Letters of Rec (Clinical Psychology) Please help!

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Ambitiousdreams

AngelaT
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Hey guys,

So I've recently graduated from UC Berkeley with a Bachelors in Psychology.
I have a strong research and clinical experience and an above 3.5 GPA. I'm planning to apply to graduate school for phD programs in Clinical Psychology but there is a major issue which has become a cause of concern for me. Currently, I can get 2 strong letters of recommendation from my internship and research supervisors. However, I'm in desperate need of a third letter since most of the programs I'm applying to require this. Sadly, as an undergraduate, I suffered from a very bad case of anxiety and didn't get to go to much office hours. As a result, I didn't get to form close relationships with any of my psychology professors or GSI's. I recently ran into one of my GSI's from a class in which I got a A+ in. I told him I needed a letter and he suggested that he could write me one. However, I'm very very hesitant since he doesn't know me well enough..... I'm out of options though and don't have enough time to start a new internship. Do you think I should risk it and ask him for the letter? What if he writes me a mediocre or bad one? I'm supposed to be focusing on the GRE now but my mind is ruminating about all these things and I can't focus. Please help! :( I'd really appreciate any advice!!!!

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What I have done when faced with a similar situation was asked that particular faculty member if there is anything you can provide them with to facilitate the writing process. I have often given this person information on my GPA, my activities and research experience/interest and so on which they have added to supplement the letter. Also I have had some faculty ask me to write the letter myself and they will sign it... I always thought that was odd, but best informed I suppose.

Best wishes!
 
By GSI do you mean graduate student instructor? Like a TA? I have always heard (and told my students when I was a TA) that letters from non-PhD non-professors don't hold much weight for clinical psych PhD programs. You really need to find a professor to write a letter.

:luck:
Dr. E
 
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Yeah, I meant Graduate student instructors.... Great in that case, I'm officially screwed. I really don't have any close connections to any of my professors. The anxiety that I experienced during my undergraduate years really prevented me from going to office hours and getting to know them. Should I even bother applying?! :( Oh and what if the letter is written by a GSI but is also signed by the Professor?
 
What if he writes me a mediocre or bad one?

Keep in mind that if someone agrees to write you a letter, they most likely will not write a bad one. They would rather decline.

I'd find a professor that you took a few classes from, email them to set up an appt, and ask for the letter in person. Say that you didn't really come in for their office hours but you loved their classes, these are the grades you got, and you felt as though their teaching style/research/whatever really struck you. Bring your cv and ask if they'd be willing to write a letter.

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Keep in mind that if someone agrees to write you a letter, they most likely will not write a bad one. They would rather decline.

I'd find a professor that you took a few classes from, email them to set up an appt, and ask for the letter in person. Say that you didn't really come in for their office hours but you loved their classes, these are the grades you got, and you felt as though their teaching style/research/whatever really struck you. Bring your cv and ask if they'd be willing to write a letter.

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^Thanks, I guess I'd better take a couple of anti-anxiety meds, and head to the Professor's office. I'm so terrified they might say "No" but I guess it's a risk I have to take. If I email them, what should I say? What would I be making the appointment for?
 
Keep in mind that if someone agrees to write you a letter, they most likely will not write a bad one. They would rather decline.

I'd find a professor that you took a few classes from, email them to set up an appt, and ask for the letter in person. Say that you didn't really come in for their office hours but you loved their classes, these are the grades you got, and you felt as though their teaching style/research/whatever really struck you. Bring your cv and ask if they'd be willing to write a letter.

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I agree. I would especially seek out professors whose classes you stood out in as even though you may not have schmoozed them outside of class I've found classes where I stood out (e.g., made the highest grade, answered questions frequently, wrote papers well) professors remembered me. I'm having third letter woes too and expressed this concern to my main research mentor and she mentioned this to another professor who I only took one class with, but that I stood out in. This professor told her that she felt she knew me well enough that she could write a very good letter for me.

However, I must ask- why are you so anxious to talk to professors? You do realize in grad school that you will be involved with them much more than you did as an undergrad?
 
^Thanks, I guess I'd better take a couple of anti-anxiety meds, and head to the Professor's office. I'm so terrified they might say "No" but I guess it's a risk I have to take. If I email them, what should I say? What would I be making the appointment for?

You could email them first, asking if they would be open to writing a letter for you and mention the classes you took with them and your grades. If they are receptive then make an appointment to discuss it further.

I don't think you should worry about being told no so much. From what I've heard from my profs and at workshops at conferences, profs often have a hard time saying no even if they don't even remember the student! I think asking "Can you write me a strong letter of rec?" would be the best way to go about this (or at least those workshops suggested so).
 
^Thanks, I guess I'd better take a couple of anti-anxiety meds, and head to the Professor's office. I'm so terrified they might say "No" but I guess it's a risk I have to take. If I email them, what should I say? What would I be making the appointment for?

Yeah, I'd try to relax a little. :). If they say no, you can just ask someone else.

As far as what to say in an email... I'm a big fan of honesty. Say you've been thinking about graduate school and wanted their opinion, or say that you were considering asking them to write you a letter of recommendation and wanted to discuss it with them. I feel like this leaves a better taste in someone's mouth than "oh, I wanted to discuss your research! Btw can you write this letter?"

You can always go in during office hours, but I personally think that setting up an appointment is better.

But relax! I know the process is stressful, but graduate school itself is stressful too. Professors are people and most likely won't go out of their way just to screw someone over.

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Thanks everyone for the useful comments! I don't know why but I've always been very intimidated by authority figures, especially Professors. I know they are just people but every time I try talking to one, I get extreme social anxiety. My heart races, breathing becomes controlled, palms sweat and my biggest issue is with maintaining eye contact. I'm in therapy now and trying to work out these issues. As for the letter, I've emailed 2 of my GSI's and keeping my fingers crossed that they respond positively. ^_^
 
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Yeah, I meant Graduate student instructors.... Great in that case, I'm officially screwed. I really don't have any close connections to any of my professors. The anxiety that I experienced during my undergraduate years really prevented me from going to office hours and getting to know them. Should I even bother applying?! :( Oh and what if the letter is written by a GSI but is also signed by the Professor?

I don't know about letters signed by two people. One option might be for the grad student to write or heavily add to the letter and then have their supervising professor (assuming they have one) sign it as if it were solely their letter. The professor thing is really impt though. Just don't go with a TA because they are less intimidating.

It also might make sense to talk to a prof about how competitive your application will be. I don't mean to discourage you, but I don't understand why you only have one research contact at this point. I had worked in 3 labs during undergrad and I think most people have worked in at least 2. What are your plans from now until December? Could you start working in a new lab and have that prof write a letter based on a few months with you? One my letter-writers was a prof whom I took a seminar with (15 students) and then started working in his lab senior year (I.e., had only worked there a partial semester by letter time, but I committed to working the whole year.)

Just from your brief mention of your own mental health issues, I think there are lots of things to think about here. For example, how will you handle interviews if you are intimidated by profs in a non-adversarial situation? How will you handle it if you get rejected from all the programs you apply to? Will that be too crushing to handle? Will you be able to get your anxiety under control enough to deal with the constant scrutiny of a grad program? What about when you start seeing your own patients in your second year (terrifying for most any student!) I'm certainly not trying to tell you not to apply, but maybe you need another year to prepare. Honestly, the program i went to would chew you up and spit you out (not that that is right or fair, but it is reality.)

And (in case you haven't read much on this board yet) do NOT mention your issues in your personal statement!

Best,
Dr. E
 
My initial thoughts:

1) If it's the absolute last choice, I personally would rather get a letter from a GSI than not having a letter at all. I'd realize that it would hinder my application, and I would plan to apply again next year after securing another letter writer, but there's essentially no harm in applying (other than the app fees, if those don't present a significant financial burden).

2) Are you talking about psych professors, or ALL professors, when you say you don't have other options? My application (for both cycles I went through) had one letter from a non-psych professor (the first was in English and was my supervisor when I was a student editor on the literary quarterly he oversaw, and the second was a linguistics professor after the former writer had to decline due to health problems). Psych professors/research supervisors are ideal, but in a pinch, a non-psych professor's letter is better than no letter at all.

3) As others have said, if a person doesn't feel comfortable writing you a letter (e.g., they don't feel comfortable recommending you at all, don't know you well enough to write a decent one, etc.), more often than not they'll tell you that. So if they agree, odds are in your favor that the letter will be positive. Providing them additional information, though (such as the aforementioned class grades, projects you've worked on, any student organizations/leadership roles you've been involved with, etc.), is always helpful. If you've got a CV/resume, sending it their way could help give them a more well-rounded view of you as an applicant. You could also write up a BRIEF blurb describing why you want to go to grad school, what your interests are, etc. (sort of like a mini-personal statement).
 
One thing you can be sure to do is provide whomever you approach with ample information. I believe that someone above mentioned this. But, for example, you can work out your personal statement beforehand, provide the letter-writer with your polished CV, goals, etc. I know one GSI who requires this, as well as an in-person meeting to discuss goals, prior to agreeing to write. I've written letters for people I barely knew, using this type of information (which I often have to pry out of people). You don't want to be like this student:

ME: Can you please tell me a little about your professional goals? What do you hope to achieve after law school?
STUDENT: I want to go to law school so that I can practice law.

You can also approach a prof and gamble that the TA will write you a good letter. I've done this for profs before:

PROF: Do you know this student? I couldn't pick him out of a lineup, but he wants an LOR.
ME: He was mine. I'll outline some thoughts about him and send them to you (then I write finished letter and send, telling prof to feel free to adapt as needed).

And if you approach a grad student, try to find someone good natured and friendly. A lot of grad students develop a smug Just Desserts kind of approach to these things--you want to avoid them if possible. I basically have a template and plug in particulars. I'm hyperbolic in my praise, in part because I know I'm nobody and the LOR doesn't hold much weight coming from me. Find someone like that if you can.

AND, provide them with stamped, addressed envelopes. Most of my UGs expect me to pay their postage and it's seriously annoying. Then follow up with a thank you note.

Good luck.
 
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One thing you can be sure to do is provide whomever you approach with ample information. I believe that someone above mentioned this. But, for example, you can work out your personal statement beforehand, provide the letter-writer with your polished CV, goals, etc. I know one GSI who requires this, as well as an in-person meeting to discuss goals, prior to agreeing to write. I've written letters for people I barely knew, using this type of information (which I often have to pry out of people). You don't want to be like this student:

ME: Can you please tell me a little about your professional goals? What do you hope to achieve after law school?
STUDENT: I want to go to law school so that I can practice law.

You can also approach a prof and gamble that the TA will write you a good letter. I've done this for profs before:

PROF: Do you know this student? I couldn't pick him out of a lineup, but he wants an LOR.
ME: He was mine. I'll outline some thoughts about him and send them to you (then I write finished letter and send, telling prof to feel free to adapt as needed).

And if you approach a grad student, try to find someone good natured and friendly. A lot of grad students develop a smug Just Desserts kind of approach to these things--you want to avoid them if possible. I basically have a template and plug in particulars. I'm hyperbolic in my praise, in part because I know I'm nobody and the LOR doesn't hold much weight coming from me. Find someone like that if you can.

AND, provide them with stamped, addressed envelopes. Most of my UGs expect me to pay their postage and it's seriously annoying. Then follow up with a thank you note.

Good luck.

Very good point, particularly if you go with a GSI as a letter writer. Unless the person explicitly says not to bother with postage, providing stamps and a stack of already-addressed envelopes says the writer a LOT of administrative annoyance.
 
I know in books like the Insider's guide and at workshops they have stated to have the best experience get a folder (or something similar) put all your things in it (CV, grades with that prof, transcript, etc.). Then separate out each school into an individual folder and put the forms/letter formats (if its online write out in detail the process), a brief description of the program/school and POI/research interest, your personal statement, the envelop (like others posted already), anything you'd like them to specifically mention, and other things like that.

Also, I agree with Dr. E about trying to get into a lab (especially someone whose class you did well in) even if you only work till December. The prof I mentioned earlier I am doing that with right now so I'll have as much time to show her my research skills as possible.
 
I know in books like the Insider's guide and at workshops they have stated to have the best experience get a folder (or something similar) put all your things in it (CV, grades with that prof, transcript, etc.). Then separate out each school into an individual folder and put the forms/letter formats (if its online write out in detail the process), a brief description of the program/school and POI/research interest, your personal statement, the envelop (like others posted already), anything you'd like them to specifically mention, and other things like that.

This is a good idea if recommendations are submitted via postal mail, but almost all of the schools I applied to did online recommendations only. In that case, do still organize things- I made a spreadsheet with every school, program name, and deadline and emailed my recommenders (I was not near 2 of the three when I applied, and a lot of people are more on top of email anyway). The annoying thing about online recommendations is that they send your recommender an email for each separate recommendation, so they end up getting 10, 12, whatever emails. For that reason, I'd also suggest getting your applications open, checking with your letter writers, and sending the emails all at once.

Also, I second everyone's advice to not be as nervous, although I know this is hard to control! Professors are asked to write letters all the time- it is an expected part of their job. If you've had a job where you've supervised anyone (high school student, junior coworker, etc.), imagine if they asked you for a recommendation. You'd be happy to help them achieve something, right?
 
FWIW, I only had one letter from a psychologist professor.

My other two letters were a PhD social worker (supervised clinical volunteering experience) and a master's level work supervisor (clinical setting).

Later discussions with my mentor revealed that they really only looked for red flags in letters at the grad school application level. They cared more about GRE, interest fit, and "potential" for productivity. I wrote letters for undergraduate students a lot (as instructor), but I always suggest that they get someone they worked directly with (even though I am a PhD). I did say that they are best off with a PhD person. But, there is really only so much you can say about someone who was in a class. I think what they can say is more important. but it would be a red flag if there was not any psychologist letter at all.

IMO, letters mean a lot more for later things (internship, postdoc) anyways, but you still need letters free of red flags at the grad school admission level.
 
FWIW, I only had one letter from a psychologist professor.

My other two letters were a PhD social worker (supervised clinical volunteering experience) and a master's level work supervisor (clinical setting).

Later discussions with my mentor revealed that they really only looked for red flags in letters at the grad school application level. They cared more about GRE, interest fit, and "potential" for productivity. I wrote letters for undergraduate students a lot (as instructor), but I always suggest that they get someone they worked directly with (even though I am a PhD). I did say that they are best off with a PhD person. But, there is really only so much you can say about someone who was in a class. I think what they can say is more important. but it would be a red flag if there was not any psychologist letter at all.

IMO, letters mean a lot more for later things (internship, postdoc) anyways, but you still need letters free of red flags at the grad school admission level.

What sorts of things do you think would be "red flags" in this context, Pragma? I have my own ideas, but am curious what specifically you were alluding to (<-- ugh. horrible sentence construction).
 
Later discussions with my mentor revealed that they really only looked for red flags in letters at the grad school application level. They cared more about GRE, interest fit, and "potential" for productivity.

Nothing personal, but that just makes me want to shoot myself. To care more about a general standardized test than personal letters from actual people?? I get the impression that things have changed over the years, so hopefully this is no longer true.
 
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What sorts of things do you think would be "red flags" in this context, Pragma? I have my own ideas, but am curious what specifically you were alluding to (<-- ugh. horrible sentence construction).

Anything less than glowing. Any qualifiers for positive comments.

For example, "most of the time, xx demonstrated professionalism..." or something like that.

One time I was forced to write a letter (for a mentor) for a student in the lab that I felt was very difficult to work with. I wrote it, but with some carefully filtered honesty while trying to emphasize positive points. I don't believe this student deserved a letter, but my boss tasked me with it. I feel an obligation both to the student and recipient in such a case. I encouraged this student to get other letters but they were quite entitled and pushy. Note....the letter was good enough to get them in still, so I am not a jerk.

Anecdotally, I have been told that some people write "standard" letters and "good" letters. You can tell which students they are really vouching for.
 
Nothing personal, but that just makes me want to shoot myself. To care more about a general standardized test than personal letters from actual people?? I get the impression that things have changed over the years, so hopefully this is no longer true.

Letters mean very little to me at that level. Most say just about the same thing, and anything less than "they are amazing" stands out.
 
Later discussions with my mentor revealed that they really only looked for red flags in letters at the grad school application level. They cared more about GRE, interest fit, and "potential" for productivity. I wrote letters for undergraduate students a lot (as instructor), but I always suggest that they get someone they worked directly with (even though I am a PhD). I did say that they are best off with a PhD person. But, there is really only so much you can say about someone who was in a class. I think what they can say is more important. but it would be a red flag if there was not any psychologist letter at all.

IMO, letters mean a lot more for later things (internship, postdoc) anyways, but you still need letters free of red flags at the grad school admission level.

I have a different philosophy; letters matter to me a lot for graduate school applicants. Of course, I've only been through one application cycle as a prof so far, but I pay pretty close attention to the letters. Perhaps that isn't fair of me, as it's as much about the letter writer as the student, but I'm looking at the letters for evidence of "going above and beyond," specific descriptors of intellectual curiosity and self-motivation, good people skills, and if the letter writer identifies the student's career goals (therapy, research, mix, etc.). I promise you, not all letters have this, but across the set of letters for an individual applicant, some of this does start to come out.

I wish I didn't have to care about GRE scores, but my university has some funding resources that rely on GRE scores, so they matter to some extent. Once the bar has been met, though, I try to ignore them.
 
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