 

[bobsmith]

Yeah, I do think you should talk to her about it and try to figure out why she feels the need to include it in the letter. Maybe she's only including it because it's for a CoS thing, but it'd be good to know if she feels the need to include it because she thinks it says something about your character or something.

 

[whiteshadodw]

so how do i go about bringing this up? i mean, we don't really talk about stuff that's not lab related. its a strictly professional relationship, but her husband (who also works in the lab) is someone who i'm a little bit more connected with. but i don't want to talk to him to get the inside scoop because that might be a little awkward. do i just ask why she feels compelled to include this and maybe offer an explanation?

the letter would be due march 5, but i can't imagine they want a long letter for the scholarship, since my PS for it is limited to 1 page....maybe that has some extra weight in this issue?

 

[BBender716]

so how do i go about bringing this up? i mean, we don't really talk about stuff that's not lab related. its a strictly professional relationship, but her husband (who also works in the lab) is someone who i'm a little bit more connected with. but i don't want to talk to him to get the inside scoop because that might be a little awkward. do i just ask why she feels compelled to include this and maybe offer an explanation?

the letter would be due march 5, but i can't imagine they want a long letter for the scholarship, since my PS for it is limited to 1 page....maybe that has some extra weight in this issue?

I wouldn't talk to her husband. It makes it seem like you're going around her even though I know that's not your intent. I would just bring it out into the open. Right now you cannot take her LOR, if she's still sour about the grade change after you talk with her, then you still don't have her LOR, nothing lost nothing gained. Just be courteous, see what the real issue is, and then swallow your pride and tell her everything she wants to hear. Such is life.

 

[bobsmith]

I wouldn't go around her and talk to her husband.

I don't know what sort of relationship you have with your PI, but I would either drop by her office and gently ask if you could talk about the letter of rec or, if you don't have a drop-by-and-talk sort of relationship, shoot her an email and ask if you could meet in person and talk about the LOR more in depth. Then, in person, you can ask her what she meant by "including the business about the grade appeal" and you can have a discussion from there.

 

[J ROD]

Forget about it!!!

 

[whiteshadodw]

Forget about it!!!

could you please explain? it's hard to win awards for your research which represents your lab and then get a bad LOR? and i've been working in this lab for a year now (the other lab i worked in for 6 months)... i mean, how can i NOT get a letter from my PI right now? i'll have some publications soon too...

another thing i just thought of was that the head instructor probably sits on the committee for this scholarship. my PI can't write this letter if the head instructor is going to see it.

 

[dokein]

You need to talk to your PI very sincerely about the LOR. Do not try to go behind her back by talking to her husband--no matter how close you think you are, I guarantee his WIFE is closer, and she will inevitably hear about it.

Resolve the issue with the grades now, or else you cannot risk using her letter for medical school applications. But if you have done a good job and she seems to be proud of you, there is a significant chance she just needs to address it for the CoS thing.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

If you don't somehow clear up this LOR business for the scholarship please, for the love of all that is holy, don't send it off to med schools.

If you find out that she really did in fact mean "I don't want to write you a letter" you should be happy she told you, she could have just as easily written you a very bad letter and had you send it off to every school you applied to.

 

[JJMrK]

Ideally, you probably don't want to use her letter. The problem is it might look weird if you apply MSTP and don't use her letter at that point. I would go talk to her in person, ask what exactly she would include about the grade appeal, and try to straighten things out.

 

[Morsetlis]

Some people just have a gigantic axe to grind. Avoid them in life.

 

[whiteshadodw]

time for an update:

haven't had a chance to talk to my PI regarding the ish, she's been teaching and rarely comes into lab/her office and now i'm on spring break, but hopefully i'll see her tomorrow and talk to her about this.

however, to complicate things a little more. we're publishing a manuscript soon, and here is the author list (in order):

post-doc, student who graduated last may (in med school now and as far as i'm aware didn't do much work on this project), grad student (definitely didn't do anything on this project as far as i'm aware because he asked me for my poster on this project), ME, two collaborators, my PI.

i feel a little hard done, but maybe i'm being too critical? of course, we apparently have 3 more papers that we're planning to publish (with various contributors). the med school student probably won't be an author on these papers, but i'm gonna feel screwed if this grad student is listed as an author before me. i'm starting to get this feeling i'm not liked by my PI.

in any case, for those of you interested and waiting on my news, i have to talk to her about a letter for a grant i'm applying for real soon. i'm setting a deadline to talk to her, you guys will know by friday.

 

[drizzt3117]

Honestly, I think that you're in pretty good shape getting published after a year of work regardless of author position. As an undergrad, it's hard no matter how much you contribute to a project. As far as the letter, though, I'd have some concerns about using it.

 

[Arjuna]

You see, the unfortunate truth of the matter is that there are tons of PI's that are bitter about not getting into Medical School. Some are upfront about it, especially when they teach (Reflected in their nonchalant grading, and asinine comments to pre-meds.)Others, like your PI, are not so upfront. Then there are those that are truly happy with having to write grants every year and waiting under their bedsheets, praying for it to be approved (how many: a minuscule amount.)

So, in my opinion you should NOT send in this letter. UNLESS, you are willing to see it before you send it off; its just that you would forgo that "no peeking" rule- but who cares, its your career at stake here, and I'm sure med schools won't care as much as they would if you didn't send in the letter at ALL, especially if you are applying to a research heavy, top 15 school. (Harvard for example, requires letters from ALL PIs-although there are exceptions; ask @JLA about that- she was accepted HST at Harvard without the letter from her most successful research experience/current PI). If you are not applying to research heavy schools, it wont matter AS much, but still, try to see what she has written before sending it off. Good luck, I would hate to be in your situation.

 

[whiteshadodw]

You see, the unfortunate truth of the matter is that there are tons of PI's that are bitter about not getting into Medical School. Some are upfront about it, especially when they teach (Reflected in their nonchalant grading, and asinine comments to pre-meds.)Others, like your PI, are not so upfront. Then there are those that are truly happy with having to write grants every year and waiting under their bedsheets, praying for it to be approved (how many: a minuscule amount.)

So, in my opinion you should NOT send in this letter. UNLESS, you are willing to see it before you send it off; its just that you would forgo that "no peeking" rule- but who cares, its your career at stake here, and I'm sure med schools won't care as much as they would if you didn't send in the letter at ALL, especially if you are applying to a research heavy, top 15 school. (Harvard for example, requires letters from ALL PIs-although there are exceptions; ask @JLA about that- she was accepted HST at Harvard without the letter from her most successful research experience/current PI). If you are not applying to research heavy schools, it wont matter AS much, but still, try to see what she has written before sending it off. Good luck, I would hate to be in your situation.

i see what you're saying. in fact, i think that the current issue is that we're having trouble securing a grant. so its kind of hard times for the lab i guess? my experience has been pretty fruitful i would say, but this whole situation is making me second guess wanting to stay in this lab for my off year (if that will even be a possibility given the situation with the grant). i'm very seriously considering switching labs even though i currently really like the work. of course, this all depends on the LOR situation, if it gets sorted out then i'll probably stay. but i'm starting to get annoyed by all this. i have the option to work for a professor who truly cares about my career, in fact he's always checking up on me to see if i've taken the MCATs/GREs. the only reason i didn't end up working there was cuz his lab was extremely full.

ps. i'm applying to MSTP programs hopefully, that's my greatest desire, so this letter is extremely important.

 

[whiteshadodw]

ok. so, i finally talked to her. and here is the story.

basically, she said that i had amazing lab work, but that my grade appeal says something about my academic integrity. apparently she thinks that i cheated on a hw assignment, but then didn't do anything about it. since the homework assignment was apparently compromised (apparently everyone cheated). we had to write an essay on why cheating is bad on our final exam. according to her my essay on cheating was good, but my friend wrote down some BS along the lines of "cheating is bad, but its the instructor's faults that the hw was compromised because the instructors were lazy and didn't change the hw from last years hw". so i'm basically guilty by association. in any case, she knew about the grade appeal the whole time and said she didn't want to say anything about it to me because she knew i wasn't going to get it. however, i ended up getting the grade appeal, so i think she's a little upset that i got the grade appeal. in any case, apparently i'm a sociopath because i can do whatever i want.....and she's not going to write me a letter, and i'm not going to accept one from her.

so...what to do now? definitely going to be working another lab this summer/next year, but is it even worth it to apply to MSTP programs this cycle? can i get a LOR from a thesis advisor instead of a PI, or what?

 

[Yeesh]

ok. so, i finally talked to her. and here is the story.

basically, she said that i had amazing lab work, but that my grade appeal says something about my academic integrity. apparently she thinks that i cheated on a hw assignment, but then didn't do anything about it. since the homework assignment was apparently compromised (apparently everyone cheated). we had to write an essay on why cheating is bad on our final exam. according to her my essay on cheating was good, but my friend wrote down some BS along the lines of "cheating is bad, but its the instructor's faults that the hw was compromised because the instructors were lazy and didn't change the hw from last years hw". so i'm basically guilty by association. in any case, she knew about the grade appeal the whole time and said she didn't want to say anything about it to me because she knew i wasn't going to get it. however, i ended up getting the grade appeal, so i think she's a little upset that i got the grade appeal. in any case, apparently i'm a sociopath because i can do whatever i want.....and she's not going to write me a letter, and i'm not going to accept one from her.

so...what to do now? definitely going to be working another lab this summer/next year, but is it even worth it to apply to MSTP programs this cycle? can i get a LOR from a thesis advisor instead of a PI, or what?

Sorry to hear what you're going through. I heard something similar to this a while back, although I don't think it was because of a grade appeal. Anyways, I heard that you can go to your majors advisor. I'm not sure, but if you signed a form as a student researcher for the lab, your PI was suppose to write a written description of your responsibilities and any project you'd be involved in. Your CoS should have that form on file. What you probably would be able to do is tell your majors advisor what's going on. Provide him/her with the form, a written statement about your role and responsibilities in the lab, any papers published or in progress, etc.

If your advisor agrees, you probably can get a letter from him/her. It can never replace your PI's letter, but at least you won't be left empty handed. Make sure your advisor wasn't on the committee for appeals though. If he was, then sorry, I have no othe rinformation for you. I was hoping maybe he or she would be your unbiased observer.

 

[Ichiro]

I am sorry that you have to deal with all this but you seem to be awfully accomplished in school, and I do not see how missing a letter of rec could totally ruin your chances. Unless of course you are aiming for Havard or John Hopkins. Anyway, look at it on the bright side, she could have not told you about what she was going to write about in the letter of rec and totally mess up your application.

 

[Kalyx]

I am sorry that you have to deal with all this but you seem to be awfully accomplished in school, and I do not see how missing a letter of rec could totally ruin your chances. Unless of course you are aiming for Havard or John Hopkins. Anyway, look at it on the bright side, she could have not told you about what she was going to write about in the letter of rec and totally mess up your application.

Wise words. I imagine this was a very stressful and heart-breaking episode for you, but you did avoid the worst-case scenario of a damning LOR behind your back!

Let this be a big lesson in the bitter, unfair exchanges between people of power and students that occur in academia. If such a grade-appeal process arises again, talk to the people involved immediately rather than letting things fester and go misunderstood through ambiguous chains of e-mail. If you're going to assume a large amount of responsibility for a particular research project, then talk to your PI at the onset about authorship, as authorship should reflect the amount of work that each participant has done.

This certainly hasn't screwed you over! You did good research and you gained valuable skills. You also have a great example of how NOT to behave when you are in an academic position of power someday.


~Kalyx

 

[jellybean13]

If the CoS dean(s) decided you deserved an A, then she is obviously just bitter about the fact that you had to go that far to get the grade you deserved. I agree with the above posters, find a letter elsewhere, your application will speak for itself.